Who Can Beat Trump?

[David Horn]

(09-18-2018, 11:44 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: I suspect demographics will give the majority an increasing advantage, soon enough I hope to overturn this minority-rule system. That will be the challenge of the next 10 years as the 4th turning takes its course. It may require packing the Court, since Trump is putting up a wall to progress there which is as impressive as the wall he hopes to build to keep Mexicans out.

Packing the court has been a third-rail topic forever, because once it starts it will grow with each change of party control … or so conventional wisdom believes.  I'm not so sure.  Here we are in a period where the least legitimate President ever will nominate at least two Justices -- one to a seal that should have gone to his predecessor.  And there is no logic to who and how many any President gets.  Jimmy Carter got one.  Richard Nixon got four.

Relying on luck of the draw should have balanced things this time, but it didn't.  It's obviously no longer adequate to just wait until things work out.  So yes, it's time to pack the court and push for a Constitutional Amendment that makes terms on the court a fixed time and a replacement regime that guarantees that each President gets to nominate and confirm the same number as his predecessor and successor.

[Eric the Green]

(09-19-2018, 03:52 PM)David Horn Wrote:

(09-18-2018, 11:44 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: I suspect demographics will give the majority an increasing advantage, soon enough I hope to overturn this minority-rule system. That will be the challenge of the next 10 years as the 4th turning takes its course. It may require packing the Court, since Trump is putting up a wall to progress there which is as impressive as the wall he hopes to build to keep Mexicans out.

Packing the court has been a third-rail topic forever, because once it starts it will grow with each change of party control … or so conventional wisdom believes.  I'm not so sure.  Here we are in a period where the least legitimate President ever will nominate at least two Justices -- one to a seal that should have gone to his predecessor.  And there is no logic to who and how many any President gets.  Jimmy Carter got one.  Richard Nixon got four.

Relying on luck of the draw should have balanced things this time, but it didn't.  It's obviously no longer adequate to just wait until things work out.  So yes, it's time to pack the court and push for a Constitutional Amendment that makes terms on the court a fixed time and a replacement regime that guarantees that each President gets to nominate and confirm the same number as his predecessor and successor.

Yes indeed. I hope it gets done in the 2020s, so the remnants of our regressive era can't keep holding back progress another 20 or 30 years.

[Classic-Xer]

(09-18-2018, 11:44 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: Reds have only won the popular vote for president once in the last 7 elections. Those are the elections in which the most people vote. That means that the moderate progressives are the majority in the country, not just the Democratic Party. So why did you say that?

The majority should decide things. The system has frustrated the will of the people for decades, not because the USA is a republic, but because it was designed to favor slave-holding states, which are the red states today along with the other more-rural states. So it still favors the slave-holding states today, and it enslaves us all.

The outdated electoral college favors those states, and so does the structure of the Senate. That is not a republic; it is a federal system designed at a time when it had to be designed that way to keep the slave states in the union. We also have an election system dominated by huge secret financial contributions by the wealthy. This was decided by the presidents chosen through the electoral college (and in Bush's case, by the Supreme Court), who determined the make-up of the Supreme Court that upholds this system. We also have a gerrymandered legislative election system thanks to the lack of civic engagement by young Obama supporters on Nov.2, 2010, and Republicans have instituted requirements that make it harder for poorer and non-white people to vote. None of that has anything to do with being a republic, which just means we vote for representatives.

People in red states think they are more free, but I don't think they are. They have more free enterprise, which only puts them at the mercy of the bosses. In blue states, not only in CA but in the others as well, the people benefit from a more equal society. Even Texas could turn blue in the next 10 or 20 years. Reds have nothing to fear from more regulation and taxes, since blues put these mostly upon the corporate CEOs that keep the people shackled. But in red states, the people are fooled that taxes, regulations and social programs are immoral supports for dependent people getting handouts. As work is made obsolete, this ideology that so dominates Classic Xer thinking and most Republican thinking whether led by Trump, Bush, Reagan or whoever, will become hopelessly outdated. Wealth redistribution from now on just means that the people deserve the benefits from the production by machines, not just a few wealthy investors and CEOs who own the machines.

I suspect demographics will give the majority an increasing advantage, soon enough I hope to overturn this minority-rule system. That will be the challenge of the next 10 years as the 4th turning takes its course. It may require packing the Court, since Trump is putting up a wall to progress there which is as impressive as the wall he hopes to build to keep Mexicans out.

You're need to pack courts as means to bypass the democratic process says what about actual size of the blues so called majority. If you haven't figured this out, I've been able to differentiate and I have been differentiating between the traditional Democratic base voters and the blue/green voters who are using the Democratic party. My beef is not with and has never been with the traditional Democratic voters. The Republican beef is not with them either. The beef is with the leadership of the voters who identify with the color blue.

You see, the blue leadership doesn't seem to actually believe in democracy or the US Constitution. I dunno, what would you call a system of government that's basically ruled by a group of liberals, a panel of liberal judges who aren't elected officials who have been given the power to eliminate peoples rights with the stroke of a pen. I think every Democratic voter should be viewing and following our exchanges so they understand what's at stake for them if they allow this liberal/ blue trend and the liberal/ blue dominance to continue within the Democratic party. Bob seems to bounce back & forth between traditional Democratic beliefs and rhetoric and blue beliefs and rhetoric (communist, socialist, fascist, dictatorship of some sort). Well, if that's what blues want then the blues better start preparing themselves and preparing their followers for a war with THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA that will be fought within Blue America that will be fully supported by Red America.

[Eric the Green]

(09-19-2018, 06:57 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(09-18-2018, 11:44 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(09-18-2018, 06:50 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(09-18-2018, 05:40 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(09-18-2018, 03:47 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: In the above paragraph, I might use regeneracy instead of 4T.  I might use culture instead of tradition.  I would say the 100 Days and Pearl Harbor were the two key triggers of that double 4T.  FDR in many respects acted after the regeneracies, though he did much to get the country ready before Pearl Harbor.

In modern times it might be possible to shift the middle of the country enough away from the unraveling memes towards the blue.  It might be possible to form a progressive juggernaut.  There might come something to throw tradition aside, some form of catalyst or trigger.  Trump is just the guy to do it, or the middle of the country could reject Trump while still holding firm to the unraveling memes.  I am nervous that this might happen, that they blame Trump on Trump and try to elect someone like enough to Palin or Trump to draw their attention, but sane.  They might recognize their Establishment as pawns of the rich, and Trump as incompetent, yet still chase the dream of making the old values work.

But at any rate, it will happen eventually.  The problems are real enough and must eventually be solved.  I'm not sure it will happen any time soon.

What it means, is just that it won't be easy. The regressive memes (which dominated the unravelling) are still strong, and it will be scary. The two sides are lined up for a fight, which is what this 4T is about. The odds as I see it favor success for the blue. That is my cosmic prediction, but many demographers see the same thing. Moderate progressive is the majority; the system is stacked by the regressives to keep them in power. A 4T is when walls get busted. FDR and his forces busted them last time; it will happen again. I agree with Cameron Kasky. I look ahead 10 years and I see light.

By the way, looking again at Beto's score, his rise is a scary prospect, because there's no way he could EVER win the presidency. The Democrats must choose a potential winner, or things will get very tough for the blue team. The current leaders for the nomination cannot win the general election. Many observers agree. I hope Beto wins the Senate race, but I can't even predict that now. The main thing I see is that, as he gets older, he would exhaust himself. He would push too hard and lose his caution. If he wins, he must stay in the Senate and not run for president.

Moderate progressive may well be the new majority within the Democratic party, a few blue states and most blue/green  districts. You keep thinking & speaking as if  we live in a democracy when we actually live in a republic. Like I said, I could live without California. I assume that Californians would be given a choice of whether to stay American and remain with America or identify as a Californian and accept whatever system that a group of blues decide is best for all people who remain in California. I don't care if California goes back to building roads like our ancestors did back in good old days.

Reds have only won the popular vote for president once in the last 7 elections. Those are the elections in which the most people vote. That means that the moderate progressives are the majority in the country, not just the Democratic Party. So why did you say that?

The majority should decide things. The system has frustrated the will of the people for decades, not because the USA is a republic, but because it was designed to favor slave-holding states, which are the red states today along with the other more-rural states. So it still favors the slave-holding states today, and it enslaves us all.

The outdated electoral college favors those states, and so does the structure of the Senate. That is not a republic; it is a federal system designed at a time when it had to be designed that way to keep the slave states in the union. We also have an election system dominated by huge secret financial contributions by the wealthy. This was decided by the presidents chosen through the electoral college (and in Bush's case, by the Supreme Court), who determined the make-up of the Supreme Court that upholds this system. We also have a gerrymandered legislative election system thanks to the lack of civic engagement by young Obama supporters on Nov.2, 2010, and Republicans have instituted requirements that make it harder for poorer and non-white people to vote. None of that has anything to do with being a republic, which just means we vote for representatives.

People in red states think they are more free, but I don't think they are. They have more free enterprise, which only puts them at the mercy of the bosses. In blue states, not only in CA but in the others as well, the people benefit from a more equal society. Even Texas could turn blue in the next 10 or 20 years. Reds have nothing to fear from more regulation and taxes, since blues put these mostly upon the corporate CEOs that keep the people shackled. But in red states, the people are fooled that taxes, regulations and social programs are immoral supports for dependent people getting handouts. As work is made obsolete, this ideology that so dominates Classic Xer thinking and most Republican thinking whether led by Trump, Bush, Reagan or whoever, will become hopelessly outdated. Wealth redistribution from now on just means that the people deserve the benefits from the production by machines, not just a few wealthy investors and CEOs who own the machines.

I suspect demographics will give the majority an increasing advantage, soon enough I hope to overturn this minority-rule system. That will be the challenge of the next 10 years as the 4th turning takes its course. It may require packing the Court, since Trump is putting up a wall to progress there which is as impressive as the wall he hopes to build to keep Mexicans out.

You're need to pack courts says what about actual size of the blues so called majority. If you haven't figured this out, I've been able to differentiate  between the traditional Democratic base voters and the blue/green voters. My beef is not with the traditional Democratic voters. The Republican beef is not with the traditional Democratic voter. The beef is with the leadership of the voters who identify with the color blue. You see, the blue leadership doesn't seem to actually believe in democracy or the US Constitution. I dunno, what would you call a system of government that's basically ruled by a panel of liberal judges who aren't elected officials who have the power to eliminate rights with the stroke of a pen. I think every Democratic voter should be viewing our exchanges so they understand what's at stake if they allow this liberal/ blue trend and liberal blue dominance to continue within the Democratic party. Bob seems to bounce back & forth between traditional Democratic belief and traditional blue belief (communist, socialist, fascist, dictatorship of some sort). Well, if that what blues want then the blues better start preparing themselves and preparing their followers for a war with THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.

Blue is only a color on a network TV map on election day for any state that votes Democratic, whether those Democrats are your traditional ones or not. These days, judges are being appointed by Republicans who will take away our rights to vote, speak, demonstrate, strike, have a union, have a decent environment, have rights as consumers, have rights as workers, love whom we wish without restrictions.

Democrats (all blues) don't want communism or dictatorship, and they don't want rule by bosses. You on the red side want rule by bosses. 

When the blues finally take power again after 40 years of abject regression, we will put back the assault weapons ban and other reasonable gun controls. We will raise taxes on the wealthy. We will cut unnecessary spending, especially on war, but in all areas, and balance the budget. We will require energy and car companies and all industries to put out products that do not harm the environment and the climate we depend on. We will ensure net neutrality. We will protect and encourage unions and consumer rights. We will prevent the banking speculators from ruining our economy, and put financial criminals in jail. We will enforce and extend anti-trust laws and prevent big mergers not in the peoples' interest. We will stop unnecessary oil wars. We will protect women's rights and LBGTQ rights and make sure all qualified citizens can vote. We will restore real democracy from the moneyed interests and the gerrymanders. We will make sure police respect black lives, and correct abuses in the criminal justice system that put too many innocent people in prison. We will protect social security and ensure an adequate welfare system that protects us from capricious bosses that fire people for no reason. We will raise the minimum wage, restore overtime and shorter working hours, and make sure that all people benefit from the machines that do our work, not just the owners of the machines. We will make sure corporate boards have worker and community representatives with real power. We will pack and reform the courts if necessary to achieve these aims, because the courts do not represent and were not appointed by the majority of Americans, but by an outdated system of minority rule. We will create a fair trade world economy. We will make our country truly great, instead of the laughing stock of the world as it is now. If you reds want a war over all of that, then that's your choice. We will defeat you.

[Bob Butler 54]

(09-19-2018, 06:57 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: You're need to pack courts as means to bypass the democratic process says what about actual size of the blues so called majority. If you haven't figured this out, I've been able to differentiate and I have been differentiating between the traditional Democratic base voters and the blue/green voters who are using the Democratic party. My beef is not with and has never been with the traditional Democratic voters. The Republican beef is not with them either. The beef is with the leadership of the voters who identify with the color blue.

You see, the blue leadership doesn't seem to actually believe in democracy or the US Constitution. I dunno, what would you call a system of government that's basically ruled by a group of liberals, a panel of liberal judges who aren't elected officials who have been given the power to eliminate peoples rights with the stroke of a pen. I think every Democratic voter should be viewing and following our exchanges so they understand what's at stake for them if they allow this liberal/ blue trend and the liberal/ blue dominance to continue within the Democratic party. Bob seems to bounce back & forth between traditional Democratic beliefs and rhetoric and blue beliefs and rhetoric (communist, socialist, fascist, dictatorship of some sort). Well, if that's what blues want then the blues better start preparing themselves and preparing their followers for a war with THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA that will be fought within Blue America that will be fully supported by Red America.

During the Jim Crow era, the Supreme Court nullified the entire Bill of Rights.  Thurgood Marshall restored them one at a time (except the Jim Crow interpretation of the 2nd) in the mid 20th Century.  Anyway, in any given era, a loaded court tries to throw away the Constitution in favor of their own often slanted theory of the moment.  It would be really hard to avoid the conservative Jim Crow court as the worst example, but it happens constantly.  Early on, FDR could hardly do anything.  The court, loaded in the late Gilded Age, kept saying no.  Later, as he kept being elected, the court gave him powers to regulate the economy that the Founding Fathers had never dreamed of.  Later, liberal courts started to invent rights that they thought ought to exist.  As much as I am pleased to have Roe v Wade the law of the land, I doubt the Founding Fathers intended to create a right to be a pervert from the colonial perspective.  The perverts would have been lucky to avoid tar, feathers, and a ride out of town.

Anyway, as much as I am into true Enlightenment rights, they should have passed constitutional amendments rather than write absurd precedents from the judicial bench.  I am one of the few progressives who mourned the loss of Saclia's perspective, that of pure interpretation of what was written clearly enough.  I just condemn many eras of legislating from the bench by both progressives and conservatives, not recent examples only.

Again, I can trivially tell the difference between communists, fascist, dictator like policies, etc... and both Republicans and Democrats.  I am tired of the straw man and stereotypes.  It is easy to pretend one cannot tell a Democrat from a communist, a Republican from a fascist.  One can, and I do.  You are supposed to be stubborn, not stupid.  Act it.

I am curious as to what rights you think have been eliminated by Democrats.  I hardly think it impossible given the lack of respect for the Constitution over the years, but I see them as more likely to invent a right than destroy one lately.  Anyway, if you are going to rant, give some examples.  The extra degree of indirection and lack of saying what you mean clearly is usually covering something like the supposed right to be a racist, or the supposed right to make religious doctrine law.  Which parts of the Bill of Rights have the Democrats aimed at, save the Second?  Again, the Jim Crow racists, conservatives, came up with that one at the end of the reconstruction.  True, the conservatives were Democrats at that time.  Both parties had progressive and conservative wings.  It wasn't until LBJ and the Southern Strategy that the current alignment set in.

[Classic-Xer]

(09-19-2018, 07:19 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: Blue is only a color on a network TV map on election day for any state that votes Democratic, whether those Democrats are your traditional ones or not. These days, judges are being appointed by Republicans who will take away our rights to vote, speak, demonstrate, strike, have a union, have a decent environment, have rights as consumers, have rights as workers, love whom we wish without restrictions.

Democrats (all blues) don't want communism or dictatorship, and they don't want rule by bosses. You on the red side want rule by bosses. 

When the blues finally take power again after 40 years of abject regression, we will put back the assault weapons ban and other reasonable gun controls. We will raise taxes on the wealthy. We will cut unnecessary spending, especially on war, but in all areas, and balance the budget. We will require energy and car companies and all industries to put out products that do not harm the environment and the climate we depend on. We will ensure net neutrality. We will protect and encourage unions and consumer rights. We will prevent the banking speculators from ruining our economy, and put financial criminals in jail. We will enforce and extend anti-trust laws and prevent big mergers not in the peoples' interest. We will stop unnecessary oil wars. We will protect women's rights and LBGTQ rights and make sure all qualified citizens can vote. We will restore real democracy from the moneyed interests and the gerrymanders. We will make sure police respect black lives, and correct abuses in the criminal justice system that put too many innocent people in prison. We will protect social security and ensure an adequate welfare system that protects us from capricious bosses that fire people for no reason. We will raise the minimum wage, restore overtime and shorter working hours, and make sure that all people benefit from the machines that do our work, not just the owners of the machines. We will make sure corporate boards have worker and community representatives with real power. We will pack and reform the courts if necessary to achieve these aims, because the courts do not represent and were not appointed by the majority of Americans, but by an outdated system of minority rule. We will create a fair trade world economy. We will make our country truly great, instead of the laughing stock of the world as it is now. If you reds want a war over all of that, then that's your choice. We will defeat you.

The blues have never really had power over anyone other than the poor who don't have the freedom to do anything but vote for a blue and hope for the best as far as getting something back in return for their voting effort like a higher minimum wage for the jobs that they tend to do for a living. A higher wage for a job that will most likely no longer exist after the law is passed. The blues are going have to figure out a way to do something about the freedom to say fuck that, I'm closing the doors and accepting the offer previously made by group of multi millionaires and getting out of this fucked up place. The blues may claim that a communist like system isn't what they want. However, a communist like system is what they need to control our freedoms. I've always said, your biggest issue is our freedoms.

[pbrower2a]

(09-20-2018, 01:07 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(09-19-2018, 07:19 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: Blue is only a color on a network TV map on election day for any state that votes Democratic, whether those Democrats are your traditional ones or not. These days, judges are being appointed by Republicans who will take away our rights to vote, speak, demonstrate, strike, have a union, have a decent environment, have rights as consumers, have rights as workers, love whom we wish without restrictions.

Democrats (all blues) don't want communism or dictatorship, and they don't want rule by bosses. You on the red side want rule by bosses. 

When the blues finally take power again after 40 years of abject regression, we will put back the assault weapons ban and other reasonable gun controls. We will raise taxes on the wealthy. We will cut unnecessary spending, especially on war, but in all areas, and balance the budget. We will require energy and car companies and all industries to put out products that do not harm the environment and the climate we depend on. We will ensure net neutrality. We will protect and encourage unions and consumer rights. We will prevent the banking speculators from ruining our economy, and put financial criminals in jail. We will enforce and extend anti-trust laws and prevent big mergers not in the peoples' interest. We will stop unnecessary oil wars. We will protect women's rights and LBGTQ rights and make sure all qualified citizens can vote. We will restore real democracy from the moneyed interests and the gerrymanders. We will make sure police respect black lives, and correct abuses in the criminal justice system that put too many innocent people in prison. We will protect social security and ensure an adequate welfare system that protects us from capricious bosses that fire people for no reason. We will raise the minimum wage, restore overtime and shorter working hours, and make sure that all people benefit from the machines that do our work, not just the owners of the machines. We will make sure corporate boards have worker and community representatives with real power. We will pack and reform the courts if necessary to achieve these aims, because the courts do not represent and were not appointed by the majority of Americans, but by an outdated system of minority rule. We will create a fair trade world economy. We will make our country truly great, instead of the laughing stock of the world as it is now. If you reds want a war over all of that, then that's your choice. We will defeat you.

The blues have never really had power over anyone other than the poor who don't have the freedom to do anything but vote for a blue and hope for the best as far as getting something back in return for their voting effort like a higher minimum wage for the jobs that they tend to do for a living. A higher wage for a job that will most likely no longer exist after the law is passed. The blues are going have to figure out a way to do something about the freedom to say fuck that, I'm closing the doors and accepting the offer previously made by group of multi millionaires and getting out of this fucked up place. The blues may claim that a communist like system isn't what they want. However, a communist like system is what they need to control our freedoms. I've always said, your biggest issue is our freedoms.

Blues want to give the poor more human dignity through better education and higher wages. Of course many of the poor are disabled or are victims of abuse (as by spouses who got the best of the economic situation while divesting themselves of a victim).

Do poor people really want to be sweated, basically worked harder and longer for less so that the Master Class can make more, as in the time that Donald Trump thinks was far greater than what we now have? Self-interest is a legitimate concern for all in a democracy, and not only for economic elites.

The Right Libertarians that you seem to love fail to recognize that hunger, filth, exposure, exploitation, illness, and ignorance are not freedom. The technological wonders of our time are inconsistent with extreme poverty, let alone peonage.

The prerogative to exploit, humiliate, and subjugate those who endure disadvantages not of their choosing is freedom for an elite but tyranny to the rest. You have no problem with an economic order that has fear as its sole motivator. You fail to recognize the consequences of your core beliefs should they become the official agenda. Your ideology would create hordes of people with no stake in the system, the sorts who would think a Lenin, Mao, Tito, or Castro their wish-fulfillment when the opportunity arises in the chaos resulting from the pervasive failure of institutions in war or economic collapse.



Yeah, the good old days -- when it was great to be around as long as one didn't have to do real work. Except that in those days most people were farm, mine, or factory laborers, and their lives were miserable.That is not my idea of American greatness.

[pbrower2a]

And this is how life was in that alleged time of greatness:





Such was a wonderful time, so long as one did not have to do real work.

[Bob Butler 54]

(09-20-2018, 01:07 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: The blues may claim that a communist like system isn't what they want. However, a communist like system is what they need to control our freedoms. I've always said, your biggest issue is our freedoms.

Is that all you have?  A straw man?  Again, it is easy to tell a Democrat from a communist, or a Republican from a fascist.  For example, I am not a communist.  I view both the communists and the fascist as outgrowths of Agricultural Age authoritarian government, attempts to combine Industrial Age industry and technology with absolute power methods of ruling.  I believe there must be checks and balances on everything, including and especially offers from an elite class.

Are you stupid?  

Again, what freedoms are you claiming the blues are threatening?  The 'right' to offer slave wages?  The 'right' to be a  racist?  The 'right' to have the government enforce religious doctrines?  What amendments of the Bill of Rights have been threatened?

[Eric the Green]

(09-20-2018, 01:07 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(09-19-2018, 07:19 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: Blue is only a color on a network TV map on election day for any state that votes Democratic, whether those Democrats are your traditional ones or not. These days, judges are being appointed by Republicans who will take away our rights to vote, speak, demonstrate, strike, have a union, have a decent environment, have rights as consumers, have rights as workers, love whom we wish without restrictions.

Democrats (all blues) don't want communism or dictatorship, and they don't want rule by bosses. You on the red side want rule by bosses. 

When the blues finally take power again after 40 years of abject regression, we will put back the assault weapons ban and other reasonable gun controls. We will raise taxes on the wealthy. We will cut unnecessary spending, especially on war, but in all areas, and balance the budget. We will require energy and car companies and all industries to put out products that do not harm the environment and the climate we depend on. We will ensure net neutrality. We will protect and encourage unions and consumer rights. We will prevent the banking speculators from ruining our economy, and put financial criminals in jail. We will enforce and extend anti-trust laws and prevent big mergers not in the peoples' interest. We will stop unnecessary oil wars. We will protect women's rights and LBGTQ rights and make sure all qualified citizens can vote. We will restore real democracy from the moneyed interests and the gerrymanders. We will make sure police respect black lives, and correct abuses in the criminal justice system that put too many innocent people in prison. We will protect social security and ensure an adequate welfare system that protects us from capricious bosses that fire people for no reason. We will raise the minimum wage, restore overtime and shorter working hours, and make sure that all people benefit from the machines that do our work, not just the owners of the machines. We will make sure corporate boards have worker and community representatives with real power. We will pack and reform the courts if necessary to achieve these aims, because the courts do not represent and were not appointed by the majority of Americans, but by an outdated system of minority rule. We will create a fair trade world economy. We will make our country truly great, instead of the laughing stock of the world as it is now. If you reds want a war over all of that, then that's your choice. We will defeat you.

The blues have never really had power over anyone other than the poor who don't have the freedom to do anything but vote for a blue and hope for the best as far as getting something back in return for their voting effort like a higher minimum wage for the jobs that they tend to do for a living. A higher wage for a job that will most likely no longer exist after the law is passed. The blues are going have to figure out a way to do something about the freedom to say fuck that, I'm closing the doors and accepting the offer previously made by group of multi millionaires and getting out of this fucked up place. The blues may claim that a communist like system isn't what they want. However, a communist like system is what they need to control our freedoms. I've always said, your biggest issue is our freedoms.

But your freedoms amount basically to two things that us "communist like" liberal/progressives want to "control": your guns and your tax money. "Freedom" to your side amounts to "free enterprise," and the freedom to shoot people without restriction.

But guns should be controlled and restricted, because they are dangerous if in the wrong hands, and anyone's hands can go wrong.

And free enterprise needs to be controlled and restricted, because bosses are often greedy and capricious and may not look out for those whom (s)he deals with. Big business cannot be trusted to behave.

As long as business people do what they should do anyway voluntarily, though, they should have no problem with a reasonably fair and liberal government. 

That's not to say that government can't run amok, get corrupt, and/or raise taxes too high, but that's why liberals want real democracy, so the people can rein it in when it goes to excess too.

Business people should pay a fair living wage to employees. If they do, they have nothing to fear from liberal minimum wage laws, and they don't need to propagate the lie that higher wages destroys jobs. They don't; they put spending money in workers pockets, and that's good for business. Business people that provide safe and working products, safe working conditions and safe effects on the environment, have little reason to be concerned that Uncle Sam will restrict them.

And as long as "non-blues" don't react fanatically and/or violently to prudent gun control, they have little grounds for fear that liberal commies will take away their guns or their gun rights in the USA.

Quote:Again, what freedoms are you claiming the blues are threatening. The 'right' to offer slave wages? The 'right' to be a racist? The 'right' to have the government enforce religious doctrines? What amendments of the Bill of Rights have been threatened?

Good questions too.

[Ragnarök_62]

(09-20-2018, 06:36 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: And this is how life was in that alleged time of greatness:





Such was a wonderful time, so long as one did not have to do real work.

That's kind of old fashioned.  Here's an updated pic of the end result of global captialism run amok.



welcome to the Anthropocene man. Those off balance sheet externalizes start to add up leading to the ultimate bankruptcy.

[Ragnarök_62]

(09-20-2018, 01:07 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(09-19-2018, 07:19 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: Blue is only a color on a network TV map on election day for any state that votes Democratic, whether those Democrats are your traditional ones or not. These days, judges are being appointed by Republicans who will take away our rights to vote, speak, demonstrate, strike, have a union, have a decent environment, have rights as consumers, have rights as workers, love whom we wish without restrictions.

Democrats (all blues) don't want communism or dictatorship, and they don't want rule by bosses. You on the red side want rule by bosses. 

When the blues finally take power again after 40 years of abject regression, we will put back the assault weapons ban and other reasonable gun controls. We will raise taxes on the wealthy. We will cut unnecessary spending, especially on war, but in all areas, and balance the budget. We will require energy and car companies and all industries to put out products that do not harm the environment and the climate we depend on. We will ensure net neutrality. We will protect and encourage unions and consumer rights. We will prevent the banking speculators from ruining our economy, and put financial criminals in jail. We will enforce and extend anti-trust laws and prevent big mergers not in the peoples' interest. We will stop unnecessary oil wars. We will protect women's rights and LBGTQ rights and make sure all qualified citizens can vote. We will restore real democracy from the moneyed interests and the gerrymanders. We will make sure police respect black lives, and correct abuses in the criminal justice system that put too many innocent people in prison. We will protect social security and ensure an adequate welfare system that protects us from capricious bosses that fire people for no reason. We will raise the minimum wage, restore overtime and shorter working hours, and make sure that all people benefit from the machines that do our work, not just the owners of the machines. We will make sure corporate boards have worker and community representatives with real power. We will pack and reform the courts if necessary to achieve these aims, because the courts do not represent and were not appointed by the majority of Americans, but by an outdated system of minority rule. We will create a fair trade world economy. We will make our country truly great, instead of the laughing stock of the world as it is now. If you reds want a war over all of that, then that's your choice. We will defeat you.

The blues have never really had power over anyone other than the poor who don't have the freedom to do anything but vote for a blue and hope for the best as far as getting something back in return for their voting effort like a higher minimum wage for the jobs that they tend to do for a living. A higher wage for a job that will most likely no longer exist after the law is passed. The blues are going have to figure out a way to do something about the freedom to say fuck that, I'm closing the doors and accepting the offer previously made by group of multi millionaires and getting out of this fucked up place. The blues may claim that a communist like system isn't what they want. However, a communist like system is what they need to control our freedoms. I've always said, your biggest issue is our freedoms.

Freedoms?  I want nothing to do with the freedom to be a wage slave for that fucking shithead Bezos.
https://www.salon.com/2014/03/16/amazons..._this_way/

His sweatshops are in dire need of molotov cocktails!  Just burn 'em down.

[Cynic Hero '86]

What a bunch of globalist tyrants posting here. We (the American people) want our rights back. Do-gooders need to understand that they need to ask the citizenry for their permission and be granted consent in order to implement their ideals.

[Classic-Xer]

(09-19-2018, 11:48 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: Again, I can trivially tell the difference between communists, fascist, dictator like policies, etc... and both Republicans and Democrats.  I am tired of the straw man and stereotypes.  It is easy to pretend one cannot tell a Democrat from a communist, a Republican from a fascist.  One can, and I do.  You are supposed to be stubborn, not stupid.  Act it.

I am curious as to what rights you think have been eliminated by Democrats.  I hardly think it impossible given the lack of respect for the Constitution over the years, but I see them as more likely to invent a right than destroy one lately.  Anyway, if you are going to rant, give some examples.  The extra degree of indirection and lack of saying what you mean clearly is usually covering something like the supposed right to be a racist, or the supposed right to make religious doctrine law.  Which parts of the Bill of Rights have the Democrats aimed at, save the Second?  Again, the Jim Crow racists, conservatives, came up with that one at the end of the reconstruction.  True, the conservatives were Democrats at that time.  Both parties had progressive and conservative wings.  It wasn't until LBJ and the Southern Strategy that the current alignment set in.

Dude, if you don't like to be associated with the views and beliefs of socialists and communists and so forth then you shouldn't be hanging around with them and casually supporting their views and beliefs and using them as much as you do and have been doing since I first laid eyes on you and began reading and deciphering your posts and learning more about you. Right now, I view you as a borderline blue Democrat because you spend a lot of time and efforts bouncing between traditional Democratic views that you probably hold dearly and the blue views you have to share and doing your best to remain appealing to both.

I don't fling terms around like your blues. I don't use race as an excuse like your blues. If wondering what's going on, I'm speaking to a person (YOU) who I view as Democrat and asking him what the Democrats are going to do about the blues who are PISSING OFF, TURNING OFF, ANTAGOZING AND SERIOUSLY AGGRAVATING AT LEAST HALF OF THE COUNTRY THAT WE ARE AWARE OF AT THIS TIME WHO VOTED IN THE LAST ELECTION.

Like I said, I have no interest in the Democratic party whatsoever. I'd vote for a real clown instead of one of their clowns. As I've told Democratic voters to their face, the Democrats of today aren't even in the mix as far as my vote goes which they seem to be able to accept and understand more and more these days.

[Classic-Xer]

(09-20-2018, 04:37 PM)Ragnarök_62 Wrote:

(09-20-2018, 01:07 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(09-19-2018, 07:19 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: Blue is only a color on a network TV map on election day for any state that votes Democratic, whether those Democrats are your traditional ones or not. These days, judges are being appointed by Republicans who will take away our rights to vote, speak, demonstrate, strike, have a union, have a decent environment, have rights as consumers, have rights as workers, love whom we wish without restrictions.

Democrats (all blues) don't want communism or dictatorship, and they don't want rule by bosses. You on the red side want rule by bosses. 

When the blues finally take power again after 40 years of abject regression, we will put back the assault weapons ban and other reasonable gun controls. We will raise taxes on the wealthy. We will cut unnecessary spending, especially on war, but in all areas, and balance the budget. We will require energy and car companies and all industries to put out products that do not harm the environment and the climate we depend on. We will ensure net neutrality. We will protect and encourage unions and consumer rights. We will prevent the banking speculators from ruining our economy, and put financial criminals in jail. We will enforce and extend anti-trust laws and prevent big mergers not in the peoples' interest. We will stop unnecessary oil wars. We will protect women's rights and LBGTQ rights and make sure all qualified citizens can vote. We will restore real democracy from the moneyed interests and the gerrymanders. We will make sure police respect black lives, and correct abuses in the criminal justice system that put too many innocent people in prison. We will protect social security and ensure an adequate welfare system that protects us from capricious bosses that fire people for no reason. We will raise the minimum wage, restore overtime and shorter working hours, and make sure that all people benefit from the machines that do our work, not just the owners of the machines. We will make sure corporate boards have worker and community representatives with real power. We will pack and reform the courts if necessary to achieve these aims, because the courts do not represent and were not appointed by the majority of Americans, but by an outdated system of minority rule. We will create a fair trade world economy. We will make our country truly great, instead of the laughing stock of the world as it is now. If you reds want a war over all of that, then that's your choice. We will defeat you.

The blues have never really had power over anyone other than the poor who don't have the freedom to do anything but vote for a blue and hope for the best as far as getting something back in return for their voting effort like a higher minimum wage for the jobs that they tend to do for a living. A higher wage for a job that will most likely no longer exist after the law is passed. The blues are going have to figure out a way to do something about the freedom to say fuck that, I'm closing the doors and accepting the offer previously made by group of multi millionaires and getting out of this fucked up place. The blues may claim that a communist like system isn't what they want. However, a communist like system is what they need to control our freedoms. I've always said, your biggest issue is our freedoms.

Freedoms?  I want nothing to do with the freedom to be a wage slave for that fucking shithead Bezos.
https://www.salon.com/2014/03/16/amazons..._this_way/

His sweatshops are in dire need of molotov cocktails!  Just burn 'em down.

Well, that's your freedom as we say.

[Ragnarök_62]

(09-20-2018, 06:44 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(09-20-2018, 04:37 PM)Ragnarök_62 Wrote:

(09-20-2018, 01:07 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(09-19-2018, 07:19 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: Blue is only a color on a network TV map on election day for any state that votes Democratic, whether those Democrats are your traditional ones or not. These days, judges are being appointed by Republicans who will take away our rights to vote, speak, demonstrate, strike, have a union, have a decent environment, have rights as consumers, have rights as workers, love whom we wish without restrictions.

Democrats (all blues) don't want communism or dictatorship, and they don't want rule by bosses. You on the red side want rule by bosses. 

When the blues finally take power again after 40 years of abject regression, we will put back the assault weapons ban and other reasonable gun controls. We will raise taxes on the wealthy. We will cut unnecessary spending, especially on war, but in all areas, and balance the budget. We will require energy and car companies and all industries to put out products that do not harm the environment and the climate we depend on. We will ensure net neutrality. We will protect and encourage unions and consumer rights. We will prevent the banking speculators from ruining our economy, and put financial criminals in jail. We will enforce and extend anti-trust laws and prevent big mergers not in the peoples' interest. We will stop unnecessary oil wars. We will protect women's rights and LBGTQ rights and make sure all qualified citizens can vote. We will restore real democracy from the moneyed interests and the gerrymanders. We will make sure police respect black lives, and correct abuses in the criminal justice system that put too many innocent people in prison. We will protect social security and ensure an adequate welfare system that protects us from capricious bosses that fire people for no reason. We will raise the minimum wage, restore overtime and shorter working hours, and make sure that all people benefit from the machines that do our work, not just the owners of the machines. We will make sure corporate boards have worker and community representatives with real power. We will pack and reform the courts if necessary to achieve these aims, because the courts do not represent and were not appointed by the majority of Americans, but by an outdated system of minority rule. We will create a fair trade world economy. We will make our country truly great, instead of the laughing stock of the world as it is now. If you reds want a war over all of that, then that's your choice. We will defeat you.

The blues have never really had power over anyone other than the poor who don't have the freedom to do anything but vote for a blue and hope for the best as far as getting something back in return for their voting effort like a higher minimum wage for the jobs that they tend to do for a living. A higher wage for a job that will most likely no longer exist after the law is passed. The blues are going have to figure out a way to do something about the freedom to say fuck that, I'm closing the doors and accepting the offer previously made by group of multi millionaires and getting out of this fucked up place. The blues may claim that a communist like system isn't what they want. However, a communist like system is what they need to control our freedoms. I've always said, your biggest issue is our freedoms.

Freedoms?  I want nothing to do with the freedom to be a wage slave for that fucking shithead Bezos.
https://www.salon.com/2014/03/16/amazons..._this_way/

His sweatshops are in dire need of molotov cocktails!  Just burn 'em down.

Well, that's your freedom as we say.

Would you like to work for Bezos or for that matter Walfart?  I also want the freedom to do weed. Is that OK with you? Sessions is such a square you know.

As for the subject matter of this thread, who can beat Trump.  To me Trump presents a mixed record.  I fully support him for bricking free trade with tariffs. He just needs to do that some more and slap some tariffs on electronic crap like Ishits. I also like his position on immigration. More immigrants = lower wages. Finally, I like it that he's bricking the "Liberal World Order." His positions on taxes, health care, and being in bed with fundies and Israel sucks though.

Democrats need to chuck SJW's and open borders.  They also need to stop with the Russia,Russia,Russia stuff. Israel and multinationals interfere in our elections far more than Russia. Democrats also need to sign up for single payer health care and higher taxes on fat cats. IOW, Bernie Sanders is the way to go.  Stupid Hillary cheated him out, so shame, shame on the DNC for doing shat crap.

[Classic-Xer]

(09-20-2018, 08:33 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(09-20-2018, 01:07 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: The blues may claim that a communist like system isn't what they want. However, a communist like system is what they need to control our freedoms. I've always said, your biggest issue is our freedoms.

Is that all you have?  A straw man?  Again, it is easy to tell a Democrat from a communist, or a Republican from a fascist.  For example, I am not a communist.  I view both the communists and the fascist as outgrowths of Agricultural Age authoritarian government, attempts to combine Industrial Age industry and technology with absolute power methods of ruling.  I believe there must be checks and balances on everything, including and especially offers from an elite class.

Are you stupid?  

Again, what freedoms are you claiming the blues are threatening?  The 'right' to offer slave wages?  The 'right' to be a  racist?  The 'right' to have the government enforce religious doctrines?  What amendments of the Bill of Rights have been threatened?

Are you stupid? What are you doing coming at me with the right to offer slave wages, the right to be a racist and the right to have the government enforce religious doctrines? Are you a Democrat or a blue? Well, you just came at me like a blue. So, now you're a blue to me which means you're out of the loop as far as receiving acknowledgement and displays of respect like I do with most Democrats these days. As I've mention to you before, you show me signs of advancement in understanding, you show me signs of progress then you regress by showing my signs of being a blue. Like I said, this isn't about Democrats anymore, the focus has shift and this is going to be all about the blues now. How long will be be until the Republican lines and Republican influence extends to your neighboring communities? If you want government to move away from enforcing religious doctrines like thou shall not kill, thou shall not steal, thou shall not rape and the ones relating to moral obligations relating to caring for the poor it's OK with me. I'm OK with natural law being the law of the land and the ways associated with nature being the ways of the land that we will live by. You should be OK with it too because those are what we'll be living by from there on.

Bob, I ain't a self righteous Christian who is trying to earn their way to heaven by stopping all of society from doing whatever it is that they view as bad things and by saving soles of people that they view as bad from damnation and by stopping activities going on within society that they believe will result in the damnation of the entire society as means to impress their savior Jesus or in the name of Jesus like the ones you seem to despise or a bleeding heart liberal who uses known religious doctrine and the moral obligations associated for their own interests even though they don't actually believe in Jesus or God which whom I despise. If love thy neighbor doesn't really fly with most Christians these days, I don't why liberals believe it's going to fly with the rest of us.

[Bob Butler 54]

(09-20-2018, 06:31 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Dude, if you don't like to be associated with the views and beliefs of socialists and communists and so forth then you shouldn't be hanging around with them and casually supporting their views and beliefs and using them as much as you do and have been doing since I first laid eyes on you and began reading and deciphering your posts and learning more about you. Right now, I view you as a borderline blue Democrat because you spend a lot of time and efforts bouncing between traditional Democratic views that you probably hold dearly and the blue views you have to share and doing your best to remain appealing to both.

I don't fling terms around like your blues. I don't use race as an excuse like your blues. If wondering what's going on, I'm speaking to a person (YOU) who I view as Democrat and asking him what the Democrats are going to do about the blues who are PISSING OFF, TURNING OFF, ANTAGOZING AND SERIOUSLY AGGRAVATING AT LEAST HALF OF THE COUNTRY THAT WE ARE AWARE OF AT THIS TIME WHO VOTED IN THE LAST ELECTION.

Well, I think you lie about flinging terms, if you count your idea of socialist and communists as terms.  You use them as much as the next guy, though you are refusing to define what you mean by them.

'Socialist' is redefined by a lot of people, and could mean a bunch of things.  That makes the term a poor one to use.  I would as soon avoid it.

I might be a half Maxist, but definitely not a communist.

Marx was correct in saying a capitalist elite is apt to create an imbalance of wealth in their own favor.  

Marx was in many ways wrong.  He claimed this imbalance of wealth would inevitably lead to a violent revolution.  That has proven one of his more incorrect predictions.  The capital elites have lessened the imbalance of wealth just enough such that it is in many places more cost effective to support it than to fight it.  The elites are in enough of a position of control to relieve the most obvious threat against them.  There will be, in my opinion, no revolution.

The communists lost the Cold War in major part as autocratic government is inferior to democracy.  The communist party would become the new elite class, invariably tried to create an imbalance of wealth in its favor, and lost to more competitive systems, including democracy and capitalism.  That is water under the bridge, a done deal, decided, in the past.  Even Russia and China, autocratic champions, use a strong element of capitalism these days.  There are capitalist elites even there.  There are no more relevant pure communists.

And yet, the red - blue divide is in part a class struggle between those out to maximize division of wealth on the red side, and reduce it on the blue side.  The establishment wings of both sides are in the elites pocket, but more the red side.  The People side would reduce the imbalance of wealth, or at least I would.   I can applaud that the red side's rejection of their establishment, but they could not find anyone other than the incompetent, narcissistic liar Trump to try to implement their obsolete ideals.  I do not anticipate their finding anyone much better.  Meanwhile, the blue side has yet to step away from their establishment cleanly.

Are you correctly interpreting and projecting what the blues actually believe?  No.  You cannot move past the ad hominem and straw man level of false stereotypes.  You can not listen.

Are the progressives paying attention to the middle of the country?  Not really.  What you said in all caps is true.  The progressives see the middle of the country as a lost cause.  Many of them (cough cough Eric) see resolution only through conflict.  I see the Industrial Age as over, as the patterns valid then being much less relevant now, as things more likely resolved though politics than through violence.  The good ideas of the middle of the country should be preempted.  The bad, rejected.  The needs to solve the real problems such as borrow and spend economics, global warming and racism are coming to a boil.

I am also seeing the red using the old compromises that brought the slaveholders into the Union.  The Senate gives power to the small states, as does the electoral college.  There is the more modern problem of gerrymandering.  The capitalist elites and the red have an advantage over the People.

For a time.  The middle of the country is stubborn, but not stupid, at least most of them.  The elites are small.  They have the money, but they cannot fool all of the People all of the time.  Eventually, the needs of the many will overwhelm the gluttony of the few.

I have noted your inability to answer what 'rights' specifically the Democrats are putting at risk.  You fling terms around, refuse to define them, and swim in stereotypes.  Well, put up or shut up.

[Classic-Xer]

(09-20-2018, 10:15 PM)Ragnarök_62 Wrote: Would you like to work for Bezos or for that matter Walfart?  I also want the freedom to do weed. Is that OK with you? Sessions is such a square you know.

As for the subject matter of this thread, who can beat Trump.  To me Trump presents a mixed record.  I fully support him for bricking free trade with tariffs. He just needs to do that some more and slap some tariffs on electronic crap like Ishits. I also like his position on immigration. More immigrants = lower wages. Finally, I like it that he's bricking the "Liberal World Order." His positions on taxes, health care, and being in bed with fundies and Israel sucks though.

Democrats need to chuck SJW's and open borders.  They also need to stop with the Russia,Russia,Russia stuff. Israel and multinationals interfere in our elections far more than Russia. Democrats also need to sign up for single payer health care and higher taxes on fat cats. IOW, Bernie Sanders is the way to go.  Stupid Hillary cheated him out, so shame, shame on the DNC for doing shat crap.

Nope, and I don't because I have the freedom to find work else where. Has the law ever stopped you from doing weed? You pretty much free to do weed right now. I don't know any weed smokers who seem overly concerned about being arrested by the cops.

[Ragnarök_62]

(09-21-2018, 01:01 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(09-20-2018, 10:15 PM)Ragnarök_62 Wrote: Would you like to work for Bezos or for that matter Walfart?  I also want the freedom to do weed. Is that OK with you? Sessions is such a square you know.

As for the subject matter of this thread, who can beat Trump.  To me Trump presents a mixed record.  I fully support him for bricking free trade with tariffs. He just needs to do that some more and slap some tariffs on electronic crap like Ishits. I also like his position on immigration. More immigrants = lower wages. Finally, I like it that he's bricking the "Liberal World Order." His positions on taxes, health care, and being in bed with fundies and Israel sucks though.

Democrats need to chuck SJW's and open borders.  They also need to stop with the Russia,Russia,Russia stuff. Israel and multinationals interfere in our elections far more than Russia. Democrats also need to sign up for single payer health care and higher taxes on fat cats. IOW, Bernie Sanders is the way to go.  Stupid Hillary cheated him out, so shame, shame on the DNC for doing shat crap.

Nope, and I don't because I have the freedom to find work else where. Has the law ever stopped you from doing weed? You pretty much free to do weed right now. I don't know any weed smokers who seem overly concerned about being arrested by the cops.

I suppose your lucky, huh?   Where I live, the only options are fast foodie joints , a packing plant, and Walfart. I'm too old to work at the packing plant because the Republicans scrapped all of worker safety laws and also allow the chicken pluck lines to run too fast for not young folks like me. There are no jobs that aren't minimum wage here, so there you go. I support fight for 15.  Now, think of this. There is an economic power imbalance between a person and a corporation. Since there aren't unions, an individual is at a power disadvantage. That means the government needs to step it up and protect workers against predatory capitalist.  It just sucks green donkey dicks that so many Americans are deluded in the false religion of free enterprise.  Multinationals don't care about anything but profit.  That means everything [people, the environment, nation states, animals, etc. ] are sacrificed on the alter of unrestrained capitalism. So , you see, the end game is this.  Except for the elites, everyone will eventually be serfs living on an increasingly destroyed planet. The end comes with collapse and a new dark age.  Don't know when it happens, but come it will.  When the dark age arrives, that's when the elites will have no place to run, no place to hide. Then, their collective heads will be foisted upon pikes.