Who Can Beat Trump?

[Classic-Xer]

(09-22-2018, 09:08 AM)David Horn Wrote: First, Nixon was never impeached.  Instead, a contingent of senior GOP Senators paid him a visit, explained how likely a conviction was (almost certain) and he resigned.  LBJ played Texas politics, I'll grant you that, but I don't remember any case where he obstructed justice.  FDR also played hardball, in the middle of two existential crises.  Trump is just playing for personal profit and aggrandizement.  I hope you can see the difference here.  I certainly can.

I was aware of that and didn't think it needed to be mentioned. I watched him get on the plane while my mom was sitting on the couch sobbing. My mom liked Nixon. Nixon ended a war that she had determined that her present government wasn't willing to win. A war that her two sons may called upon to go over and continue fighting if it continued. He was pressured to resign for an obvious reason and then formally pardoned by Gerald Ford.

I think Trump would be making a lot more money for himself doing what he did before he became president. His kids might be benefiting but not him as President. But, you're free to think whatever you want and believe whatever you want in America today. My view of Trump is this. Trump is very different as far as Republican politicians/presidents go, but he's not all that different as far as liberal politics goes today. It's nice to see a Republican who isn't afraid to fight back and slam liberals, who isn't afraid to lie to liberals like the liberals tend lie to themselves today and isn't afraid play dirty politics like the liberals prefer to play these days.

It's also nice to see a president who isn't afraid do things like imposing tariffs and meeting with the leader of North Korea and opening up diplomatic channels between the North and South Koreans and forcing Europeans to anti-up and contribute more to it's own common defense and actually trying to get a handle on the number of people who are legally/illegally entering this country.

[Eric the Green]

Trump's method is to confront and hope someone gives in, and then try to make a deal. He tore up the best deal with Iran that could have been gotten, which ended their nuclear program, even though it might have to be renewed. That makes the world more dangerous. It might work with North Korea, thanks to the dedication to peace from South Korea's leader. But if he does get a deal, which doesn't seem likely given Trump's demands, that would be to Trump's credit. Trump is imposing tariffs where they aren't necessary, and so far is unable to negotiate deals. We'll see. People are suffering in the meantime. The number of people entering the country was handled already; what Trump has done is violate the standard of human rights which this country was founded on. He gets no credit for me for that. Republicans and Trump are not willing to make a deal on that; the deal was available and they junked it.

Meanwhile, no-one has done more to institute government based on lies than Trump has done. Right-wingers say that what they disagree with are lies. But the right-wingers have put out lies for decades now, the chief one being that government programs create dependency, and that "liberty" means break for business bosses that take away opportunity and fair wages and health care from their employees and destroy the environment we depend on.

[Classic-Xer]

(09-22-2018, 02:46 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(09-22-2018, 12:28 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: What's my worldview? I assume that you know what it is or at least think you do. So, lay it out for me to see and read and determine whether its accurate or not. I know you tend to bounce around quite a bit with your use of worldview. The way one sees the world and knows it,  is a pretty good filter for one to use and others to go by don't you think. I've used the word heaven to describe your worldview. According to my worldview, we do not live in heaven and therefore your worldview does not apply to the world that we live in and doesn't belong in real life discussions. Now, I'm not rejecting heaven, I'm simply stating the reality that we ain't even close to being there yet and there isn't an amount of money that can be raised and spent to get us there tomorrow. So, you might as well give up the dream and hope Jesus is kind enough to let you in when your time comes.

Hmm.  Good question.

I think you are reddish.  You described in the past the Trump Base as simplistic, thus It seems improper to call you red, but much of the time, for most issues, I expect you to lean heavily red.

You cannot seem to see the difference between Democrats and communists.  In my view, that is easy, is basic.  Agricultural Age autocratic cultures are set on one pattern, while Industrial Age Enlightenment democracies are set in another.  I see the S&H crises and cycles as showing how cultures evolve.  In each crisis we might implement rights, reject kings, reject slavery, reject fascism, etc…  The process is incremental.  I see there being different threads involving different civilizations.  The Anglo-Americans are different from the French, are different from China, are different from the Middle East.  Each civilization finds its own way to move from the autocratic to a democracy.  It is an ugly, tedious process involving multiple wars, centuries and crises.  In some ways you seem capable of seeing it, but it sure is not the same way I do if you can’t tell an autocracy from a democracy.

In Christian tradition, heaven is perfect.  I don’t think in terms of perfection, but in terms of erasing flaws.  They may be big flaws: kings, slavery, capitalist elites, not taking care of the Earth, etc…. That makes the progress real, the effort as perpetual, incremental.

As usual, the conservatives and you are trying to stop progress.  There is usually an elite class which uses some method to maintain a too strong division of wealth in their favor.  There is often an opposing elite class, who make their profits off a newer technology, who feel a need to have their political clout match the new wealth.  Thus, they step on the old elite class hard.  Among other things, the new elite class promises the People more rights, equality, democracy, etc…. Kind of them.  Not.  Yet the People remember the promises, and the new stuff becomes real.

Through most of the turnings, it is possible to halt progress.  The advantage in different ways goes to those who want to hold still.  Eventually the changes in technology and environment keep building and explode.  Those are the days of change.  Generally the change is much more profound than anticipated.

As a reddish person, I do not anticipate you as able to perceive the need for change.  Long ago, some conservatives believed kings were selected by God and wielded His authority.  Long ago, some thought all civilization was built on the cornerstone of slavery, that slavery was the natural order.  It is really easy to see that by the new values, the old conservatives were immoral, flawed.  It is harder to see that, yourself demonstrating it, when the shifting values are todays.  It seems OK to destroy the Earth.  It seems fine to care more about People with your skin pigmentation, and reject the notion of all men being created equal.  Continuing the way things have always been done seems the correct way of doing things to many conservatives, and that is a disease I see you as sharing.

I guess that is the most important thing.  I expect you to be blind, to not see what it is not convenient for you to see, to let your greed overcome your vision.

I lean Republican. I'm reddish as you say. So, you assume my world is reddish or Republican leaning. Wow. That's impressive for a liberal. Well, I did better than that. You didn't respond to the portion of the post pertaining to our worldviews and the difference between them and why yours is rejected. I'm getting the impression that what I say or write doesn't mean as much as what you have to say or write. One straight forward, simple question that you could not answer and a long winded response about other stuff tells us what about you Bob. Bob you don't really deserve my attention, you deserve efforts, you don't deserve the time spent reading your posts or the time spent writing quality responses. The BLUES are damn near on their own at this point. The big battle you are fighting now was already won several years ago in what was then the old 4T when an odd red poster showed up and did business the old fashioned way. Get ready because the insults and the nasty terms are coming your way and the blues deserve everything that's coming their way.

[Classic-Xer]

(09-21-2018, 09:41 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: Men used to be essential to the economy for supplying brute force. Machines have been taking over work that depends heavily on brute force. Success at work requiring brain power or adept handling of human relations has nothing to do with gender.

In most species, males are more aggressive, a consequence of testosterone. I saw that difference between male and female dogs of the same breed -- the cocker spaniel. The male was far more aggressive than the female even after spaying and neutering.  Yes, they are both dogs, animals of great power, strength, and agility. They were equal in those for their size.

In a world of finely-tuned devices that can kill if mishandled, whether automobiles or nuclear weapons, aggressive behavior can be quite unwelcome. OK -- it is simply out of style to raise girls to be housewives.

I'd say jobs that left here and went to Mexico and China and other places had more to do with that than the machines.

[Bob Butler 54]

(09-22-2018, 09:43 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: I lean Republican. I'm reddish as you say. So, you assume my world is reddish or Republican leaning. Wow. That's impressive for a liberal. Well, I did better than that.

Thank you, I think.

(09-22-2018, 09:43 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: You didn't respond to the portion of the post pertaining to our worldviews and the difference between them and why yours is rejected. I'm getting the impression that what I say or write doesn't mean as much as what you have to say or write. One straight forward, simple question that you could not answer and a long winded response says what about you Bob.

Hmm.  I did answer.  You were just unable to comprehend.  The answer was incompatible with your world view, so you could not see what was written, what I believe are the forces that drive human cultural change.  If you can't tell a Democrat from a communist, it is hardly surprising that you turned my note into mush.  It is just a defense mechanism for your world view.  You are a bad listener.

I will admit to being more concerned with the red base than one odd extremist.  I have not made that much a study of you as I mostly don't care.

[Classic-Xer]

(09-22-2018, 07:45 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: Trump's method is to confront and hope someone gives in, and then try to make a deal. He tore up the best deal with Iran that could have been gotten, which ended their nuclear program, even though it might have to be renewed. That makes the world more dangerous. It might work with North Korea, thanks to the dedication to peace from South Korea's leader. But if he does get a deal, which doesn't seem likely given Trump's demands, that would be to Trump's credit. Trump is imposing tariffs where they aren't necessary, and so far is unable to negotiate deals. We'll see. People are suffering in the meantime. The number of people entering the country was handled already; what Trump has done is violate the standard of human rights which this country was founded on. He gets no credit for me for that. Republicans and Trump are not willing to make a deal on that; the deal was available and they junked it.

Meanwhile, no-one has done more to institute government based on lies than Trump has done. Right-wingers say that what they disagree with are lies. But the right-wingers have put out lies for decades now, the chief one being that government programs create dependency, and that "liberty" means break for business bosses that take away opportunity and fair wages and health care from their employees and destroy the environment we depend on.

Show me a welfare recipient who isn't dependent on the welfare system. If you find one then explain to me why they're still on it.

[Classic-Xer]

(09-22-2018, 10:25 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: Hmm.  I did answer.  You were just unable to comprehend.  The answer was incompatible with your world view, so you could not see what was written, what I believe are the forces that drive human cultural change.  If you can't tell a Democrat from a communist, it is hardly surprising that you turned my note into mush.  It is just a defense mechanism for your world view.  You are a bad listener.

I will admit to being more concerned with the red base than one odd extremist.  I have not made that much a study of you as I mostly don't care.

Reddish wasn't much of an answer. I was being sarcastic. It wasn't a compliment. Reddish was a simpleton response to a more complex question. OK, I have a reddish worldview in your opinion.  I turned your note to mush because it had nothing to do the question. OK, you use terms just for the sake of using terms that make you seem smarter or more knowledgeable. Got it. Like I said, I may not write so well but I read just fine and comprehend what's written and lack of decent responses very well. BTW, there's an odd extremist in the White House.

[Bob Butler 54]

(09-23-2018, 12:41 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(09-22-2018, 10:25 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: Hmm.  I did answer.  You were just unable to comprehend.  The answer was incompatible with your world view, so you could not see what was written, what I believe are the forces that drive human cultural change.  If you can't tell a Democrat from a communist, it is hardly surprising that you turned my note into mush.  It is just a defense mechanism for your world view.  You are a bad listener.

I will admit to being more concerned with the red base than one odd extremist.  I have not made that much a study of you as I mostly don't care.

Reddish wasn't much of an answer. I was being sarcastic. It wasn't a compliment. Reddish was a simpleton response to a more complex question. OK, I have a reddish worldview in your opinion.  I turned your note to mush because it had nothing to do the question. OK, you use terms just for the sake of using terms that make you seem smarter or more knowledgeable. Got it. Like I said, I may not write so well but I read just fine and comprehend what's written and lack of decent responses very well. BTW, there's an odd extremist in the White House.

No, if you cannot comprehend the note, you obviously have a blind spot. Then again, if you can't tell a Democrat from a communist, you obviously have another blind spot. You emphatically don't read just fine if your blind spots show so much.

[David Horn]

(09-22-2018, 04:14 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(09-22-2018, 09:02 AM)David Horn Wrote: Trump threatened to release classified material without review -- specifically because it was a threat to him.  He backed-off.  I wonder why!

Are you aware of the classified materials (the classified materials you may have been talking about) that Trump has recently released. You may not have if you are one of those people who only get their information from blue news channels, blue newspapers and blue radio channels. You may not be aware of the other investigation/ probe into a major plot involving several high ranking officials associated with the DOJ, FBI and the DNC. You should be watching FOX news, you should be listening to conservative radio channel and should be reading conservative newspapers right now too. You see if what they are saying is true, the Democratic party as you know now may end up being shredded and everything that I have eluded to and pointing out and stressing for years could end being viewed as true.. 

Bob Goodlatte is a local Congressman, so his ongoing investigation of all-things-Hillary is well known.  And the ongoing investigation of all the Federal agencies you mentioned is a product of the House Intelligence Committee (an oxymoron if there ever was one) and its chairman Devin Nunes.  Even Trey Gowdy, he of the never-ending Bengasi investigation, is embarrassed by this dangerous and unwarranted overreach.  But feel free to follow the Faux News right down the rabbit hole if is makes you feel better.

Classic Wrote:Now, who do you think the Democrats are going to be afterwards? Any guess's, any idea's, any clues? You should have some because you've been battling with one and loosing battles with one for years. How many Democrats/Republicans would support me if I were to switch or join with the Democrats? It wouldn't be very hard considering I'm associated with them now and have been associated with them for years. Bob views me as an extremist red. Bob is wrong about the color. Who does a purple represent? What does a purple represent? How much government money is being used to influence? How much government money is being used the wrong way? How much government money is being channeled to blue interest groups how seek to undermine and destroy the United States? Blues better gulp because America's entire social arsenal is waiting to be unleashed and the blues have no chance of stopping it once its unleashed. What I see and what Eric sees are very similar. He's using the stars. I'm using my intuition and common sense and knowledge of the world that we live in. Eric is viewing what the stars are telling him through a blue lens with a blue filter. I'm viewing it with through American eyes, an American's standpoint and an American's point of view.

FWIW, 99% of money channeled to special interests goes directly to private entities with strong GOP ties, like the MIC (e.g. Lockheed-Martin, General Dynamics, Academi -- formally known as Blackwater and then Xe), extraction industries as cheap oil and mineral leases, or farmers as one farm program or another.  There are many others, but that's a good short-list.  Together, they add-up to hundreds of billions of dollars.  BTW, I included Academi because it's an especially egregious example, promoting the privatization of the military for God's sake, and lead by Eric Prince, the brother of Betsy DeVos, Trumps Secretary of Education and privatizer in that realm.  

Show me anything on that scale on the Blue side of the ledger.

[David Horn]

(09-22-2018, 06:14 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: ... I watched (Nixon) get on the plane while my mom was sitting on the couch sobbing. My mom liked Nixon. Nixon ended a war that she had determined that her present government wasn't willing to win. A war that her two sons may called upon to go over and continue fighting if it continued. He was pressured to resign for an obvious reason and then formally pardoned by Gerald Ford.

You are aware that Nixon prosecuted the war too, I assume.  On this issue, there are no heroes.  None.  I will credit Ford with ending the misery, so maybe he qualifies.

Classic Wrote:I think Trump would be making a lot more money for himself doing what he did before he became president. His kids might be benefiting but not him as President. But, you're free to think whatever you want and believe whatever you want in America today. My view of Trump is this. Trump is very different as far as Republican politicians/presidents go, but he's not all that different as far as liberal politics goes today. It's nice to see a Republican who isn't afraid to fight back and slam liberals, who isn't afraid to lie to liberals like the liberals tend lie to themselves today and isn't afraid play dirty politics like the liberals prefer to play these days.

I suspect that Trump is broke or nearly so, and has been using his position to promote his own businesses as a way to get back above the line.  He and his family have made a killing on the Trump Hotel in DC -- in direct contradiction of the contract for that facility.  And as far as fighting back, where do you see that expect when it benefits him personally?  He's all talk and bluster on the populist stuff, and all actin when he profits.  His all-for-the-rich tax cuts are the quintessential example.

Classic Wrote:It's also nice to see a president who isn't afraid do things like imposing tariffs and meeting with the leader of North Korea and opening up diplomatic channels between the North and South Koreans and forcing Europeans to anti-up and contribute more to it's own common defense and actually trying to get a handle on the number of people who are legally/illegally entering this country.

What has actually happened on ay of these fronts that benefits the US?  The tariffs are just starting to hurt us, but they will hurt more as time goes on.  Note: exporting countries don't pay those tariffs, US consumers do.  So this is a tax-shifting mechanism as well, since the poor and middle class spend a much higher percentage of their earnings  on goods, and most will have tariff costs -- some directly, some imbedded in them and some will have both.  

On North Korea: so far, Kim has done nothing about his nukes, and is only negotiating with the South to get a shot at running the entire show.  But as Churchill noted, "Talk talk is better than war war."

[David Horn]

(09-22-2018, 09:55 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: I'd say jobs that left here and went to Mexico and China and other places had more to do with that than the machines.

That's true in the past, less true today, and meaningless in the future.  Based on industry projections, one half of all jobs will disappear in the next 8 years due to automation.  These true believers in the private sector assume that those jobs will be replace with newer better jobs, though they can't say what those jobs will be and what they will pay. But they know that the future is bright and wonderful.  Yeah, sure.  They once believed that moving jobs overseas would create more and better jobs here too, and you see how that worked.

We are looking into the abyss, and refuse to accept it at our own peril.  Eight years is a very short time.

[David Horn]

(09-22-2018, 10:51 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Show me a welfare recipient who isn't dependent on the welfare system. If you find one then explain to me why they're still on it.

Show me a grain farmer or military contractor who isn't dependent on government largess.  They are a lot bigger money drains than a few welfare recipients, almost all of whom have health issues of some kind.

[pbrower2a]

(09-22-2018, 10:51 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Show me a welfare recipient who isn't dependent on the welfare system. If you find one then explain to me why they're still on it.

I am for now. I had a bad back that created all sorts of subsidiary problems, including clinical depression. Medicaid will take care of my teeth, an ugly subcutaneous cyst, and the depression from a back pain. It will also solve some behaviors that created family problems. Physical therapy has started to solve a really-bad back problem that practically crippled me and pain that made me a miserable person to be around.

Without question, work is more satisfying than welfare even in a depressed area. I may have to move, but at least I will have a month of payments to facilitate a necessary move to some place where the jobs available better suit my talents. Hollow as consumerism is, it certainly beats poverty.

[Classic-Xer]

(09-23-2018, 03:00 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: No, if you cannot comprehend the note, you obviously have a blind spot.  Then again, if you can't tell a Democrat from a communist, you obviously have another blind spot.  You emphatically don't read just fine if your blind spots show so much.

Blind spots? Did you not see that I saw reddish? Do you not see that I was able to comprehend and identify your worldview and pick a term that described it that nearly everyone is able recognize, comprehend and understand the meaning of and it's origin as well. I think I hit the nail on the head. As far as bad nails (human farces) go, you either hit them square and sink them in with a hammer or you toss them on the ground and leave them to sink into the ground by themselves

The Democrats are the ones in office/ lawmakers/ policy makers. The communists, socialists, fascists, anarchists and traditional rank and file Democrats are their voters, their primary political bases, financial contributors, interest groups, campaign supporters and volunteers and so forth. Yes, its harder to distinguish/ tell who is who, who is what, who wants what, who is voting for what, who prefers what system, who is voting for what kind of system and so forth as these questions pertain to the Democratic base. Yes, its harder to figure out what the Democrat is willing to support or go along with and it is harder to see/decipher what the Democrats are truly about, what the party actually represents and what they actually want to accomplish as a party these days.

[Classic-Xer]

(09-23-2018, 11:50 AM)pbrower2a Wrote:

(09-22-2018, 10:51 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Show me a welfare recipient who isn't dependent on the welfare system. If you find one then explain to me why they're still on it.

I am for now. I had a bad back that created all sorts of subsidiary problems, including clinical depression. Medicaid will take care of my teeth, an ugly subcutaneous cyst, and the depression from a back pain. It will also solve some behaviors that created family problems. Physical therapy has started to solve a really-bad back problem that practically crippled me and pain that made me a miserable person to be around.

Without question, work is more satisfying than welfare even in a depressed area. I may have to move, but at least I will have a month of payments to facilitate a necessary move to some place where the jobs available better suit my talents. Hollow as consumerism is, it certainly beats poverty.

You're most likely are for the rest of your life. You remind me of a brother in law. He always feels as if he's getting the shaft. He talks big about himself. He talks as if he's the best at whatever he does and talks as if he's the most important person who works where he works as he's bounced around all over the place from company to company to job to job when his back ain't hurting or his sickness is cured or his finger feels better or his mind is back into it or his personal issue is resolved or the economy is better or whatever excuse has is better or he runs out of money and has no other option but to get over it and work. 

Hey, look at the bright side, you could be like me. You could be dealing with your back issue, seeing the medical bills you owe for your treatment while shelling out 1500 hundred dollars a month to keep your insurance policy. Oh yeah, I think Obamacare is great for the fortunate poor person but I don't it's so great for the more fortunate people who used to have insurance that was about half the price.

[Classic-Xer]

(09-23-2018, 09:37 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(09-22-2018, 10:51 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Show me a welfare recipient who isn't dependent on the welfare system. If you find one then explain to me why they're still on it.

Show me a grain farmer or military contractor who isn't dependent on government largess.  They are a lot bigger money drains than a few welfare recipients, almost all of whom have health issues of some kind.

Well, the farm subsidy bills were passed when the Democrats were more associated with small farm owners and labor. On the other hand, the military contractor provides a service that our government pays them to do for them. Now, I don't how many small farm owners who still vote Democratic are left these days who still need the subsidy's to remain competitive and remain in business or how many third world people there are aboard who need subsidized/free wheat to live on or how many poor people there are within the country who need cheap food to eat these days but I'm sure there's quite a few. I don't know, I don't live in farm country, I don't eat cheap bread and I'm not an extremely poor person living in a third country abroad that has little to nothing as far as infrastructure.

[Eric the Green]

(09-22-2018, 10:51 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(09-22-2018, 07:45 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: Trump's method is to confront and hope someone gives in, and then try to make a deal. He tore up the best deal with Iran that could have been gotten, which ended their nuclear program, even though it might have to be renewed. That makes the world more dangerous. It might work with North Korea, thanks to the dedication to peace from South Korea's leader. But if he does get a deal, which doesn't seem likely given Trump's demands, that would be to Trump's credit. Trump is imposing tariffs where they aren't necessary, and so far is unable to negotiate deals. We'll see. People are suffering in the meantime. The number of people entering the country was handled already; what Trump has done is violate the standard of human rights which this country was founded on. He gets no credit from me for that. Republicans and Trump are not willing to make a deal on that; the deal was available and they junked it.

Meanwhile, no-one has done more to institute government based on lies than Trump has done. Right-wingers say that what they disagree with are lies. But the right-wingers have put out lies for decades now, the chief one being that government programs create dependency, and that "liberty" means breaks for business bosses that take away opportunity and fair wages and health care from their employees and destroy the environment we depend on.

Show me a welfare recipient who isn't dependent on the welfare system. If you find one then explain to me why they're still on it.

People can't live for long on welfare; it's been cut so much that it doesn't provide a living income. Given the limits that Gingrich and Clinton imposed upon it in 1995, no-one can stay on it for very long. They are required to work or do without. Perhaps some state programs provide longer relief in states like CA, but it doesn't amount to much. Sometimes people are made wards of the state. For single men, I don't even think welfare is available in the USA anymore; it's only available for mothers with children. Food stamps are still available, although Trump wants to make people work for those too. Disability payments can last for many years, and they come as a result of insurance that people paid for. These are given to people who worked, but can't work anymore. My brother is one of those. 

One of the greatest welfare programs in existence in the USA is the prison system. That's where most of our welfare payments go. The drug war has had the opposite effect, and many young poor people go into the drug trade and then get put in prison and supported there, though it's not much of a life. But commit a crime, and at least you'll be taken care of in the USA, far more than in any other nation.

[Eric the Green]

The supposed veneration of work by Republicans can't continue. Robots are taking over most jobs, and humans won't even be needed for most of them much longer. The issue then, is why should the owners of the machines get all the income from production? They don't deserve them. Robots were supposed to save labor; they can't do that if all they do is kick people out of their jobs to starve on the street.

David pointed out the other kinds of welfare. Corporate welfare is a big deal. Military payments go to people and products who never do anything for our country but fight sometimes in wars to protect the oil business, which we don't need anymore anyway. It is the biggest "make-work" welfare industry. Conservative libertarians assume that everyone can be self-reliant, and any help from government is dependency. But it is really insurance, which we all might need, because bosses are capricious and fire people for no reason, or for reasons out of their control, or to ship their jobs overseas, or replace people with robots, or buy out companies for "efficiency" which also means firing workers. And people are not paid a living wage, which means they must go on welfare or food stamps, which means that it's really the companies that refuse to pay their workers, whom our welfare taxes are paying for.

Libertarians also say people in the free market can just take their talents and energy elsewhere and get better wages at another company. But not only are most companies corporate oligarchies these days, and collude to keep wages down, but most companies don't pay living wages without the government requiring them to do so, so there's no other jobs to go to. Libertarians also say that if companies put out bad products, they will go out of business in the free market. But before liberals like Ralph Nader came along, or the muckrakers of the progressive movement, companies put out bad products anyway, and consumers had no say. There were no alternatives. Before unions and government regulations, workers had no ability to bargain for decent working hours, conditions or wages, and they didn't have them. The free market provided none of the alleged opportunities, except for a few greedy rich bosses, whom the libertarians protect. And the environment became a junk heap with poisoned air, water and land. Libertarians are just stupid; that's one reason why their party never gets anywhere.

[Eric the Green]

(09-23-2018, 05:42 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(09-23-2018, 11:50 AM)pbrower2a Wrote:

(09-22-2018, 10:51 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Show me a welfare recipient who isn't dependent on the welfare system. If you find one then explain to me why they're still on it.

I am for now. I had a bad back that created all sorts of subsidiary problems, including clinical depression. Medicaid will take care of my teeth, an ugly subcutaneous cyst, and the depression from a back pain. It will also solve some behaviors that created family problems. Physical therapy has started to solve a really-bad back problem that practically crippled me and pain that made me a miserable person to be around.

Without question, work is more satisfying than welfare even in a depressed area. I may have to move, but at least I will have a month of payments to facilitate a necessary move to some place where the jobs available better suit my talents. Hollow as consumerism is, it certainly beats poverty.

You're most likely are for the rest of your life. You remind me of a brother in law. He always feels as if he's getting the shaft. He talks big about himself. He talks as if he's the best at whatever he does and talks as if he's the most important person who works where he works as he's bounced around all over the place from company to company to job to job when his back ain't hurting or his sickness is cured or his finger feels better or his mind is back into it or his personal issue is resolved or the economy is better or whatever excuse has is better or he runs out of money and has no other option but to get over it and work. 

Hey, look at the bright side, you could be like me. You could be dealing with your back issue, seeing  the medical bills you owe for your treatment while shelling out 1500 hundred dollars a month to keep your insurance policy. Oh yeah, I think Obamacare is great for the fortunate poor person but I don't it's so great for the more fortunate people who used to have insurance that was about half the price.

And we can blame the Democrats-in-name-only (DINOs) in 2009 for that. If we had medicare for all, our low medicare taxes could be raised to cover everybody, and the pool of contributors would be much larger, payments to medical providers would be lower because of the regulations and common market, and payments would not just be going to sicker older people. 

With no public option, and now with no mandate, premiums for Obamacare have risen. And red states cut off medicaid programs, so they got no money to cover it, and that may have had the effect of raising rates too in the exchanges.

[pbrower2a]

(09-23-2018, 05:42 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(09-23-2018, 11:50 AM)pbrower2a Wrote:

(09-22-2018, 10:51 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Show me a welfare recipient who isn't dependent on the welfare system. If you find one then explain to me why they're still on it.

I am for now. I had a bad back that created all sorts of subsidiary problems, including clinical depression. Medicaid will take care of my teeth, an ugly subcutaneous cyst, and the depression from a back pain. It will also solve some behaviors that created family problems. Physical therapy has started to solve a really-bad back problem that practically crippled me and pain that made me a miserable person to be around.

Without question, work is more satisfying than welfare even in a depressed area. I may have to move, but at least I will have a month of payments to facilitate a necessary move to some place where the jobs available better suit my talents. Hollow as consumerism is, it certainly beats poverty.

You're most likely are for the rest of your life. You remind me of a brother in law. He always feels as if he's getting the shaft. He talks big about himself. He talks as if he's the best at whatever he does and talks as if he's the most important person who works where he works as he's bounced around all over the place from company to company to job to job when his back ain't hurting or his sickness is cured or his finger feels better or his mind is back into it or his personal issue is resolved or the economy is better or whatever excuse has is better or he runs out of money and has no other option but to get over it and work. 

Hey, look at the bright side, you could be like me. You could be dealing with your back issue, seeing  the medical bills you owe for your treatment while shelling out 1500 hundred dollars a month to keep your insurance policy. Oh yeah, I think Obamacare is great for the fortunate poor person but I don't it's so great for the more fortunate people who used to have insurance that was about half the price.

I have plenty of cause for pessimism. I am far too old to start any business that depends upon merchandising, a trade, or (the business most started from scratch) food service. This is a horrible time in which to start a small  business, as giant entities are able to crush upstarts due to a tax structure that favors vertical integration and breadth of geographic scope. Economies of scale hurt anyone who must compete with the giants of retailing with such things as advertising and tax compliance. Forget manufacturing, banking, or fast food, which used to be cottage industries. It's going to take another 1930s-style depression to render the corporate behemoths extinct and create niches for small-scale business.

Needless to say, you have seen what I have said about the bureaucratic elites who administer the economy on behalf of owners, mostly heirs... I generally expect no humanity from them. They seem to think that the rest of humanity exists only to make those already filthy rich even more filthy rich by suffering on their behalf and accepting their allotted roles -- but always remembering to show how much they love the plutocratic order that we have.  Well (expletive deleted) Donald Trump, who exemplifies everything wrong with America if it isn't meteorological in cause.

By the way -- we have the most expensive medical-care system because the government fully endorses the monopolization of the business. That is the choice of the Hard Right, people aligned with the heirs and the corporate bureaucrats who exploit us all badly. That includes you. Monopoly profits fund the lobbying firms who are the government in all but name.