Bipartisan Senate group proposes ‘no fly, no buy’ gun measure

[Eric the Green]

(10-10-2018, 12:19 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(10-09-2018, 04:59 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: The Left always represents freedom; the right-wing represents authority.

These days, of course, authority uses slogans of freedom to deceive the people into voting to enslave themselves.

Did the Soviet Union represent freedom? Do any of the communist nations that are still left represent freedom? Do you represent freedom when compared to me? Come on dude, think like a liberal before you blurt out something stupid like a person who claims to be liberal does.

Totalitarian regimes are too far around the circle to be the Left that I mean. They took over by force in Russia and won a civil war. They are not like left parties in democratic countries. North Korea is horrible, and was installed in power by Russia, but Cuba may be getting better; time will tell. China is not really communist anymore, but state capitalist, and is not free. Left countries are the happiest and freest in the world, many of them in northern Europe.

I certainly represent freedom more than you. You represent enslavement to the bosses, among other oppressions. Freedom is not owning a gun. Guns destroy freedom and destroy lives. Freedom is not cowtowing to traditional, authoritarian notions of "respecting America" instead of asking that America live up to its ideals.

[Bob Butler 54]

(10-09-2018, 02:24 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: Possession and use of firearms is imposition of violence on the people, and support for the arms industry. It hasn't the slightest thing to do with any human rights, and only American conservatives think it does. The second amendment was put in place so that southerners would have arms to suppress a slave rebellion.

Oh?  I am a conservative now?  I think that many have owned firearms and have not committed what I consider an act of violence?  While slaves were one reason the Second was put in place, it is my opinion that there are many other well documented reasons?  These do not go away by your ignoring them?

I realize that you erase comprehension of ideas incompatible with your world view.  You are an extremist.  Not all do, but erasure is common enough.  However, the above post is as clear an illustration of not being able to comprehend opposing thought as I have seen.

In the early days of the Industrial Age, when the enemy was the Agricultural Age nobility with hereditary privilege, they glorified violence more. The Second Amendment was recognized widely as acknowledging right on which all others were based. Civil Wars and Revolutions drove the S&H cycles. Violence was seen as necessary, was quite conceivably necessary, to overthrow the Agricultural Age norm of autocracy.

Now we have a modern blue set of values that would degrade the meaning and importance of the old values, but a good many people recognize the old values with the usual intensity of a values divide question.

But you should really make a genuine attempt to understand the old values. It seems you really are incapable of understanding opinions that conflict with your own. The word 'obtuse' is not used lightly, but is quite apt, not that those who use it are not just as obtuse in other ways.

(10-09-2018, 02:24 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: Oh and btw, this IS a second amendment thread. It's back on topic

Well, I guess we can still agree on some things.  

[Bob Butler 54]

(10-10-2018, 02:03 AM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(10-10-2018, 12:19 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(10-09-2018, 04:59 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: The Left always represents freedom; the right-wing represents authority.

These days, of course, authority uses slogans of freedom to deceive the people into voting to enslave themselves.

Did the Soviet Union represent freedom? Do any of the communist nations that are still left represent freedom? Do you represent freedom when compared to me? Come on dude, think like a liberal before you blurt out something stupid like a person who claims to be liberal does.

Totalitarian regimes are too far around the circle to be the Left that I mean. They took over by force in Russia and won a civil war. They are not like left parties in democratic countries. North Korea is horrible, and was installed in power by Russia, but Cuba may be getting better; time will tell. China is not really communist anymore, but state capitalist, and is not free. Left countries are the happiest and freest in the world, many of them in northern Europe.

I certainly represent freedom more than you. You represent enslavement to the bosses, among other oppressions. Freedom is not owning a gun. Guns destroy freedom and destroy lives. Freedom is not cowtowing to traditional, authoritarian notions of "respecting America" instead of asking that America live up to its ideals.

I consider the difference between authoritarian government and democratic as more basic than the left-right difference.  Autocratic government was a signature of how they did it in the Agricultural age, with fascism and communism as attempts to continue autocracy into the Industrial Age.  Trying to extend the very valid lessons learned about fascism and communism into democratic institutions is mostly propaganda and an unwillingness to learn.

Now I do lean blue.  I do value the "all men are created equal" Enlightenment value as important.  Thus I see the red idea of freedom as less that the blue.

But red or blue I find the attempts to keep true autocratic governments alive lacking badly in terms of defining and understanding what freedom is.  Being unaware of the difference between autocratic and democratic values results in absurdity.

[Galen]

(10-09-2018, 04:59 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: The Left always represents freedom; the right-wing represents authority.

Given the how much the left acts like the Inquisitors of centuries past it seems that they are in direct opposition to individual liberty these days.

I see that you avoided responding to my last message because you don't want to admit to the evil the state can cause.  The would be committing blasphemy against the god of the liberals and progressives.

[Bob Butler 54]

(10-10-2018, 03:20 AM)Galen Wrote: Given the how much the left acts like the Inquisitors of centuries past it seems that they are in direct opposition to individual liberty these days.

The inquisition at best was an anti drug agency in an age when religion and superstition was dominant, not science. The foe was witchcraft, which was the use of ergot and other similar poisons to generate a high. Potions were often boiled in large black pots to achieve concentration, often applied to broomsticks, applied to the thin skin of the genitals to be absorbed relatively safely, and sometimes left behind a green tint over the whole body. There is basis in fact behind many of the old myths. Believe it or not, the modern equivalent drugs are safer, less destructive. That says a lot when you are comparing against heroin or crystal meth. The ingredients and recipes are still available, but have passed into disuse.

At worst, the inquisition provided a way to torture and destroy innocents and take their assets. Any time you do not have adequate checks and balances on an organization, and the Inquisition counts, it will become corrupt to the point of being evil. The tools they thought appropriate to fight drug abuse have to be powerful, and are therefore corruptible if not watched and checked. At a time when true autocratic government and religion were the norm, it got really bad.

In what way are blues like the inquisition? Do blues use torture, and are they immune to prosecution when they do?

I see you as using absurd propaganda which has no basis in a complex reality.

[Galen]

(10-10-2018, 06:27 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(10-10-2018, 03:20 AM)Galen Wrote: Given the how much the left acts like the Inquisitors of centuries past it seems that they are in direct opposition to individual liberty these days.

In what way are blues like the inquisition?  Do blues use torture, and are they immune to prosecution when they do?

You haven't spent much time in the Portland area have you?  This is the crap we get to put up with from the left.  The police are useless as usual.






So far it appears that they are immune to prosecution.

[pbrower2a]

(10-10-2018, 06:27 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(10-10-2018, 03:20 AM)Galen Wrote: Given the how much the left acts like the Inquisitors of centuries past it seems that they are in direct opposition to individual liberty these days.

The inquisition at best was an anti drug agency in an age when religion and superstition was dominant, not science.  The foe was witchcraft, which was the use of ergot and other similar poisons to generate a high.  Potions were often boiled in large black pots to achieve concentration, often applied to broomsticks, applied to the thin skin of the genitals to be absorbed relatively safely, and sometimes left behind a green tint over the whole body.  There is basis in fact behind many of the old myths.  Believe it or not, the modern equivalent drugs are safer, less destructive.  That says a lot when you are comparing against heroin or crystal meth.  The ingredients and recipes are still available, but have passed into disuse.

Remember that the witches were typically seen as old women, often insane or senile. The drug in question was ergot, a fungal infection of grains other than wheat. Ergot is a word-forming element of the name of the hallucinogen lysergic acid, best known as LSD. The potions are sophisticated alchemy.  Broomsticks? Women had those.

Quote:At worst, the inquisition provided a way to torture and destroy innocents and take their assets.  Any time you do not have adequate checks and balances on an organization, and the Inquisition counts, it will become corrupt to the point of being evil.  The tools they thought appropriate to fight drug abuse have to be powerful, and are therefore corruptible if not watched and checked.  At a time when true autocratic government and religion were the norm, it got really bad.

The point. What begins as a moral crusade often becomes pillage and sadism.

Quote:In what way are blues like the inquisition?  Do blues use torture, and are they immune to prosecution when they do?

I see you as using absurd propaganda which has no basis in a complex reality.

It's simple. Galen sees himself as a victim of a society that rejects his values of pure plutocracy as the means of rushing to an aristocratic order.

[David Horn]

(10-09-2018, 03:18 PM)Galen Wrote: The mere existence or use of a firearm is no more an act of violence than possession and use of a knife or hammer unless you start using them on people.  You only have to look at London now to see how far the idiocy of blaming objects for the actions of individuals will go.  You might want to spend some time reading about the Militia Acts of 1792 which gives a much better sense of the purpose of the Second Amendment.  They specifically made firearms ownership an individual right because they understood perfectly well that one of the first things a tyrannical government does is disarm the target population.  It was what they experienced under the British.  In fact this is already happening in South Africa.

I notice that you chose a comparison between NYC (the lowest-crime major city in the US) and London, UK.  That the two are essentially the same is not really a knock on London.  A better comparison would be a major US city with minimal weapons control, like Chicago or even LA.  There are plenty of others as well.

Moving on to the Militia Act, and your supposition that the need to have armed citizens as a check on tyrannical government is ludicrous on its face.  We aren't a nation of sword-wielders these days, which, btw, was the "arm" of choice for most people who had them.  If you wish to look back at the arming of America in 1792 as a guide for arming Americans today, you should arm them in a similar manner.  If you wish to promote citizen militias, then do so directly.

[Bob Butler 54]

(10-10-2018, 06:44 AM)Galen Wrote: You haven't spent much time in the Portland area have you?  This is the crap we get to put up with from the left.  The police are useless as usual.

Well, I see no torture therefore no prosecution for torture. We are seeing an abuse of the right of free speech, but we see that from the fascists too.

You will have to do better than that to get beyond a vast enough exaggerated propaganda to alleviate your reputation as a liar.

But, yes, I do live on the east coast, and have not visited Portland.

[Bob Butler 54]

(10-10-2018, 09:34 AM)David Horn Wrote: Moving on to the Militia Act, and your supposition that the need to have armed citizens as a check on tyrannical government is ludicrous on its face.  We aren't a nation of sword-wielders these days, which, btw, was the "arm" of choice for most people who had them.  If you wish to look back at the arming of America in 1792 as a guide for arming Americans today, you should arm them in a similar manner.  If you wish to promote citizen militias, then do so directly.

It may seem ludicrous to one who leans blue today, but it was not ludicrous in a time when a revolution or civil war was so common.  Democracy was an experiment, but war was well established.  Many do hold the old values, and as usual values will stay in place long after practical application has past them by.  That may or may not be the case here.

[Eric the Green]

(10-10-2018, 02:55 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(10-10-2018, 02:03 AM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(10-10-2018, 12:19 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(10-09-2018, 04:59 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: The Left always represents freedom; the right-wing represents authority.

These days, of course, authority uses slogans of freedom to deceive the people into voting to enslave themselves.

Did the Soviet Union represent freedom? Do any of the communist nations that are still left represent freedom? Do you represent freedom when compared to me? Come on dude, think like a liberal before you blurt out something stupid like a person who claims to be liberal does.

Totalitarian regimes are too far around the circle to be the Left that I mean. They took over by force in Russia and won a civil war. They are not like left parties in democratic countries. North Korea is horrible, and was installed in power by Russia, but Cuba may be getting better; time will tell. China is not really communist anymore, but state capitalist, and is not free. Left countries are the happiest and freest in the world, many of them in northern Europe.

I certainly represent freedom more than you. You represent enslavement to the bosses, among other oppressions. Freedom is not owning a gun. Guns destroy freedom and destroy lives. Freedom is not cowtowing to traditional, authoritarian notions of "respecting America" instead of asking that America live up to its ideals.

I consider the difference between authoritarian government and democratic as more basic than the left-right difference.  Autocratic government was a signature of how they did it in the Agricultural age, with fascism and communism as attempts to continue autocracy into the Industrial Age.  Trying to extend the very valid lessons learned about fascism and communism into democratic institutions is mostly propaganda and an unwillingness to learn.

Now I do lean blue.  I do value the "all men are created equal" Enlightenment value as important.  Thus I see the red idea of freedom as less that the blue.

But red or blue I find the attempts to keep true autocratic governments alive lacking badly in terms of defining and understanding what freedom is.  Being unaware of the difference between autocratic and democratic values results in absurdity.

The political compass and the Nolan grid pretty well illustrate those two axes; they are equally important. 

It is apparent though that the autocrats today are using slogans of "freedom" to enslave us to Mitch McConnell and other autocrats and bullshitters. Americans of all generations are authoritarians; they can't summon the will to fight back anymore. We are declining in both ways, going to the right and leaning red, and going toward the authoritarian quarter too. That is the quarter whose maximum expression is the Nazis.

"Freedom" to Ted Cruz and Galen is the right to not serve a gay at a bakery, and the notion that possession of a gun is no different than possessing a knife. We've heard it all before. Freedom is free enterprise, and taxes are theft. Government is the problem. Job creaters give us everything. We've heard it, and we Americans believe it. That's why we are now a banana republic. It is official.

[Eric the Green]

(10-10-2018, 11:52 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(10-10-2018, 06:44 AM)Galen Wrote: You haven't spent much time in the Portland area have you?  This is the crap we get to put up with from the left.  The police are useless as usual.

Well, I see no torture therefore no prosecution for torture.  We are seeing an abuse of the right of free speech, but we see that from the fascists too.

You will have to do better than that to get beyond a vast enough exaggerated propaganda to alleviate your reputation as a liar.

But, yes, I do live on the east coast, and have not visited Portland.

Portland is a great city. My brother lives there; I went there last year. The people there are conscious, and cultured. Their city is the best planned in the nation. Counter culture and left politics flourish. Of course, there are creeps there too; it's still Amerika. A few fascists cause trouble. But even their food beat out San Francisco for #1 in a recent survey! They know how to do it as well as any city in the backward USA. Portland is awesome. 

Galen should leave; his kind don't belong there. Why not move down to Roseburg, Galen? All the gun toters there would welcome you. Move down, move to the state of Jefferson. You'll like it there and find less to complain about.

[pbrower2a]

(10-10-2018, 12:19 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(10-09-2018, 04:59 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: The Left always represents freedom; the right-wing represents authority.

These days, of course, authority uses slogans of freedom to deceive the people into voting to enslave themselves.

Did the Soviet Union represent freedom? Do any of the communist nations that are still left represent freedom? Do you represent freedom when compared to me? Come on dude, think like a liberal before you blurt out something stupid like a person who claims to be liberal does.

Totalitarian regimes ossify fast in their politics. They may begin with rhetoric of daring radicalism, but the reality of power sets in. One is connected or one gets stepped on. Government ownership and operation of business without democracy degenerated quickly into serfdom. The political system was always fixed to get a predictable result that always favored those in power.

Dissent? You die. That is one way to develop a perverse sort of conservatism.

One rap on the Soviet Union was that despite the 'socialist' ownership of productive enterprise, the system became increasingly reactionary. It is worth remembering that fascists typically imitated the terror, regimentation, and violence of the Soviet Union. It is also worthy of remembering that the French Popular Party (which was the leading force in French politics under the traitorous Vichy Regime) was founded by a former Commie and had a Politburo.

So let's look at a list of vices associated with  Fascist regimes and see how many apply to Commie regimes. I am using Laurence Britt's fourteen warning signs of fascism, which apply in general to authoritarian right-wing regimes ranging from Hitler's Germany to Pinochet's Chile.  Does the Infernal State of Iraq and the Levant count, too?

Red applies to both, and purple if it varies or is ambiguous.

1.  Rampant nationalism. Use of national or Party symbols everywhere. Sometimes commies pretend to be internationalist like liberals.
2. Disdain for the value of human rights. Fascists and commies are about equal at this.
3. Scapegoating. Finding people easy to demonize for the failures of the regime. Kulaks, reactionaries, spies, 'wreckers'.
4. Avid militarism. Commie states are highly regimented with great importance on military prowess.
5. Sexism.  I'll hand it to the Commies -- they are not particularly sexist.
6. Controlled mass media. Oh, is it controlled!
7. Obsession with national security. Communist states always see dangers from elsewhere. Every capitalist state is a menace.
8. Religion and government closely intertwined.  Communists may be hostile to religion, but they certainly control it where they rule.
9. Corporate power exalted. It is the power of state-owned enterprises, so it is not some aristocratic elite. It is still crushing. I prefer small business as the default, as it cannot buy the political process.
10. Labor power suppressed. Unions are of the sort that simply exhort workers to work harder and more dedication and supply audiences for mass rallies of the regime. No worker needs that.
11. Disdain for intellectuals and the arts. Propagandists do well, but there is no art for art's sake. It is for the Socialist ideal.
12. Obsession with crime and punishment. Especially with economic offenses.
13. Corruption and cronyism. It goes with the territory in all despotic and dictatorial societies. Those who have the power steal at will.
14. Rigged elections. A common story: Over 90% of eligible persons voted, and over 90% voted for candidates of the ruling Party, and the numbers for both can be as high as 100%. The single list is the norm.

If you dislike fascism, you probably will not like Communism in practice. Life is a privilege, liberty is non-existent, and the pursuit of happiness is sheer folly under Communism, fascism, Ba'athism, or ISIS.

For most of these reasons, you should understand why I despise Donald Trump as President of the United States.

[Bob Butler 54]

(10-10-2018, 12:14 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: The political compass and the Nolan grid pretty well illustrate those two axes; they are equally important. 

Well, I for one would rather live under a Republican president than under your typical dictator.

[Eric the Green]

(10-10-2018, 01:44 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(10-10-2018, 12:14 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: The political compass and the Nolan grid pretty well illustrate those two axes; they are equally important. 

Well, I for one would rather live under a Republican president than under your typical dictator.

Considering Bush and Trump, there's not much difference. Once the right wing court gets through, the barriers to tyranny here will be gone.

[Eric the Green]

(10-10-2018, 01:42 PM)pbrower2a Wrote:

(10-10-2018, 12:19 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(10-09-2018, 04:59 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: The Left always represents freedom; the right-wing represents authority.

These days, of course, authority uses slogans of freedom to deceive the people into voting to enslave themselves.

Did the Soviet Union represent freedom? Do any of the communist nations that are still left represent freedom? Do you represent freedom when compared to me? Come on dude, think like a liberal before you blurt out something stupid like a person who claims to be liberal does.

Totalitarian regimes ossify fast in their politics. They may begin with rhetoric of daring radicalism, but the reality of power sets in. One is connected or one gets stepped on. Government ownership and operation of business without democracy degenerated quickly into serfdom. The political system was always fixed to get a predictable result that always favored those in power.

Dissent? You die.

One rap on the Soviet Union was that despite the 'socialist' ownership of productive enterprise, the system became increasingly reactionary. It is worth remembering that fascists typically imitated the terror, regimentation, and violence of the Soviet Union. It is also worthy of remembering that the French Popular Party (which was the leading force in French politics under the traitorous Vichy Regime) was founded by a former Commie and had a Politburo.

So let's look at a list of vices associated with  Fascist regimes and see how many apply to Commie regimes.

Red applies to both, and purple if it varies or is ambiguous.

1.  Rampant nationalism. Use of national or Party symbols everywhere.Some times commies pretend to be internationalist like liberals.
2. Disdain for the value of human rights. Fascists and commies are about equal at this.
3. Scapegoating. Finding people easy to demonize for the failures of the regime. Kulaks, reactionaries, spies, 'wreckers'.
4. Avid militarism. Commie states are highly regimented with great importance on military prowess.
5. Sexism.  I'll hand it to the Commies -- they are not particularly sexist.
6. Controlled mass media. Oh, is it controlled!
7. Obsession with national security. Communist states always see dangers from elsewhere. Every capitalist state is a menace.
8. Religion and government closely intertwined.  Communists may be hostile to religion, but they certainly control it where they rule.
9. Corporate power exalted. It is the power of state-owned enterprises, so it is not some aristocratic elite. It is still crushing.
10. Labor power suppressed. Unions are of the sort that simply exhort workers to work harder and more dedication. No worker needs that.
11. Disdain for intellectuals and the arts. Propagandists do well, but there is no art for art's sake. It is for the Socialist ideal.
12. Obsession with crime and punishment. Especially with economic offenses.
13. Corruption and cronyism. It goes with the territory in all despotic and dictatorial societies. Those who have the power steal at will.
14. Rigged elections. A common story: Over 90% of eligible persons voted, and over 90% voted for candidates of the ruling Party. The single list is the norm.

If you dislike fascism, you probably will not like Communism in practice.

We are on our way. While the libertarians worry about their guns, they forget that Hitler loved people owning guns. Libertarians worry about taxes and regulations, but fascists dictate everything to everyone. That is who libertarians vote for; dictators. That is who Classic Xer votes for. They are getting it.

[Eric the Green]

(10-10-2018, 02:00 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(10-10-2018, 01:44 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(10-10-2018, 12:14 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: The political compass and the Nolan grid pretty well illustrate those two axes; they are equally important. 

Well, I for one would rather live under a Republican president than under your typical dictator.

Considering Bush and Trump, there's not much difference. Once the right wing court gets through, the barriers to tyranny here will be gone.

It is a good point, I don't mean to lessen it. It can be confusing. The conservative/right-wing side of the circle seeks to maximize power for a few; the left wing for the many. For Republican or similar conservatives, the society they advocate would be one where a few people have most of the wealth, and most others work hard for little reward and are looked down upon as undeserving. It would also favor the well-established groups in society, and suppress or retard advancement for those out of favor; to make their country great again by keeping others out, and to advance their country over others through war if need be.

So how is that different from state tyranny--- the bottom of the Nolan chart, or upper left on the political compass? 

Conservatives are able to use deceptive slogans like the patriotic "make our country great again" and more "freedom" for job creaters that will lift all boats, etc, in order to create a society that benefits only themselves, but this would not be limited to state power, might not involve killing or jailing too many dissidents, although unrest and protest would be put down, labor unions restricted, ethnic and gender groups discriminated against, traditionally-favored religious morality prescriptions enforced, etc. 

The bottom of the Nolan chart means state power per se; it might lean to the left as well, in which case any criticism of the regime would be fatal, but business would be more severely restricted than is the case with a right-wing tyranny. There would be more enforced equality, perhaps a more international approach; but it would still be very tyrannical, and the result would be that most people are equally poor, because business is so controlled and stagnant; and culture very stagnant and limited to what is approved by the regime, as would also likely be the case with a right-wing tyranny. Various kinds of supposed leftist elitism and political correctness might also reflect a fall toward state tyranny in the lower left quarter.

It might be that the circle is an ellipse, with the right wing and the bottom closer together, in reality. But since that is not the consensus among those who participate in politics, the lower right quarter is just as big as the lower left quarter. True freedom is only found on the left wing. But again, since most people don't know that, and might never know, or might not be able to handle that much true freedom without abuse, the circle is what it is. On the other hand, since progress has happened over the long term, the meaning of left has gotten further left, relative to actual circumstances. For example, since more kinds of people can vote in America, and more people also have protection there from business practices, than 200 years ago, the meaning of left has shifted left in the USA from what it was in 1818. This in spite of the fact that the meaning of left has also shifted to the right in the USA over the last 40 years, and the meaning of right has also shifted correspondingly right, and is also to the right of most other countries.

It might be that the gap between bottom and top is greater than the gap between left and right, in fact-- since total state tyranny is so much worse than being caught in the oligarchical and narrowly-empowered right wing, or subject to the feared power of the unhinged people on the left. The danger of totalitarian state tyranny at the bottom is greater than the danger of either wing, but so also is the danger of total anarchy at the top, which in fact quickly becomes the former as well.

BUT, the fact remains that most people, in spite of the circle, line up along the right/left axis, according to the empirical results of questionnaires. So, because there are fewer people rising up into the increasing stateless anarchy of libertarian, or falling into the trap of state tyranny, the circle remains what it is.

[Bob Butler 54]

The elites, one group of elites, have always dominated.  There was the hereditary nobility of the Agricultural Age.  They moved into the communists and fascists, keeping autocracy but welcoming modern industry.  There were also the robber barons.  Where the robber barons fought the kings and land owning nobility, promises were made to the People to give the robber barons power.  We live with the imperfections of those deals.

The difference is that in a democratic civilization the politicians have to fool somebody.  The 1% has to get something like a majority, which they do with patriotic slogans, the slave compromises, and hiding behind slogans such as "small government".  All they need is good sounding reasons to do bad things and they can maintain power.

You would like to think that Lincoln was right, that you can't fool all of the people all of the time.  I prefer to think of the rural folk as stubborn but not stupid.  Every four score and seven years, I am used to people seeing through some of the lies, of things getting a little better.

Autocracies such as those run by the kings, Hitler, Stalin, Mao and their ilk rule by fear to a great extent.  They fooled nobody in the long term.  They didn't have to.

[Classic-Xer]

(10-10-2018, 01:42 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: If you dislike fascism, you probably will not like Communism in practice. Life is a privilege, liberty is non-existent, and the pursuit of happiness is sheer folly under Communism, fascism, Ba'athism, or ISIS.

For most of these reasons, you should understand why I despise Donald Trump as President of the United States.

I'd add socialism to the list of terms one should avoid as well. I think liberals/blues fail to understand/accept the reality that Hitler and the Nazi party were elected Democratically. I don't think Democratic voters understand that the beloved party of old associated with their parents and grand parents is no longer the party that represents the interests of the common man/ regular folks these days. Blues should expect the current trend to continue until the political/ideological lines solidify. What happens then? Blue America finds out what it was like to live in Yugoslavia during the time of its demise. I agree with the view of Eric Holder, when the other side stoops low, KICK THEM/PUNISH THEM. I'm glad to see that arrogant mother fucker is now starting to view and see things OUR WAY too. It's not going to be long before its going to be open season on all blues. You see, we aren't pissed yet. We are aggravated, disgusted and getting more upset but we aren't pissed yet because we still have faith in the American system.

[Eric the Green]

(10-11-2018, 12:24 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(10-10-2018, 01:42 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: If you dislike fascism, you probably will not like Communism in practice. Life is a privilege, liberty is non-existent, and the pursuit of happiness is sheer folly under Communism, fascism, Ba'athism, or ISIS.

For most of these reasons, you should understand why I despise Donald Trump as President of the United States.

I'd add socialism to the list of terms one should avoid as well. I think liberals/blues fail to understand/accept the reality that Hitler and the Nazi party were elected Democratically. I don't think Democratic voters understand that the beloved party of old associated with their parents and grand parents is no longer the party that represents the interests of the common man/ regular folks these days. Blues should expect the current trend to continue until the political/ideological lines solidify. What happens then? Blue America finds out what it was like to live in Yugoslavia during the time of its demise. I agree with the view of Eric Holder, when the other side stoops low, KICK THEM/PUNISH THEM. I'm glad to see that arrogant mother fucker is now starting to view and see things OUR WAY too. It's not going to be long before its going to be open season on all blues. You see, we aren't pissed yet. We are aggravated, disgusted and getting more upset but we aren't pissed yet because we still have faith in the American system.

Trump was elected in much the same way that Hitler was. Both got a minority of the votes. Trump was installed by virtue of the electoral college, the institution created to keep the people from voting, and as an incentive to get the slave states in the union since blacks were only 3/5 people. Also, by virtue of vote suppression laws of various kinds. Hitler was installed in office by a plot by conservatives to install him as chancellor to forestall a left government, thinking they could control him since his party was not in the majority in parliament. But when his brown shirts set fire to the Reichstag, Hitler used this "trumped" up incident to get an enabling law passed, which gave him expanded powers.

Democratic voters understand that the beloved GOP of their parents and grand parents no longer represents the interests of regular folks these days. The Republican Party represents ONLY the interests of the rich, and uses the prejudices of racists and semi-racists and religious fanatics, which are a large proportion of the voters in red states, which in turn are disproportionately way over-represented in the electoral college and the senate, to support the greed of our corporate masters. We are already finding out what happens when political and ideological lines solidify. The people get screwed over royally. And that's what's happening today.

We blues are aggravated, disgusted and getting more upset but we aren't pissed yet because we still have faith in the American system. But speaking for myself, I am already pissed off and have been for some time. We are being kicked and punished just for speaking out. This last 2 weeks have probably put me a lot farther toward the pissed-off level, and my faith in the American system has about run out.