Bipartisan Senate group proposes ‘no fly, no buy’ gun measure

[pbrower2a]

(12-11-2018, 01:58 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Actually, its not hard to make that determination, I've been doing it for a long time. Why wouldn't they? They crashed through Mexico's southern border or weren't you paying attention to that at the time. As far as I know, US troops can shoot foreigners who attack and threaten the lives of US citizens. You better pull your head out before you have no say in what the American people decide to do about the blue issue and your queen better figure out that most American people are able to make determinations between the Democrats of old and the blues who are running/controlling their party today.

The typical American soldier has much more conscience than our current President, and he is now trained to recognize an illegal order as one to disobey and protest. Orders to commit war crimes and crimes against Humanity are illegal orders. Refusal to obey such an order is to be expected. Sure, point a gun at an armed American soldier and expect to die. That falls under the category of "clear and present danger", as in "pull a gun on a cop and expect to die".

I do not see people seeking to enter the United States illegally as a clear and present danger to Americans unless they bear arms or are part of a terrorist plot. These people want the peace and safety in the USA.

You need to recognize that those Central Americans are fleeing violence related to drug activity that American addicts are financing through their purchases of addictive substances. Drug money creates misery and rends the fabric of civil society. Were it not for the trade in illicit drugs, people would not be desperate to leave some of the most dangerous places in the world that are not war zones or places of lethal epidemics.

[Eric the Green]

(12-11-2018, 01:58 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(12-11-2018, 12:45 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(12-11-2018, 12:57 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(12-11-2018, 12:07 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: Obama was known as the deporter-in-chief, which I would have thought made you happy, considering your usual statements. But Trump has made it worse, without any cause for doing so; separating families, taking men away from their families off the streets, holding immigrants in detention centers, issuing a no-tolerance policy, threatening them with violence, etc. The Obama immigration policy regarding Muslims was very strict, and I don't think your charge against Obama regarding them is correct. Obama and Bush before him and their administrations were good at finding terrorists and stopping them before they could do anything, and at attacking them abroad as well.

Well, it didn't upset me anymore than those pictures upset me and didn't seem to upset the Mexican American voters who voted for Hillary or the liberal news chief or members of the liberal who most likely saw those pictures either. I don't mind if an American president ( any American President) responds to a potential border crisis by sending US troops to back up/reinforce the border patrol as a means to stop 5,000 illegal immigrants who are approaching our southern border in mass who could clash with and overwhelm border security forces in areas. Would you prefer they're dealt with by trained professionals or an angry mod of Americans? I'm glad someone sunk some sense into Obama's head & reminded him which country he was elected to be the President of and who he was suppose to serve before American citizens began taking the law the into their own hands. Now that the blues have regained the House that they lost and the blue Queen seems to have regained the seat that she lost, the blues are going to have to be careful and learn how to submit to the will of the American people because that's what the blues are going to be judged on now. As I've mentioned before, I've never associated the blues with America. I never viewed blues as being American in their views or their values.  I associate the older Democrats like my father in law and their kids as Americans but not the blues. My Democratic friends and casual acquaintance aren't blues which is why I view them as friends and casual acquaintances and don't view them or treat them as adversaries or the enemy so to speak. This is also the reason why, I don't blame them for the stupid shit the blues tend to do and the way the blues tend to act and behave and so forth.

I'm not sure you can make that distinction. Blues is a term that means Democrats.

Do you think the caravan of refugees from Central America thought they could just crash the border and move in? I think they expected an asylum process. By law they are entitled to that process, according to the Courts. Trump's labeling them as criminals and terrorists is his big lie, the one he began his campaign with, and if the reds buy that lie it reflects very poorly upon them. Trump said his troops could shoot the immigrants; that if anything is un-American.

Actually, its not hard to make that determination, I've been doing it for a long time. Why wouldn't they? They crashed through Mexico's southern border or weren't you paying attention to that at the time. As far as I know, US troops can shoot foreigners who attack and threaten the lives of US citizens. You better pull your head out before you have no say in what the American people decide to do about the blue issue and your queen better figure out that most American people are able to make determinations between the Democrats of old and the blues who are running/controlling their party today.

You say you know Democrats today that are not blues. That is false. All Democrats are blue by definition. Blues is a word for Democrats, reds for Republicans. It's just the colors on the map on election day TV. Our "queen" is moderate and even conservative in her voting record compared to other Democrats in congress. If your friends who are Democrats do not support the policies of their representatives in congress, then how do they get elected? Do they vote for the congressperson who represents your district in suburban Minneapolis? You have mentioned your dislike of Keith Ellison before, is he your representative? The suburban district 3 had been Republican and flipped to Democratic in the recent election, I believe.

The demonstrators were crashing the gate because they were being threatened and were being told they could not get asylum. These honest, oppressed citizens of Central America just want to escape from a country that the USA itself has ruined over many years with its policies. They are tired, poor huddled masses yearning to breathe free, which according to US law have the right to ask for asylum. The US troops have no right to shoot these people, and to see them as a threat means that your head is in the sand.

[Classic-Xer]

(12-11-2018, 07:20 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(12-11-2018, 01:58 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(12-11-2018, 12:45 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(12-11-2018, 12:57 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(12-11-2018, 12:07 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: Obama was known as the deporter-in-chief, which I would have thought made you happy, considering your usual statements. But Trump has made it worse, without any cause for doing so; separating families, taking men away from their families off the streets, holding immigrants in detention centers, issuing a no-tolerance policy, threatening them with violence, etc. The Obama immigration policy regarding Muslims was very strict, and I don't think your charge against Obama regarding them is correct. Obama and Bush before him and their administrations were good at finding terrorists and stopping them before they could do anything, and at attacking them abroad as well.

Well, it didn't upset me anymore than those pictures upset me and didn't seem to upset the Mexican American voters who voted for Hillary or the liberal news chief or members of the liberal who most likely saw those pictures either. I don't mind if an American president ( any American President) responds to a potential border crisis by sending US troops to back up/reinforce the border patrol as a means to stop 5,000 illegal immigrants who are approaching our southern border in mass who could clash with and overwhelm border security forces in areas. Would you prefer they're dealt with by trained professionals or an angry mod of Americans? I'm glad someone sunk some sense into Obama's head & reminded him which country he was elected to be the President of and who he was suppose to serve before American citizens began taking the law the into their own hands. Now that the blues have regained the House that they lost and the blue Queen seems to have regained the seat that she lost, the blues are going to have to be careful and learn how to submit to the will of the American people because that's what the blues are going to be judged on now. As I've mentioned before, I've never associated the blues with America. I never viewed blues as being American in their views or their values.  I associate the older Democrats like my father in law and their kids as Americans but not the blues. My Democratic friends and casual acquaintance aren't blues which is why I view them as friends and casual acquaintances and don't view them or treat them as adversaries or the enemy so to speak. This is also the reason why, I don't blame them for the stupid shit the blues tend to do and the way the blues tend to act and behave and so forth.

I'm not sure you can make that distinction. Blues is a term that means Democrats.

Do you think the caravan of refugees from Central America thought they could just crash the border and move in? I think they expected an asylum process. By law they are entitled to that process, according to the Courts. Trump's labeling them as criminals and terrorists is his big lie, the one he began his campaign with, and if the reds buy that lie it reflects very poorly upon them. Trump said his troops could shoot the immigrants; that if anything is un-American.

Actually, its not hard to make that determination, I've been doing it for a long time. Why wouldn't they? They crashed through Mexico's southern border or weren't you paying attention to that at the time. As far as I know, US troops can shoot foreigners who attack and threaten the lives of US citizens. You better pull your head out before you have no say in what the American people decide to do about the blue issue and your queen better figure out that most American people are able to make determinations between the Democrats of old and the blues who are running/controlling their party today.

You say you know Democrats today that are not blues. That is false. All Democrats are blue by definition. Blues is a word for Democrats, reds for Republicans. It's just the colors on the map on election day TV. Our "queen" is moderate and even conservative in her voting record compared to other Democrats in congress. If your friends who are Democrats do not support the policies of their representatives in congress, then how do they get elected? Do they vote for the congressperson who represents your district in suburban Minneapolis? You have mentioned your dislike of Keith Ellison before, is he your representative? The suburban district 3 had been Republican and flipped to Democratic in the recent election, I believe.

The demonstrators were crashing the gate because they were being threatened and were being told they could not get asylum. These honest, oppressed citizens of Central America just want to escape from a country that the USA itself has ruined over many years with its policies. They are tired, poor huddled masses yearning to breathe free, which according to US law have the right to ask for asylum. The US troops have no right to shoot these people, and to see them as a threat means that your head is in the sand.

Actually, I live in a suburb of St.Paul in a former Republican district that recently flipped Democratic over the issue of rising healthcare costs. BTW, the same issue was the primary issue that flipped the district that you mentioned. No, I don't like Keith Ellison. But I'm not concerned about him, I figure the issue relating to him is going to eventually catch up with him and force him to leave office. I mean, I don't think being a black politician gives one a right to rough up women anymore than being a black athlete gives one the right to rough up women. I mean, I don't view them as monkey's who don't know any better. I view them as educated people who should know better who don't seem to for whatever reason. Oh well, he's a blue voter problem not mine. He may actually prove to useful while he remains in office.

As far as the caravan folks, are the bulk of them honest or are the bulk of them lying about the reason why they're coming here. BTW, I don't view people who try to lye their way in or those who sneak in as being honest people either. I don't view illegal immigrants who are living here illegally using illegal documents that were illegally obtained to make it seem like they are legal to be here as honest people. I agree, US troops don't have the right to shoot unarmed people for any reason they choose as you implied. I understand that young blues are taught to associate anyone who wears a uniform and carries a gun with fascism. I hope that you understand that the rest us weren't taught to view them the same way. We've been taught to view them a different way and taught to associate them with American law enforcement or American defense. It's one of those, "you don't understand or if you could just understand" differences that I actually do understand much better than you give me credit for understanding and probably accept as being one of the major differences that would have to be settled the old fashioned way with another civil war.

[David Horn]

(12-12-2018, 12:39 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: As far as the caravan folks, are the bulk of them honest or are the bulk of them lying about the reason why they're coming here. BTW, I don't view people who try to lye their way in or those who sneak in as being honest people either. I don't view illegal immigrants who are living here illegally using illegal documents that were illegally obtained to make it seem like they are legal to be here as honest people. I agree, US troops don't have the right to shoot unarmed people for any reason they choose as you implied. I understand that young blues are taught to associate anyone who wears a uniform and carries a gun with fascism. I hope that you understand that the rest us weren't taught to view them the same way. We've been taught to view them a different way and taught to associate them with American law enforcement or American defense. It's one of those, "you don't understand or if you could just understand" differences that I actually do understand much better than you give me credit for understanding and probably accept as being one of the major differences that would have to be settled the old fashioned way with another civil war.

Let's start with the caravan, if that's even the right word for a group of unarmed poor people fleeing danger. Do they all have an asylum right? Probably not, though it's incredibly stupid of us not to try our best to address the problems they face back in their home countries. Having them come or not come is not an open question. They will come if it seems less scary than staying. After all, it's not a trivial journey. Could you walk 1000 miles?

Of those we call illegals, 40% are here legally, though they overstayed their visas. Many, if not most, are skilled tradesmen. "Legals" differ from "illegals" by virtue of H-1B visas, that are a giveaway to large companies, providing highly skilled engineers and other STEM-H professionals to those companies at below market rates. So it comes down to cui bono: who benefits. Arguably, the entire country benefits from immigrants arriving here. The3 real issue: how do we assure native Americans that they are not put at a disadvantage, and that's an entirely different discussion.

And please, give me a break on this hyper-patriotism that pervades the right. Most people in the military or first responders are just doing a job … one that tends to pay well and has good benefits. So do teachers, but they don't seem to get recognized for it. Carrying a gun into a dangerous situation is actually less scary than walking in unarmed.

[Classic-Xer]

(12-12-2018, 11:10 AM)David Horn Wrote: Let's start with the caravan, if that's even the right word for a group of unarmed poor people fleeing danger.  Do they all have an asylum right?  Probably not, though it's incredibly stupid of us not to try our best to address the problems they face back in their home countries.  Having them come or not come is not an open question.  They will come if it seems less scary than staying.  After all, it's not a trivial journey.  Could you walk 1000 miles?

Of those we call illegals, 40% are here legally, though they overstayed their visas.  Many, if not most, are skilled tradesmen.  "Legals" differ from "illegals" by virtue of H-1B visas, that are a giveaway to large companies, providing highly skilled engineers and other STEM-H professionals to those companies at below market rates.  So it comes down to  cui bono: who benefits.  Arguably, the entire country benefits from immigrants arriving here.  The3 real issue: how do we assure native Americans that they are not put at a disadvantage, and that's an entirely different discussion.

And please, give me a break on this hyper-patriotism that pervades the right.  Most people in the military or first responders are just doing a job … one that tends to pay well and has good benefits.  So do teachers, but they don't seem to get recognized for it.  Carrying a gun into a dangerous situation is actually less scary than walking in unarmed.

Does entering illegally or staying illegally really matter when we're talking about legality and legal status? Does term honesty really apply to people who are guilty of stuff that most Americans would most likely view as being dishonest or associate with dishonesty? Dude, the politics has already been shifted to one side (you're side). If you haven't noticed, the Republican voters got rid of some opposition to Trump policies and some who were unable to work as Republicans in the house. I can't blame the Trump supporters for not showing up and supporting a Republican candidate who is opposed to using tariffs or failed to deliver on a promise to replace Obamacare with a bill that's focused on lowering healthcare costs or not supporting a party who doesn't seem to be supportive of him. Nope, I'm going to blame them or label them as deplorable or make excuses for the Republican party and so forth.

So, if illegal immigration primarily benefits wealthy elites and wealthy corporations and proposes a threat to higher wage American workers who are more likely to vote Democratic based on what I've been told by liberals about the makeup of their political base these days. Why are blues opposed to cracking down on illegal immigrants and shoring up border security and tightening up/strengthening our rather lose immigration laws? You're a blue, do you think the money and tax dollars associated with those elites and corporations has something to with their hesitance.

As far as my hyper patriotism as you say, my support of the American military and American law enforcement, where would you be without them? Would you be living in America and enjoying your liberties and all the modern comforts associated with American life and the Constitutional protections that you have now and often display here?

Back in the day, we had two types of teachers. We had teachers who were there to teach and make a living teaching and we had teachers who were there to work as teachers. The teachers who were there to teach were often recognized and often viewed in high regard and remembered as important contributors to our lives and careers. The teachers who there to work and go through the motions associated with their job weren't recognized, weren't viewed in very high regard and most were eventually forgotten. So, I understand why most teachers don't feel they get the recognition and the pay they feel they deserve and so forth. I also understand why most people view most teachers as workers instead of teachers and view them as workers who have rather cozy jobs, a few weeks off for holidays during the school year, several other days off and the entire summer off as well.

[pbrower2a]

(12-13-2018, 12:34 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(12-12-2018, 11:10 AM)David Horn Wrote: Let's start with the caravan, if that's even the right word for a group of unarmed poor people fleeing danger.  Do they all have an asylum right?  Probably not, though it's incredibly stupid of us not to try our best to address the problems they face back in their home countries.  Having them come or not come is not an open question.  They will come if it seems less scary than staying.  After all, it's not a trivial journey.  Could you walk 1000 miles?

Of those we call illegals, 40% are here legally, though they overstayed their visas.  Many, if not most, are skilled tradesmen.  "Legals" differ from "illegals" by virtue of H-1B visas, that are a giveaway to large companies, providing highly skilled engineers and other STEM-H professionals to those companies at below market rates.  So it comes down to  cui bono: who benefits.  Arguably, the entire country benefits from immigrants arriving here.  The3 real issue: how do we assure native Americans that they are not put at a disadvantage, and that's an entirely different discussion.

And please, give me a break on this hyper-patriotism that pervades the right.  Most people in the military or first responders are just doing a job … one that tends to pay well and has good benefits.  So do teachers, but they don't seem to get recognized for it.  Carrying a gun into a dangerous situation is actually less scary than walking in unarmed.

Does entering illegally or staying illegally really matter when we're talking about legality and legal status? Does term honesty really apply to people who are guilty of stuff that most Americans would most likely view as being dishonest or associate with dishonesty? Dude, the politics has already been shifted to one side (you're side). If you haven't noticed, the Republican voters got rid of some opposition to Trump policies and some who were unable to work as Republicans  in the house. I can't blame the Trump supporters for not showing up and supporting a Republican candidate who is opposed to using tariffs or failed to deliver on a promise to replace Obamacare with a bill that's focused on lowering healthcare costs or not supporting a party who doesn't seem to be supportive of him. Nope, I'm going to blame them or label them as deplorable or make excuses for the Republican party and so forth.

Good people do what they must do for the survival of themselves and the welfare of their families. To do anything less would characterize them as complicit in their own misery. 

As far as I can tell, the Republican voters of 2010 and 2014 who were the keys to Republican wave elections going for the GOP sdtill came out to vote if they had not died or become unable to vote. A huge number of people who have not usually voted in midterm elections came out to vote -- people mostly under 40 (largely Millennial with some late-wave X) much more liberal than the electorates of 2010 and 2014. That makes a huge difference in the composition of the House of Representatives and kept Democrats from getting shellacked in the Senate. Republicans can count on keeping most of their typical voters of 2010 and 2014 going to the polls and voting for near-fascists. But consider something that happened in a state that is you state's neighbor to the east: Scott Walker, a vehemently right-wing Governor elected in 2010 and 2014 who has seemingly never found a corporate interest that he did not serve when he had the choice of doing something liberal, was defeated in 2018. Wisconsin is a highly-polarized swing state, but it voted in the Congressional election as if it were a very Blue state.

More people will come out to vote in 2020 than in 2016 or 2018, and the new voters will largely be under 40. In view of the pattern in House elections, such bodes ill for Trump. Democrats outdid Republicans in states that together have 285 electoral votes, a fair warning for 2020. I expect the Presidential vote to be as hostile to Trump in 2020 in those states than it was toward House Republicans, and that will be enough with which about any Democrat can win the electoral votes of enough states. Things will probably be worse for Republicans in Arizona, Florida, Georgia, North Carolina, and Ohio, too.  President Trump will need miracles or extreme dirty work with which to get re-elected. He will not be able to count on Democratic Governors or Secretaries of State in Michigan, Minnesota, Pennsylvania, or Wisconsin to do his electoral dirty work.  

Quote:So, if illegal immigration primarily benefits wealthy elites and wealthy corporations and proposes a threat to higher wage American workers who are more likely to vote Democratic based on what I've been told by liberals about the makeup of their political base these days. Why are blues opposed to cracking down on illegal immigrants and shoring up border security and tightening up/strengthening our rather lose immigration laws? You're a blue, do you think the money and tax dollars associated with those elites and corporations has something to with their hesitance.

It does -- and that is hypocrisy. It helps sweatshop owners who supply cheap clothes to American clothing stores. It aids agribusiness whose giant-scale corporate farmers hire the bulk of illegal aliens who do farm labor or do much of the work in dairy and meat-processing establishments. That could be a divide in the GOP in 2020 -- and in view of the hypocrisy inevitable among people who believe that no human suffering can ever be in excess so long as it allows ostentatious splendor and unrestrained indulgence, that could create some rifts in a cadre Party that deserves them.

There is another side. I am thinking that many Americans, especially Mexican-Americans who will be critical in the Presidential voter in some states in 2020, know an illegal immigrant. That could be an in-law, a good friend, or even a parent or spouse. An administration that does bad things to such people or threatens to do bad things to such people, will have a hard time getting the vote of Mexican-Americans who are US citizens who have some intimacy with such a person. For them the policies of immigration and deportation are not abstractions as they might be to you. Mexican-American culture is strong, and it can assimilate people not Mexican-Americans. Consider this: if you are dating, are you more likely to ask about citizenship status or something else first?

I consider cruelty a major sin -- for all practical purposes the Eighth Deadly Sin, in the realm of destructiveness of anger, lust, gluttony, sloth, greed, envy, and vainglory. (Ninth and Tenth in my 'book' are deceit and cowardice, and I consider the rejection of learning a form of sloth). American voters generally distrust cruelty, deceit, and cowardice as much as they distrust the classic Seven  Deadly Sins.

Quote:As far as my hyper patriotism as you say, my support of the American military and American law enforcement, where would you be without them? Would you be living in America and enjoying your liberties and all the modern comforts associated with American life and the Constitutional protections that you have now and often display here?

At the least they are protecting illegal aliens here too, which is a good idea. Criminals who try to exploit the illegal status of illegal aliens are scum deserving of the full harshness of the American legal and penal system.

Quote:    Back in the day, we had two types of teachers. We had teachers who were there to teach and make a living teaching and we had teachers who were there to work as teachers. The teachers who were there to teach were often recognized and often viewed in high regard and remembered as important contributors  to our  lives and careers. The teachers who there to work and go through the motions associated with their job  weren't recognized, weren't viewed in very high regard and most were eventually forgotten. So, I understand why most teachers don't feel they get the recognition and the pay they feel they deserve and so forth. I also understand why most people view most teachers as workers instead of teachers and view them as workers who have rather cozy jobs, a few weeks off for holidays during the school year, several other days off and the entire summer off as well.

Teaching is work even if it is a delight to the teacher. It is a particular blessing to make a living in an activity that one loves. Indeed teachers are among the lowest-paid professionals, but many would never dream of doing some other work that they consider pure drudgery but that pays better. The best teachers are salespeople, and if I were looking for someone to sell cars I would love to get a teacher out of the classroom and into my showroom to show the wonders of an SUV instead of how the political system works.

The teachers who simply go through the motions usually find themselves doing something more lucrative or are disappointed with their jobs. They may be burnt out.

OK, I recognize that you have done well materially without a college degree, which is fine. I wish more people could succeed like you. Maybe your life  would be richer if you read more and got exposure to great music, art, and literature. You would be no worse at HVAC installation and repair if you experienced rapture while hearing the fourth movement of Beethoven's Seventh Symphony in a concert of the Minnesota Symphony or read a little Dostoevsky. I find Kafka and Orwell highly relevant in discussing how bureaucracies work.

Maybe you never had that teacher who inspired you to develop some curiosity beyond vocational life.  Whether that reflects your teachers or your values is not for me to say. Don't get me wrong; we need good HVAC technicians and installers. Great music and literature are not what I most need should I ever face heatstroke.

[Eric the Green]

(12-13-2018, 12:34 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(12-12-2018, 11:10 AM)David Horn Wrote: Let's start with the caravan, if that's even the right word for a group of unarmed poor people fleeing danger.  Do they all have an asylum right?  Probably not, though it's incredibly stupid of us not to try our best to address the problems they face back in their home countries.  Having them come or not come is not an open question.  They will come if it seems less scary than staying.  After all, it's not a trivial journey.  Could you walk 1000 miles?

Of those we call illegals, 40% are here legally, though they overstayed their visas.  Many, if not most, are skilled tradesmen.  "Legals" differ from "illegals" by virtue of H-1B visas, that are a giveaway to large companies, providing highly skilled engineers and other STEM-H professionals to those companies at below market rates.  So it comes down to  cui bono: who benefits.  Arguably, the entire country benefits from immigrants arriving here.  The3 real issue: how do we assure native Americans that they are not put at a disadvantage, and that's an entirely different discussion.

And please, give me a break on this hyper-patriotism that pervades the right.  Most people in the military or first responders are just doing a job … one that tends to pay well and has good benefits.  So do teachers, but they don't seem to get recognized for it.  Carrying a gun into a dangerous situation is actually less scary than walking in unarmed.

Does entering illegally or staying illegally really matter when we're talking about legality and legal status? Does term honesty really apply to people who are guilty of stuff that most Americans would most likely view as being dishonest or associate with dishonesty? Dude, the politics has already been shifted to one side (you're side). If you haven't noticed, the Republican voters got rid of some opposition to Trump policies and some who were unable to work as Republicans in the house. I can't blame the Trump supporters for not showing up and supporting a Republican candidate who is opposed to using tariffs or failed to deliver on a promise to replace Obamacare with a bill that's focused on lowering healthcare costs or not supporting a party who doesn't seem to be supportive of him. Nope, I'm going to blame them or label them as deplorable or make excuses for the Republican party and so forth.

So, if illegal immigration primarily benefits wealthy elites and wealthy corporations and proposes a threat to higher wage American workers who are more likely to vote Democratic based on what I've been told by liberals about the makeup of their political base these days. Why are blues opposed to cracking down on illegal immigrants and shoring up border security and tightening up/strengthening our rather lose immigration laws? You're a blue, do you think the money and tax dollars associated with those elites and corporations has something to with their hesitance.

What if jobs today are being lost not because of illegal immigration, but because of the behavior of the bosses? The bosses have sent our jobs overseas. They have replaced them with robots. They have cut them back with mergers and buyouts. They have made them useless with lower and lower wages.

Illegal immigrants take the lowest-wage jobs that American whites do not want. So how does that threaten their "higher-wage" jobs? Trump supports a merit system of immigration, which means that it is HIS policy that threatens the jobs of American whites with higher wages.

And although an increase in our population could put pressure on our environment, which must be protected against all threats, it does not hurt the economy per se. More consumers, more good workers, more entrepreneurs is the eventual result of immigration, and that all boosts the economy. In CA, Mexican immigrants are our best workers. They are not criminals, as Trump dishonestly charges. Immigrants commit less crime than others, despite Trump's highlighting of some gangs.

Our immigration policy has not been loose. It is too tight, which fuels more illegal immigration. You yourself posted about people you know who were deported under Obama. The immigration issue was stoked by Trump as a campaign tactic, and it exists for no other reason. That it worked says far more about Americans than about immigrants; it says American fears and prejudices are easily aroused.

Terrorists crossing our border is a very well-guarded threat. Our war on drugs has failed, and even reds are now supporting better tactics than locking up drug users. If we get a better policy of treatment rather than jail, then the drug epidemics could lessen and cross-border drug smuggling become less of a problem. Unfortunately Trump would have one less slogan to use for his campaigns, then.

The blues prefer real solutions to problems than merely arousing fear and prejudice, which is what the reds offer.

Quote:As far as my hyper patriotism as you say, my support of the American military and American law enforcement, where would you be without them? Would you be living in America and enjoying your liberties and all the modern comforts associated with American life and the Constitutional protections that you have now and often display here?

The fact is that most wars and military actions which the USA has been involved in had not the slightest thing to do with protecting our liberties, comforts and constitutional protections-- the latter of which may be in serious danger from our Republican supreme court, and have already been diminished by reducing the power of the voting rights act and by voter suppression laws. Luckily in some places, the gerrymandering is being cut back by the people.

Our law enforcement people know that widespread possession of guns, especially the more-recent military semi-automatics, are a severe threat to law enforcement. But a principle tenet of reds these days is protecting the gun culture and gun obsession rather than enact sensible gun control laws. The guns are a principle reason why police are so trigger happy and get away so often with violating our rights and shooting us for no reason.

[Classic-Xer]

(12-13-2018, 12:30 PM)pbrower2a Wrote:

(12-13-2018, 12:34 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(12-12-2018, 11:10 AM)David Horn Wrote: Let's start with the caravan, if that's even the right word for a group of unarmed poor people fleeing danger.  Do they all have an asylum right?  Probably not, though it's incredibly stupid of us not to try our best to address the problems they face back in their home countries.  Having them come or not come is not an open question.  They will come if it seems less scary than staying.  After all, it's not a trivial journey.  Could you walk 1000 miles?

Of those we call illegals, 40% are here legally, though they overstayed their visas.  Many, if not most, are skilled tradesmen.  "Legals" differ from "illegals" by virtue of H-1B visas, that are a giveaway to large companies, providing highly skilled engineers and other STEM-H professionals to those companies at below market rates.  So it comes down to  cui bono: who benefits.  Arguably, the entire country benefits from immigrants arriving here.  The3 real issue: how do we assure native Americans that they are not put at a disadvantage, and that's an entirely different discussion.

And please, give me a break on this hyper-patriotism that pervades the right.  Most people in the military or first responders are just doing a job … one that tends to pay well and has good benefits.  So do teachers, but they don't seem to get recognized for it.  Carrying a gun into a dangerous situation is actually less scary than walking in unarmed.

Does entering illegally or staying illegally really matter when we're talking about legality and legal status? Does term honesty really apply to people who are guilty of stuff that most Americans would most likely view as being dishonest or associate with dishonesty? Dude, the politics has already been shifted to one side (you're side). If you haven't noticed, the Republican voters got rid of some opposition to Trump policies and some who were unable to work as Republicans  in the house. I can't blame the Trump supporters for not showing up and supporting a Republican candidate who is opposed to using tariffs or failed to deliver on a promise to replace Obamacare with a bill that's focused on lowering healthcare costs or not supporting a party who doesn't seem to be supportive of him. Nope, I'm going to blame them or label them as deplorable or make excuses for the Republican party and so forth.

Good people do what they must do for the survival of themselves and the welfare of their families. To do anything less would characterize them as complicit in their own misery. 

As far as I can tell, the Republican voters of 2010 and 2014 who were the keys to Republican wave elections going for the GOP sdtill came out to vote if they had not died or become unable to vote. A huge number of people who have not usually voted in midterm elections came out to vote -- people mostly under 40 (largely Millennial with some late-wave X) much more liberal than the electorates of 2010 and 2014. That makes a huge difference in the composition of the House of Representatives and kept Democrats from getting shellacked in the Senate. Republicans can count on keeping most of their typical voters of 2010 and 2014 going to the polls and voting for near-fascists. But consider something that happened in a state that is you state's neighbor to the east: Scott Walker, a vehemently right-wing Governor elected in 2010 and 2014 who has seemingly never found a corporate interest that he did not serve when he had the choice of doing something liberal, was defeated in 2018. Wisconsin is a highly-polarized swing state, but it voted in the Congressional election as if it were a very Blue state.

More people will come out to vote in 2020 than in 2016 or 2018, and the new voters will largely be under 40. In view of the pattern in House elections, such bodes ill for Trump. Democrats outdid Republicans in states that together have 285 electoral votes, a fair warning for 2020. I expect the Presidential vote to be as hostile to Trump in 2020 in those states than it was toward House Republicans, and that will be enough with which about any Democrat can win the electoral votes of enough states. Things will probably be worse for Republicans in Arizona, Florida, Georgia, North Carolina, and Ohio, too.  President Trump will need miracles or extreme dirty work with which to get re-elected. He will not be able to count on Democratic Governors or Secretaries of State in Michigan, Minnesota, Pennsylvania, or Wisconsin to do his electoral dirty work.    

Quote:So, if illegal immigration primarily benefits wealthy elites and wealthy corporations and proposes a threat to higher wage American workers who are more likely to vote Democratic based on what I've been told by liberals about the makeup of their political base these days. Why are blues opposed to cracking down on illegal immigrants and shoring up border security and tightening up/strengthening our rather lose immigration laws? You're a blue, do you think the money and tax dollars associated with those elites and corporations has something to with their hesitance.

It does -- and that is hypocrisy. It helps sweatshop owners who supply cheap clothes to American clothing stores. It aids agribusiness whose giant-scale corporate farmers hire the bulk of illegal aliens who do farm labor or do much of the work in dairy and meat-processing establishments. That could be a divide in the GOP in 2020 -- and in view of the hypocrisy inevitable among people who believe that no human suffering can ever be in excess so long as it allows ostentatious splendor and unrestrained indulgence, that could create some rifts in a cadre Party that deserves them.

There is another side. I am thinking that many Americans, especially Mexican-Americans who will be critical in the Presidential voter in some states in 2020, know an illegal immigrant. That could be an in-law, a good friend, or even a parent or spouse. An administration that does bad things to such people or threatens to do bad things to such people, will have a hard time getting the vote of Mexican-Americans who are US citizens who have some intimacy with such a person. For them the policies of immigration and deportation are not abstractions as they might be to you. Mexican-American culture is strong, and it can assimilate people not Mexican-Americans. Consider this: if you are dating, are you more likely to ask about citizenship status or something else first?

I consider cruelty a major sin -- for all practical purposes the Eighth Deadly Sin, in the realm of destructiveness of anger, lust, gluttony, sloth, greed, envy, and vainglory. (Ninth and Tenth in my 'book' are deceit and cowardice, and I consider the rejection of learning a form of sloth). American voters generally distrust cruelty, deceit, and cowardice as much as they distrust the classic Seven  Deadly Sins.

Quote:As far as my hyper patriotism as you say, my support of the American military and American law enforcement, where would you be without them? Would you be living in America and enjoying your liberties and all the modern comforts associated with American life and the Constitutional protections that you have now and often display here?

At the least they are protecting illegal aliens here too, which is a good idea. Criminals who try to exploit the illegal status of illegal aliens are scum deserving of the full harshness of the American legal and penal system.

Quote:    Back in the day, we had two types of teachers. We had teachers who were there to teach and make a living teaching and we had teachers who were there to work as teachers. The teachers who were there to teach were often recognized and often viewed in high regard and remembered as important contributors  to our  lives and careers. The teachers who there to work and go through the motions associated with their job  weren't recognized, weren't viewed in very high regard and most were eventually forgotten. So, I understand why most teachers don't feel they get the recognition and the pay they feel they deserve and so forth. I also understand why most people view most teachers as workers instead of teachers and view them as workers who have rather cozy jobs, a few weeks off for holidays during the school year, several other days off and the entire summer off as well.

Teaching is work even if it is a delight to the teacher. It is a particular blessing to make a living in an activity that one loves. Indeed teachers are among the lowest-paid professionals, but many would never dream of doing some other work that they consider pure drudgery but that pays better. The best teachers are salespeople, and if I were looking for someone to sell cars I would love to get a teacher out of the classroom and into my showroom to show the wonders of an SUV instead of how the political system works.

The teachers who simply go through the motions usually find themselves doing something more lucrative or are disappointed with their jobs. They may be burnt out.

OK, I recognize that you have done well materially without a college degree, which is fine. I wish more people could succeed like you. Maybe your life  would be richer if you read more and got exposure to great music, art, and literature. You would be no worse at HVAC installation and repair if you experienced rapture while hearing the fourth movement of Beethoven's Seventh Symphony in a concert of the Minnesota Symphony or read a little Dostoevsky. I find Kafka and Orwell highly relevant in discussing how bureaucracies work.

Maybe you never had that teacher who inspired you to develop some curiosity beyond vocational life.  Whether that reflects your teachers or your values is not for me to say. Don't get me wrong; we need good HVAC technicians and installers. Great music and literature are not what I most need should I ever face heatstroke.

I'm sorry but sitting around reading books for fun/pleasure and writing personal essays and learning about stuff that doesn't interest me or matter to me and my life just ain't my cup of tea. How much time do you spend reading stuff and learning about stuff and adding more stuff to personal knowledge vs the time spent doing stuff and learning from/by doing stuff and accomplishing stuff. I think you know what I've been doing since I graduated from vocational school/technical college (Fancier term), I haven't been spending time with bunch of former academics, talking with academics, debating with academics, feeding/stroking academic ego's, attempting to impress academic's or fit in with academics and competing with academics for academic stature or prowess and attacking or mocking people who's academic stature isn't perceived as being up to par with theirs or the academic view that they had once established for/of themselves.

[David Horn]

Lots to cover here, so this will be stripes galore.

(12-13-2018, 12:34 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Does entering illegally or staying illegally really matter when we're talking about legality and legal status? Does term honesty really apply to people who are guilty of stuff that most Americans would most likely view as being dishonest or associate with dishonesty?

Yet you, and almost every other person, wants their food sitting in the supermarket and ready to prepare. Most of the people who make that possible are illegals planting and picking crops, working in poultry and meat packing plants and all aspects of the seafood industry. Shall we kick them all out? If so, who preps our food? Then there's the other side: citizens who operate motor vehicles in less than legal manners, who cut corners (cheat) on their taxes, and a myriad of other laws we decide to let go.

C-Xer Wrote:Dude, the politics has already been shifted to one side (you're side). If you haven't noticed, the Republican voters got rid of some opposition to Trump policies and some who were unable to work as Republicans  in the house. I can't blame the Trump supporters for not showing up and supporting a Republican candidate who is opposed to using tariffs or failed to deliver on a promise to replace Obamacare with a bill that's focused on lowering healthcare costs or not supporting a party who doesn't seem to be supportive of him. Nope, I'm going to blame them or label them as deplorable or make excuses for the Republican party and so forth.

A few comments:

• The political balance in this country has never been more tilted to the right -- even during the Gilded Age.
• Obamacare may be flawed (it is), but every option the Republicans have put forth make matters dramatically worse -- and voters know that.
• No one is deplorable unless they chose to be.

C-Xer Wrote:So, if illegal immigration primarily benefits wealthy elites and wealthy corporations and proposes a threat to higher wage American workers who are more likely to vote Democratic based on what I've been told by liberals about the makeup of their political base these days. Why are blues opposed to cracking down on illegal immigrants and shoring up border security and tightening up/strengthening our rather lose immigration laws? You're a blue, do you think the money and tax dollars associated with those elites and corporations has something to with their hesitance.

No, illegal immigration has a lot of issues, but it doesn't harm the most highly skilled and educated. That would be the LEGAL immigrants brought in on H-1B visas.

C-Xer Wrote:As far as my hyper patriotism as you say, my support of the American military and American law enforcement, where would you be without them? Would you be living in America and enjoying your liberties and all the modern comforts associated with American life and the Constitutional protections that you have now and often display here?

The GOP uses the military as a political wedge to get money for military spending we don't need and even the Pentagon doesn't want. Again, law enforcement is used for political purposes more than crime-fighting ones. Crime is down but prisons, more often than not PRIVATE prisons, are bursting at the seams. None of this make any sense, unless you see it as a wedge issue to beat you opponents.

C-Xer Wrote:Back in the day, we had two types of teachers. We had teachers who were there to teach and make a living teaching and we had teachers who were there to work as teachers. The teachers who were there to teach were often recognized and often viewed in high regard and remembered as important contributors  to our  lives and careers. The teachers who there to work and go through the motions associated with their job  weren't recognized, weren't viewed in very high regard and most were eventually forgotten. So, I understand why most teachers don't feel they get the recognition and the pay they feel they deserve and so forth. I also understand why most people view most teachers as workers instead of teachers and view them as workers who have rather cozy jobs, a few weeks off for holidays during the school year, several other days off and the entire summer off as well.

Obviously, you don't know any teachers, nor have you taught yourself. Those summer's off are used to work at their third or fourth job to pay the bills. Almost all teachers have side jobs while they teach. And their supposedly short hours are about half the time they actually put in during the school year. Find a few teachers and ask them.

[Ragnarök_62]

(12-13-2018, 05:05 PM)David Horn Wrote: Lots to cover here, so this will be stripes galore.

(12-13-2018, 12:34 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Does entering illegally or staying illegally really matter when we're talking about legality and legal status? Does term honesty really apply to people who are guilty of stuff that most Americans would most likely view as being dishonest or associate with dishonesty?

Yet you, and almost every other person, wants their food sitting in the supermarket and ready to prepare.  Most of the people who make that possible are illegals planting and picking crops, working in poultry and meat packing plants and all aspects of the seafood industry.  Shall we kick them all out?  If so, who preps our food?  Then there's the other side: citizens who operate motor vehicles in less than legal manners, who cut corners (cheat) on their taxes, and a myriad of other laws we decide to let go.

C-Xer Wrote:Dude, the politics has already been shifted to one side (you're side). If you haven't noticed, the Republican voters got rid of some opposition to Trump policies and some who were unable to work as Republicans  in the house. I can't blame the Trump supporters for not showing up and supporting a Republican candidate who is opposed to using tariffs or failed to deliver on a promise to replace Obamacare with a bill that's focused on lowering healthcare costs or not supporting a party who doesn't seem to be supportive of him. Nope, I'm going to blame them or label them as deplorable or make excuses for the Republican party and so forth.

A few comments:

• The political balance in this country has never been more tilted to the right -- even during the Gilded Age.
  
• Obamacare may be flawed (it is), but every option the Republicans have put forth make matters dramatically worse -- and voters know that.
  
• No one is deplorable unless they chose to be.
  

C-Xer Wrote:So, if illegal immigration primarily benefits wealthy elites and wealthy corporations and proposes a threat to higher wage American workers who are more likely to vote Democratic based on what I've been told by liberals about the makeup of their political base these days. Why are blues opposed to cracking down on illegal immigrants and shoring up border security and tightening up/strengthening our rather lose immigration laws? You're a blue, do you think the money and tax dollars associated with those elites and corporations has something to with their hesitance.

No, illegal immigration has a lot of issues, but it doesn't harm the most highly skilled and educated.  That would be the LEGAL immigrants brought in on H-1B visas.  

C-Xer Wrote:As far as my hyper patriotism as you say, my support of the American military and American law enforcement, where would you be without them? Would you be living in America and enjoying your liberties and all the modern comforts associated with American life and the Constitutional protections that you have now and often display here?

The GOP  uses the military as a political wedge to get money for military spending we don't need and even the Pentagon doesn't want.  Again, law enforcement is used for political purposes more than crime-fighting ones. Crime is down but prisons, more often than not PRIVATE prisons, are bursting at the seams.  None of this make any sense, unless you see it as a wedge issue to beat you opponents.

C-Xer Wrote:Back in the day, we had two types of teachers. We had teachers who were there to teach and make a living teaching and we had teachers who were there to work as teachers. The teachers who were there to teach were often recognized and often viewed in high regard and remembered as important contributors  to our  lives and careers. The teachers who there to work and go through the motions associated with their job  weren't recognized, weren't viewed in very high regard and most were eventually forgotten. So, I understand why most teachers don't feel they get the recognition and the pay they feel they deserve and so forth. I also understand why most people view most teachers as workers instead of teachers and view them as workers who have rather cozy jobs, a few weeks off for holidays during the school year, several other days off and the entire summer off as well.

Obviously, you don't know any teachers, nor have you taught yourself.  Those summer's off are used to work at their third or fourth job to pay the bills.  Almost all teachers have side jobs while they teach.  And their supposedly short hours are about half the time they actually put in during the school year.  Find a few teachers and ask them.

I have to go with C-Xer here but for different reasons. The US has a good thing going for it with a crashing birth rate. Now we need to close the border to get 0 or negative population growth.  The population's to damn high. I'd rather take a voluntary population reduction instead of mother earth smacking it down. Always remember and never forget, perpetual growth is the philosophy of a cancer cell. As far as the work done by illegal aliens, well, it the labor supply is shut off, meat packing plants etc. can improve wages and working conditions or just shut down as far as I'm concerned. With that in mind, any company that hires illegals needs a big fat fine and if the violation is too egregious , then the owners go off to jail. These companies really need to just automate their work anyway. That's the best option and they need a swift kick in the ass with a steel toed boot to get going.

Tariffs:  Trump is messed up.  A VAT/single payer proposal is much better, IMHO.

Teachers, etc. I have lots of kinfolk who are/were teachers. Teaching is not a cozy job. First the pay sucks. Next, you spend a lot of time drawing up lesson plans and grading papers. They also have professional days so they can keep up with what they teach. Finally, they have to put up with kids, some of which aren't that well disciplined.  Finally, they have to put up with a lot of political bullshit. You know like dumb ideas of being armed bodyguards.

Crime: Tough on crime bullshit. Doing weed and other victimless crimes should not merit jailtime. We have Oklahoma Republican wahoos that spout this crap all of the time.

Military: What can I say. The defense budge needs to be 10% of what it is now. We co not need our wars of choice nor 800+ bases strewn all over the world. Europe has more people and a higher GDP that we do. Let them take care of themselves. Dissolve NATO. It's time has past.
Russia wants nothing to do with those other Eastern European countries. They're poor, hostile to Russia, and dysfunctional. I see no motive for Russia wanting to invade them.

[pbrower2a]

(12-13-2018, 05:05 PM)David Horn Wrote: Lots to cover here, so this will be stripes galore.

(12-13-2018, 12:34 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Does entering illegally or staying illegally really matter when we're talking about legality and legal status? Does term honesty really apply to people who are guilty of stuff that most Americans would most likely view as being dishonest or associate with dishonesty?

Yet you, and almost every other person, wants their food sitting in the supermarket and ready to prepare.  Most of the people who make that possible are illegals planting and picking crops, working in poultry and meat packing plants and all aspects of the seafood industry.  Shall we kick them all out?  If so, who preps our food?  Then there's the other side: citizens who operate motor vehicles in less than legal manners, who cut corners (cheat) on their taxes, and a myriad of other laws we decide to let go.

Oh, the hypocrisy! C-Xer has surely not studied college-level economics. I'm not saying that he should plant and pick crops or work in a slaughterhouse to get knowledge of the reality behind the pre-packaged food in some hypermarket. As a rule we tell law enforcement, including the INS, to look the other way about people horribly overworked and underpaid whose absence would gut our delusion of a prosperous world of comparative ease.

 

Quote:

C-Xer Wrote:Dude, the politics has already been shifted to one side (you're side). If you haven't noticed, the Republican voters got rid of some opposition to Trump policies and some who were unable to work as Republicans  in the house. I can't blame the Trump supporters for not showing up and supporting a Republican candidate who is opposed to using tariffs or failed to deliver on a promise to replace Obamacare with a bill that's focused on lowering healthcare costs or not supporting a party who doesn't seem to be supportive of him. Nope, I'm going to blame them or label them as deplorable or make excuses for the Republican party and so forth.

A few comments:

• The political balance in this country has never been more tilted to the right -- even during the Gilded Age.
  
• Obamacare may be flawed (it is), but every option the Republicans have put forth make matters dramatically worse -- and voters know that.
  
• No one is deplorable unless they chose to be.

Liar and fool that Trump is -- and he is even more deluded about the commercial food chain than C-X'er is, Trump contradicts himself and cannot accept wthat even conservatives cannot justify. They may love Donald Trump's promises of tax cuts and regulatory relaxation on behalf of the Master Class of heirs and executives... but they also like imports as pressure upon the working people to work harder and longer for less and as a reward for compliance with a one of the purest plutocracies in the world.

The Master Class is cruel, as is reflected in the politicians that it supports. Its idea of appropriate healthcare is that whoever is no longer convenient to them can get sick and run out of funds and die. That elite want profits-first medicine just as it wants profits-first real estate, transportation, and food. It tolerates welfare in part because people with SNAP cards are more likely to make profitable purchases of foodstuffs (even if those are sodas and snacks) than to shoplift food from a store.

People can choose to believe what they want even if such beliefs are themselves deplorable. But reality sets in. I see white folks of the economic wreck that is the Mountain South as no better off than many of the black and Hispanic proletariat who have no illusion that the Master Class is their friend. Let's not forget that the poor white salt-of-the-earth of Appalachia and the Ozarks were among the most fervent supporters of the New Deal, and if they should get an offer of a 21st-century equivalent of the New Deal, then their politics will make a 180-degree turn that makes profits-first government impossible.

Quote:

C-Xer Wrote:So, if illegal immigration primarily benefits wealthy elites and wealthy corporations and proposes a threat to higher wage American workers who are more likely to vote Democratic based on what I've been told by liberals about the makeup of their political base these days. Why are blues opposed to cracking down on illegal immigrants and shoring up border security and tightening up/strengthening our rather lose immigration laws? You're a blue, do you think the money and tax dollars associated with those elites and corporations has something to with their hesitance.

No, illegal immigration has a lot of issues, but it doesn't harm the most highly skilled and educated.  That would be the LEGAL immigrants brought in on H-1B visas.  

Again, people holding H-1B visas are at the mercy of exploitative employers. I would like to see such visas turn into citizenship so that those here on such a visa can participate fully in the American consumer society and -- yes -- the gene pool. Being overworked and underpaid is one definition of exploitation.

It is up to our economic elites to decide whether what Marx says of capitalism is true or whether such is false when democracy is gone or at least gutted. The problem is that our politicians all too often heed campaign contributions and hence corporate lobbyists instead of their constituents that include people who do the picking and packing or tun the cash register.

OK, so maybe those elites are wise enough to give us a taste of liberal democracy so that things don't go so bad that we have a Fidel Castro in the wings.

Quote:

C-Xer Wrote:As far as my hyper patriotism as you say, my support of the American military and American law enforcement, where would you be without them? Would you be living in America and enjoying your liberties and all the modern comforts associated with American life and the Constitutional protections that you have now and often display here?

The GOP  uses the military as a political wedge to get money for military spending we don't need and even the Pentagon doesn't want.  Again, law enforcement is used for political purposes more than crime-fighting ones. Crime is down but prisons, more often than not PRIVATE prisons, are bursting at the seams.  None of this make any sense, unless you see it as a wedge issue to beat you opponents.

Precisely. Military spending is largely about procurement of military weapons, and all that is needed to force some more purchases of expensive tools of war is a war itself, ideally a war for profits. I think of what Donald Trump wants for Cuba -- a place safe for Trump resorts.

Quote:

C-Xer Wrote:Back in the day, we had two types of teachers. We had teachers who were there to teach and make a living teaching and we had teachers who were there to work as teachers. The teachers who were there to teach were often recognized and often viewed in high regard and remembered as important contributors  to our  lives and careers. The teachers who there to work and go through the motions associated with their job  weren't recognized, weren't viewed in very high regard and most were eventually forgotten. So, I understand why most teachers don't feel they get the recognition and the pay they feel they deserve and so forth. I also understand why most people view most teachers as workers instead of teachers and view them as workers who have rather cozy jobs, a few weeks off for holidays during the school year, several other days off and the entire summer off as well.

Obviously, you don't know any teachers, nor have you taught yourself.  Those summer's off are used to work at their third or fourth job to pay the bills.  Almost all teachers have side jobs while they teach.  And their supposedly short hours are about half the time they actually put in during the school year.  Find a few teachers and ask them.

[/quote]

The full-time teachers spend time not in the classroom grading papers, and that has to be disconcerting. The teachers find out the hard way whether the kids are paying attention. I've had a taste of it in teaching some "Sweathogs". In a course on consumer habits I excoriated rent-to-own ripoffs as horrible places in which to get stuff. I suggested that people either go to used-goods places or ask downsizing relatives to let them have obsolete stuff that those relatives (typically people going from large suburban houses to smaller apartments while retired) for things that those people would likely cast off. Yes, you can get a VHS player and recorded videotapes dirt-cheap. Or perhaps you can scrimp and save and get cash to buy stuff in "Wally World" after brown-bagging lunch instead of going to a fast-food place for a couple of months. I got to see how these kids received my lesson. One said roughly "Get it now at 'Pay Too Much For Too Long'", using an advertising slogan from a rent-to-own place that advertises on schlock TV. I will not name names.

Then there is bad grammar and sloppy math. A teacher gets to learn how receptive his students are. Maybe had I taken education as a college course I would have been lucky to end up with students whose parents saw education as their sole means of escape from poverty. Maybe I would have ended up in California's Central Valley, which is an economic and cultural cesspool much like the Mountain South.

Yes, much of the success of students depends upon how parents see education. Parents who had a poor attitude toward education when they were kids are likely to show perverse sympathy with a child who complains that "The mean teacher criticized my grammar, and I don't need no stinkin' grammar". (Note the double negative and the dropped "g". Those who say such things might as well paste a paper on their backs that reads "KICK ME" because that is what figuratively happens to them). This is even more important than race, ethnicity, or current economics in deciding who gets to live sort-of-OK lives in our plutocratic order.

[Classic-Xer]

(12-13-2018, 01:01 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: The blues prefer real solutions to problems than merely arousing fear and prejudice, which is what the reds offer.

Well, as one who is supposedly an evil, sexist, racist, fascist, Bible thumping white male, I'm going to have to disagree this for OBVIOUS reasons that you seem unable to see with your own eyes, hear with your own ears or recognize/accept with your own mind for some reason or another. Now, I don't know what your problem is and what your problem is caused by or what your problem is about to be honest because your a dead man or a liberal slave or a poor liberal peasant who has no say or choice, as far as I'm concerned. Who kills you or enslaves you or threatens you and which angry blue group ends up doing it or is picked to round you up or controls you with fear doesn't really matter to me either like most blue problems and issues relating to blue problem areas don't matter to me or reds in general.

[Bob Butler 54]

(12-14-2018, 02:01 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(12-13-2018, 01:01 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: The blues prefer real solutions to problems than merely arousing fear and prejudice, which is what the reds offer.

Well, as one who is supposedly an evil, sexist, racist, fascist, Bible thumping white male, I'm going to have to disagree this for OBVIOUS reasons that you seem unable to see with your own eyes, hear with your own ears or recognize/accept with your own mind for some reason or another. Now, I don't know what your problem is and what your problem is caused by or what your problem is about  to be honest because your a dead man or a liberal slave or a poor liberal peasant who has no say or choice, as far as I'm concerned. Who kills you or enslaves you or threatens you and which angry blue group ends up doing it or is picked to round you up or controls you with fear doesn't really matter to me either like most blue problems and issues relating to blue problem areas don't matter to me or reds in general.

In reading these pages, I don't read them as presenting fact, but as presenting worldviews, and quite often vile stereotypes.  As such they are often very much incorrect.  

In this case, not all reds are evil, sexist, racist, fascist, Bible thumping white males.  If anyone had claimed they were, they would have one messed up worldview.  As is, a red person claimed it as a common blue stereotype, when if fact is is a common red stereotype of blues.  It reflects poorly primarily on how Classic sees things.

Neither is it only fear and prejudice the reds offer, or only fear and prejudice that most reds offer.  That is clear to me, and discredits Eric totally.  His world view is simply inaccurate.

And pardon me if I believe extremists yelling inaccurate worldviews and vile stereotypes at each other is not a very constructive process.

[Classic-Xer]

(12-13-2018, 05:05 PM)David Horn Wrote: Lots to cover here, so this will be stripes galore.

(12-13-2018, 12:34 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Does entering illegally or staying illegally really matter when we're talking about legality and legal status? Does term honesty really apply to people who are guilty of stuff that most Americans would most likely view as being dishonest or associate with dishonesty?

Yet you, and almost every other person, wants their food sitting in the supermarket and ready to prepare.  Most of the people who make that possible are illegals planting and picking crops, working in poultry and meat packing plants and all aspects of the seafood industry.  Shall we kick them all out?  If so, who preps our food?  Then there's the other side: citizens who operate motor vehicles in less than legal manners, who cut corners (cheat) on their taxes, and a myriad of other laws we decide to let go.

C-Xer Wrote:Dude, the politics has already been shifted to one side (you're side). If you haven't noticed, the Republican voters got rid of some opposition to Trump policies and some who were unable to work as Republicans  in the house. I can't blame the Trump supporters for not showing up and supporting a Republican candidate who is opposed to using tariffs or failed to deliver on a promise to replace Obamacare with a bill that's focused on lowering healthcare costs or not supporting a party who doesn't seem to be supportive of him. Nope, I'm going to blame them or label them as deplorable or make excuses for the Republican party and so forth.

A few comments:

• The political balance in this country has never been more tilted to the right -- even during the Gilded Age.
  
• Obamacare may be flawed (it is), but every option the Republicans have put forth make matters dramatically worse -- and voters know that.
  
• No one is deplorable unless they chose to be.
  

C-Xer Wrote:So, if illegal immigration primarily benefits wealthy elites and wealthy corporations and proposes a threat to higher wage American workers who are more likely to vote Democratic based on what I've been told by liberals about the makeup of their political base these days. Why are blues opposed to cracking down on illegal immigrants and shoring up border security and tightening up/strengthening our rather lose immigration laws? You're a blue, do you think the money and tax dollars associated with those elites and corporations has something to with their hesitance.

No, illegal immigration has a lot of issues, but it doesn't harm the most highly skilled and educated.  That would be the LEGAL immigrants brought in on H-1B visas.  

C-Xer Wrote:As far as my hyper patriotism as you say, my support of the American military and American law enforcement, where would you be without them? Would you be living in America and enjoying your liberties and all the modern comforts associated with American life and the Constitutional protections that you have now and often display here?

The GOP  uses the military as a political wedge to get money for military spending we don't need and even the Pentagon doesn't want.  Again, law enforcement is used for political purposes more than crime-fighting ones. Crime is down but prisons, more often than not PRIVATE prisons, are bursting at the seams.  None of this make any sense, unless you see it as a wedge issue to beat you opponents.

C-Xer Wrote:Back in the day, we had two types of teachers. We had teachers who were there to teach and make a living teaching and we had teachers who were there to work as teachers. The teachers who were there to teach were often recognized and often viewed in high regard and remembered as important contributors  to our  lives and careers. The teachers who there to work and go through the motions associated with their job  weren't recognized, weren't viewed in very high regard and most were eventually forgotten. So, I understand why most teachers don't feel they get the recognition and the pay they feel they deserve and so forth. I also understand why most people view most teachers as workers instead of teachers and view them as workers who have rather cozy jobs, a few weeks off for holidays during the school year, several other days off and the entire summer off as well.

Obviously, you don't know any teachers, nor have you taught yourself.  Those summer's off are used to work at their third or fourth job to pay the bills.  Almost all teachers have side jobs while they teach.  And their supposedly short hours are about half the time they actually put in during the school year.  Find a few teachers and ask them.

Well, next time you should pick one paragraph like I try to do with you guys because addressing issues this way sucks. Now, I think the Republicans probably got the message their independent supporters sent to them which resulted in the loss they took in the House. Evidently, the women who wear the pants and are in charge of managing the family check book or their personal check and paying the bills want something DONE about the increases in healthcare cost that they've been seeing/feeling for years.

[Classic-Xer]

(12-14-2018, 04:12 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(12-14-2018, 02:01 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(12-13-2018, 01:01 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: The blues prefer real solutions to problems than merely arousing fear and prejudice, which is what the reds offer.

Well, as one who is supposedly an evil, sexist, racist, fascist, Bible thumping white male, I'm going to have to disagree this for OBVIOUS reasons that you seem unable to see with your own eyes, hear with your own ears or recognize/accept with your own mind for some reason or another. Now, I don't know what your problem is and what your problem is caused by or what your problem is about  to be honest because your a dead man or a liberal slave or a poor liberal peasant who has no say or choice, as far as I'm concerned. Who kills you or enslaves you or threatens you and which angry blue group ends up doing it or is picked to round you up or controls you with fear doesn't really matter to me either like most blue problems and issues relating to blue problem areas don't matter to me or reds in general.

In reading these pages, I don't read them as presenting fact, but as presenting worldviews, and quite often vile stereotypes.  As such they are often very much incorrect.  

In this case, not all reds are evil, sexist, racist, fascist, Bible thumping white males.  If anyone had claimed they were, they would have one messed up worldview.  As is, a red person claimed it as a common blue stereotype, when if fact is is a common red stereotype of blues.  It reflects poorly primarily on how Classic sees things.

Neither is it only fear and prejudice the reds offer, or only fear and prejudice that most reds offer.  That is clear to me, and discredits Eric totally.  His world view is simply inaccurate.

And pardon me if I believe extremists yelling inaccurate worldviews and vile stereotypes at each other is not a very constructive process.

Well, all I can say, the obvious expressions of anger and discontent and the vile responses and my negative view of blues and their politicians have nothing to do with stereotypes of blues. I don't think you know how often we are seeing and hearing the blues these days. I hope the blues realize we live in a different age and I hope they understand that most, if not all reds make enough money to afford computers, TV's internet, cable TV, smart phones, newspapers and so forth. So, you should not view and automatically associate everything bad that we say about them and about the blues and see them say on a regular basis with foolish stereotypes. Oh, the faster you accept that reds aren't like the blues in many ways, the sooner you'll be able to understand what you will and will not be able to get away with and what you will be unable to obtain or accomplish and where we will be able to comprise on some issues.

[Bob Butler 54]

(12-14-2018, 09:20 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Well, all I can say, the obvious expressions of anger and discontent and the vile responses and my negative view of blues and their politicians have nothing to do with stereotypes of blues.

Could have fooled me.

(12-14-2018, 09:20 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: I don't think you know how often we are seeing and hearing the blues these days.

About as often as the blues hear the reds I'd guess.  Far too often.

(12-14-2018, 09:20 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: I hope the blues realize we live in a different age and I hope they understand that most, if not all reds make enough money to afford computers, TV's internet, cable TV, smart phones, newspapers and so forth. So, you should not view and automatically associate everything bad that we say about them and about the blues and see them say on a regular basis with foolish stereotypes. Oh, the faster you accept that reds aren't like the blues in many ways, the sooner you'll be able to understand what you will and will not be able to get away with and what you will be unable to obtain or accomplish  and where we will be able to comprise on some issues.

The different age the reds live in would include reflections of the Agricultural Age.  Reds want various aspects of yesterday.  

Some do not see it as necessary to act on environmental issues such as global warming, where blues who live in higher population areas generally see the necessity more.  

Some wish to keep traditional privilege, prejudice or ethics.  They see as American the faults of yesterday rather than the attempts to fix them.  

Some believe that if they can get rid of the elite Washington aspect of the Republican Party, if they could condemn the Republican establishment, they could find a way to make the obsolete and dangerous Reaganomic pattern work.  They do not see the value of small government as long since reaching the point of diminishing return.  They value independent and local action rather than larger and more universal one size fits all solutions.  They do not realize that it was the willingness to attack any problem, to tax and spend their way to answers, as that which made America great.

Etc...

But it would be a mistake to believe that all reds are alike, that all reds have all the traits attributed and displayed by any reds.  Of that belief is many a vile stereotype born, but that does not make any of the individual issues go away.  The blues have a similar set of vile stereotypes which is equably simplistic as a whole.  Repeating the stereotype is false, boring and generally rejected by blues as obviously wrong.  If someone hears a stereotype of one's self which is obviously wrong, one can reject everything that that person says as crude and false.  You have to address each issue separately, one at a time, rather than spew the whole stereotype.

[David Horn]

(12-13-2018, 05:53 PM)Ragnarök_62 Wrote: I have to go with C-Xer here but for different reasons. The US has a good thing going for it with a crashing birth rate. Now we need to close the border to get 0 or negative population growth.  The population's to damn high. I'd rather take a voluntary population reduction instead of mother earth smacking it down. Always remember and never forget, perpetual growth is the philosophy of a cancer cell. As far as the work done by illegal aliens, well, it the labor supply is shut off, meat packing plants etc. can improve wages and working conditions or just shut down as far as I'm concerned. With that in mind, any company that hires illegals needs a big fat fine and if the violation is too egregious , then the owners go off to jail. These companies really need to just automate their work anyway. That's the best option and they need a swift kick in the ass with a steel toed boot to get going.

We'll have to disagree on most of this.

POPULATION: The carrying level of earth is not infinite, that's for sure, but the US in an underpopulated nation. If we had India's landmass and population, I'd be with you 100%.

FOOD: I'm not a fan of the food industry, but I know that boutique food prepared by well paid workers is out of the question. First, the cost is astronomical. We can't function on bread that costs $8 to $20 a loaf, or meat that's $20 to $100 a pound. More to the point, if we press that, the entire industry will immediately begin the transition to robots, which is inevitable in the long run but will starve a lot of people in the short run. I don't have any answers here, but, for now, we need the corrupt system we have.

[Eric the Green]

(12-14-2018, 04:12 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(12-14-2018, 02:01 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(12-13-2018, 01:01 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: The blues prefer real solutions to problems than merely arousing fear and prejudice, which is what the reds offer.

Well, as one who is supposedly an evil, sexist, racist, fascist, Bible thumping white male, I'm going to have to disagree this for OBVIOUS reasons that you seem unable to see with your own eyes, hear with your own ears or recognize/accept with your own mind for some reason or another. Now, I don't know what your problem is and what your problem is caused by or what your problem is about  to be honest because your a dead man or a liberal slave or a poor liberal peasant who has no say or choice, as far as I'm concerned. Who kills you or enslaves you or threatens you and which angry blue group ends up doing it or is picked to round you up or controls you with fear doesn't really matter to me either like most blue problems and issues relating to blue problem areas don't matter to me or reds in general.

In reading these pages, I don't read them as presenting fact, but as presenting worldviews, and quite often vile stereotypes.  As such they are often very much incorrect.  

In this case, not all reds are evil, sexist, racist, fascist, Bible thumping white males.  If anyone had claimed they were, they would have one messed up worldview.  As is, a red person claimed it as a common blue stereotype, when if fact is is a common red stereotype of blues.  It reflects poorly primarily on how Classic sees things.

Neither is it only fear and prejudice the reds offer, or only fear and prejudice that most reds offer.  That is clear to me, and discredits Eric totally.  His world view is simply inaccurate.

And pardon me if I believe extremists yelling inaccurate worldviews and vile stereotypes at each other is not a very constructive process.

Certainly I don't say that those who vote red are locked in fear and prejudice all the time. As Trump might say, "and some, I assume, are good people"

But yes, the red politics today is almost entirely built upon fear and prejudice. 

Their main tenets are:

1. Trickle-down economics; aka Free market fanaticism, self-reliance individualism, neo-liberalism, classical liberal economics, libertarian economics, supply-side economics, social darwinism, laissez faire, Reaganomics, etc.

In moderation, these principles have their place. Self-reliance is an essential virtue for a functioning society and economy, and entrepreneurs provide much benefit to them. But the Republican Party today does not take a moderate stance on these issues. The Freedom Caucus and the Tea Party predominate, and the rest are largely Reaganomics believers.

This extremist free-market philosophy is built upon fear of higher taxes and regulations. Were it sensible, this libertarian economics view would take into account the need for taxes and regulations and social programs, and realize that they are needed to some degree at least, and benefit everyone. The reds today want to eliminate them. It is proclaimed instead that if tax breaks, subsidies and "regulatory relief" are given to "job creaters" (W. Bush pronunication), then their good fortune will lift all boats and the benefits will trickle-down to the poor and everyone. In reality, of course, the "job creaters" destroy jobs in the manifold ways we all know about, and make everyone except the wealthy poor.

This extremist economics is also based on prejudice, because it is largely aimed at the poor. "Liberals" are assumed to be asking for "other people's money" to be forcibly used to give "free stuff" to freeloaders. You will hear this line every time from virtually every Republican. And these freeloaders are frequently assumed to be people of color and immigrants. The dog whistle of anti-welfare slogans is an essential part of the Republican program. Opposition to regulations and taxes also predisposes them to be against many essential laws, such as environmental protection, worker safety and fair wages, health care reform, etc. Free enterprise is trustworthy and should be left to its own devices, they say.

No doubt, certain Republican politicians are capable of moderating their stance on this at times, and we can hope they will, and we can think that they can; but those times have been woefully few in recent years. Thus, their policy is indeed based on fear and prejudice, and this is not a stereotype. We may hope and pray for increased bi-partisanship and compromise, and many voters do want this, or at least say they do. Our current election system empowers the extremes, however, and Republicans oppose reform on neo-liberal grounds.

2. Social conservatism of various stripes. On this issue the prejudice is more overt. Republicans promote theocracy, the principle that fundamentalist Christianity should dictate many policies. Also called the Religious Right, this tenet of the Republican party puts opposition to abortion rights at the top of their agenda. Again, this issue could be compromised, but neither side is willing, especially the right-wing. Also on the agenda is prayer and the 10 commandments in public places, creationism in school textbooks, anti-homosexual and transgender rights and laws against them, the contention that allowing shopkeepers to discriminate against gays is "religious freedom," anti-women's rights and feminism, also known as traditional family values, and so on. This tenet is supported by red voters who decide to "vote their values." 

In many southern and other border and red states, the fear of blacks and people of color getting greater position and power still impels many if not most white voters there to vote by race, and the people of color follow suit. Whites vote Republican, people of color vote Democratic.

3. Militarism. This issue is related to social conservatism, and proclaims that our country's war policies should be supported whether they are right or wrong. Huge military expenditures are needed to keep our nation #1, and anti-terrorist measures should include keeping people of other religions and races out of our country as much as possible, especially if they are from those nations that have any supposed relationship to terrorism. This fanatical view is based on fear of other peoples and races taking over our country, and the fear that unless our country is top dog, we are vulnerable to attack. Red states support the armed forces and host the majority of military bases in the USA. Neo-conservatives go so far as to believe that the USA should establish and maintain an American empire. This was the basis for the war against Iraq begun in 2003.

Another aspect of militarism is that the people of the USA should be armed as part of the national militia. Despite believing that their country is to be supported whether right or wrong, they still don't trust the police or the army to protect them. Since crime (usually by "those other people") is rampant, and police are far away, citizens should have the right to own and buy military weapons, they say, and it is assumed that this includes all semi-automatic guns and large magazines. Again, compromise is possible on this issue, but most of the Republicans are against any compromise and totally do the NRA's bidding. The result is gun violence that kills thousands of people every year, far more than in all other developed countries, which don't have a second amendment or a gun obsession. Republicans turn a blind eye.

It is up to the Republicans to moderate these positions if they don't want to be the white man's party of fear and prejudice. Until they do, my description of them as such is totally accurate. It is up to the people to realize this, and vote them out.

[Eric the Green]

I think I should give credit where credit is due. The Senate is at times a place where bipartisan compromise occasionally happens. This may now be also true in the new House in 2019, although now the Senate will be tilted further to the right, and Trump will need only 7 instead of the 10 Democrats he says he needs to support his unwise and extreme policies.

On the Newshour it was reported that two compromise bills were passed in the Senate recently. Senators Grassley and Durbin were leaders in this, and Trump is supporting them. Criminal justice reform will increase the likelihood that prison sentences will fit the crime and that rehabilitation will be available. Drug and other non-violent offenders will have increased access to treatment. Another bipartisan farm bill was passed, which gives price supports to farmers and also restores money for food stamps. Extremist anti-environmental elements were taken out of the bill. I believe the White House is supporting this bill as well.

In earlier times, bipartisan immigration reform passed the Senate and was killed in the House. Now Trump is at loggerheads with Democrats on this issue.

[Classic-Xer]

(12-15-2018, 03:33 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: I think I should give credit where credit is due. The Senate is at times a place where bipartisan compromise occasionally happens. This may now be also true in the new House in 2019, although now the Senate will be tilted further to the right, and Trump will need only 7 instead of the 10 Democrats he says he needs to support his unwise and extreme policies.

On the Newshour it was reported that two compromise bills were passed in the Senate recently. Senators Grassley and Durbin were leaders in this, and Trump is supporting them. Criminal justice reform will increase the likelihood that prison sentences will fit the crime and that rehabilitation will be available. Drug and other non-violent offenders will have increased access to treatment. Another bipartisan farm bill was passed, which gives price supports to farmers and also restores money for food stamps. Extremist anti-environmental elements were taken out of the bill. I believe the White House is supporting this bill as well.

In earlier times, bipartisan immigration reform passed the Senate and was killed in the House. Now Trump is at loggerheads with Democrats on this issue.

Of coarse, the situation is much different now. We have a Republican Senate that isn't going to vote against Trump and slit their own throats like Democrats. We have a Republican in the White House who doesn't care about his image with the liberal press. Trump has one Democratic leader to contend with in the House who seems to be opposed to adding more AMERICAN border security which Americans know is unpopular with the her supporters and unpopular with the world but seems to have the support by most American citizens/voters these days. So, it's up to her whether she wants to start her second reign as Speaker with a government shutdown that she can't defend herself or defend her position against the criticism coming from unhappy Americans on her side who will  be loosing wages for the sake of illegal immigration.