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The Maelstrom of Violence
From my perspective, this is starting to get very scary. My stance on Jan 6th is the same as it was last week, and the weeks before that - violent groups exist on the fringes of both sides. Everyone is very good at looking at their side and saying 'well, that group doesn't really represent 95% of my side, they are just a distraction the other team uses.' I hear that from people justifying rioters burning down billions in property and killing over 30 people and I hear that from people justifying Charlottesville and the Capitol breach alike. When push comes to shove, they both usually start blaming 'provocateurs' and muttering about false flags.

The similarity of how groups think would be scary if it wasn't utterly predictable form a sociological behavior standpoint.

Anyway, the thing I have a very hard time believing is that elected government officials, especially at the national level, would go beyond the usual excuses and 'what-about-a-lism' to actively assisting and engaging in planning a violent assault *on themselves*.

That this is even part of the national conversation, especially without names or any proof furnished as part of the accusation, is the beginning of a dangerous path. Despite pretty much every national level Republican or Republican sympathizer in politics, media, and/or alternative media condemning the events of Jan 6th, the narrative being shaped is that not only were the perpetrators on the right, but all Republicans are evil people who either tacitly or actively support this.

Either the people making the accusation are irresponsible, they are so far into their bubble they legitimately are unable to see their colleagues as human, or they are making a cynical ploy to justify exclusion or outright removal of any Republican who stands in their way. I've read enough on this board to know some of you would be perfectly happy with that because you are also so far into your in-group and the crisis mindset that you have no problem with stomping all over half the country. From where I stand, this is what totalitarianism looks like.

There better be either a complete and public exoneration (including a censure of Rep. Sherrill for circulating this rumor in the first place) or a hell of a lot of proof for me to not see this as Democratic politicians acting in bad faith for the purposes of hurting people they disagree with.

Forgive my impassioned ranting, I've said all along it wasn't the events that alarmed me so much as the response and this is exactly what I mean. I never thought I would live in an America where one major party didn't just impugn the other but sought to convict them as traitors. How this doesn't end in bloodshed and terror is becoming increasingly something I can't see.
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(01-14-2021, 03:14 PM)mamabug Wrote: From my perspective, this is starting to get very scary.  My stance on Jan 6th is the same as it was last week, and the weeks before that - violent groups exist on the fringes of both sides.   Everyone is very good at looking at their side and saying 'well, that group doesn't really represent 95% of my side, they are just a distraction the other team uses.'  I hear that from people justifying rioters burning down billions in property and killing over 30 people and I hear that from people justifying Charlottesville and the Capitol breach alike.  When push comes to shove, they both usually start blaming 'provocateurs' and muttering about false flags.

The similarity of how groups think would be scary if it wasn't utterly predictable form a sociological behavior standpoint.

Anyway, the thing I have a very hard time believing is that elected government officials, especially at the national level, would go beyond the usual excuses and 'what-about-a-lism' to actively assisting and engaging in planning a violent assault *on themselves*.

That this is even part of the national conversation, especially without names or any proof furnished as part of the accusation, is the beginning of a dangerous path.  Despite pretty much every national level Republican or Republican sympathizer in politics, media, and/or alternative media condemning the events of Jan 6th, the narrative being shaped is that not only were the perpetrators on the right, but all Republicans are evil people who either tacitly or actively support this.  

Either the people making the accusation are irresponsible, they are so far into their bubble they legitimately are unable to see their colleagues as human, or they are making a cynical ploy to justify exclusion or outright removal of any Republican who stands in their way.  I've read enough on this board to know some of you would be perfectly happy with that because you are also so far into your in-group and the crisis mindset that you have no problem with stomping all over half the country.  From where I stand, this is what totalitarianism looks like.

There better be either a complete and public exoneration (including a censure of Rep. Sherrill for circulating this rumor in the first place) or a hell of a lot of proof for me to not see this as Democratic politicians acting in bad faith for the purposes of hurting people they disagree with.

Forgive my impassioned ranting, I've said all along it wasn't the events that alarmed me so much as the response and this is exactly what I mean.  I never thought I would live in an America where one major party didn't just impugn the other but sought to convict them as traitors.  How this doesn't end in bloodshed and terror is becoming increasingly something I can't see.

Nonsense.  So far a first term Rep from Colorado is actively under investigation for posting the locations of leadership and senior staff in the middle of the assault.  The FBI has her phone records.  She also is one of the ones who refuse to use the screening process to enter the building and she refuses to be searched as well. She ran on the platform of guns ... period, and argues that she has a right to take one on the floor of Congress. If she's actually doing it, that's grounds for expulsion.  As to Mikie Sherril, she merely reported what others reported to her, and security has acknowledged that "tours" were conducted on the 5th -- more to follow.

That's hell-and-gone from slander.  Considering the recent events, it's within the bounds of duty.
Intelligence is not knowledge and knowledge is not wisdom, but they all play well together.
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(01-14-2021, 03:34 PM)David Horn Wrote: Nonsense.  So far a first term Rep from Colorado is actively under investigation for posting the locations of leadership and senior staff in the middle of the assault.  The FBI has her phone records.  She also is one of the ones who refuse to use the screening process to enter the building and she refuses to be searched as well. She ran on the platform of guns ... period, and argues that she has a right to take one on the floor of Congress. If she's actually doing it, that's grounds for expulsion.  As to Mikie Sherril, she merely reported what others reported to her, and security has acknowledged that "tours" were conducted on the 5th -- more to follow.

That's hell-and-gone from slander.  Considering the recent events, it's within the bounds of duty.





I'm going by what the article says here:



"Democratic members of Congress on Wednesday accused unnamed Republicans of giving tours of the Capitol to insurrectionists ahead of last week’s deadly siege of the Capitol"



And  here:



"The tours on the eve of the riot came to light after Representative Mikie Sherrill, Democrat of New Jersey and a former Navy pilot, said Tuesday night on Facebook without offering evidence that she knew of members of Congress who gave “reconnaissance” tours to rioters ahead of the attack."

The combination of an unnamed accusation made on social media (obviously our most rational medium an an act least likely to flame rampant conspiracy theories and partisanship) that does not appear to have any proof beyond 'we know something was suspicious' is what strikes me as either irresponsibly inflammatory or cynically opportunistic.   
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(01-13-2021, 01:03 PM)David Horn Wrote:
(01-12-2021, 04:59 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:
(01-12-2021, 04:11 PM)David Horn Wrote:
(01-11-2021, 11:33 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Is the Democratic population free these days? How much power and authority does the Democratic party have over you and most of its base these days? Let's see, it spent months scaring its base into submission to the point where it was afraid to be vaccinated for Christ's sake. Mrs. Obama looked dumbfounded when she was asked by a reporter about that problem and what they planned to do to fix that problem. Whatever, you made your own choice which was the only choice that someone like you have these days.   

What are you talking about?  The anti-vaxxers are all on your side, along with the anti-maskers and anti-rationalists in general.

The vast majority of the anti-vaccine folks and anti-rationalists are on your side these days. Your side politicized the covid crisis and politicized the situation that occurred with George Floyd and your politicizing what happened at the capitol last week. The anti-maskers are more likely on my side. The Democratic side, you included, spent the last several months participating in a large scale fear/hate campaign that's on the verge of blowing up in the Democrats face. I keep telling you guys that you digging your own graves as you continue to go about your business of scaring/angering your half of  the country into isolation or submission. I keep telling you that there is a limitation on what you guys are doing and able to get away with and once it's reached, the politicians and the people like yourself who are going to find themselves at serious risk and paying a significant price and find out what it's like to be afraid for their lives and living out the rest of their lives in fear. I keep telling you that there's a difference between Democratic voters and Republican voters and keep telling you that you have to change your normal approach with them when your facing/dealing with us directly.

QAnon and the antivaxxer crowd are nearly inseparable, so no.  Typical antivaxxers are not lefties. And the paranoia of the right is truly baffling.  You are the guys with the guns.  The fearmongering is not a leftwing product either. Tell the RW media to stop it, because that's the source.  I'm sorry you're afraid of your own shadows, but that seems to be your problem to fix.
Dude, all the left does is fearmonger and engage in hate speech and race baiting. Trump was portrayed as the boogeyman and everyone who supported him were portrayed as the boogeymen too. The Left Wing media has been doing it none stop for the Last four years. The Left shifted into hype drive and continued doing it none stop for the last year. If it wasn't driving Covid fear, it was driving racial tensions and fears and downplaying the violence or blaming the violence on us while supporting the violence.

We're not afraid of our own shadows which is a major problem that the Left can't fix or change about us. The Democrats can try to change or unravel everything possible within their own means to ensure they keep power with the use of a slim majority but they'll still be dealing with BIG problem with us that they can't fix or control at that point. You have to admit that 76 million hard core Americans could deliver a death blow and mop up whatever shit remains. Lets hope that we don't have to go to that extreme and brighter minds among the Democrats prevail. Why, we can clearly see the boogeyman and we know who the boogeymen are too. That's over half the battle. The 10 GOP's who voted to impeach Trump just lost their jobs for being guilty of flirting with the Devil or making a deal with the Devil or trusting the Devil whichever applies so to speak.
Compassionate Conservatism is dead. Obama/Biden killed it.
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(01-14-2021, 03:14 PM)mamabug Wrote: From my perspective, this is starting to get very scary.  My stance on Jan 6th is the same as it was last week, and the weeks before that - violent groups exist on the fringes of both sides.   Everyone is very good at looking at their side and saying 'well, that group doesn't really represent 95% of my side, they are just a distraction the other team uses.'  I hear that from people justifying rioters burning down billions in property and killing over 30 people and I hear that from people justifying Charlottesville and the Capitol breach alike.  When push comes to shove, they both usually start blaming 'provocateurs' and muttering about false flags.

The similarity of how groups think would be scary if it wasn't utterly predictable form a sociological behavior standpoint.

Anyway, the thing I have a very hard time believing is that elected government officials, especially at the national level, would go beyond the usual excuses and 'what-about-a-lism' to actively assisting and engaging in planning a violent assault *on themselves*.

That this is even part of the national conversation, especially without names or any proof furnished as part of the accusation, is the beginning of a dangerous path.  Despite pretty much every national level Republican or Republican sympathizer in politics, media, and/or alternative media condemning the events of Jan 6th, the narrative being shaped is that not only were the perpetrators on the right, but all Republicans are evil people who either tacitly or actively support this.  

Either the people making the accusation are irresponsible, they are so far into their bubble they legitimately are unable to see their colleagues as human, or they are making a cynical ploy to justify exclusion or outright removal of any Republican who stands in their way.  I've read enough on this board to know some of you would be perfectly happy with that because you are also so far into your in-group and the crisis mindset that you have no problem with stomping all over half the country.  From where I stand, this is what totalitarianism looks like.

There better be either a complete and public exoneration (including a censure of Rep. Sherrill for circulating this rumor in the first place) or a hell of a lot of proof for me to not see this as Democratic politicians acting in bad faith for the purposes of hurting people they disagree with.

Forgive my impassioned ranting, I've said all along it wasn't the events that alarmed me so much as the response and this is exactly what I mean.  I never thought I would live in an America where one major party didn't just impugn the other but sought to convict them as traitors.  How this doesn't end in bloodshed and terror is becoming increasingly something I can't see.
I'm glad to see that there is one brighter mind out there.
Reply
(01-14-2021, 03:34 PM)David Horn Wrote:
(01-14-2021, 03:14 PM)mamabug Wrote: From my perspective, this is starting to get very scary.  My stance on Jan 6th is the same as it was last week, and the weeks before that - violent groups exist on the fringes of both sides.   Everyone is very good at looking at their side and saying 'well, that group doesn't really represent 95% of my side, they are just a distraction the other team uses.'  I hear that from people justifying rioters burning down billions in property and killing over 30 people and I hear that from people justifying Charlottesville and the Capitol breach alike.  When push comes to shove, they both usually start blaming 'provocateurs' and muttering about false flags.

The similarity of how groups think would be scary if it wasn't utterly predictable form a sociological behavior standpoint.

Anyway, the thing I have a very hard time believing is that elected government officials, especially at the national level, would go beyond the usual excuses and 'what-about-a-lism' to actively assisting and engaging in planning a violent assault *on themselves*.

That this is even part of the national conversation, especially without names or any proof furnished as part of the accusation, is the beginning of a dangerous path.  Despite pretty much every national level Republican or Republican sympathizer in politics, media, and/or alternative media condemning the events of Jan 6th, the narrative being shaped is that not only were the perpetrators on the right, but all Republicans are evil people who either tacitly or actively support this.  

Either the people making the accusation are irresponsible, they are so far into their bubble they legitimately are unable to see their colleagues as human, or they are making a cynical ploy to justify exclusion or outright removal of any Republican who stands in their way.  I've read enough on this board to know some of you would be perfectly happy with that because you are also so far into your in-group and the crisis mindset that you have no problem with stomping all over half the country.  From where I stand, this is what totalitarianism looks like.

There better be either a complete and public exoneration (including a censure of Rep. Sherrill for circulating this rumor in the first place) or a hell of a lot of proof for me to not see this as Democratic politicians acting in bad faith for the purposes of hurting people they disagree with.

Forgive my impassioned ranting, I've said all along it wasn't the events that alarmed me so much as the response and this is exactly what I mean.  I never thought I would live in an America where one major party didn't just impugn the other but sought to convict them as traitors.  How this doesn't end in bloodshed and terror is becoming increasingly something I can't see.

Nonsense.  So far a first term Rep from Colorado is actively under investigation for posting the locations of leadership and senior staff in the middle of the assault.  The FBI has her phone records.  She also is one of the ones who refuse to use the screening process to enter the building and she refuses to be searched as well. She ran on the platform of guns ... period, and argues that she has a right to take one on the floor of Congress. If she's actually doing it, that's grounds for expulsion.  As to Mikie Sherril, she merely reported what others reported to her, and security has acknowledged that "tours" were conducted on the 5th -- more to follow.

That's hell-and-gone from slander.  Considering the recent events, it's within the bounds of duty.
Nonsense? You were pretty quick to call it nonsense. So there is an authoritarian/Reactive side to you after all. Do you usually respond to a decent poster with nonsense? You are in charge now. The Democrats are in charge now too. OK, its time to see how good of a manager/moderator you are, and its time to see how good of national leaders that the Democrats are too at the same time. So far, I'd give them an F.
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(01-14-2021, 06:32 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Do you usually respond to a decent poster with nonsense? You are in charge now.

What has this got to do with you?

(01-14-2021, 06:32 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: The Democrats are in charge now too. OK, its time to see how good of a manager/moderator you are, and its time to see how good of national leaders that the Democrats are too at the same time. So far, I'd give them an F.

As a moderator, Dave does not censor ideas and the spam plague is gone.  He lets people freely express their opinion.  It's early yet, and you have to spread the credit among three people, but I'd give high marks so far.  

As for the Democrats, they have yet to reach power and have their policies take effect.  It has been all obstruction and refusal to solve problems.  People dying, businesses failing, racist bad cops running amok, fires, hurricanes, riots in the capitol...  I think that F belongs firmly to Trump and his enablers.
That this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom, and that government of the people, by the people, for the people shall not perish from the earth.
Reply
(01-14-2021, 06:32 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:
(01-14-2021, 03:34 PM)David Horn Wrote:
(01-14-2021, 03:14 PM)mamabug Wrote: From my perspective, this is starting to get very scary.  My stance on Jan 6th is the same as it was last week, and the weeks before that - violent groups exist on the fringes of both sides.   Everyone is very good at looking at their side and saying 'well, that group doesn't really represent 95% of my side, they are just a distraction the other team uses.'  I hear that from people justifying rioters burning down billions in property and killing over 30 people and I hear that from people justifying Charlottesville and the Capitol breach alike.  When push comes to shove, they both usually start blaming 'provocateurs' and muttering about false flags.

The similarity of how groups think would be scary if it wasn't utterly predictable form a sociological behavior standpoint.

Anyway, the thing I have a very hard time believing is that elected government officials, especially at the national level, would go beyond the usual excuses and 'what-about-a-lism' to actively assisting and engaging in planning a violent assault *on themselves*.

That this is even part of the national conversation, especially without names or any proof furnished as part of the accusation, is the beginning of a dangerous path.  Despite pretty much every national level Republican or Republican sympathizer in politics, media, and/or alternative media condemning the events of Jan 6th, the narrative being shaped is that not only were the perpetrators on the right, but all Republicans are evil people who either tacitly or actively support this.  

Either the people making the accusation are irresponsible, they are so far into their bubble they legitimately are unable to see their colleagues as human, or they are making a cynical ploy to justify exclusion or outright removal of any Republican who stands in their way.  I've read enough on this board to know some of you would be perfectly happy with that because you are also so far into your in-group and the crisis mindset that you have no problem with stomping all over half the country.  From where I stand, this is what totalitarianism looks like.

There better be either a complete and public exoneration (including a censure of Rep. Sherrill for circulating this rumor in the first place) or a hell of a lot of proof for me to not see this as Democratic politicians acting in bad faith for the purposes of hurting people they disagree with.

Forgive my impassioned ranting, I've said all along it wasn't the events that alarmed me so much as the response and this is exactly what I mean.  I never thought I would live in an America where one major party didn't just impugn the other but sought to convict them as traitors.  How this doesn't end in bloodshed and terror is becoming increasingly something I can't see.

Nonsense.  So far a first term Rep from Colorado is actively under investigation for posting the locations of leadership and senior staff in the middle of the assault.  The FBI has her phone records.  She also is one of the ones who refuse to use the screening process to enter the building and she refuses to be searched as well. She ran on the platform of guns ... period, and argues that she has a right to take one on the floor of Congress. If she's actually doing it, that's grounds for expulsion.  As to Mikie Sherril, she merely reported what others reported to her, and security has acknowledged that "tours" were conducted on the 5th -- more to follow.

That's hell-and-gone from slander.  Considering the recent events, it's within the bounds of duty.

Nonsense? You were pretty quick to call it nonsense. So there is an authoritarian/Reactive side to you after all. Do you usually respond to a decent poster with nonsense? You are in charge now. The Democrats are in charge now too. OK, its time to see how good of a manager/moderator you are, and its time to see how good of national leaders that the Democrats are too at the same time. So far, I'd give them an F.

We will need to know more about this insurrection. Were insiders in the federal government, including elected officials, complicit or neglectful? We may not know fully until investigations or trials are complete. Anybody who had any role in this insurrection that isn't innocent error must be removed from the responsibility and receive such sanctions as appropriate. For a breach of security not an innocent any Senator or Representative must be expelled; any staffer must be fired and blackballed; any Capitol Police officer or any employee of the House or Senate must be fired. This insurrection is pure disgrace. I have yet to be satisfied that insiders were involved. Lives of fellow Senators and Representatives as well as the dignity of Congress were put at risk.    

Tours of the capital have been done, and I was in one while on a trip to a band contest. "My" Representative gave us a tour that even included a trip to the Congressional lunchroom. It was non-partisan. But I was a high-schooler between the freshman and sophomore year, and none of us were looking for any vulnerabilities of the Capitol.  

Before the start of this year, any fictional story involving an attempt at a mass takeover of the Capitol would be cause for quick rejection by a literary agent. As the late author Leo Rosten put it, fiction must make sense and historical fact has no such obligation. 

Just a reminder to everyone: the FBI may not have the prerogative to beat confessions out of people or get confessions by threatening family members, but it is very good at following money trails, phone logs, and travel itineraries -- and of course examining physical evidence. It is thus as effective as Nazi or Soviet secret police without the brutality.
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated Communist  but instead the people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists -- Hannah Arendt.


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Capitol rioters included highly trained ex-military and cops

By MICHAEL BIESECKER, JAKE BLEIBERG and JAMES LAPORTA
24 minutes ago



WASHINGTON (AP) — As President Donald Trump’s supporters massed outside the Capitol last week and sang the national anthem, a line of men wearing olive-drab helmets and body armor trudged purposefully up the marble stairs in a single-file line, each man holding the jacket collar of the one ahead.

The formation, known as “Ranger File,” is standard operating procedure for a combat team that is “stacking up” to breach a building — instantly recognizable to any U.S. soldier or Marine who served in Iraq and Afghanistan. It was a chilling sign that many at the vanguard of the mob that stormed the seat of American democracy either had military training or were trained by those who did.

An Associated Press review of public records, social media posts and videos shows at least 21 current or former members of the U.S. military or law enforcement have been identified as being at or near the Capitol riot, with more than a dozen others under investigation but not yet named. In many cases, those who stormed the Capitol appeared to employ tactics, body armor and technology such as two-way radio headsets that were similar to those of the very police they were confronting.

Experts in homegrown extremism have warned for years about efforts by far-right militants and white-supremacist groups to radicalize and recruit people with military and law enforcement training, and they say the Jan. 6 insurrection that left five people dead saw some of their worst fears realized.

“ISIS and al-Qaida would drool over having someone with the training and experience of a U.S. military officer,” said Michael German, a former FBI agent and fellow with the Brennan Center for Justice at New York University. “These people have training and capabilities that far exceed what any foreign terrorist group can do. Foreign terrorist groups don’t have any members who have badges.”

Among the most prominent to emerge is a retired Air Force lieutenant colonel and decorated combat veteran from Texas who was arrested after he was photographed wearing a helmet and body armor on the floor of the Senate, holding a pair of zip-tie handcuffs.


MORE ON THE CAPITOL SIEGE:

Another Air Force veteran from San Diego was shot and killed by a Capitol Police officer as she tried to leap through a barricade near the House chamber. A retired Navy SEAL, among the most elite special warfare operators in the military, posted a Facebook video about traveling from his Ohio home to the rally and seemingly approving of the invasion of “our building, our house.”

Two police officers from a small Virginia town, both of them former infantrymen, were arrested by the FBI after posting a selfie of themselves inside the Capitol, one flashing his middle finger at the camera.

Also under scrutiny is an active-duty psychological warfare captain from North Carolina who organized three busloads of people who headed to Washington for the “Save America” rally in support the president’s false claim that the November election was stolen from him.


While the Pentagon declined to provide an estimate for how many other active-duty military personnel are under investigation, the military’s top leaders were concerned enough ahead of President-elect Joe Biden’s inauguration that they issued a highly unusual warning to all service members this week that the right to free speech gives no one the right to commit violence.

The chief of the U.S. Capitol Police was forced to resign following the breach and several officers have been suspended pending the outcome of investigations into their conduct, including one who posed for a selfie with a rioter and another who was seen wearing one of Trump’s red “Make America Great Again” caps.

The Oath Keepers, which claims to count thousands of current and former law enforcement officials and military veterans as members, have become fixtures at protests and counter-protests across the country, often heavily armed with semi-automatic carbines and tactical shotguns.


Stewart Rhodes, an Army veteran who founded the Oath Keepers in 2009 as a reaction to the presidency of Barack Obama, had been saying for weeks before the Capitol riot that his group was preparing for a civil war and was “armed, prepared to go in if the president calls us up.”



Full Coverage: Capitol siege

Adam Newbold, the retired Navy SEAL from Lisbon, Ohio, whose more than two-decade military career includes multiple combat awards for valor, said in a Jan. 5 Facebook video, “We are just very prepared, very capable and very skilled patriots ready for a fight.”

He later posted a since-deleted follow-up video after the riot saying he was “proud” of the assault.
Newbold, 45, did not respond to multiple messages from the AP but in an interview with the Task & Purpose website he denied ever going inside the Capitol. He added that because of the fallout from the videos he has resigned from a program that helps prepare potential SEAL applicants.




The AP’s review of hundreds of videos and photos from the insurrectionist riot shows scores of people mixed in the crowd who were wearing military-style gear, including helmets, body armor, rucksacks and two-way radios. Dozens carried canisters of bear spray, baseball bats, hockey sticks and pro-Trump flags attached to stout poles later used to bash police officers.



A close examination of the group marching up the steps to help breach the Capitol shows they wore military-style patches that read “MILITIA” and “OATHKEEPER.” Others were wearing patches and insignias representing far-right militant groups, including the Proud Boys, the Three Percenters and various self-styled state militias.
[url=https://apnews.com/article/ex-military-cops-us-capitol-riot-a1cb17201dfddc98291edead5badc257/gallery/0302a7ca5d63496ca6b0da9d8096a383][/url]
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated Communist  but instead the people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists -- Hannah Arendt.


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This was no spontaneous rebellion. People knew what they were doing. They had body armor and zip-cuffs. They did formations.

... I would suggest that retiring military personnel who get special training for extreme operations get as part of their training the warning to never use such training against lawful federal, state, or municipal governments.
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated Communist  but instead the people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists -- Hannah Arendt.


Reply
CNN has an article up about various police and guard forces preparing for a repeat of the capitol violence.  They seem to think that once they recognize that red violence is a real threat, there are enough forces around to quell that threat.

I think attacking Trump's big lie that the election was stolen is required to actually end the threat, but putting overkill security forces in place could be a start.
That this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom, and that government of the people, by the people, for the people shall not perish from the earth.
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(01-14-2021, 08:07 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: We will need to know more about this insurrection. Were insiders in the federal government, including elected officials, complicit or neglectful? We may not know fully until investigations or trials are complete. Anybody who had any role in this insurrection that isn't innocent error must be removed from the responsibility and receive such sanctions as appropriate. For a breach of security not an innocent any Senator or Representative must be expelled; any staffer must be fired and blackballed; any Capitol Police officer or any employee of the House or Senate must be fired. This insurrection is pure disgrace. I have yet to be satisfied that insiders were involved. Lives of fellow Senators and Representatives as well as the dignity of Congress were put at risk.    

I agree here, as I think would many on the center-right.  My issue is with throwing unsupported claims against a 'them' like chum into the fetid cesspit that is social media.  If a congresscritter has a specific concern, they should raise it to the FBI and not post it on Facebook.  That even as friendly a publication as the NY Times pointed out (weakly) that the claim had zero proof behind it should be a red flag as to just how irresponsible it is in the current state of tensions and distrust.

My skepticism over the assertion it was an inside job is still pretty high and it would take a lot of actual facts to clear it.  Occam's razor, at this point, suggests it was a planned attempt by a hard-core group of Trump supporters who used the madness of crowds and lack of proper preparedness by the DC Mayor as cover WITHOUT active collusion and facilitation of elected officials and/or staffers.  It's basically the Seattle CHAZ fiasco in a much more serious context.

But, I could be wrong, and I'm sure the lovey surveillance state we live in will soon reveal the truth.
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(01-15-2021, 03:55 PM)mamabug Wrote: If a congresscritter has a specific concern, they should raise it to the FBI and not post it on Facebook. 

Nitpick. To the House or Senate sergeant at arms, and let him take it from there. But if the concern has real bite, perhaps to the press as well. Much has yet to be learned about the insurrection, and the people ought to know. Trump should not be the only one using social media to shape public opinion.
That this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom, and that government of the people, by the people, for the people shall not perish from the earth.
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(01-15-2021, 03:55 PM)mamabug Wrote:
(01-14-2021, 08:07 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: We will need to know more about this insurrection. Were insiders in the federal government, including elected officials, complicit or neglectful? We may not know fully until investigations or trials are complete. Anybody who had any role in this insurrection that isn't innocent error must be removed from the responsibility and receive such sanctions as appropriate. For a breach of security not an innocent error any Senator or Representative must be expelled; any staffer must be fired and blackballed; any Capitol Police officer or any employee of the House or Senate must be fired. This insurrection is pure disgrace. I have yet to be satisfied that insiders were involved. Lives of fellow Senators and Representatives as well as the dignity of Congress were put at risk.    

I agree here, as I think would many on the center-right.  My issue is with throwing unsupported claims against a 'them' like chum into the fetid cesspit that is social media.  If a congresscritter has a specific concern, they should raise it to the FBI and not post it on Facebook.  That even as friendly a publication as the NY Times pointed out (weakly) that the claim had zero proof behind it should be a red flag as to just how irresponsible it is in the current state of tensions and distrust.

It is best that we discuss this from a center-right angle. I do use Facebook, but I am not making any speculations that have not been released into general knowledge (such as the AP wires). I have no desire to tip anyone off, and if I did as the result of knowledge of criminal acts it would be to the appropriate agency of law enforcement.  

Quote:My skepticism over the assertion it was an inside job is still pretty high and it would take a lot of actual facts to clear it.  Occam's razor, at this point, suggests it was a planned attempt by a hard-core group of Trump supporters who used the madness of crowds and lack of proper preparedness by the DC Mayor as cover WITHOUT active collusion and facilitation of elected officials and/or staffers.  It's basically the Seattle CHAZ fiasco in a much more serious context.

I'm making no specific allegations. It is hard to imagine any member of Congress risking a trip from renown to the infamy of prison. People did have armor, and people literally burglarized the Capitol. 

The best security isn't an armed camp; it is instead that nobody would even imagine doing anything of the sort. I figure that Capitol police were not prepared for armed people and paramilitary tactics. One crazy person? Sure.  

Quote:But, I could be wrong, and I'm sure the lovey surveillance state we live in will soon reveal the truth.

America has trended toward a police state since at least September 11, 2001.
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated Communist  but instead the people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists -- Hannah Arendt.


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(01-14-2021, 06:32 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:
(01-14-2021, 03:34 PM)David Horn Wrote:
(01-14-2021, 03:14 PM)mamabug Wrote: From my perspective, this is starting to get very scary.  My stance on Jan 6th is the same as it was last week, and the weeks before that - violent groups exist on the fringes of both sides.   Everyone is very good at looking at their side and saying 'well, that group doesn't really represent 95% of my side, they are just a distraction the other team uses.'  I hear that from people justifying rioters burning down billions in property and killing over 30 people and I hear that from people justifying Charlottesville and the Capitol breach alike.  When push comes to shove, they both usually start blaming 'provocateurs' and muttering about false flags.

The similarity of how groups think would be scary if it wasn't utterly predictable form a sociological behavior standpoint.

Anyway, the thing I have a very hard time believing is that elected government officials, especially at the national level, would go beyond the usual excuses and 'what-about-a-lism' to actively assisting and engaging in planning a violent assault *on themselves*.

That this is even part of the national conversation, especially without names or any proof furnished as part of the accusation, is the beginning of a dangerous path.  Despite pretty much every national level Republican or Republican sympathizer in politics, media, and/or alternative media condemning the events of Jan 6th, the narrative being shaped is that not only were the perpetrators on the right, but all Republicans are evil people who either tacitly or actively support this.  

Either the people making the accusation are irresponsible, they are so far into their bubble they legitimately are unable to see their colleagues as human, or they are making a cynical ploy to justify exclusion or outright removal of any Republican who stands in their way.  I've read enough on this board to know some of you would be perfectly happy with that because you are also so far into your in-group and the crisis mindset that you have no problem with stomping all over half the country.  From where I stand, this is what totalitarianism looks like.

There better be either a complete and public exoneration (including a censure of Rep. Sherrill for circulating this rumor in the first place) or a hell of a lot of proof for me to not see this as Democratic politicians acting in bad faith for the purposes of hurting people they disagree with.

Forgive my impassioned ranting, I've said all along it wasn't the events that alarmed me so much as the response and this is exactly what I mean.  I never thought I would live in an America where one major party didn't just impugn the other but sought to convict them as traitors.  How this doesn't end in bloodshed and terror is becoming increasingly something I can't see.

Nonsense.  So far a first term Rep from Colorado is actively under investigation for posting the locations of leadership and senior staff in the middle of the assault.  The FBI has her phone records.  She also is one of the ones who refuse to use the screening process to enter the building and she refuses to be searched as well. She ran on the platform of guns ... period, and argues that she has a right to take one on the floor of Congress. If she's actually doing it, that's grounds for expulsion.  As to Mikie Sherril, she merely reported what others reported to her, and security has acknowledged that "tours" were conducted on the 5th -- more to follow.

That's hell-and-gone from slander.  Considering the recent events, it's within the bounds of duty.

Nonsense? You were pretty quick to call it nonsense. So there is an authoritarian/Reactive side to you after all. Do you usually respond to a decent poster with nonsense? You are in charge now. The Democrats are in charge now too. OK, its time to see how good of a manager/moderator you are, and its time to see how good of national leaders that the Democrats are too at the same time. So far, I'd give them an F.

Disinformation is nonsense, regardless of the source.  mamabug was parroting "information" that was already validated as false by many sources.  More to the point, there are several issues that are remaining classified for reasons not disclosed.  At least some of that is safety related.

I'm betting on a lot worse rather than the opposite.  So far, that's only my opinion.
Intelligence is not knowledge and knowledge is not wisdom, but they all play well together.
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(01-15-2021, 03:55 PM)mamabug Wrote:
(01-14-2021, 08:07 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: We will need to know more about this insurrection. Were insiders in the federal government, including elected officials, complicit or neglectful? We may not know fully until investigations or trials are complete. Anybody who had any role in this insurrection that isn't innocent error must be removed from the responsibility and receive such sanctions as appropriate. For a breach of security not an innocent any Senator or Representative must be expelled; any staffer must be fired and blackballed; any Capitol Police officer or any employee of the House or Senate must be fired. This insurrection is pure disgrace. I have yet to be satisfied that insiders were involved. Lives of fellow Senators and Representatives as well as the dignity of Congress were put at risk.    

I agree here, as I think would many on the center-right.  My issue is with throwing unsupported claims against a 'them' like chum into the fetid cesspit that is social media.  If a congresscritter has a specific concern, they should raise it to the FBI and not post it on Facebook.  That even as friendly a publication as the NY Times pointed out (weakly) that the claim had zero proof behind it should be a red flag as to just how irresponsible it is in the current state of tensions and distrust.

This is a bit rich considering the source of 99% of the disinformation out there.  FB was a RW cesspool, far more than one used by the left, and it still continues to a great extent.  It's been well documented that FB algorithms reward extremism, and the "influencers" on the right were often driven to the extremes just to get Likes and Reposts.

mamabug Wrote:My skepticism over the assertion it was an inside job is still pretty high and it would take a lot of actual facts to clear it.  Occam's razor, at this point, suggests it was a planned attempt by a hard-core group of Trump supporters who used the madness of crowds and lack of proper preparedness by the DC Mayor as cover WITHOUT active collusion and facilitation of elected officials and/or staffers.  It's basically the Seattle CHAZ fiasco in a much more serious context.

But, I could be wrong, and I'm sure the lovey surveillance state we live in will soon reveal the truth.

I agree that this was planned and executed by professionals of one sort, or perhaps, many.  Transparency, on the other hand, is not all that great.  Actually, if this was the UK,, I would agree, but it's not.  We aren't bathed in video cameras like London (~25,000 the last time I was there).  For al;l the whining about loss of freedom, we maintain a lot of privacy here -- possibly to our detriment in this case.  Still, privacy is extremely important, and should be violated only under extreme circumstances.
Intelligence is not knowledge and knowledge is not wisdom, but they all play well together.
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A view from afar:

[Image: 138063829_10103488131538749_765515383368...e=6026C751]
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated Communist  but instead the people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists -- Hannah Arendt.


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(01-15-2021, 06:46 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: It is best that we discuss this from a center-right angle. I do use Facebook, but I am not making any speculations that have not been released into general knowledge (such as the AP wires). I have no desire to tip anyone off, and if I did as the result of knowledge of criminal acts it would be to the appropriate agency of law enforcement.  

I'm making no specific allegations. It is hard to imagine any member of Congress risking a trip from renown to the infamy of prison. People did have armor, and people literally burglarized the Capitol. 

The best security isn't an armed camp; it is instead that nobody would even imagine doing anything of the sort. I figure that Capitol police were not prepared for armed people and paramilitary tactics. One crazy person? Sure.  

I apologize if you thought I was making an accusation towards you.  My comments were strictly aimed at the congresswoman who posted on FB implying unnamed Republican colleagues helped facilitate the attack without providing proof.  I can't see a reason for doing something like that where the answer isn't 'she's stupid AF and irresponsible' or 'she's cynically trying to foment distrust to further political advantage.'  The story itself does not seem to be making the rounds to the point where people on the right are screaming about it, so I think some wiser heads have prevailed and are burying it.

But, rest assured, I am not accusing you of anything.  I was responding to the events you posted about, not to anything you've done or said.


Quote:America has trended toward a police state since at least September 11, 2001.

Yep, yep, and yep.
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(01-16-2021, 10:09 AM)David Horn Wrote: Disinformation is nonsense, regardless of the source.  mamabug was parroting "information" that was already validated as false by many sources.  More to the point, there are several issues that are remaining classified for reasons not disclosed.  At least some of that is safety related.

I'm betting on a lot worse rather than the opposite.  So far, that's only my opinion.

Can you please let me know what information I was "parroting" that had been disproven.  My comment was aimed purely at the article posted right before mine that I felt contained a number of alarming elements in the context of whether we are moving further into or away from a 'crisis mindset.  Unnamed rumors without proof thrown out at the public seem, in my opinion, to be something heading even further into an 'us vs. them' mentality.

If the article has since been retracted or clarified, I'd appreciate a link.
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(01-16-2021, 10:28 AM)David Horn Wrote: This is a bit rich considering the source of 99% of the disinformation out there.  FB was a RW cesspool, far more than one used by the left, and it still continues to a great extent.  It's been well documented that FB algorithms reward extremism, and the "influencers" on the right were often driven to the extremes just to get Likes and Reposts.

I thought two wrongs didn't make a right?  All social media touching on politics is a cesspool.  It also gives a distorted view of reality given that less than 2% of people are active in anything beyond posting pics of their kids, pets, and vacations.  I also hold it responsible for the devolution of journalism as it promotes a 'click bait' approach to headlines and ratings as well as increases the feeling of urgency to get something out without vetting.  It's been a long time since serious, reflective, investigative journalism was really rewarded.  



Quote:
mamabug Wrote:But, I could be wrong, and I'm sure the lovey surveillance state we live in will soon reveal the truth.

I agree that this was planned and executed by professionals of one sort, or perhaps, many.  Transparency, on the other hand, is not all that great.  Actually, if this was the UK,, I would agree, but it's not.  We aren't bathed in video cameras like London (~25,000 the last time I was there).  For al;l the whining about loss of freedom, we maintain a lot of privacy here -- possibly to our detriment in this case.  Still, privacy is extremely important, and should be violated only under extreme circumstances.

Technologically, they have the ability to grab info about every cell phone that may have hit the congressional wi-fi or pinged off nearby towers.  4th amendment rights are the only thing preventing them from doing a pull of the data and tracking people down that way - but I wouldn't place any bets on that.  Libertarians have known since Snowden that law enforcement pulls the data first to build their suspect pool then finds ways to circumvent 'fruit of the poisonous tree' by building a case around them as if it came from other sources.   I'd be very surprised if the FBI didn't already have a list in their hands that, legally, they are not allowed to have but which we will never know about.
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