Donald Trump: polls of approval and favorability

[pbrower2a]

(02-01-2021, 05:31 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(02-01-2021, 03:56 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Bob Butler 54

(01-31-2021, 08:12 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: As a matter of fact, its more likely the Democratic party fractures and implodes before the American right disappears these days.

Well, not if you look at history.  The old values generally collapse in a crisis.

If you look at American history, you'll see that America has always prevailed. You're tied to the DNC. We're not tied to the GOP or the DNC. We are free to break with tradition, cut ties with the Democratic party and reestablish an American based nation.

Not really.  In every crisis, the largest problems with the culture are addressed.  This is the second time, with the US Civil War being the first, that race has played a large role in a crisis.  That is when the two cultures primarily go head to head.  In such cases, as in most cases, America has stepped further away from the Agricultural Age patterns.  It has been the rural, conservative, cavalier faction that ends up adjusting its values.

But you wind up scrambling facts and history to support your mindset.  People do not alter their mindsets without a traumatic trauma, and it seems that you do not value lives enough to be traumatized.  Thus, you are stuck with your existing values.

As usual, Classic X'er fails to recognize that what "America" means changes as the population changes. As the population changes  even what constitutes tradition changes. We need remember that we all face the same economic and existential questions of the time.  

We are going to see certain ways of life more vulnerable to the Big Kill of this Crisis. The poor are obvious enough. I can also see certain patterns of life more likely to kill... People make their adjustments or risk dying.

[mamabug]

(02-01-2021, 01:34 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: Donald Trump left plenty of warning signs. He has huge funds and he gets attached to a porn star. He is taped talking about grabbing women by their "kitty cats". He mocks  the handicapped. He denounces people for their religion and ethnicity.  A bit fewer than 46% or the American electorate vote for him in 2016, and an even larger share vote for him in 2020. Character is destiny, and people of bad character eventually get bad results even if they have competence and talent. Just look at Bill Cosby, Harvey Weinstein, and Phil Spector. 

Again, nothing you say about him changes the fact that there were a number of people who voted for him despite all of that simply because, in a binary system, the things his administration might or might not accomplish was preferable than the policy agenda of his opponent.

The moral objectionability of Trump allowed the left to spend four years pretending that vote didn't happen and try to figure out how to jury rig the system so that it would never happen again instead of regrouping and determining why the loss actually happened and coming back with a stronger, better party that appealed to more than a bare majority of America.   Continuing to act as if nobody except a racist would have voted for him is furthering this ostrich-like mindset and is only going to further the partisan divide.

But, I'm getting tired of being Cassandra so I may just have to stop engaging in discussions on this topic.  I've made my points, consider them or not.

[David Horn]

(02-01-2021, 11:48 AM)mamabug Wrote:

(02-01-2021, 01:34 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: Donald Trump left plenty of warning signs. He has huge funds and he gets attached to a porn star. He is taped talking about grabbing women by their "kitty cats". He mocks  the handicapped. He denounces people for their religion and ethnicity.  A bit fewer than 46% or the American electorate vote for him in 2016, and an even larger share vote for him in 2020. Character is destiny, and people of bad character eventually get bad results even if they have competence and talent. Just look at Bill Cosby, Harvey Weinstein, and Phil Spector. 

Again, nothing you say about him changes the fact that there were a number of people who voted for him despite all of that simply because, in a binary system, the things his administration might or might not accomplish was preferable than the policy agenda of his opponent.

The moral objectionability of Trump allowed the left to spend four years pretending that vote didn't happen and try to figure out how to jury rig the system so that it would never happen again instead of regrouping and determining why the loss actually happened and coming back with a stronger, better party that appealed to more than a bare majority of America.   Continuing to act as if nobody except a racist would have voted for him is furthering this ostrich-like mindset and is only going to further the partisan divide.

But, I'm getting tired of being Cassandra so I may just have to stop engaging in discussions on this topic.  I've made my points, consider them or not.

In all honesty, he lost both times (though Hillary is far from my idea of a preferable candidate).  Being in the minority and still getting to run the show is an aphrodisiac, and it wont last beyond Texas or Florida going Blue (whenever that happens).  All of a sudden, GOP concerns will change -- just like GOP policy positions changed when Trump took the stage.  I may live to see it; I may not.

[Einzige]

Can any of you describe the political economy of Team Fed or Team Blue in any systemic way?

[David Horn]

(02-01-2021, 12:58 PM)Einzige Wrote: Can any of you describe the political economy of Team Fed or Team Blue in any systemic way?

For this, you must paint with a sprayer, because it's all over the map.

[Einzige]

(02-01-2021, 02:06 PM)David Horn Wrote:

(02-01-2021, 12:58 PM)Einzige Wrote: Can any of you describe the political economy of Team Fed or Team Blue in any systemic way?

For this, you must paint with a sprayer, because it's all over the map.

I can pretty well do so.

Team Red theoretically supports free markets and low taxes. In actuality it subsidizes domestic manufacturers and extractive industries, with roots in the Army and Marines (of course the militry skews conservative in general, but these are the political mainstays of the GOP there), as well as agriculture. This creates contradictions between its social base and theoretical superstructure.

Team Blue ostensibly supports leveling social programs and unions. In actuality it subsidizes foreign trade oriented industries and the emerging green and IT sectors; in the military its strength mostly lies in the Navy and Air Force. This produces contradictions between its social base and theoretical superstructure.

The interplay of these contradictions drives the dialectic of American politics.

Marxism works.

[Classic-Xer]

(02-01-2021, 05:31 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(02-01-2021, 03:56 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Bob Butler 54

(01-31-2021, 08:12 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: As a matter of fact, its more likely the Democratic party fractures and implodes before the American right disappears these days.

Well, not if you look at history.  The old values generally collapse in a crisis.

If you look at American history, you'll see that America has always prevailed. You're tied to the DNC. We're not tied to the GOP or the DNC. We are free to break with tradition, cut ties with the Democratic party and reestablish an American based nation.

Not really.  In every crisis, the largest problems with the culture are addressed.  This is the second time, with the US Civil War being the first, that race has played a large role in a crisis.  That is when the two cultures primarily go head to head.  In such cases, as in most cases, America has stepped further away from the Agricultural Age patterns.  It has been the rural, conservative, cavalier faction that ends up adjusting its values.

But you wind up scrambling facts and history to support your mindset.  People do not alter their mindsets without a traumatic trauma, and it seems that you do not value lives enough to be traumatized.  Thus, you are stuck with your existing values.

I'm not tied to a particular view/belief of a theory nor do I have an emotional attachment to particular outcome like you either. Unlike you, I'm opened minded and using common sense.  Dude, the Democratic side supports the murder of millions of humans each year. You are on the side that values unfettered abortion right. You'd be wise to consider that the next time you open your mouth about others unwillingness to do/sacrifice anything to save your lives. We are stepping away from industrial age pattern this time. You represent the old industrial age values like big government, centralized power, quasi socialism, unionization and so forth. In short, the reality is that the old Left has gone full circle and has pretty sold out. The new Left is back to wear the old Left started during the turn of the last century with a lot more people, a lot more problems of all kinds and a much higher hurdle/larger gap than there was back then. We're talking about millions of third world level people Bob. Whose problem is it, it's not America's problem, it's a Democratic/round head problem that the Democratic party has been ignoring, acting as if it's not a problem and not dealing with or properly addressing and doing little to nothing to stop and politically accommodating/protecting for years. Who the hell do you think we are dude, a bunch of pandering/blathering idiots/ partisan hacks like you guys.

[Classic-Xer]

(02-01-2021, 12:43 PM)David Horn Wrote:

(02-01-2021, 11:48 AM)mamabug Wrote:

(02-01-2021, 01:34 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: Donald Trump left plenty of warning signs. He has huge funds and he gets attached to a porn star. He is taped talking about grabbing women by their "kitty cats". He mocks  the handicapped. He denounces people for their religion and ethnicity.  A bit fewer than 46% or the American electorate vote for him in 2016, and an even larger share vote for him in 2020. Character is destiny, and people of bad character eventually get bad results even if they have competence and talent. Just look at Bill Cosby, Harvey Weinstein, and Phil Spector. 

Again, nothing you say about him changes the fact that there were a number of people who voted for him despite all of that simply because, in a binary system, the things his administration might or might not accomplish was preferable than the policy agenda of his opponent.

The moral objectionability of Trump allowed the left to spend four years pretending that vote didn't happen and try to figure out how to jury rig the system so that it would never happen again instead of regrouping and determining why the loss actually happened and coming back with a stronger, better party that appealed to more than a bare majority of America.   Continuing to act as if nobody except a racist would have voted for him is furthering this ostrich-like mindset and is only going to further the partisan divide.

But, I'm getting tired of being Cassandra so I may just have to stop engaging in discussions on this topic.  I've made my points, consider them or not.

In all honesty, he lost both times (though Hillary is far from my idea of a preferable candidate).  Being in the minority and still getting to run the show is an aphrodisiac, and it wont last beyond Texas or Florida going Blue (whenever that happens).  All of a sudden, GOP concerns will change -- just like GOP policy positions changed when Trump took the stage.  I may live to see it; I may not.

No he didn't, he beat Hilary fair and square. If you have some silly notion in your head that your going change this country from a republic to a full fledged democracy and place America under your thumb by changing the rules after winning an illegal election, you've got another thing coming dude. The chances are more likely that you will live to see another American Revolution and the most violent period that you and the world has ever seen dude. All I have to say, you better figure out a way to find Jesus/God or listen to the angel on your shoulder if your lucky have one because they;re your only savior dude. I heard the event at the Capitol had an impact on AOC's psyche and it seems to have caused some paranoia. All she's been doing is spouting off and associating Tea Party Republicans with White Supremacy and fascism. You'd think she lived in a bubble and never met a real life American who could give to shits about her, her insecurities, her problems or the urban district that she represents or the party that she hopes will make her richer and more powerful.

[Classic-Xer]

(02-01-2021, 11:48 AM)mamabug Wrote:

(02-01-2021, 01:34 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: Donald Trump left plenty of warning signs. He has huge funds and he gets attached to a porn star. He is taped talking about grabbing women by their "kitty cats". He mocks  the handicapped. He denounces people for their religion and ethnicity.  A bit fewer than 46% or the American electorate vote for him in 2016, and an even larger share vote for him in 2020. Character is destiny, and people of bad character eventually get bad results even if they have competence and talent. Just look at Bill Cosby, Harvey Weinstein, and Phil Spector. 

Again, nothing you say about him changes the fact that there were a number of people who voted for him despite all of that simply because, in a binary system, the things his administration might or might not accomplish was preferable than the policy agenda of his opponent.

The moral objectionability of Trump allowed the left to spend four years pretending that vote didn't happen and try to figure out how to jury rig the system so that it would never happen again instead of regrouping and determining why the loss actually happened and coming back with a stronger, better party that appealed to more than a bare majority of America.   Continuing to act as if nobody except a racist would have voted for him is furthering this ostrich-like mindset and is only going to further the partisan divide.

But, I'm getting tired of being Cassandra so I may just have to stop engaging in discussions on this topic.  I've made my points, consider them or not.

Don't do that, they have to hear it from someone other than us.

[Eric the Green]

(02-01-2021, 11:48 AM)mamabug Wrote:

(02-01-2021, 01:34 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: Donald Trump left plenty of warning signs. He has huge funds and he gets attached to a porn star. He is taped talking about grabbing women by their "kitty cats". He mocks  the handicapped. He denounces people for their religion and ethnicity.  A bit fewer than 46% or the American electorate vote for him in 2016, and an even larger share vote for him in 2020. Character is destiny, and people of bad character eventually get bad results even if they have competence and talent. Just look at Bill Cosby, Harvey Weinstein, and Phil Spector. 

Again, nothing you say about him changes the fact that there were a number of people who voted for him despite all of that simply because, in a binary system, the things his administration might or might not accomplish was preferable than the policy agenda of his opponent.

The moral objectionability of Trump allowed the left to spend four years pretending that vote didn't happen and try to figure out how to jury rig the system so that it would never happen again instead of regrouping and determining why the loss actually happened and coming back with a stronger, better party that appealed to more than a bare majority of America.   Continuing to act as if nobody except a racist would have voted for him is furthering this ostrich-like mindset and is only going to further the partisan divide.

But, I'm getting tired of being Cassandra so I may just have to stop engaging in discussions on this topic.  I've made my points, consider them or not.

"a person whose valid warnings or concerns are disbelieved by others." Who is Cassandra depends on your views. People like me have been warning against free-market economics and the moral minority for well over 40 years.

To people like me, warning of further partisan division now is like warning about a storm that has already come and flooded the city. Why should I care? The only point is who is going to win.

I agree, lots of Republican and Republican-leaning voters supported Trump as a matter of course because he pledged to support their favorite policies, like pro-gun, anti-abortion, anti-tax, anti-immigrant, pro-business etc. Racism is a hidden factor in much of this, as well as religious conservatism, but it's not the only reason people voted for Trump. It just stirred up a lot of hate that was hidden before. People like me on the Left called him a fake president, because he was unqualified for the job, and we wondered why that was not a factor in peoples' votes. "Jury-rigging the system" on the Democrats' part consisted of efforts, only somewhat successful, to end the jury-rigging the Republicans and our founding fathers had done, especially voter suppression laws, voter-roll purges, poll closings in Democratic-voting areas and so on.

The Democrats did come back with a stronger party and a better candidate in 2020. Biden won over 7 million more votes than Trump, and still barely won the White House because of the outdated electoral college that favors small and former slave states. If the Democrats don't choose Harris to run in 2024, they should continue to get stronger, since they are interested in real problems, and since the country is becoming more diverse and less wedded to ancient ideologies. If Republicans cling to Trump they will lose ground and perhaps disappear. If the Democrats continue to give-in to or adopt Republican policies, they will continue to appear weak and ineffective and will also lose ground, and so will the nation. What needs to happen is that more people need to learn that Democratic Party policies work and are better than the Republican Party policies.

Trump blatantly appealed to racism throughout his 5-year political career, and did not care about police shootings more than he did about using supposed riots to stoke his vote. That helped his chances to win, and it also further divided the nation much more than correctly attributing his support in part to racism would.

[pbrower2a]

(02-01-2021, 11:59 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(02-01-2021, 05:31 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(02-01-2021, 03:56 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Bob Butler 54

(01-31-2021, 08:12 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: As a matter of fact, its more likely the Democratic party fractures and implodes before the American right disappears these days.

Well, not if you look at history.  The old values generally collapse in a crisis.

If you look at American history, you'll see that America has always prevailed. You're tied to the DNC. We're not tied to the GOP or the DNC. We are free to break with tradition, cut ties with the Democratic party and reestablish an American based nation.

Not really.  In every crisis, the largest problems with the culture are addressed.  This is the second time, with the US Civil War being the first, that race has played a large role in a crisis.  That is when the two cultures primarily go head to head.  In such cases, as in most cases, America has stepped further away from the Agricultural Age patterns.  It has been the rural, conservative, cavalier faction that ends up adjusting its values.

But you wind up scrambling facts and history to support your mindset.  People do not alter their mindsets without a traumatic trauma, and it seems that you do not value lives enough to be traumatized.  Thus, you are stuck with your existing values.

I'm not tied to a particular view/belief of a theory nor do I have an emotional  attachment to particular   outcome like you  either. Unlike you, I'm opened minded   and using common sense.  Dude, the Democratic side supports the murder of millions of humans each year. You are on the side that values unfettered abortion right.

In 2018, 619,591 legal induced abortions were reported to CDC from 49 reporting areas. Among 48 reporting areas with data each year during 2009–2018, in 2018, a total of 614,820 abortions were reported, the abortion rate was 11.3 abortions per 1,000 women aged 15–44 years, and the abortion ratio was 189 abortions per 1,000 live births.


https://www.cdc.gov/reproductivehealth/d.../index.htm

Don't exaggerate.

Quote:You'd be wise to consider that the next time you open your mouth about others unwillingness to do/sacrifice anything to save your lives. We are stepping away from industrial age pattern this time. You represent the old industrial age values like big government, centralized power, quasi socialism, unionization and so forth. In short, the reality is that the old Left has gone full circle and has pretty sold out.

That's odd! The Right has found itself increasingly amenable to Big Government which can provide lucrative contracts, enforce anti-competitive tendencies in business, promote wars for profit, and make money off welfare. Big Business has no problem with SNAP because it turns potential shoplifters into customers. (that's fine for me, too, because food security is a legitimate issue). Big Government means big roads, big hydroelectric projects, and military bases. 

The big change is that manufacturing has become a smaller share of economic activity over time. We really aren't buying more stuff. Economic reality has become more precarious. Unions are the only reliable friends of the working person, and the weakening of unions corresponds closely to the decline of real wages.  

Quote: The new Left   is back to (where) the old Left started during the turn of the last century with a lot more people,  a lot  more problems of all kinds and a much higher hurdle/larger gap than there was  back then. We're talking about millions of  third world level people Bob. Whose problem is it, it's not America's problem, it's a Democratic/round head problem that the Democratic party has been ignoring, acting as if  it's not a problem and not dealing with or properly addressing  and doing little to nothing to stop and politically accommodating/protecting for years. Who the hell do you think we are dude, a bunch of pandering/blathering idiots/ partisan hacks like you guys.

Far more problems than 120 years ago? No. All the infections for which medicine had no reliable cures? And don't wax nostalgic for Doctor Quack's Curative Elixir that could solve everything from teething pain to cancer. If you think that the world is a mess now, then think what it was like when a huge part of the rule was under the rule of colonial overlords. The life for an industrial worker was typically a seventy-hour workweek and a forty-year lifespan, with the children being dragooned into industrial work as their parents started to go into career decline around age thirty-five. Say what you want about the Third World today, conditions really were Third World in the Garment District.

[Classic-Xer]

(02-01-2021, 02:39 PM)Einzige Wrote:

(02-01-2021, 02:06 PM)David Horn Wrote:

(02-01-2021, 12:58 PM)Einzige Wrote: Can any of you describe the political economy of Team Fed or Team Blue in any systemic way?

For this, you must paint with a sprayer, because it's all over the map.

I can pretty well do so.

Team Red theoretically supports free markets and low taxes. In actuality it subsidizes domestic manufacturers and extractive industries, with roots in the Army and Marines (of course the militry skews conservative in general, but these are the political mainstays of the GOP there), as well as agriculture. This creates contradictions between its social base and theoretical superstructure.

Team Blue ostensibly supports leveling social programs and unions. In actuality it subsidizes foreign trade oriented industries and the emerging green and IT sectors; in the military its strength mostly lies in the Navy and Air Force. This produces contradictions between its social base and theoretical superstructure.

The interplay of these contradictions drives the dialectic of American politics.

Marxism works.

Team Red theoretically supports limited government and supports the Constitution, individual rights, the entire military (the sailors, the airmen, the infantry, special forces, marines and whoever directly commands them) and fiscal prudence as well.  If there's a contraction it's over remaining true to beliefs pertaining to limited government and fiscal prudence. The Rhino's (JFK minded Democrats/Reagan Democrats) value big government and the use of government to serve its interests and spending massive amounts of money about as much as the Blue Team. The Rhino's are pretty much on their way out at the moment (5 Senators/10 Congress people). The rest have fallen in line with the American Right's populist movement.

I know that you don't like either team and you'd prefer a team that represents pure Marxism and prefer to live in a world that's costs nothing where no one owns anything where no one cares about anything valuable and everyone is completely selfless and motivate by the goodness of producing then sharing but that world doesn't exist so you'll have to choose between the two or learn to accept whichever you view as the worst of the two and the greater threat to you personally.

[Classic-Xer]

(02-02-2021, 01:16 AM)pbrower2a Wrote:

(02-01-2021, 11:59 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(02-01-2021, 05:31 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(02-01-2021, 03:56 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Bob Butler 54

(01-31-2021, 08:12 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: As a matter of fact, its more likely the Democratic party fractures and implodes before the American right disappears these days.

Well, not if you look at history.  The old values generally collapse in a crisis.

If you look at American history, you'll see that America has always prevailed. You're tied to the DNC. We're not tied to the GOP or the DNC. We are free to break with tradition, cut ties with the Democratic party and reestablish an American based nation.

Not really.  In every crisis, the largest problems with the culture are addressed.  This is the second time, with the US Civil War being the first, that race has played a large role in a crisis.  That is when the two cultures primarily go head to head.  In such cases, as in most cases, America has stepped further away from the Agricultural Age patterns.  It has been the rural, conservative, cavalier faction that ends up adjusting its values.

But you wind up scrambling facts and history to support your mindset.  People do not alter their mindsets without a traumatic trauma, and it seems that you do not value lives enough to be traumatized.  Thus, you are stuck with your existing values.

I'm not tied to a particular view/belief of a theory nor do I have an emotional  attachment to particular   outcome like you  either. Unlike you, I'm opened minded   and using common sense.  Dude, the Democratic side supports the murder of millions of humans each year. You are on the side that values unfettered abortion right.

In 2018, 619,591 legal induced abortions were reported to CDC from 49 reporting areas. Among 48 reporting areas with data each year during 2009–2018, in 2018, a total of 614,820 abortions were reported, the abortion rate was 11.3 abortions per 1,000 women aged 15–44 years, and the abortion ratio was 189 abortions per 1,000 live births.


https://www.cdc.gov/reproductivehealth/d.../index.htm

Don't exaggerate.

Quote:You'd be wise to consider that the next time you open your mouth about others unwillingness to do/sacrifice anything to save your lives. We are stepping away from industrial age pattern this time. You represent the old industrial age values like big government, centralized power, quasi socialism, unionization and so forth. In short, the reality is that the old Left has gone full circle and has pretty sold out.

That's odd! The Right has found itself increasingly amenable to Big Government which can provide lucrative contracts, enforce anti-competitive tendencies in business, promote wars for profit, and make money off welfare. Big Business has no problem with SNAP because it turns potential shoplifters into customers. (that's fine for me, too, because food security is a legitimate issue). Big Government means big roads, big hydroelectric projects, and military bases. 

The big change is that manufacturing has become a smaller share of economic activity over time. We really aren't buying more stuff. Economic reality has become more precarious. Unions are the only reliable friends of the working person, and the weakening of unions corresponds closely to the decline of real wages.  

Quote: The new Left   is back to (where) the old Left started during the turn of the last century with a lot more people,  a lot  more problems of all kinds and a much higher hurdle/larger gap than there was  back then. We're talking about millions of  third world level people Bob. Whose problem is it, it's not America's problem, it's a Democratic/round head problem that the Democratic party has been ignoring, acting as if  it's not a problem and not dealing with or properly addressing  and doing little to nothing to stop and politically accommodating/protecting for years. Who the hell do you think we are dude, a bunch of pandering/blathering idiots/ partisan hacks like you guys.

Far more problems than 120 years ago? No. All the infections for which medicine had no reliable cures? And don't wax nostalgic for Doctor Quack's Curative Elixir that could solve everything from teething pain to cancer. If you think that the world is a mess now, then think what it was like when a huge part of the rule was under the rule of colonial overlords. The life for an industrial worker was typically a seventy-hour workweek and a forty-year lifespan, with the children being dragooned into industrial work as their parents started to go into career decline around age thirty-five. Say what you want about the Third World today, conditions really were Third World in the Garment District.

PB, you're not paying attention as usual. Enzige is telling you what he thinks. Mamabug is telling you what she thinks. I'm telling you what I think. You have three different perspectives by three different people telling you the same thing about the party that you're pretty much all in on with no possibility of turning back at this point. If the Democrats shove a bunch of shit down our throats, you can expect the same in return because this is the Democratic party's last chance at unity.

[Classic-Xer]

(02-01-2021, 07:42 AM)pbrower2a Wrote:

(02-01-2021, 05:31 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(02-01-2021, 03:56 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Bob Butler 54

(01-31-2021, 08:12 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: As a matter of fact, its more likely the Democratic party fractures and implodes before the American right disappears these days.

Well, not if you look at history.  The old values generally collapse in a crisis.

If you look at American history, you'll see that America has always prevailed. You're tied to the DNC. We're not tied to the GOP or the DNC. We are free to break with tradition, cut ties with the Democratic party and reestablish an American based nation.

Not really.  In every crisis, the largest problems with the culture are addressed.  This is the second time, with the US Civil War being the first, that race has played a large role in a crisis.  That is when the two cultures primarily go head to head.  In such cases, as in most cases, America has stepped further away from the Agricultural Age patterns.  It has been the rural, conservative, cavalier faction that ends up adjusting its values.

But you wind up scrambling facts and history to support your mindset.  People do not alter their mindsets without a traumatic trauma, and it seems that you do not value lives enough to be traumatized.  Thus, you are stuck with your existing values.

As usual, Classic X'er fails to recognize that what "America" means changes as the population changes. As the population changes  even what constitutes tradition changes. We need remember that we all face the same economic and existential questions of the time.  

We are going to see certain ways of life more vulnerable to the Big Kill of this Crisis. The poor are obvious enough. I can also see certain patterns of life more likely to kill... People make their adjustments or risk dying.

How many years has America stood as laws were changed and new laws were implemented and new amendments were added while cultural norms, popular trends and common beliefs changed with the generations? Where are we at, 245 years? America fought a war over laws pertaining to slavery and abolished them and sealed its fate with a Constitutional Amendment. So, why are there so many minorities in congress these days and leadership positions who are flapping their gums and egging on rioters and agreeing that systematic racism still exists when none them should be in their positions if that was actually true these days.

[Einzige]

Quote: Team Red theoretically supports limited government and supports the Constitution, individual rights, the entire military (the sailors, the airmen, the infantry, special forces, marines and whoever directly commands them) and fiscal prudence as well.

Except none of this, of course, is actually true. Team Red were the ones who initiated Prohibition (in the name of moral purity), the War on Drugs (in the name of moral purity), the War on Crime (in the name of moral purity), authorized the Patriot Act (with help from Joe Biden), stoked the flames of the Moral Majority in the 80s, defended laws discriminating against LGBTQ+ people, etc. They don't actually care about muh freedoms. They care about market freedoms, and only then when they serve their own party.

Quote:. The Rhino's (JFK minded Democrats/Reagan Democrats) value big government and the use of government to serve its interests and spending massive amounts of money about as much as the Blue Team. The Rhino's are pretty much on their way out at the moment (5 Senators/10 Congress people). The rest have fallen in line with the American Right's populist movement.

Donald Trump spent more in office than Obama....

Quote:I know that you don't like either team and you'd prefer a team that represents pure Marxism and prefer to live in a world that's costs nothing where no one owns anything

People own personal property under Communism.

Quote:where no one cares about anything valuable and everyone is completely selfless and motivate by the goodness of producing then sharing

Negative. That is not Marxism. From The German Ideology.

Quote:Communism is quite incomprehensible to our saint because the communists do not oppose egoism to selflessness or selflessness to egoism, nor do they express this contradiction theoretically either in its sentimental or ‘it its high-flown ideological form; they rather demonstrate its material source, with which it disappears of itself. The communists do not preach morality at all, as Stirner does so extensively. They do not put to people the moral demand: love one another, do not be egoists, etc.; on the contrary, they are very well aware that egoism, just as much as selflessness, is in definite circumstances a necessary form of the self-assertion of individuals. Hence, the communists by no means want, as Saint Max believes, and as his loyal Dottore Graziano (Arnold Ruge) repeats after him (for which Saint Max calls him “an unusually cunning and politic mind”, Wigand, p. 192), to do away with the “private individual” for the sake of the “general”, selfless man. That is a figment of the imagination concerning which both of them could already have found the necessary explanation in the Deutsch-Französische Jahrbücher. Communist theoreticians, the only communists who have time to devote to the study of history, are distinguished precisely by the fact that they alone have discovered that throughout history the “general interest” is created by individuals who are defined as “private persons”. They know that this contradiction is only a seeming one because one side of it, what is called the “general interest”, is constantly being produced by the other side, private interest, and in relation to the latter it is by no means an independent force with an independent history — so that this contradiction is in practice constantly destroyed and reproduced. Hence it is not a question of the Hegelian “negative unity” of two sides of a contradiction, but of the materially determined destruction of the preceding materially determined mode of life of individuals, with the disappearance of which this contradiction together with its unity also disappears.

Under Communism, one produces because there is social utility in it - there are more personal benefits to production under Communism than under capitalism.
 

Quote:but that world doesn't exist so you'll have to choose between the two or learn to accept whichever you view as the worst of the two and the greater threat to you personally.

Why?

[Bob Butler 54]

It is amusing to see the two arch enemy red parties go after one another, but for this conversation could one of you accept the pink label? Which of the two is falling apart faster?

[Einzige]

(02-02-2021, 11:01 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: It is amusing to see the two arch enemy red parties go after one another, but for this conversation could one of you accept the pink label?  Which of the two is falling apart faster?

I don't consider Communism any more especially opposed to capitalist conservatism than to capitalist progressivism, which supports the tech sector as a totalitarian force and uses welfare to buy off the lumpen and lower proletaria and to keep money circulating. Communism is not "blue team, but more so". And this understanding of Communism is growing, though venues like r/Ultraleft, r/Shitleftoidssay, r/marxism_201, YouTubers like Xexixzy and anarchopac and CuckPhilosophy, etc. There has been a major theoretical movement away from social democracy (muh pink team) and Stalinism and towards actual programmatical Marxism. Still overwhelmingly outnumbered by the Stalinoids and succdems, to be sure, and many of us leftcoms still struggle with bourgeois  delusions, but less so.

[Bob Butler 54]

(02-02-2021, 11:08 AM)Einzige Wrote:

(02-02-2021, 11:01 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: It is amusing to see the two arch enemy red parties go after one another, but for this conversation could one of you accept the pink label?  Which of the two is falling apart faster?

I don't consider Communism any more especially opposed to capitalist conservatism than to capitalist progressivism, which supports the tech sector as a totalitarian force and uses welfare to buy off the lumpen and lower proletaria and to keep money circulating. Communism is not "blue team, but more so". And this understanding of Communism is growing, though venues like r/Ultraleft, r/Shitleftoidssay, r/marxism_201, YouTubers like Xexixzy and anarchopac and CuckPhilosophy, etc. There has been a major theoretical movement away from social democracy (muh pink team) and Stalinism and towards actual programmatical Marxism. Still overwhelmingly outnumbered by the Stalinoids and succdems, to be sure, and many of us leftcoms still struggle with bourgeois  delusions, but less so.

Since Marx wrote his theories around the time of the Mexican War, Democracies have learned to change their culture through non violence, protest and legislation. If violence is the last resort, non violence would be preferred to revolution.

The problem is that non-violence is of limited use against autocratic regimes. They just ignore their people generally. If violent revolution is to be cost effective or necessary, it will occur there.

You just have to work on how to control the thugs once the best thugs have risen to the top.

The problems are also not becoming greater. Things were much worse in the Gilded Age. Capitol was more the common denominator, the correct lens to view all other problems. Today? Not so much.

So I think your version of red should take the pink label.

[mamabug]

(02-02-2021, 12:39 AM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(02-01-2021, 11:48 AM)mamabug Wrote:

(02-01-2021, 01:34 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: Donald Trump left plenty of warning signs. He has huge funds and he gets attached to a porn star. He is taped talking about grabbing women by their "kitty cats". He mocks  the handicapped. He denounces people for their religion and ethnicity.  A bit fewer than 46% or the American electorate vote for him in 2016, and an even larger share vote for him in 2020. Character is destiny, and people of bad character eventually get bad results even if they have competence and talent. Just look at Bill Cosby, Harvey Weinstein, and Phil Spector. 

Again, nothing you say about him changes the fact that there were a number of people who voted for him despite all of that simply because, in a binary system, the things his administration might or might not accomplish was preferable than the policy agenda of his opponent.

The moral objectionability of Trump allowed the left to spend four years pretending that vote didn't happen and try to figure out how to jury rig the system so that it would never happen again instead of regrouping and determining why the loss actually happened and coming back with a stronger, better party that appealed to more than a bare majority of America.   Continuing to act as if nobody except a racist would have voted for him is furthering this ostrich-like mindset and is only going to further the partisan divide.

But, I'm getting tired of being Cassandra so I may just have to stop engaging in discussions on this topic.  I've made my points, consider them or not.

"a person whose valid warnings or concerns are disbelieved by others." Who is Cassandra depends on your views. People like me have been warning against free-market economics and the moral minority for well over 40 years.

To people like me, warning of further partisan division now is like warning about a storm that has already come and flooded the city. Why should I care? The only point is who is going to win.

I agree, lots of Republican and Republican-leaning voters supported Trump as a matter of course because he pledged to support their favorite policies, like pro-gun, anti-abortion, anti-tax, anti-immigrant, pro-business etc. Racism is a hidden factor in much of this, as well as religious conservatism, but it's not the only reason people voted for Trump. It just stirred up a lot of hate that was hidden before. People like me on the Left called him a fake president, because he was unqualified for the job, and we wondered why that was not a factor in peoples' votes. "Jury-rigging the system" on the Democrats' part consisted of efforts, only somewhat successful, to end the jury-rigging the Republicans and our founding fathers had done, especially voter suppression laws, voter-roll purges, poll closings in Democratic-voting areas and so on.

The Democrats did come back with a stronger party and a better candidate in 2020. Biden won over 7 million more votes than Trump, and still barely won the White House because of the outdated electoral college that favors small and former slave states. If the Democrats don't choose Harris to run in 2024, they should continue to get stronger, since they are interested in real problems, and since the country is becoming more diverse and less wedded to ancient ideologies. If Republicans cling to Trump they will lose ground and perhaps disappear. If the Democrats continue to give-in to or adopt Republican policies, they will continue to appear weak and ineffective and will also lose ground, and so will the nation. What needs to happen is that more people need to learn that Democratic Party policies work and are better than the Republican Party policies.

Trump blatantly appealed to racism throughout his 5-year political career, and did not care about police shootings more than he did about using supposed riots to stoke his vote. That helped his chances to win, and it also further divided the nation much more than correctly attributing his support in part to racism would.

Eric, I kinda like you, but sometimes you illustrate to me just how bat sh*t insane and immersed in a narrative disconnected from reality the modern left has become, at least when compared to those I admired in my youth.  Some of the statements you casually throw out as Truth™ are exactly why I worry about the fate of dissenters in the remaining parts of the 4T and just  how totalitarian the 1T will be.

[pbrower2a]

(02-01-2021, 11:48 AM)mamabug Wrote:

(02-01-2021, 01:34 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: Donald Trump left plenty of warning signs. He has huge funds and he gets attached to a porn star. He is taped talking about grabbing women by their "kitty cats". He mocks  the handicapped. He denounces people for their religion and ethnicity.  A bit fewer than 46% or the American electorate vote for him in 2016, and an even larger share vote for him in 2020. Character is destiny, and people of bad character eventually get bad results even if they have competence and talent. Just look at Bill Cosby, Harvey Weinstein, and Phil Spector. 

Again, nothing you say about him changes the fact that there were a number of people who voted for him despite all of that simply because, in a binary system, the things his administration might or might not accomplish was preferable than the policy agenda of his opponent.

OK. So the vote for Trump was not based upon some conventions of morality. We should thus quit assuming that the Right has "morality" as an objective. As the old bumper sticker of liberals said at the time, "The Moral Majority is neither". It was heavily associated with a cultural shift in the Mountain and Deep South in which an aggressive wing of the Southern Baptist Church largely cannibalized the old Presbyterian churches of the regions, replacing a church that was much less political with one that was stridently political -- and reactionary. It was delighted to sell out to reactionary economics to win the support of capitalists outside the Mountain and Deep South to attract sponsorship. 

Remember that the Presbyterian Church is Calvinist. It offers an austere expression of Christianity; it is Low Church in its rejection of elaborate ritual and imagery. Presbyterian churches reject even church organs -- the musical instruments -- and anything that even resembles an icon such as a stained-glass window. But the original Calvinism as the doctrine that economic success is evidence of God's Blessing and that economic failure is evidence of God's Curse tended to go into the background as reality showed otherwise.  An ally of the Southern Baptists is the Pentecostal churches such as the Assemblies of God, which is even more blatant in the expression of the Wealth Cult. Pentecostal Christians tend to have low Social-Economic Status (SES) and, as one frequent poster puts it, poor impulse control that poorly serves educational achievement and vocational development. Note well that so authoritarian an establishment as the Roman Catholic Church or the Church of Latter Day Saints can sponsor colleges with academic rigor. One can attend Notre Dame or BYU and get a high-quality education. Jimmy Swaggart University? That's good for some laughs, but not for academic respect or career advancement in the secular world. Anti-intellectualism that goes beyond disdain for some wayward academic or creative person is for economic losers. 

As the Presbyterian Church weakened in the South, the political Right arose there. States like Arkansas, Missouri, Louisiana, Tennessee, and Georgia that typically went D (or in 1948 or 1968 to racist secessions from the Democratic party) started going Republican in most elections. With this political Right comes an attitude that no human suffering can ever be too severe so long as it enriches, indulges, and empowers the economic elites. The region went from populist to plutocratic. As late as 1996 Democrats still could win in this area at the Presidential level. Then they lost most elections for the House. Then they lost all but one Senate seat in this region. The Republican Party in the Mountain and Deep South is a firm believer in economic sadism (Or as I am tempted to call it "Sadonomics".

The Tea Party is much the same except for being less strident about such nonsense as Creationism. It has the backing of many economic elites outside the South. It is anti-abortion, as it is clearly plutocratic and militaristic. Abortion has the offense of preventing the births of future cheap labor in the "dark satanic mills" and, of course, cannon fodder for wars for profit (wars themselves and, after victory, neocolonial control of markets, resources, and super-cheap labor). The Tea Party aligned itself heavily with the firearms and fossil fuel industries hostile to political liberalism, and it got lavish backing. Trump is the third stage, the expression of F--- Y-- rhetoric toward anyone who fails to accept the anti-intellectual, racist, and plutocratic threads of the American Right .
                  

Quote:The moral objectionability of Trump allowed the left to spend four years pretending that vote didn't happen and try to figure out how to jury rig the system so that it would never happen again instead of regrouping and determining why the loss actually happened and coming back with a stronger, better party that appealed to more than a bare majority of America.   Continuing to act as if nobody except a racist would have voted for him is furthering this ostrich-like mindset and is only going to further the partisan divide.

Worth remembering: America has model minorities that may not be white, Christian, or straight. Trump did win heavily among white Cuban-Americans in Florida, but he did not do so well among Latino Americans who are at most ambiguously white. The black bourgeoisie, Asian-Americans, Arab-Americans, Jews, Muslims, non-Cuban Hispanics, and the LGBT are not as amenable to attempts to punish the poor. The distinction between White America and African-Americans in politics seems to be that well-off black people care about not-so-well-off black people... and white America tends not to care about the white poor (largely in the Mountain and Deep South). Mexican-Americans are much like blacks in that respect. 

Note well that model minorities are the people most vulnerable to racist, demagogic assaults on their assets, careers, and personal safety. The extreme example was Jews in Germany. German Jews thought themselves Germans, and Austrian Jews thought themselves Austrians. It is telling that Austrian Jews were among the most strident monarchists in Austria (OK, Otto von Habsburg was about as good an expression of constitutional monarchy as there ever was). Most of us would likely agree that the world would have been far better off had six million Germans and Austrians had converted to Judaism than, well, something that almost everyone regrets. I've taken a swipe at neo-Nazis to the effect that if I had to choose between being a Nazi and converting to Judaism I would find Judaism no compromise to my morals and the German part of my cultural heritage. Model Minorities are always vulnerable in times of political chaos and economic calamity. Note well how the Model Minorities of America voted; they saved America from the proto-fascist ideology of Donald Trump. 

Quote: But, I'm getting tired of being Cassandra so I may just have to stop engaging in discussions on this topic.  I've made my points, consider them or not.

Now if

(1) middle-income white people started voting like middle-class black people, or
(2) middle-class white people started giving a damn about the welfare of poor white largely in the M&D South...

America would get the renewal that it needs.