New Archetype Names!

[jleagans]

The archetype names suck.  They can't be used with a straight face.  "Hero" alone means the archetypes would never be accepted by all four generations.  We need names that aren't insulting or overly flattering to any of the generations, and have some intrinsic relationship to the qualities of the generation. 

My proposals:

Hero-> Civic Generation

Artist->Sheltered Generation 

Nomads probably still works

Prophets-> Conflict Generation 

I don't really like "sheltered generation", and doubt "conflict generation" would work either, but its the best I've come to so far.  

______________________________________________

David Horn made the suggestions on the Reddit of "unsettled" for Nomads and "adaptive" for the Artists.  

Imo unsettled isn't something X would willingly call itself, and I don't totally buy that the Artists are actually adaptive.  I agree in that the Artists are "institutionalists" that roughly go along with the norms of society, but that's what makes them squishy and unlikely to ever accomplish anything :  .    

I think there may be some value in calling the Prophets the "conflicts" and getting society to go along with it, as it can help us prepare for the conflict they bring in advance.  For example, if Alphas start this year in 2021 we should expect the "summer of love" and wild '60's to hit in 2042, and shouldn't be surprised when it does.

[Captain Genet]

My proposal is:
-Dreamers for Artists
-Moralists for Prophets
-Entertainers for Nomads
-Builders for Civics

Other name ideas:
-Romantic and Modernist saeculums for S&H's civil war and great power saeculum. My names have more worldwide appeal.
-Social Gospel awakening for the awakening of late 19th century
-I'd love to call Boomers and Millenials the Polarized and Onliner generation but it is waaay too late to change that

[Tim Randal Walker]

"Nomad" is the best description I have come across for that archetype. Better than "Reactive", which could be confused with "Adaptive".

I prefer "Civic" to "Hero" for that archetype. With the Gilded as an example, I believe that Nomads can be shoe horned into a Hero role.

Don't care much for "Adaptive", but prefer it to "Artist"-any archetypal generation can have artists, such as painter, sculptors, musicians, etc.

[Eric the Green]

(02-26-2021, 10:04 AM)Tim Randal Walker Wrote: "Nomad" is the best description I have come across for that archetype.  Better than "Reactive", which could be confused with "Adaptive".

I prefer "Civic" to "Hero" for that archetype.  With the Gilded as an example, I believe that Nomads can be shoe horned into a Hero role.

Don't care much for "Adaptive", but prefer it to "Artist"-any archetypal generation can have artists, such as painter, sculptors, musicians, etc.

Agreed. "Reactive" is also too pejorative, although S&H didn't mean it to be.

[David Horn]

(02-28-2021, 02:34 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(02-26-2021, 10:04 AM)Tim Randal Walker Wrote: "Nomad" is the best description I have come across for that archetype.  Better than "Reactive", which could be confused with "Adaptive".

I prefer "Civic" to "Hero" for that archetype.  With the Gilded as an example, I believe that Nomads can be shoe horned into a Hero role.

Don't care much for "Adaptive", but prefer it to "Artist"-any archetypal generation can have artists, such as painter, sculptors, musicians, etc.

Agreed. "Reactive" is also too pejorative, although S&H didn't mean it to be.

In a way, it is more descriptive, though. There is a very decided reaction to the excesses of the Prophets (or whatever name seems better).  I don't think Moralist fits in place of Prophet, though Proactive may be a good description, but not very inspiring.

I doubt there is a great fit, because each archetype needs to cover many generations over time, and they do differ substantially.

[Tim Randal Walker]

I have preferred "Idealist", rather than "Prophet".

[David Horn]

(02-28-2021, 08:20 PM)Tim Randal Walker Wrote: I have preferred "Idealist", rather than "Prophet".

Yes, I agree that's a better if not a perfect choice. Since I don't think there is a perfect choice, Idealist is best so far. FWIW, it's impossible to characterize the dominant archetypes in multiple saecula using any single designation.  For example, Boomers are similar to Transcendentals in many ways, but less-so with the Missionaries that are the interstitial Idealists.  Of course, this also applies to the other archetypes too.

[Eric the Green]

(02-28-2021, 04:10 PM)David Horn Wrote:

(02-28-2021, 02:34 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(02-26-2021, 10:04 AM)Tim Randal Walker Wrote: "Nomad" is the best description I have come across for that archetype.  Better than "Reactive", which could be confused with "Adaptive".

I prefer "Civic" to "Hero" for that archetype.  With the Gilded as an example, I believe that Nomads can be shoe horned into a Hero role.

Don't care much for "Adaptive", but prefer it to "Artist"-any archetypal generation can have artists, such as painter, sculptors, musicians, etc.

Agreed. "Reactive" is also too pejorative, although S&H didn't mean it to be.

In a way, it is more descriptive, though. There is a very decided reaction to the excesses of the Prophets (or whatever name seems better).  I don't think Moralist fits in place of Prophet, though Proactive may be a good description, but not very inspiring.

I doubt there is a great fit, because each archetype needs to cover many generations over time, and they do differ substantially.

I like "Prophet" very much. It includes the aspect of a generation propelled by a spiritual awakening, something many people have forgotten about in our 4T times, but which many of us boomers like me resonate with totally. "Idealist" is misleading, as it suggests that prophet generations are driven by liberal ideals for the future. But this archetype seems to split between liberal and conservative, and I don't agree that conservatives like George W Bush or Donald Trump are "idealists." They, like others of this archetype, do adhere to and promote or impose ideologies, even plans conceived on a large-scale-- and rather too self-righteously and rigidly. But ideologies and values and such are not necessarily beneficent and liberal, as the word "idealist" implies. I prefer myself to reserve the word for those who hold and promote beneficent, liberal ideals. And certainly Boomers have much in common with Missionaries, just as the 2Ts in which they were young were very similar.

This is similar I guess as to how I want the word "populist" restored to its original meaning. Now it just means appealing to the prejudices of the "ignorant common rabble." I would rather put the responsibility upon the common people to be truly interested in the power of the people, and I think we all have enough intelligence to know when we are being led astray by having our prejudices and fears stoked-- even though today's trumpers and xenophobes grossly fail to do this. And who are the common people? Are supposedly well-educated people and academics not part of the common people too? I prefer "the elite" to be correctly defined too, as the group that have the power that all the people should have instead, not the intelligencia or academics or entertainers or journalists as conservatives today want to define it as.

[Eric the Green]

(02-28-2021, 04:10 PM)David Horn Wrote:

(02-28-2021, 02:34 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(02-26-2021, 10:04 AM)Tim Randal Walker Wrote: "Nomad" is the best description I have come across for that archetype.  Better than "Reactive", which could be confused with "Adaptive".

I prefer "Civic" to "Hero" for that archetype.  With the Gilded as an example, I believe that Nomads can be shoe horned into a Hero role.

Don't care much for "Adaptive", but prefer it to "Artist"-any archetypal generation can have artists, such as painter, sculptors, musicians, etc.

Agreed. "Reactive" is also too pejorative, although S&H didn't mean it to be.

In a way, it is more descriptive, though. There is a very decided reaction to the excesses of the Prophets (or whatever name seems better).  I don't think Moralist fits in place of Prophet, though Proactive may be a good description, but not very inspiring.

I doubt there is a great fit, because each archetype needs to cover many generations over time, and they do differ substantially.

I don't think the Generation X/Lost archetype should be defined only by how they reacted to the prophet Boomers and Missionaries, etc. They have their own identity, not just one based on reaction to another archetype. I think S&H meant the term "Reactive" to signify an experimental attitude, an ability to respond and act in bold and adventurous ways; very situational and realistic, pragmatic, often cynical or gruff, and going off in their own direction; independent, self-reliant and inner-directed, although not introspective or philosophical like prophets are supposed to be and often are. But "reactive" is a poor word for this. Nomad is a bit better, at least.

[Eric the Green]

(02-26-2021, 02:55 AM)Captain Genet Wrote: My proposal is:
-Dreamers for Artists
-Moralists for Prophets
-Entertainers for Nomads
-Builders for Civics

Other name ideas:
-Romantic and Modernist saeculums for S&H's civil war and great power saeculum. My names have more worldwide appeal.
-Social Gospel awakening for the awakening of late 19th century
-I'd love to call Boomers and Millennials the Polarized and Onliner generation but it is waaay too late to change that

Your names for the saecula seem very apt to me. Otherwise, for the generations: nice try, but I prefer the original names.

[David Horn]

(03-01-2021, 01:34 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: I like "Prophet" very much. It includes the aspect of a generation propelled by a spiritual awakening, something many people have forgotten about in our 4T times, but which many of us boomers like me resonate with totally. "Idealist" is misleading, as it suggests that prophet generations are driven by liberal ideals for the future. But this archetype seems to split between liberal and conservative, and I don't agree that conservatives like George W Bush or Donald Trump are "idealists." They, like others of this archetype, do adhere to and promote ideologies-- rather too self-righteously and rigidly. But ideologies and values and such are not necessarily beneficent and liberal, as the word "idealist" implies. I prefer myself to reserve the word for those who hold and promote beneficent, liberal ideals. And certainly Boomers have much in common with Missionaries, just as the 2Ts in which they were young were very similar.

This is similar I guess as to how I want the word "populist" restored to its original meaning. Now it just means appealing to the prejudices of the "ignorant common rabble." I would rather put the responsibility upon the common people to be truly interested in the power of the people, and I think we all have enough intelligence to know when we are being led astray by having our prejudices and fears stoked. Even though today's trumpers and xenophobes grossly fail to do this. And who are the common people? Are supposedly well-educated people and academics not part of the common people too? I prefer "the elite" to be correctly defined too, as the group that have the power that all the people should have instead, not the intelligencia or academics or entertainers or journalists as conservatives today want to define it as.

Let me raise another undeniable point: we all see things through our own eyes, and act accordingly. So Trumpers of any given gen are the polar opposite of the Bernie Bros of the same gen, yet both share an archetype. Typically, the one aspect that is truly the same is disposition. We Boomers are opinionated and cranky, regardless of what makes us that way. Maybe that's the baseline.

That said, I'm still baffled by the obsequious nature of the MAGA crowd -- knowing full well how irredeemable their hero is in real life. They smell a skunk, yet admire the fine odor.

[David Horn]

(03-01-2021, 01:43 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: I don't think the Generation X/Lost archetype should be defined only by how they reacted to the prophet Boomers and Missionaries, etc. They have their own identity, not just one based on reaction to another archetype. I think S&H meant the term "Reactive" to signify an experimental attitude, an ability to respond and act in bold and adventurous ways; very situational and realistic, pragmatic, often cynical or gruff, and going off in their own direction; independent, self-reliant and inner-directed, although not introspective or philosophical like prophets are supposed to be and often are. But "reactive" is a poor word for this. Nomad is a bit better, at least.

Yet it was those prior generations that set the tone that moved the next gens to oppose them.

[Eric the Green]

(01-16-2021, 09:11 AM)jleagans Wrote: I think there may be some value in calling the Prophets the "conflicts" and getting society to go along with it, as it can help us prepare for the conflict they bring in advance.  For example, if Alphas start this year in 2021 we should expect the "summer of love" and wild '60's to hit in 2042, and shouldn't be surprised when it does.

Expect this to come circa 2046-47, and definitely not in 2042. Word to the wise, and bank on it! The alpha wave breaks in 2025; those will be its first cohorts.

Expect 2041 to start a rather brief, calm institutional period in which economic elites increase their power, followed by an attempt to make the economy more globalized in circa 2043, with some loud resistance. Expect the early 2040s to mirror the early 1960s and early 1880s.

[Eric the Green]

(03-01-2021, 02:01 PM)David Horn Wrote:

(03-01-2021, 01:43 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: I don't think the Generation X/Lost archetype should be defined only by how they reacted to the prophet Boomers and Missionaries, etc. They have their own identity, not just one based on reaction to another archetype. I think S&H meant the term "Reactive" to signify an experimental attitude, an ability to respond and act in bold and adventurous ways; very situational and realistic, pragmatic, often cynical or gruff, and going off in their own direction; independent, self-reliant and inner-directed, although not introspective or philosophical like prophets are supposed to be and often are. But "reactive" is a poor word for this. Nomad is a bit better, at least.

Yet it was those prior generations that set the tone that moved the next gens to oppose them.

So then all generations are "reactives." And not just to the immediately prior ones. Boomers "reacted" mostly to the GIs, and were inspired by the Silent "Artists" as well as going in a new direction from those Silents who submitted to the way things were. Gen X does not just oppose Boomers. They are supposed, at least, to be the managers that carry out the boomers' plans. See for example 1964 Xers Kamala Harris and Susan Rice. In our Crisis era I would suggest these blue Xers are becoming just what S&H said they would be now, and we are seeing more blue Xers come to the fore, instead of the Reaganoid ones that predominated in the 3T and early 4T-- they being the ones that reacted so poorly as they often should not have done to the boomers and silents. Like our Classic Xer.

[Eric the Green]

(03-01-2021, 01:57 PM)David Horn Wrote:

(03-01-2021, 01:34 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: I like "Prophet" very much. It includes the aspect of a generation propelled by a spiritual awakening, something many people have forgotten about in our 4T times, but which many of us boomers like me resonate with totally. "Idealist" is misleading, as it suggests that prophet generations are driven by liberal ideals for the future. But this archetype seems to split between liberal and conservative, and I don't agree that conservatives like George W Bush or Donald Trump are "idealists." They, like others of this archetype, do adhere to and promote ideologies-- rather too self-righteously and rigidly. But ideologies and values and such are not necessarily beneficent and liberal, as the word "idealist" implies. I prefer myself to reserve the word for those who hold and promote beneficent, liberal ideals. And certainly Boomers have much in common with Missionaries, just as the 2Ts in which they were young were very similar.

This is similar I guess as to how I want the word "populist" restored to its original meaning. Now it just means appealing to the prejudices of the "ignorant common rabble." I would rather put the responsibility upon the common people to be truly interested in the power of the people, and I think we all have enough intelligence to know when we are being led astray by having our prejudices and fears stoked. Even though today's trumpers and xenophobes grossly fail to do this. And who are the common people? Are supposedly well-educated people and academics not part of the common people too? I prefer "the elite" to be correctly defined too, as the group that have the power that all the people should have instead, not the intelligencia or academics or entertainers or journalists as conservatives today want to define it as.

Let me raise another undeniable point: we all see things through our own eyes, and act accordingly.  So Trumpers of any given gen are the polar opposite of the Bernie Bros of the same gen, yet both share an archetype.  Typically, the one aspect that is truly the same is disposition.  We Boomers are opinionated and cranky, regardless of what makes us that way.  Maybe that's the baseline.

That said, I'm still baffled by the obsequious nature of the MAGA crowd -- knowing full well how irredeemable their hero is in real life.  They smell a skunk, yet admire the fine odor.

I agree more with these statements. The trumpers truly have been led astray by a talented demagogue. But Drumpface is no populist.

[David Horn]

(03-01-2021, 02:06 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(03-01-2021, 02:01 PM)David Horn Wrote:

(03-01-2021, 01:43 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: I don't think the Generation X/Lost archetype should be defined only by how they reacted to the prophet Boomers and Missionaries, etc. They have their own identity, not just one based on reaction to another archetype. I think S&H meant the term "Reactive" to signify an experimental attitude, an ability to respond and act in bold and adventurous ways; very situational and realistic, pragmatic, often cynical or gruff, and going off in their own direction; independent, self-reliant and inner-directed, although not introspective or philosophical like prophets are supposed to be and often are. But "reactive" is a poor word for this. Nomad is a bit better, at least.

Yet it was those prior generations that set the tone that moved the next gens to oppose them.

So then all generations are "reactives." And not just to the immediately prior ones. Boomers "reacted" mostly to the GIs, and were inspired by the Silent "Artists" as well as going in a new direction from those Silents who submitted to the way things were. Gen X does not just oppose Boomers. They are supposed, at least, to be the managers that carry out the boomers' plans. See for example 1964 Xers Kamala Harris and Susan Rice. In our Crisis era I would suggest these blue Xers are becoming just what S&H said they would be now, and we are seeing more blue Xers come to the fore, instead of the Reaganoid ones that predominated in the 3T and early 4T-- they being the ones that reacted so poorly as they often should not have done to the boomers and silents. Like our Classic Xer.

There is some truth to that.  The dominant gens are more likely to create blowback that the recessive ones, but even the Adaptives create some opposition.  Look at the change in the music scene between the bland '50s and the Rock explosion that followed. 

And your point about Gen-X is well taken.  They are the managers we Boomers never were.  Without that, there can never be a 1T.

[Captain Genet]

For me "idealist" means a person who is driven by a desire for nobler life, not driven by either carnal pleasure, acquisitive impulses, or glorification of one's tribe. Is Trump an idealist? No, he only cares for money, power and sex. Were hippies idealists? Some people might suppose they were, but a life of sex, drugs and rock'n'roll deserves to be called hedonism, not idealism.

[David Horn]

(03-02-2021, 09:50 AM)Captain Genet Wrote: For me "idealist" means a person who is driven by a desire for nobler life, not driven by either carnal pleasure, acquisitive impulses, or glorification of one's tribe. Is Trump an idealist? No, he only cares for money, power and sex. Were hippies idealists? Some people might suppose they were, but a life of sex, drugs and rock'n'roll deserves to be called hedonism, not idealism.

"Ideal" is in the eye of the beholder.  Your ideal and mine are certainly different, and we're not even at the extremes.  Einzige and newvoter probably agree that air is breathable and water is necessary for life.  Beyond that, their paths diverge dramatically.  Neither could be happy, or even tolerate, living inside the others ideal.

[Eric the Green]

(03-02-2021, 09:50 AM)Captain Genet Wrote: For me "idealist" means a person who is driven by a desire for nobler life, not driven by either carnal pleasure, acquisitive impulses, or glorification of one's tribe. Is Trump an idealist? No, he only cares for money, power and sex. Were hippies idealists? Some people might suppose they were, but a life of sex, drugs and rock'n'roll deserves to be called hedonism, not idealism.

True, but the hippies were idealists, as well as hedonists. They had a vision of a society based on love and sharing. I guess it was described in part by John Lennon's well-known song "Imagine" or the Youngbloods' "Get Together". For me though, idealism goes well beyond a personal conception of a noble life, but a vision of what our lives together can be. That often means political, or economic relations, what our cities should look like, or going back to the land and preserving Nature, etc.

There are some ideals in sex, drugs and rock'n'roll too. Being able to enjoy life, and not just work for a future life or for money, is an ideal. Sex is a power within that is creative, motivating and vitalizing. Drugs included means of expanding consciousness, and used correctly, with proper set and setting, they can connect you with the highest visions and imagination. But they are not for everyone, including me. Rock'n'roll is an art form that can be extremely crass and gross, but also can rise to the highest levels of sensitivity, revelation, elaborate sound and harmonies, blissful joy and physical energy and rhythm. It's a matter of which music you choose. So, the notion of "sex, drugs and rock'n'roll" is not as simple as its detractors claim. (btw the older version of this was "wine, women and song")

My choices of music in the rock/pop field are listed here (and it's highly influenced by the hippie, psychedelic cultures, but not limited to it):
http://philosopherswheel.com/ericrock.html

[Dustinw5220]

(03-01-2021, 01:56 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(02-26-2021, 02:55 AM)Captain Genet Wrote: My proposal is:
-Dreamers for Artists
-Moralists for Prophets
-Entertainers for Nomads
-Builders for Civics

Other name ideas:
-Romantic and Modernist saeculums for S&H's civil war and great power saeculum. My names have more worldwide appeal.
-Social Gospel awakening for the awakening of late 19th century
-I'd love to call Boomers and Millennials the Polarized and Onliner generation but it is waaay too late to change that

Your names for the saecula seem very apt to me. Otherwise, for the generations: nice try, but I prefer the original names.

I concur.