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(01-13-2017, 07:51 AM)Odin Wrote: To me the problem is when people's nice, neat "logical", "rational" ideas start getting in the way of the lives of actual human beings. Libertarians and doctrinaire Marxist-Leninists are good examples of this. Architects, urban planners, and sociologists with grand plans of utopian social engineering also run into this problem, it's one of the reasons the GIs Great Society projects went off the rails.
Yep. I can agree with this. Damn these humans, always getting in the way of improving society. 
This might also touch upon the iNtuitive / Sensor divide. Is one interested in the forest, or the trees?
That this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom, and that government of the people, by the people, for the people shall not perish from the earth.
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No trees, no forest. Individual versus collective.
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated Communist but instead the people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists -- Hannah Arendt.
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(01-13-2017, 10:15 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: No trees, no forest. Individual versus collective.
Exactly.
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Isn't a forest a collective of trees?
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(01-13-2017, 06:16 AM)Danilynn Wrote: Pulling up bootstraps:
Yeah, I understand this and do it daily.
I've worked 2 and 3 jobs at a time my whole life. I still work 2 jobs.
I haven't been able and none of my Xer friends either to go out together because all of us are working like this. See we are taking care of our parents AND our kids.
SO if we seem a bit bitchy, it's because we are tired. Some of us are tired and doing all this while fighting life altering medical stuff. Some of us are just dead inside from exhaustion. I'm tired. I'm exhausted. And I know I'll drop dead working.
People should not have to work 2 or 3 jobs just to get by, but it is quite common in the US today. People should not be worked until they drop dead. This is supposed to be the richest country in the world; it is easy to see that money is worth more than human beings here.
Minimum wage should be increased so that there is an actual advantage to taking a part time job for extra money. For a person in their prime of life trying to provide and care for a household, a PT $7.75 an hour job isn't worth wasting the time on, even if (ideally) it is the sort of job one can forget about after clocking out for the day in order to concentrate on one's main job or other pressing matters. Raising MW to $15 per hour seems rather drastic, but it has been raised substantially in the past. https://www.dol.gov/featured/minimum-wage/chart1 Perhaps a compromise can be found, though only one or two dollars more per hour isn't going to cut it. Paying people fair living wages is the best way to ensure that the "safety net" doesn't become a "hammock."
I am very sorry about your illness. I hope things improve for you. Hopefully you at least have people who care about you and support you, emotionally and in other ways if needed. Woe to those in this country who don't.
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(01-13-2017, 06:16 AM)Danilynn Wrote: Pulling up bootstraps:
Yeah, I understand this and do it daily.
I've worked 2 and 3 jobs at a time my whole life. I still work 2 jobs.
I haven't been able and none of my Xer friends either to go out together because all of us are working like this. See we are taking care of our parents AND our kids.
SO if we seem a bit bitchy, it's because we are tired. Some of us are tired and doing all this while fighting life altering medical stuff. Some of us are just dead inside from exhaustion. I'm tired. I'm exhausted. And I know I'll drop dead working.
get out of here with that crap. no one should have to work 2-3 jobs just to make a living. no one. wake up and stop defending a system that is rigged in favor of the rich. stop it.
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Gah, INFJ, ISFP, you people are almost entirely on the opposite side of every category from me. No wonder you're so often wrong. 
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01-13-2017, 02:03 PM
(This post was last modified: 01-13-2017, 02:04 PM by flbones too.)
have there been any research to prove the actuality of these myers briggs traits?
i've taken the tests few times and gotten a few different results. overall similar but just with slight vairations. generally they're istj or istp. it used to be intj but i don't get that anymore.
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(01-13-2017, 01:53 PM)taramarie Wrote: (01-13-2017, 10:12 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: (01-13-2017, 07:51 AM)Odin Wrote: To me the problem is when people's nice, neat "logical", "rational" ideas start getting in the way of the lives of actual human beings. Libertarians and doctrinaire Marxist-Leninists are good examples of this. Architects, urban planners, and sociologists with grand plans of utopian social engineering also run into this problem, it's one of the reasons the GIs Great Society projects went off the rails.
Yep. I can agree with this. Damn these humans, always getting in the way of improving society.
This might also touch upon the iNtuitive / Sensor divide. Is one interested in the forest, or the trees?
It is not a divide for some types. I am an isfp. The dominant cognitive functions are Fi Se Ni Te. So I have extroverted sensing as well as introverted intuition following just behind it.
I am an INTP
… whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things. Phil 4:8 (ESV)
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(01-13-2017, 02:04 PM)taramarie Wrote: (01-13-2017, 02:01 PM)SomeGuy Wrote: Gah, INFJ, ISFP, you people are almost entirely on the opposite side of every category from me. No wonder you're so often wrong.
No, you just have a closed mind and cannot see the value we bring to this world. All types are necessary just as the turnings need nomads, civics etc the world needs these personality types too for balance.
Nah, I'm sticking with "You're wrong!". It's so much more succinct.
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(01-13-2017, 02:08 PM)taramarie Wrote: (01-13-2017, 02:06 PM)SomeGuy Wrote: (01-13-2017, 02:04 PM)taramarie Wrote: (01-13-2017, 02:01 PM)SomeGuy Wrote: Gah, INFJ, ISFP, you people are almost entirely on the opposite side of every category from me. No wonder you're so often wrong.
No, you just have a closed mind and cannot see the value we bring to this world. All types are necessary just as the turnings need nomads, civics etc the world needs these personality types too for balance.
Nah, I'm sticking with "You're wrong!". It's so much more succinct.
Thank you for showing your ignorance. Nothing to be proud of.
Speaking of ignorance, the use of emoticons is not simply an involuntary spasm on my part.
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(01-13-2017, 02:16 PM)taramarie Wrote: (01-13-2017, 02:13 PM)SomeGuy Wrote: (01-13-2017, 02:08 PM)taramarie Wrote: (01-13-2017, 02:06 PM)SomeGuy Wrote: (01-13-2017, 02:04 PM)taramarie Wrote: No, you just have a closed mind and cannot see the value we bring to this world. All types are necessary just as the turnings need nomads, civics etc the world needs these personality types too for balance.
Nah, I'm sticking with "You're wrong!". It's so much more succinct.
Thank you for showing your ignorance. Nothing to be proud of.
Speaking of ignorance, the use of emoticons is not simply an involuntary spasm on my part.
Ok so you are just a troll who likes to dig at people.....particularly feelers. Way too much time on your hands. Gotcha. Either way, swat meets fly till you show you are a mature individual.
Is "feelers" actually a category with which you identify? Do you have a support group you go to?
I much prefer actual debate, particularly on subjects which actually relate to T4T theory, but it's been a slow couple of days. While you're researching Myers-Briggs categories, ENTP might not be a bad one to look up. Particularly if you're thin-skinned.
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I appreciate the reach-out, but I am actually at work and don't generally consume video content anyways. Thanks, though.
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(01-13-2017, 01:53 PM)taramarie Wrote: (01-13-2017, 10:12 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: (01-13-2017, 07:51 AM)Odin Wrote: To me the problem is when people's nice, neat "logical", "rational" ideas start getting in the way of the lives of actual human beings. Libertarians and doctrinaire Marxist-Leninists are good examples of this. Architects, urban planners, and sociologists with grand plans of utopian social engineering also run into this problem, it's one of the reasons the GIs Great Society projects went off the rails.
Yep. I can agree with this. Damn these humans, always getting in the way of improving society.
This might also touch upon the iNtuitive / Sensor divide. Is one interested in the forest, or the trees?
It is not a divide for some types. I am an isfp. The dominant cognitive functions are Fi Se Ni Te. So I have extroverted sensing as well as introverted intuition following just behind it.
Your functions are very similar to mine, as an INFP. The only difference is that I have extroverted intuition followed by introverted sensation.
Some people think John Lennon was an INFP, others disagree. But this song makes me think of Fi Si:
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(01-13-2017, 02:03 PM)flbones too Wrote: have there been any research to prove the actuality of these myers briggs traits?
i've taken the tests few times and gotten a few different results. overall similar but just with slight vairations. generally they're istj or istp. it used to be intj but i don't get that anymore.
Your Myers-Briggs type can definitely shift. Mine has shifted in several ways over the years.
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(01-13-2017, 12:13 PM)SomeGuy Wrote: Isn't a forest a collective of trees?
It's a collection of trees, but not necessarily a collective.
An ant colony is a collective of insects, though. Some people like that model; some don't.
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(01-13-2017, 03:07 PM)X_4AD_84 Wrote: (01-13-2017, 01:37 PM)flbones too Wrote: (01-13-2017, 06:16 AM)Danilynn Wrote: Pulling up bootstraps:
Yeah, I understand this and do it daily.
I've worked 2 and 3 jobs at a time my whole life. I still work 2 jobs.
I haven't been able and none of my Xer friends either to go out together because all of us are working like this. See we are taking care of our parents AND our kids.
SO if we seem a bit bitchy, it's because we are tired. Some of us are tired and doing all this while fighting life altering medical stuff. Some of us are just dead inside from exhaustion. I'm tired. I'm exhausted. And I know I'll drop dead working.
get out of here with that crap. no one should have to work 2-3 jobs just to make a living. no one. wake up and stop defending a system that is rigged in favor of the rich. stop it.
Scots Irish (and non Scots Irish normed to that culture) are proud and stoic. There is a long history there and in many ways their distrust of "the system" is justified given how it failed them in both the UK and here.
Well, the ones in Appalachia are sure doing everything they can to themselves to see that they fail. It is beyond pathetic.
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01-13-2017, 08:44 PM
(This post was last modified: 01-13-2017, 08:58 PM by SomeGuy.)
(01-13-2017, 08:33 PM)Warren Dew Wrote: (01-13-2017, 12:13 PM)SomeGuy Wrote: Isn't a forest a collective of trees?
It's a collection of trees, but not necessarily a collective.
An ant colony is a collective of insects, though. Some people like that model; some don't.
Thanks, but it was kind of rhetorical. I realize that forest is not actually the collective noun for tree, or necessarily a collective of any sort.
Unless it's an aspen forest or something, in which the trees are clones and they share a common root system. A disturbingly un-American tree, those aspens...
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01-13-2017, 08:46 PM
(This post was last modified: 01-13-2017, 08:59 PM by Eric the Green.)
(01-13-2017, 06:06 AM)gabrielle Wrote: (01-10-2017, 04:47 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: Some Xers have a very limited view of music, because they are too confined to their own time, which lacks inspiration. Do not wish to argue that point.
Because on a deeper level, you know that's not really true? Geez, you should realize that by now after everything I and others have shown you on the music threads. I know you liked some of it.
It's very true. Nothing can match the Awakening in this saeculum, and in many other saeculums too. Awakenings are times of inspiraction, naturally. Unravellings are times of indulgence and culture war, and are very complacent times at their worst. At their best, further development of the Awakening takes place. I place that aspect mostly in the new age movement and electronic music. There's a wealth of good stuff in that realm. In mainstream and "alternative" realms, not so much.
You know by now that I still think a lot of 3T music in uninspired, including virtually entire genres, which I won't mention again this time. And you knew I wouldn't think so about that. Of course, there's exceptions that I like too, and I say so. And I have more to learn about the period. But from what I've heard, the level of inspiration is overall low compared to the Awakening, when there was so much spirituality and discovery in the air, and real positive approaches to life instead of the cynicism that dominated every aspect of society during the 3T, and to a large extent still today. And it went along with the political and economic outlook of the 3T too, and today; and the domination of mainstream media by a few corporations interested only in marketing, complemented by an alternative culture centered on cynical and destructive attitudes. Nowadays the internet has given more upbeat music from the younger people a chance to gain some traction. And I think that's the intrinsic nature of the difference between second and third turnings; nothing new in that respect. But when it comes to intentional ugliness, this 3T outdid all the others in some of what was offered.
Quote:It is certainly true that if someone limits their appreciation of music to the pop/rock songs of their youth they are missing out on a great deal that would educate and enhance their sensibilities and improve their experience of life. This would be true of Boomers and their 2T youth as much as any one else.
Yes indeed. It perfectly obvious that the value of music and other aspects of culture has nothing to do with anyone's age. It is intrinsic to the cultural expression itself. It also reflects the times in which its created.
Quote:I know that some Gen Xers on here have negative views of the Awakening. A rather Puritanical condemnation of what they perceive as excesses of the era. People like to blame their elders when they're unhappy with their world. Ironic that certain people who tout individualism and self sufficiency and pulling up the bootstraps seem to do the most whining about this.
Now, what was this thread all about, now that we were predictably distracted by my views on culture that I don't want to argue about?
Ah, I was responding to Mr. X 84 who suggested that his experience of the Awakening was affected or limited by his age at the time. I am just pointing out that no-one is limited by that. We all have access to the Awakening, and to all the other Awakenings in history too. It's no accident they are called that. It means we are more inspired, and in many ways more creative, at those times, and wisdom flows down into our minds and hearts from higher realms; visions that should guide us through the other turnings. That can only happen if we are willing to experience what is made available to us from these times.
In a real sense, culture IS what is discovered during Awakenings. Those times are when our spirituality and religion as well as our arts are brought into being. Where there is no vision, the people perish. America decided to go in the perish direction in our 3T by throwing out all that had been learned in the 2T, using the excuse that people indeed made mistakes then, as always happens in free-wheeling and creative times; and retreating instead into narrow individualism and cynicism, culturally, politically, economically. Obama tried in his way to help us relearn some of the vision. We failed the class again on Nov.8, 2016, and in the previous 3 elections as well. And we have certainly failed on the cultural level, as we remain hooked on materialism, and place all our faith in either science or traditional religion--- which are exactly what the Awakening awakened us FROM.
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(01-13-2017, 10:12 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: (01-13-2017, 07:51 AM)Odin Wrote: To me the problem is when people's nice, neat "logical", "rational" ideas start getting in the way of the lives of actual human beings. Libertarians and doctrinaire Marxist-Leninists are good examples of this. Architects, urban planners, and sociologists with grand plans of utopian social engineering also run into this problem, it's one of the reasons the GIs Great Society projects went off the rails.
Yep. I can agree with this. Damn these humans, always getting in the way of improving society.
This might also touch upon the iNtuitive / Sensor divide. Is one interested in the forest, or the trees?
Well, improving society really isn't the problem. The problem is when you get one person or a group or people who think they know "The Way" to Utopia and try to impose it on everyone else without caring what people actually want. The whole "New Left" idea of Participatory Democracy came from the backlash to that.
#MakeTheDemocratsGreatAgain
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