Presidential election, 2016

[SomeGuy]

Quote:I don't know of many farmers (Republican voters) who still rely on people (manual labor) to harvest their crops (wheat, corn, soybeans, potatoes, so on).

It's more of a thing with fruit/vegetable crops than it is staples.  Strawberries in particular still use a lot of stoop labor.

[David Horn]

(01-16-2017, 12:37 PM)SomeGuy Wrote:

(01-16-2017, 12:31 PM)David Horn Wrote:

(01-15-2017, 10:41 PM)SomeGuy Wrote: ...  You just reread American Nations or something?

Not all knowledge comes from the printed page.  Since Odin is a Minnesotan and, as you should surmise, also of Scandinavian extraction, he has first hand knowledge.  He even eats lutefisk, I'm told.

He has referenced Woodard by name multiple times in this and other threads.  I don't think that comes from his "Scandinavian extraction".

Why are you responding to this, again?

Odin and I have had this conversation in the past.  My upbringing was similar, albeit not in the upper Midwest. At Christmas, we still had young teenage girls running around with candles in their hair.

[Warren Dew]

(01-16-2017, 12:27 PM)David Horn Wrote:

(01-15-2017, 04:45 PM)Warren Dew Wrote:

(01-15-2017, 02:34 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: Does anyone want Soviet-style internal passports? That is what it would take to fully thwart illegal residence.

We pretty much already have that with the requirement to have a driver's license to drive.  That said, the primary objective I've seen is to thwart illegal employment and crime and use of welfare by illegals, which go beyond mere presence.

Has anyone asked to see your papers ... ever? 

Yes.  You've never been stopped by a policeman who asked to see your license and registration?

Quote:

Warren Dew Wrote:

(01-15-2017, 03:19 PM)SomeGuy Wrote: E-verify would no more be a sign of incipient fascism/Stalinism/general "bad"-ism as is the fact that I have to show a valid ID to check into a motel.

Indeed.  Given we already have a requirement to provide a valid social security number, E-verify really doesn't add to the government intrusion we already have.

I don't see anything inherently bad about this, but it could be used for bad if the PTB wanted to use it that way.  Intent is still more important than the act itself.

PTB?

[Warren Dew]

(01-16-2017, 12:16 PM)David Horn Wrote:

(01-15-2017, 01:06 PM)SomeGuy Wrote:

(01-15-2017, 11:16 AM)David Horn Wrote: I'm going with "useful tool", but it may prove a very different tool than the proponents expect.  If e-verify stands between our fresh food and immigration policy, I'm betting on food.

I dunno, Donald Trump and Jeff Sessions don't much seem like foodies to me.  You might be mistaken.  But thanks for confirming (once again) some of my long-held beliefs about yuppie liberals and their political positions.

REAL 'Murican: "We need to do somethin' about this ILLEGAL immigration!  They's breaking our laws!"
Yuppie Liberal: "Oh no, you can't crack down on that, that's racist!  Think of the poor strawberries!"  

My money is on the farmers, who are overwhelmingly Republican these days.  Can't get the <insert fruit or vegetable> picked?  Scream about lack of access to farm labor. 
... and it doesn't have to be arugula or quinoa.  Lettuce will do.

The farmers in question - produce, not grain - have already lost.  They are going to be killed by the new California minimum wage law.

[SomeGuy]

Dave,

Quote:Odin and I have had this conversation in the past.  My upbringing was similar, albeit not in the upper Midwest. At Christmas, we still had young teenage girls running around with candles in their hair.

How is this relevant?  I am not asking him about his comments on Scandinavian-American culture, but his specific, repeated references to Woodard in this and other threads.

[SomeGuy]

Warren,

PTB = Powers that be

[David Horn]

(01-16-2017, 12:49 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(01-16-2017, 12:16 PM)David Horn Wrote:

(01-15-2017, 01:06 PM)SomeGuy Wrote:

(01-15-2017, 11:16 AM)David Horn Wrote: I'm going with "useful tool", but it may prove a very different tool than the proponents expect.  If e-verify stands between our fresh food and immigration policy, I'm betting on food.

I dunno, Donald Trump and Jeff Sessions don't much seem like foodies to me.  You might be mistaken.  But thanks for confirming (once again) some of my long-held beliefs about yuppie liberals and their political positions.

REAL 'Murican: "We need to do somethin' about this ILLEGAL immigration!  They's breaking our laws!"
Yuppie Liberal: "Oh no, you can't crack down on that, that's racist!  Think of the poor strawberries!"  

My money is on the farmers, who are overwhelmingly Republican these days.  Can't get the <insert fruit or vegetable> picked?  Scream about lack of access to farm labor. 
... and it doesn't have to be arugula or quinoa.  Lettuce will do.

I don't know of many farmers (Republican voters) who still rely on people (manual labor) to harvest their crops (wheat, corn, soybeans, potatoes, so on).

That may be true for row crops.  Most fruits and truck vegetables still need attending.

[David Horn]

(01-16-2017, 03:21 PM)SomeGuy Wrote: Dave,

Quote:Odin and I have had this conversation in the past.  My upbringing was similar, albeit not in the upper Midwest. At Christmas, we still had young teenage girls running around with candles in their hair.

How is this relevant?  I am not asking him about his comments on Scandinavian-American culture, but his specific, repeated references to Woodard in this and other threads.

You are SO literal!  Chill!

[Warren Dew]

(01-16-2017, 03:22 PM)SomeGuy Wrote: Warren,

PTB = Powers that be

Thanks.

In that case, I agree with David that the data the government collects has immense potential for abuse, but that's already true.  I still don't see E-verify as changing the present situation much.

[Eric the Green]

(01-16-2017, 08:55 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(01-16-2017, 07:38 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: Immigration today just seems an excuse by Trump, Sessions and other such demagogues to use in order to get votes through creating fear. It has no real bearing on the fortunes of our country or the people.

That's not all of it.  Lots of illegals will provide low wage labor with no requirements for benefits.  A lot of legals are understandably resentful that the illegals are taking jobs that would otherwise be available.  A lot of employers don't want their cheap labor to go away.  I agree that some politicians are using hate to get votes, but the fortunes of lots of people are on the line.

That's true.

[David Horn]

(01-16-2017, 03:16 PM)Warren Dew Wrote:

(01-16-2017, 12:16 PM)David Horn Wrote: My money is on the farmers, who are overwhelmingly Republican these days.  Can't get the <insert fruit or vegetable> picked?  Scream about lack of access to farm labor. 
... and it doesn't have to be arugula or quinoa.  Lettuce will do.

The farmers in question - produce, not grain - have already lost.  They are going to be killed by the new California minimum wage law.

We'll see.  Similar predictions have proven hollow in other industries.  Of course the owners want to pay less, but that doesn't make it allowing it mandatory.

[SomeGuy]

(01-16-2017, 04:10 PM)David Horn Wrote:

(01-16-2017, 03:21 PM)SomeGuy Wrote: Dave,

Quote:Odin and I have had this conversation in the past.  My upbringing was similar, albeit not in the upper Midwest. At Christmas, we still had young teenage girls running around with candles in their hair.

How is this relevant?  I am not asking him about his comments on Scandinavian-American culture, but his specific, repeated references to Woodard in this and other threads.

You are SO literal!  Chill!

I wasn't even talking to you about this!  Chill yourself! 

[Ragnarök_62]

(01-16-2017, 04:09 PM)David Horn Wrote:

(01-16-2017, 12:49 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(01-16-2017, 12:16 PM)David Horn Wrote:

(01-15-2017, 01:06 PM)SomeGuy Wrote:

(01-15-2017, 11:16 AM)David Horn Wrote: I'm going with "useful tool", but it may prove a very different tool than the proponents expect.  If e-verify stands between our fresh food and immigration policy, I'm betting on food.

I dunno, Donald Trump and Jeff Sessions don't much seem like foodies to me.  You might be mistaken.  But thanks for confirming (once again) some of my long-held beliefs about yuppie liberals and their political positions.

REAL 'Murican: "We need to do somethin' about this ILLEGAL immigration!  They's breaking our laws!"
Yuppie Liberal: "Oh no, you can't crack down on that, that's racist!  Think of the poor strawberries!"  

My money is on the farmers, who are overwhelmingly Republican these days.  Can't get the <insert fruit or vegetable> picked?  Scream about lack of access to farm labor. 
... and it doesn't have to be arugula or quinoa.  Lettuce will do.

I don't know of many farmers (Republican voters) who still rely on people (manual labor) to harvest their crops (wheat, corn, soybeans, potatoes, so on).

That may be true for row crops.  Most fruits and truck vegetables still need attending.

Uh, not anymore!

https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/F...8.html?s=p
http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2013/07...t-farming/
http://strawberryplants.org/2010/10/stra...ing-robot/

There's now no excuse for not using E-verify.  

[SomeGuy]

Right?  That's clearly a Chinese machine.  I want to see its papers first. 

[Bob Butler 54]

I'm watching PBS's Frontline Episode, The Divided States of America.  It seems a good review of Obama's time, how his early attempts at unity came to naught, but instead fueled the revolt of the Republican base and extreme partisanship.  It's a decent review of how we got where we are.

[Odin]

(01-16-2017, 08:55 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(01-16-2017, 07:38 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: Immigration today just seems an excuse by Trump, Sessions and other such demagogues to use in order to get votes through creating fear. It has no real bearing on the fortunes of our country or the people.

That's not all of it.  Lots of illegals will provide low wage labor with no requirements for benefits.  A lot of legals are understandably resentful that the illegals are taking jobs that would otherwise be available.  A lot of employers don't want their cheap labor to go away.  I agree that some politicians are using hate to get votes, but the fortunes of lots of people are on the line.

A big problem is that no US citizen or resident alien trying to become a citizen is going to be a fruit or veggie picker for a wage low enough for the market to bear. Hell, a lot of people wouldn't do the job period, because it sucks. We could expand the number of migrant workers allowed in, but the Right doesn't like that. A few years ago there was a big crackdown on illegal immigrants in (IIRC) Alabama and it lead to crops rotting in the fields.

[Odin]

(01-16-2017, 12:31 PM)David Horn Wrote:

(01-15-2017, 10:41 PM)SomeGuy Wrote: ...  You just reread American Nations or something?

Not all knowledge comes from the printed page.  Since Odin is a Minnesotan and, as you should surmise, also of Scandinavian extraction, he has first hand knowledge.  He even eats lutefisk, I'm told.

It's what I was taught in Minnesota History in school. The Scandinavians and New Englanders generally got along well, but those groups tended to annoy the Germans, especially the German Catholics.

[SomeGuy]

(01-18-2017, 08:30 AM)Odin Wrote:

(01-16-2017, 08:55 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(01-16-2017, 07:38 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: Immigration today just seems an excuse by Trump, Sessions and other such demagogues to use in order to get votes through creating fear. It has no real bearing on the fortunes of our country or the people.

That's not all of it.  Lots of illegals will provide low wage labor with no requirements for benefits.  A lot of legals are understandably resentful that the illegals are taking jobs that would otherwise be available.  A lot of employers don't want their cheap labor to go away.  I agree that some politicians are using hate to get votes, but the fortunes of lots of people are on the line.

A big problem is that no US citizen or resident alien trying to become a citizen is going to be a fruit or veggie picker for a wage low enough for the market to bear. Hell, a lot of people wouldn't do the job period, because it sucks. We could expand the number of migrant workers allowed in, but the Right doesn't like that. A few years ago there was a big crackdown on illegal immigrants in (IIRC) Alabama and it lead to crops rotting in the fields.

Exactly, Odin, think of the poor strawberries!

[Anthony '58]

The strawberries will do just fine: Convicts from nearby prisons will pick them.

[SomeGuy]

(01-18-2017, 11:36 AM)Anthony Wrote: The strawberries will do just fine: Convicts from nearby prisons will pick them.

Problem solved: Lock them up!