The Maelstrom of Violence

[Bob Butler 54]

(01-15-2021, 03:55 PM)mamabug Wrote: If a congresscritter has a specific concern, they should raise it to the FBI and not post it on Facebook. 

Nitpick. To the House or Senate sergeant at arms, and let him take it from there. But if the concern has real bite, perhaps to the press as well. Much has yet to be learned about the insurrection, and the people ought to know. Trump should not be the only one using social media to shape public opinion.

[pbrower2a]

(01-15-2021, 03:55 PM)mamabug Wrote:

(01-14-2021, 08:07 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: We will need to know more about this insurrection. Were insiders in the federal government, including elected officials, complicit or neglectful? We may not know fully until investigations or trials are complete. Anybody who had any role in this insurrection that isn't innocent error must be removed from the responsibility and receive such sanctions as appropriate. For a breach of security not an innocent error any Senator or Representative must be expelled; any staffer must be fired and blackballed; any Capitol Police officer or any employee of the House or Senate must be fired. This insurrection is pure disgrace. I have yet to be satisfied that insiders were involved. Lives of fellow Senators and Representatives as well as the dignity of Congress were put at risk.    

I agree here, as I think would many on the center-right.  My issue is with throwing unsupported claims against a 'them' like chum into the fetid cesspit that is social media.  If a congresscritter has a specific concern, they should raise it to the FBI and not post it on Facebook.  That even as friendly a publication as the NY Times pointed out (weakly) that the claim had zero proof behind it should be a red flag as to just how irresponsible it is in the current state of tensions and distrust.

It is best that we discuss this from a center-right angle. I do use Facebook, but I am not making any speculations that have not been released into general knowledge (such as the AP wires). I have no desire to tip anyone off, and if I did as the result of knowledge of criminal acts it would be to the appropriate agency of law enforcement.  

Quote:My skepticism over the assertion it was an inside job is still pretty high and it would take a lot of actual facts to clear it.  Occam's razor, at this point, suggests it was a planned attempt by a hard-core group of Trump supporters who used the madness of crowds and lack of proper preparedness by the DC Mayor as cover WITHOUT active collusion and facilitation of elected officials and/or staffers.  It's basically the Seattle CHAZ fiasco in a much more serious context.

I'm making no specific allegations. It is hard to imagine any member of Congress risking a trip from renown to the infamy of prison. People did have armor, and people literally burglarized the Capitol. 

The best security isn't an armed camp; it is instead that nobody would even imagine doing anything of the sort. I figure that Capitol police were not prepared for armed people and paramilitary tactics. One crazy person? Sure.  

Quote:But, I could be wrong, and I'm sure the lovey surveillance state we live in will soon reveal the truth.

America has trended toward a police state since at least September 11, 2001.

[David Horn]

(01-14-2021, 06:32 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(01-14-2021, 03:34 PM)David Horn Wrote:

(01-14-2021, 03:14 PM)mamabug Wrote: From my perspective, this is starting to get very scary.  My stance on Jan 6th is the same as it was last week, and the weeks before that - violent groups exist on the fringes of both sides.   Everyone is very good at looking at their side and saying 'well, that group doesn't really represent 95% of my side, they are just a distraction the other team uses.'  I hear that from people justifying rioters burning down billions in property and killing over 30 people and I hear that from people justifying Charlottesville and the Capitol breach alike.  When push comes to shove, they both usually start blaming 'provocateurs' and muttering about false flags.

The similarity of how groups think would be scary if it wasn't utterly predictable form a sociological behavior standpoint.

Anyway, the thing I have a very hard time believing is that elected government officials, especially at the national level, would go beyond the usual excuses and 'what-about-a-lism' to actively assisting and engaging in planning a violent assault *on themselves*.

That this is even part of the national conversation, especially without names or any proof furnished as part of the accusation, is the beginning of a dangerous path.  Despite pretty much every national level Republican or Republican sympathizer in politics, media, and/or alternative media condemning the events of Jan 6th, the narrative being shaped is that not only were the perpetrators on the right, but all Republicans are evil people who either tacitly or actively support this.  

Either the people making the accusation are irresponsible, they are so far into their bubble they legitimately are unable to see their colleagues as human, or they are making a cynical ploy to justify exclusion or outright removal of any Republican who stands in their way.  I've read enough on this board to know some of you would be perfectly happy with that because you are also so far into your in-group and the crisis mindset that you have no problem with stomping all over half the country.  From where I stand, this is what totalitarianism looks like.

There better be either a complete and public exoneration (including a censure of Rep. Sherrill for circulating this rumor in the first place) or a hell of a lot of proof for me to not see this as Democratic politicians acting in bad faith for the purposes of hurting people they disagree with.

Forgive my impassioned ranting, I've said all along it wasn't the events that alarmed me so much as the response and this is exactly what I mean.  I never thought I would live in an America where one major party didn't just impugn the other but sought to convict them as traitors.  How this doesn't end in bloodshed and terror is becoming increasingly something I can't see.

Nonsense.  So far a first term Rep from Colorado is actively under investigation for posting the locations of leadership and senior staff in the middle of the assault.  The FBI has her phone records.  She also is one of the ones who refuse to use the screening process to enter the building and she refuses to be searched as well. She ran on the platform of guns ... period, and argues that she has a right to take one on the floor of Congress. If she's actually doing it, that's grounds for expulsion.  As to Mikie Sherril, she merely reported what others reported to her, and security has acknowledged that "tours" were conducted on the 5th -- more to follow.

That's hell-and-gone from slander.  Considering the recent events, it's within the bounds of duty.

Nonsense? You were pretty quick to call it nonsense. So there is an authoritarian/Reactive side to you after all. Do you usually respond to a decent poster with nonsense? You are in charge now. The Democrats are in charge now too. OK, its time to see how good of a manager/moderator you are, and its time to see how good of national leaders that the Democrats are too at the same time. So far, I'd give them an F.

Disinformation is nonsense, regardless of the source.  mamabug was parroting "information" that was already validated as false by many sources.  More to the point, there are several issues that are remaining classified for reasons not disclosed.  At least some of that is safety related.

I'm betting on a lot worse rather than the opposite.  So far, that's only my opinion.

[David Horn]

(01-15-2021, 03:55 PM)mamabug Wrote:

(01-14-2021, 08:07 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: We will need to know more about this insurrection. Were insiders in the federal government, including elected officials, complicit or neglectful? We may not know fully until investigations or trials are complete. Anybody who had any role in this insurrection that isn't innocent error must be removed from the responsibility and receive such sanctions as appropriate. For a breach of security not an innocent any Senator or Representative must be expelled; any staffer must be fired and blackballed; any Capitol Police officer or any employee of the House or Senate must be fired. This insurrection is pure disgrace. I have yet to be satisfied that insiders were involved. Lives of fellow Senators and Representatives as well as the dignity of Congress were put at risk.    

I agree here, as I think would many on the center-right.  My issue is with throwing unsupported claims against a 'them' like chum into the fetid cesspit that is social media.  If a congresscritter has a specific concern, they should raise it to the FBI and not post it on Facebook.  That even as friendly a publication as the NY Times pointed out (weakly) that the claim had zero proof behind it should be a red flag as to just how irresponsible it is in the current state of tensions and distrust.

This is a bit rich considering the source of 99% of the disinformation out there.  FB was a RW cesspool, far more than one used by the left, and it still continues to a great extent.  It's been well documented that FB algorithms reward extremism, and the "influencers" on the right were often driven to the extremes just to get Likes and Reposts.

mamabug Wrote:My skepticism over the assertion it was an inside job is still pretty high and it would take a lot of actual facts to clear it.  Occam's razor, at this point, suggests it was a planned attempt by a hard-core group of Trump supporters who used the madness of crowds and lack of proper preparedness by the DC Mayor as cover WITHOUT active collusion and facilitation of elected officials and/or staffers.  It's basically the Seattle CHAZ fiasco in a much more serious context.

But, I could be wrong, and I'm sure the lovey surveillance state we live in will soon reveal the truth.

I agree that this was planned and executed by professionals of one sort, or perhaps, many.  Transparency, on the other hand, is not all that great.  Actually, if this was the UK,, I would agree, but it's not.  We aren't bathed in video cameras like London (~25,000 the last time I was there).  For al;l the whining about loss of freedom, we maintain a lot of privacy here -- possibly to our detriment in this case.  Still, privacy is extremely important, and should be violated only under extreme circumstances.

[pbrower2a]

A view from afar:

[mamabug]

(01-15-2021, 06:46 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: It is best that we discuss this from a center-right angle. I do use Facebook, but I am not making any speculations that have not been released into general knowledge (such as the AP wires). I have no desire to tip anyone off, and if I did as the result of knowledge of criminal acts it would be to the appropriate agency of law enforcement.  

I'm making no specific allegations. It is hard to imagine any member of Congress risking a trip from renown to the infamy of prison. People did have armor, and people literally burglarized the Capitol. 

The best security isn't an armed camp; it is instead that nobody would even imagine doing anything of the sort. I figure that Capitol police were not prepared for armed people and paramilitary tactics. One crazy person? Sure.  

I apologize if you thought I was making an accusation towards you.  My comments were strictly aimed at the congresswoman who posted on FB implying unnamed Republican colleagues helped facilitate the attack without providing proof.  I can't see a reason for doing something like that where the answer isn't 'she's stupid AF and irresponsible' or 'she's cynically trying to foment distrust to further political advantage.'  The story itself does not seem to be making the rounds to the point where people on the right are screaming about it, so I think some wiser heads have prevailed and are burying it.

But, rest assured, I am not accusing you of anything.  I was responding to the events you posted about, not to anything you've done or said.

Quote:America has trended toward a police state since at least September 11, 2001.

Yep, yep, and yep.

[mamabug]

(01-16-2021, 10:09 AM)David Horn Wrote: Disinformation is nonsense, regardless of the source.  mamabug was parroting "information" that was already validated as false by many sources.  More to the point, there are several issues that are remaining classified for reasons not disclosed.  At least some of that is safety related.

I'm betting on a lot worse rather than the opposite.  So far, that's only my opinion.

Can you please let me know what information I was "parroting" that had been disproven.  My comment was aimed purely at the article posted right before mine that I felt contained a number of alarming elements in the context of whether we are moving further into or away from a 'crisis mindset.  Unnamed rumors without proof thrown out at the public seem, in my opinion, to be something heading even further into an 'us vs. them' mentality.

If the article has since been retracted or clarified, I'd appreciate a link.

[mamabug]

(01-16-2021, 10:28 AM)David Horn Wrote: This is a bit rich considering the source of 99% of the disinformation out there.  FB was a RW cesspool, far more than one used by the left, and it still continues to a great extent.  It's been well documented that FB algorithms reward extremism, and the "influencers" on the right were often driven to the extremes just to get Likes and Reposts.

I thought two wrongs didn't make a right?  All social media touching on politics is a cesspool.  It also gives a distorted view of reality given that less than 2% of people are active in anything beyond posting pics of their kids, pets, and vacations.  I also hold it responsible for the devolution of journalism as it promotes a 'click bait' approach to headlines and ratings as well as increases the feeling of urgency to get something out without vetting.  It's been a long time since serious, reflective, investigative journalism was really rewarded.  

Quote:

mamabug Wrote:But, I could be wrong, and I'm sure the lovey surveillance state we live in will soon reveal the truth.

I agree that this was planned and executed by professionals of one sort, or perhaps, many.  Transparency, on the other hand, is not all that great.  Actually, if this was the UK,, I would agree, but it's not.  We aren't bathed in video cameras like London (~25,000 the last time I was there).  For al;l the whining about loss of freedom, we maintain a lot of privacy here -- possibly to our detriment in this case.  Still, privacy is extremely important, and should be violated only under extreme circumstances.

Technologically, they have the ability to grab info about every cell phone that may have hit the congressional wi-fi or pinged off nearby towers.  4th amendment rights are the only thing preventing them from doing a pull of the data and tracking people down that way - but I wouldn't place any bets on that.  Libertarians have known since Snowden that law enforcement pulls the data first to build their suspect pool then finds ways to circumvent 'fruit of the poisonous tree' by building a case around them as if it came from other sources.   I'd be very surprised if the FBI didn't already have a list in their hands that, legally, they are not allowed to have but which we will never know about.

[Classic-Xer]

(01-16-2021, 05:17 PM)mamabug Wrote:

(01-16-2021, 10:28 AM)David Horn Wrote: This is a bit rich considering the source of 99% of the disinformation out there.  FB was a RW cesspool, far more than one used by the left, and it still continues to a great extent.  It's been well documented that FB algorithms reward extremism, and the "influencers" on the right were often driven to the extremes just to get Likes and Reposts.

I thought two wrongs didn't make a right?  All social media touching on politics is a cesspool.  It also gives a distorted view of reality given that less than 2% of people are active in anything beyond posting pics of their kids, pets, and vacations.  I also hold it responsible for the devolution of journalism as it promotes a 'click bait' approach to headlines and ratings as well as increases the feeling of urgency to get something out without vetting.  It's been a long time since serious, reflective, investigative journalism was really rewarded.  

Quote:

mamabug Wrote:But, I could be wrong, and I'm sure the lovey surveillance state we live in will soon reveal the truth.

I agree that this was planned and executed by professionals of one sort, or perhaps, many.  Transparency, on the other hand, is not all that great.  Actually, if this was the UK,, I would agree, but it's not.  We aren't bathed in video cameras like London (~25,000 the last time I was there).  For al;l the whining about loss of freedom, we maintain a lot of privacy here -- possibly to our detriment in this case.  Still, privacy is extremely important, and should be violated only under extreme circumstances.

Technologically, they have the ability to grab info about every cell phone that may have hit the congressional wi-fi or pinged off nearby towers.  4th amendment rights are the only thing preventing them from doing a pull of the data and tracking people down that way - but I wouldn't place any bets on that.  Libertarians have known since Snowden that law enforcement pulls the data first to build their suspect pool then finds ways to circumvent 'fruit of the poisonous tree' by building a case around them as if it came from other sources.   I'd be very surprised if the FBI didn't already have a list in their hands that, legally, they are not allowed to have but which we will never know about.

Maybe that's the reason why the Democrats and a few Republican allies are in such a big hurry to fully impeach Trump without due process and his right to run for President again in 2024. I mean, if it was already planned in advance without Trumps knowledge, Trump would be off the hook for inciting it. The Democrats have not been playing by the rules for quite a while now as a portion of the GOP hasn't done much/said much about it. From what I've learned over many years, the Left doesn't play fair or play nice either. So, there's is going to have to be a major shift taken by the American Right. It's pretty clear to me, the politicians and beltway folks aren't ready for what's coming and will find themselves having to choose sides. I hope they're smart.

[pbrower2a]

(01-14-2021, 06:32 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(01-14-2021, 03:34 PM)David Horn Wrote:

(01-14-2021, 03:14 PM)mamabug Wrote: From my perspective, this is starting to get very scary.  My stance on Jan 6th is the same as it was last week, and the weeks before that - violent groups exist on the fringes of both sides.   Everyone is very good at looking at their side and saying 'well, that group doesn't really represent 95% of my side, they are just a distraction the other team uses.'  I hear that from people justifying rioters burning down billions in property and killing over 30 people and I hear that from people justifying Charlottesville and the Capitol breach alike.  When push comes to shove, they both usually start blaming 'provocateurs' and muttering about false flags.

The similarity of how groups think would be scary if it wasn't utterly predictable form a sociological behavior standpoint.

Anyway, the thing I have a very hard time believing is that elected government officials, especially at the national level, would go beyond the usual excuses and 'what-about-a-lism' to actively assisting and engaging in planning a violent assault *on themselves*.

That this is even part of the national conversation, especially without names or any proof furnished as part of the accusation, is the beginning of a dangerous path.  Despite pretty much every national level Republican or Republican sympathizer in politics, media, and/or alternative media condemning the events of Jan 6th, the narrative being shaped is that not only were the perpetrators on the right, but all Republicans are evil people who either tacitly or actively support this.  

Either the people making the accusation are irresponsible, they are so far into their bubble they legitimately are unable to see their colleagues as human, or they are making a cynical ploy to justify exclusion or outright removal of any Republican who stands in their way.  I've read enough on this board to know some of you would be perfectly happy with that because you are also so far into your in-group and the crisis mindset that you have no problem with stomping all over half the country.  From where I stand, this is what totalitarianism looks like.

There better be either a complete and public exoneration (including a censure of Rep. Sherrill for circulating this rumor in the first place) or a hell of a lot of proof for me to not see this as Democratic politicians acting in bad faith for the purposes of hurting people they disagree with.

Forgive my impassioned ranting, I've said all along it wasn't the events that alarmed me so much as the response and this is exactly what I mean.  I never thought I would live in an America where one major party didn't just impugn the other but sought to convict them as traitors.  How this doesn't end in bloodshed and terror is becoming increasingly something I can't see.

Nonsense.  So far a first term Rep from Colorado is actively under investigation for posting the locations of leadership and senior staff in the middle of the assault.  The FBI has her phone records.  She also is one of the ones who refuse to use the screening process to enter the building and she refuses to be searched as well. She ran on the platform of guns ... period, and argues that she has a right to take one on the floor of Congress. If she's actually doing it, that's grounds for expulsion.  As to Mikie Sherril, she merely reported what others reported to her, and security has acknowledged that "tours" were conducted on the 5th -- more to follow.

That's hell-and-gone from slander.  Considering the recent events, it's within the bounds of duty.

Nonsense? You were pretty quick to call it nonsense. So there is an authoritarian/Reactive side to you after all. Do you usually respond to a decent poster with nonsense? You are in charge now. The Democrats are in charge now too. OK, its time to see how good of a manager/moderator you are, and its time to see how good of national leaders that the Democrats are too at the same time. So far, I'd give them an F.

The FBI leaks data to the general public as it sees fit on criminal investigations. Phone calls between a member of Congress and someone arrested or under investigation for the insurrection might not be damning in itself but they would be interesting. If people given tours were at the insurrection, that would be interesting. Usually those tours are given to large groups from a Representative's district, so should Fred Upton (R-MI 06) give a tour of the capitol building to the team from Three Rivers that participates in the Little League World Series, that would be innocent.  Little-Leaguers are not looking for vulnerabilities in the Capitol building. The techniques used in taking over the Capitol look highly sophisticated -- the sorts that Special Forces would use against some other country's Parliament if so ordered. Nobody expected those techniques to be used against our Congress.

The FBI seeks cooperation from the general public and may get it. The less sympathy that people have for the insurrectionists, the more cooperation the FBI and other law enforcement will get. We will find out soon enough who, if any, did any security breaches. Soon enough is an indictment. 

Putting fellow Members of Congress or their staffers, or any House or Senate employees in danger should result in expulsion. At this point I can say nothing definitive. That is for any criminal trial or confession in an open session of a court of law.     

...apparently I was not hyperbolic in comparing the attempted seizure of the Capitol (Three Hours That Disgusted the World) to the storming of the Winter Palace in 1917.

[pbrower2a]

(01-17-2021, 12:10 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(01-16-2021, 05:17 PM)mamabug Wrote:

(01-16-2021, 10:28 AM)David Horn Wrote: This is a bit rich considering the source of 99% of the disinformation out there.  FB was a RW cesspool, far more than one used by the left, and it still continues to a great extent.  It's been well documented that FB algorithms reward extremism, and the "influencers" on the right were often driven to the extremes just to get Likes and Reposts.

I thought two wrongs didn't make a right?  All social media touching on politics is a cesspool.  It also gives a distorted view of reality given that less than 2% of people are active in anything beyond posting pics of their kids, pets, and vacations.  I also hold it responsible for the devolution of journalism as it promotes a 'click bait' approach to headlines and ratings as well as increases the feeling of urgency to get something out without vetting.  It's been a long time since serious, reflective, investigative journalism was really rewarded.  

Quote:

mamabug Wrote:But, I could be wrong, and I'm sure the lovey surveillance state we live in will soon reveal the truth.

I agree that this was planned and executed by professionals of one sort, or perhaps, many.  Transparency, on the other hand, is not all that great.  Actually, if this was the UK,, I would agree, but it's not.  We aren't bathed in video cameras like London (~25,000 the last time I was there).  For al;l the whining about loss of freedom, we maintain a lot of privacy here -- possibly to our detriment in this case.  Still, privacy is extremely important, and should be violated only under extreme circumstances.

Technologically, they have the ability to grab info about every cell phone that may have hit the congressional wi-fi or pinged off nearby towers.  4th amendment rights are the only thing preventing them from doing a pull of the data and tracking people down that way - but I wouldn't place any bets on that.  Libertarians have known since Snowden that law enforcement pulls the data first to build their suspect pool then finds ways to circumvent 'fruit of the poisonous tree' by building a case around them as if it came from other sources.   I'd be very surprised if the FBI didn't already have a list in their hands that, legally, they are not allowed to have but which we will never know about.

Maybe that's the reason why the Democrats and a few Republican allies are in such a big hurry to fully impeach Trump without due process and his right to run for President again in 2024. I mean, if it was already planned in advance without Trumps knowledge, Trump would be off the hook for inciting it. The Democrats have not been playing by the rules for quite a while now as a portion of the GOP hasn't done much/said much about it. From what I've learned over many years, the Left doesn't play fair or play nice either. So, there's is going to have to be a major shift taken by the American Right. It's pretty clear to me, the politicians and beltway folks aren't ready for what's coming and will find themselves having to choose sides. I hope they're smart.

Negligence, Classic X'er... it's negligence. President Trump gave a mealy-mouthed call for the insurrection to stop, but he still told the lie to his backers that they had been cheated. The criteria under which the 2020 Presidential election was a cheat has inadequate  evidence behind it. We have rules for deciding who wins elections, and those entail official counts by people with responsibility only for the integrity of the process.

[Classic-Xer]

(01-17-2021, 01:27 AM)pbrower2a Wrote:

(01-17-2021, 12:10 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(01-16-2021, 05:17 PM)mamabug Wrote:

(01-16-2021, 10:28 AM)David Horn Wrote: This is a bit rich considering the source of 99% of the disinformation out there.  FB was a RW cesspool, far more than one used by the left, and it still continues to a great extent.  It's been well documented that FB algorithms reward extremism, and the "influencers" on the right were often driven to the extremes just to get Likes and Reposts.

I thought two wrongs didn't make a right?  All social media touching on politics is a cesspool.  It also gives a distorted view of reality given that less than 2% of people are active in anything beyond posting pics of their kids, pets, and vacations.  I also hold it responsible for the devolution of journalism as it promotes a 'click bait' approach to headlines and ratings as well as increases the feeling of urgency to get something out without vetting.  It's been a long time since serious, reflective, investigative journalism was really rewarded.  

Quote:

mamabug Wrote:But, I could be wrong, and I'm sure the lovey surveillance state we live in will soon reveal the truth.

I agree that this was planned and executed by professionals of one sort, or perhaps, many.  Transparency, on the other hand, is not all that great.  Actually, if this was the UK,, I would agree, but it's not.  We aren't bathed in video cameras like London (~25,000 the last time I was there).  For al;l the whining about loss of freedom, we maintain a lot of privacy here -- possibly to our detriment in this case.  Still, privacy is extremely important, and should be violated only under extreme circumstances.

Technologically, they have the ability to grab info about every cell phone that may have hit the congressional wi-fi or pinged off nearby towers.  4th amendment rights are the only thing preventing them from doing a pull of the data and tracking people down that way - but I wouldn't place any bets on that.  Libertarians have known since Snowden that law enforcement pulls the data first to build their suspect pool then finds ways to circumvent 'fruit of the poisonous tree' by building a case around them as if it came from other sources.   I'd be very surprised if the FBI didn't already have a list in their hands that, legally, they are not allowed to have but which we will never know about.

Maybe that's the reason why the Democrats and a few Republican allies are in such a big hurry to fully impeach Trump without due process and his right to run for President again in 2024. I mean, if it was already planned in advance without Trumps knowledge, Trump would be off the hook for inciting it. The Democrats have not been playing by the rules for quite a while now as a portion of the GOP hasn't done much/said much about it. From what I've learned over many years, the Left doesn't play fair or play nice either. So, there's is going to have to be a major shift taken by the American Right. It's pretty clear to me, the politicians and beltway folks aren't ready for what's coming and will find themselves having to choose sides. I hope they're smart.

Negligence, Classic X'er... it's negligence. President Trump gave a mealy-mouthed call for the insurrection to stop, but he still told the lie to his backers that they had been cheated. The criteria under which the 2020 Presidential election was a cheat has inadequate  evidence behind it. We have rules for deciding who wins elections, and those entail official counts by people with responsibility only for the integrity of the process.

I think its pretty obvious that the Democrats cheated by illegally changing state election laws in some key battleground states. So, the Democrats basically cheated them and cheated Trump. The law pertaining to changing state election laws written in the Constitution is crystal clear. It's to late for a do over at this point. The Supreme Court will eventually have to accept the case and declare what was done as unconstitutional to preserve the union and maintain order/peace. The Democrats pulled a fast one as we say. Government systems are known to be slow to respond with all the protocols and since there was no precedence and nothing like it ever occurred before there was no way to respond to it or stop it by the governors because that would require legislative action which isn't known to be fast either.

Like I said, there's a set time frame (a traditional date) for determining outcomes and transition if necessary and there was lives/integrity at stake The Supreme Court had three Trump appointed judges which doesn't look good and information was released about preparations that were underway for large scale violence to occur in several cities if Trump won. So, the Supreme Court passed on the opportunity to over turn an election that was more or less illegal and rigged in favor of the Democrats. Judges are human too. Do you do something that pisses off a bunch of barbarians or do something that angers more civilized Americans? You're lucky we're more tolerant than those on the Left and we have more faith in the American justice system to make things things right eventually, we could already be at war and free to kill/terrorize Democrats by thousands right now. In my opinion, you picked the wrong time in history for illegal shenanigans, a mentally incompetent President and a token VP and a House full of insecure and incompetent people pretending to be politicians and a Senate filled with them too. It's going to be a political train wreck dude.

[David Horn]

(01-16-2021, 05:04 PM)mamabug Wrote:

(01-16-2021, 10:09 AM)David Horn Wrote: Disinformation is nonsense, regardless of the source.  mamabug was parroting "information" that was already validated as false by many sources.  More to the point, there are several issues that are remaining classified for reasons not disclosed.  At least some of that is safety related.

I'm betting on a lot worse rather than the opposite.  So far, that's only my opinion.

Can you please let me know what information I was "parroting" that had been disproven.  My comment was aimed purely at the article posted right before mine that I felt contained a number of alarming elements in the context of whether we are moving further into or away from a 'crisis mindset.  Unnamed rumors without proof thrown out at the public seem, in my opinion, to be something heading even further into an 'us vs. them' mentality.

If the article has since been retracted or clarified, I'd appreciate a link.

Several members had already taken public positions that should get them ejected.  I apologize if you don't see that as evident.  Josh Hawley, Ted Cruz, Louie Gommert and several others made statements easily interpreted as supporting the insurrection.  Then this clown decided that packing in Congress was her right.

Expelling members of Congress is rare, but maybe not this time.

[pbrower2a]

(01-17-2021, 03:39 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(01-17-2021, 01:27 AM)pbrower2a Wrote:

(01-17-2021, 12:10 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Maybe that's the reason why the Democrats and a few Republican allies are in such a big hurry to fully impeach Trump without due process and his right to run for President again in 2024. I mean, if it was already planned in advance without Trumps knowledge, Trump would be off the hook for inciting it. The Democrats have not been playing by the rules for quite a while now as a portion of the GOP hasn't done much/said much about it. From what I've learned over many years, the Left doesn't play fair or play nice either. So, there's is going to have to be a major shift taken by the American Right. It's pretty clear to me, the politicians and beltway folks aren't ready for what's coming and will find themselves having to choose sides. I hope they're smart.

Negligence, Classic X'er... it's negligence. President Trump gave a mealy-mouthed call for the insurrection to stop, but he still told the lie to his backers that they had been cheated. The criteria under which the 2020 Presidential election was a cheat has inadequate  evidence behind it. We have rules for deciding who wins elections, and those entail official counts by people with responsibility only for the integrity of the process.

I think its pretty obvious that the Democrats cheated by illegally changing state election laws in some key battleground states. So, the Democrats basically cheated them and cheated Trump. The law pertaining to changing state election laws written in the Constitution is crystal clear. It's to late for a do over at this point. The Supreme Court will eventually have to accept the case and declare what was done as unconstitutional to preserve the union and maintain order/peace. The Democrats pulled a fast one as we say. Government systems are known to be slow to respond with all the protocols and since there was no precedence and nothing like it ever occurred before there was no way to respond to it or stop it by the governors because that would require legislative action which isn't known to be fast either.

Like I said, there's a set time frame (a traditional date) for determining outcomes and transition if necessary and there was lives/integrity at stake The Supreme Court had three Trump appointed judges which doesn't look good and information was released about preparations that were underway for large scale violence to occur in several cities if Trump won. So, the Supreme Court passed on the opportunity to over turn an election that was more or less illegal and rigged in favor of the Democrats. Judges are human too. Do you do something that pisses off a bunch of barbarians or do something that angers more civilized Americans? You're lucky we're more tolerant than those on the Left and we have more faith in the American justice system to make things things right eventually, we could already be at war and free to kill/terrorize Democrats by thousands right now. In my opinion, you picked the wrong time in history for illegal shenanigans, a mentally incompetent President and a token VP and a House full of insecure and incompetent people pretending to be politicians and a Senate filled with them too. It's going to be a political train wreck dude.

Let's get this clear. COVID-19 was a threat to the integrity of the election. Had some militia put itself in a position in which to intimidate voters or potential voters, then some sort of law enforcement would have been expected to clear that militia. Allowing people to vote safely is appropriate.  So more people voted... how do we know that people would have still voted in person on Election Day had it not been for COVID-19?

The election laws were changed in other states. In some states the change went (as in Michigan) from allowing the use of an absentee ballot for  certain categories of voters. Examples of excuses before 2020 were

(1) being over 60
(2) being out of town due to requirements of the job
(3) being in jail while under arrest facing charges but not yet convicted
(4) being a poll watcher or working at the election
(5) religious rules that prohibit in-person voting on Election Day
(6) under care in a nursing home or hospital
(7) incarcerated for a misdemeanor for which one does not lose voting rights

The danger of COVID-19 became a legitimate cause to vote absentee. COVID-19 was going to scare people away from voting at the polling place. 

So more people vote than was normal? That happens some years, especially when one of the nominees is catastrophically inept or is charismatic. You need to recognize that Donald Trump got a chance to show what he would be like as President, and 81 million people voted for the Other Guy. 

The changes made were largely by state legislatures, and typically had bipartisan support. I expect more states to go to postal voting as time goes on. Such is so in strongly-D Oregon and strongly-R Utah.  The changes were made to ensure that more people could vote. 

Should those changes remain in place in 2022 and 2024 they will pass Constitutional muster.  Removing them will be trickier.

[Classic-Xer]

(01-17-2021, 12:28 PM)pbrower2a Wrote:

(01-17-2021, 03:39 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(01-17-2021, 01:27 AM)pbrower2a Wrote:

(01-17-2021, 12:10 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Maybe that's the reason why the Democrats and a few Republican allies are in such a big hurry to fully impeach Trump without due process and his right to run for President again in 2024. I mean, if it was already planned in advance without Trumps knowledge, Trump would be off the hook for inciting it. The Democrats have not been playing by the rules for quite a while now as a portion of the GOP hasn't done much/said much about it. From what I've learned over many years, the Left doesn't play fair or play nice either. So, there's is going to have to be a major shift taken by the American Right. It's pretty clear to me, the politicians and beltway folks aren't ready for what's coming and will find themselves having to choose sides. I hope they're smart.

Negligence, Classic X'er... it's negligence. President Trump gave a mealy-mouthed call for the insurrection to stop, but he still told the lie to his backers that they had been cheated. The criteria under which the 2020 Presidential election was a cheat has inadequate  evidence behind it. We have rules for deciding who wins elections, and those entail official counts by people with responsibility only for the integrity of the process.

I think its pretty obvious that the Democrats cheated by illegally changing state election laws in some key battleground states. So, the Democrats basically cheated them and cheated Trump. The law pertaining to changing state election laws written in the Constitution is crystal clear. It's to late for a do over at this point. The Supreme Court will eventually have to accept the case and declare what was done as unconstitutional to preserve the union and maintain order/peace. The Democrats pulled a fast one as we say. Government systems are known to be slow to respond with all the protocols and since there was no precedence and nothing like it ever occurred before there was no way to respond to it or stop it by the governors because that would require legislative action which isn't known to be fast either.

Like I said, there's a set time frame (a traditional date) for determining outcomes and transition if necessary and there was lives/integrity at stake The Supreme Court had three Trump appointed judges which doesn't look good and information was released about preparations that were underway for large scale violence to occur in several cities if Trump won. So, the Supreme Court passed on the opportunity to over turn an election that was more or less illegal and rigged in favor of the Democrats. Judges are human too. Do you do something that pisses off a bunch of barbarians or do something that angers more civilized Americans? You're lucky we're more tolerant than those on the Left and we have more faith in the American justice system to make things things right eventually, we could already be at war and free to kill/terrorize Democrats by thousands right now. In my opinion, you picked the wrong time in history for illegal shenanigans, a mentally incompetent President and a token VP and a House full of insecure and incompetent people pretending to be politicians and a Senate filled with them too. It's going to be a political train wreck dude.

Let's get this clear. COVID-19 was a threat to the integrity of the election. Had some militia put itself in a position in which to intimidate voters or potential voters, then some sort of law enforcement would have been expected to clear that militia. Allowing people to vote safely is appropriate.  So more people voted... how do we know that people would have still voted in person on Election Day had it not been for COVID-19?

The election laws were changed in other states. In some states the change went (as in Michigan) from allowing the use of an absentee ballot for  certain categories of voters. Examples of excuses before 2020 were

(1) being over 60
(2) being out of town due to requirements of the job
(3) being in jail while under arrest facing charges but not yet convicted
(4) being a poll watcher or working at the election
(5) religious rules that prohibit in-person voting on Election Day
(6) under care in a nursing home or hospital
(7) incarcerated for a misdemeanor for which one does not lose voting rights

The danger of COVID-19 became a legitimate cause to vote absentee. COVID-19 was going to scare people away from voting at the polling place. 

So more people vote than was normal? That happens some years, especially when one of the nominees is catastrophically inept or is charismatic. You need to recognize that Donald Trump got a chance to show what he would be like as President, and 81 million people voted for the Other Guy. 

The changes made were largely by state legislatures, and typically had bipartisan support. I expect more states to go to postal voting as time goes on. Such is so in strongly-D Oregon and strongly-R Utah.  The changes were made to ensure that more people could vote. 

Should those changes remain in place in 2022 and 2024 they will pass Constitutional muster.  Removing them will be trickier.

Lets be clear, the Left undermined the entire political/electoral process and made a big mess and further weakened the integrity of the entire system that most of them are reliant upon one way or another. Yes, the changes and the illegality associated with Biden/Harris election could be swept under the rug/covered up and pass Constitutional muster if the Democrats were to expose their guilt of association/involvement by doing as they threatened/promised and eliminating the filibuster and pack the court with Obama minded judges and cause more violence and place their own lives at even more risk than today. Dude, America is going to turn against the Democrats and when it does there isn't anything the dip shits in power can do to stop it. American troops will join with the American side.

Keep in mind, I don't care if you're forced to vacate and starve or freeze to death or decide to off yourself or are assassinated or executed by American revolutionaries. The American Revolutionaries weren't nice to the Tories or the British army or the British governors. I can see that you have a devious mind  and you are able to rationalize and go along with criminal/unlikable/unthinkable activity as a means to serve your own interests. Well, that's fine with me, it helps to build a moral case for the removal of all of you by all/any means possible and strengthens ability to do so with a clean conscience and garner the full support of millions upon millions of more traditional minded Americans. Welcome to the 4T.

[Bob Butler 54]

(01-17-2021, 03:36 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Lets be clear, the Left undermined the entire political/electoral process and made a big mess and further weakened the integrity of the entire system that most of them are reliant upon one way or another. Yes, the changes and the illegality associated with Biden/Harris election could be swept under the rug/covered up and pass Constitutional muster if the Democrats were to expose their guilt of association/involvement by doing as they threatened/promised and eliminating the filibuster and pack the court with Obama minded judges and cause more violence and place their own lives at even more risk than today. Dude, America is going to turn against the Democrats and when it does there isn't anything the dip shits in power can do to stop it. American troops will join with the American side.  

Keep in mind, I don't care if you're forced to vacate and starve or freeze to death or decide to off yourself or are assassinated or executed by American revolutionaries. The American Revolutionaries weren't nice to the Tories or the British army or the British governors. I can see that you have a devious mind  and you are able to rationalize and go along with criminal/unlikable/unthinkable  activity as a means to serve your own interests. Well, that's fine with me, it helps to build a moral case for the removal of all of you by all/any means possible and strengthens ability to do so with a clean conscience and garner the full support of millions upon millions  of more traditional minded Americans. Welcome to the 4T.

The pretense of massive voter fraud is a big lie.  Trump has had lots of time to present the evidence, but hasn't.  He is fifty plus loses to one one (quite valid) win in court cases.  No suggestion that the supposed systematic fraud existed was presented in court as lying to a judge can get you disbarred.  The red news withdrew their reporting in the face of a defamation suit.  Still, Trump triggered an insurrection in an attempt to prevent the last mostly ceremonial step in the certification process.  I think he could have gained the few extra hours by having them object to a few more states and saved the need for an impeachment.  Congress sped things up when they reconvened, finalizing the process in a quicker manner than the insurgency cause a delay.  The states had already determined that there were no faithless electors.  Anyone could do the math, had done the math.  Pence's final announcement gave no surprise.  All Trump did was put an exclamation point on how he will go down in history and to throw some of his more extreme supporters under the bus.  I suppose he guaranteed employment for a few prosecutors, but that's it.

It is the red violent organizations such as the Proud Bois, QAnon, and a few militias that are into criminal / unlikeable / unthinkable activity.  Their activities, supported by Trump, did build a moral case for the removal of the criminal violent element by any means possible.

Welcome to the 4T.  The federal regeneracy comes Wednesday.

[Eric the Green]

(01-12-2021, 04:59 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(01-12-2021, 04:11 PM)David Horn Wrote:

(01-11-2021, 11:33 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Is the Democratic population free these days? How much power and authority does the Democratic party have over you and most of its base these days? Let's see, it spent months scaring its base into submission to the point where it was afraid to be vaccinated for Christ's sake. Mrs. Obama looked dumbfounded when she was asked by a reporter about that problem and what they planned to do to fix that problem. Whatever, you made your own choice which was the only choice that someone like you have these days.   

What are you talking about?  The anti-vaxxers are all on your side, along with the anti-maskers and anti-rationalists in general.

The vast majority of the anti-vaccine folks and anti-rationalists are on your side these days. Your side politicized the covid crisis and politicized the situation that occurred with George Floyd and your politicizing what happened at the capitol last week. The anti-maskers are more likely on my side. The Democratic side, you included, spent the last several months participating in a large scale fear/hate campaign that's on the verge of blowing up in the Democrats face. I keep telling you guys that you digging your own graves as you continue to go about your business of scaring/angering your half of the country into isolation or submission. I keep telling you that there is a limitation on what you guys are doing and able to get away with and once it's reached, the politicians and the people like yourself who are going to find themselves at serious risk and paying a significant price and find out what it's like to be afraid for their lives and living out the rest of their lives in fear. I keep telling you that there's a difference between Democratic voters and Republican voters and keep telling you that you have to change your normal approach with them when your facing/dealing with us directly.

The anti-vaxxers and anti-rationalists are mostly on your side, but there are some on my side as well. Conspiracy theory culture infects left, right and center; libertarian to statist. However, your side elected the conspiracy theorist in chief, and the king of irrationality. He invents his own reality, and expects us to believe it, on penalty of violence.

The anti-maskers are on your side, and are principle promoters of irrationality. Your side, you included, participated in the biggest misinformation and fear campaign in history, resulting in a huge death toll (is it almost 400,000 now?). The only workable approach to thugs like you, and other Trump followers: de-platform you, de-elect you, and jail you if you commit crimes.

[pbrower2a]

Wrong. COVID-19 made a potential travesty of the 2020 Presidential election. Not even human, it has no standing in influencing the election by potentially scaring people away from voting in person on Election Day. If it is illegal as an individual or gang to threaten people at a voting place, it is at least possible for a sheriff to disperse that gang or person... or haul anyone involved to jail. If the sheriff and the local deputies are not enough, then maybe state troopers can intervene. COVID-19 cannot be arrested.

If someone appeared at a polling place with this sort of attire and prop (the car in use obviously dates the image), 




then you can imagine the consequences. Laws exist against intimidation of voters. COVID-19 is similarly intimidating. The changes to election rules were necessary to allow people to vote. Far fewer people would have voted than did, and that would have distorted the result. We would have an extremely-unpopular President and a solid R majority in the Senate... and possibly a bare R majority in the House. In view of the behavior of the President, we would have a dictatorship complete with a secret police that was forming in the summer of 2020.

...My survival does not depend upon your choice. Ideally it does not depend upon the choice of some plutocrat who in a nightmarish alternative universe (OK, the Third Reich was like that) that can choose that I work at their terms or go to a labor camp to be worked under a lash to exhaustion for starvation rations -- or starve in the cold or extreme heat. You stand for a very cruel world, one that I would flee if I had the means. At my age I would simply die.  

You can say all you want about Democrats getting undue advantages, but 

(1) the best explanation of the change in voting results from 2016 to 2020 is that the electorate changed because 6.4% of the electorate, people largely over 55 and about 5% more R than D, died or went debile and could no longer vote while new voters from the Millennial generation, who are about 20% more D than R, supplanted them in the electorate. That would have been enough to swing Michigan, Pennsylvania, and Wisconsin (which would have been enough) and Florida. Trump still won Florida and its 29 electoral votes -- but lost Arizona, Georgia, and the Second Congressional District of Nebraska which together hold 28 electoral votes. 

(2) three states (Maine, Minnesota, and New Hampshire) that were very close in 2016  were on the fringe of contention in 2020 according to their results.  Nevada, the only state that stayed similarly close in 2020 as in 2016 turns out to have gone 2.39% against Trump in 2016 to 2.32% against him. Ho-hum!

Let's put it this way: if one won the first time by a landslide as Obama did in 2008 (7.26%  with 365 electoral votes) one has a margin for losing something (he went down to a 3.16% margin while losing 33 electoral votes that he could have afforded to lose, and he came close to losing Florida... which he could have still afforded to lose. Obama won in 2008 in a climate in which people were scared of another Great Depression. In 2012 people faced no such danger (thank you, Obama!), and Obama faced an unusually-strong challenger for an above-average President. Mitt Romney did not run for President in 2016 or 2020... probably due to the health (MS) of his wife. Too bad. Romney would have won against Hillary Clinton in 2016, and would have been re-elected decisively against some weak challenger from the Democratic Party.. maybe someone honored with a nomination for basically "long and distinguished service to the Party". Walter Mondale fit that description in 1984.

Eight years of Mitt Romney, starting in 2012 or 2016, would be far better than four years of Obama and four of Donald Judas Trump (it would be a loss over Obama for me, but a huge gain over Trump!) or four years of Donald Judas Trump (an unmitigated disaster would be averted) and whatever Biden does. Trump has had that troublesome a Presidency that a partisan hack such as I can recognize that small gains of quality in a Presidency are not worth huge losses from an erratic, corrupt, and despotic Administration. 

(3) Democrats usually canvass for votes late, and such is usually good for winning a few votes . They didn't -- because of COVID-19. Joe Biden did not do Trump-style mass rallies because such were too dangerous for him, not to mention audiences. This may have made the difference in some House and Senate races to the advantage of Republicans.  This may have explained why Democrats did less well than polling would have suggested.   

Most polling indicated that Democrats would win in a romp. The inability to canvass cost the Democrats one to three Senate seats. Trump did better than expected, but he still lost. 

(4) Trump faced the buzz-saw of the Skwronek cycle that suggests of ten to twelve Presidentiads* (40 to 48 years) that begins with a highly-successful President (Jackson, Lincoln, TR, FDR, or Reagan) who sets the norms for politics for the next  40 to 48 years in part because what he does is fresh and succeeds because unintended consequences aren't as strong. The last President in that cycle (J Q Adams, Buchanan, arguably McKinley, Hoover, Carter, or Trump) does much the same as the first President of the cycle and finds himself terribly ineffective. Economic incentives cost almost as much as they do good. Policies much the same forty years later lose their sizzle or become ineffective. 

As an example of how that works, a Chicago White Sox team had four right-handed fastball pitchers as their starting rotation. On the surface that is a good starting rotation, except for one thing: in the third game of a three-game stretch against the same team, the opposing team had timed the pitching of the third pitcher that they faced. The White Sox may have gone .600 in the first two games, but they went .300 in the third. They were a championship-caliber team in two games and a typical last-place team in the third. They played about .500 ball that year... and they traded away two of those pitchers and ended up with a left-handed fast-ball pitcher and someone with a nasty curve ball, They improved.

(5) Face it -- Trump is objectively one of the worst Presidents ever. He was about as offensive to most liberals as even the existence of Barack Obama (Oh, the race-mixing!) would have been to the fellow in that image. Does "Grab 'em by the p***y" offend you? Someone with sexual mores as conservative as mine sees such as rape should there be no consent. Selling out the Kurds in Syria to dictator "Butcher" Assad is a disgrace.  Mocking an autistic reporter is bad form.   


*Ralph Waldo Emerson called Presidential terms that!

[Eric the Green]

(01-14-2021, 03:14 PM)mamabug Wrote: From my perspective, this is starting to get very scary. My stance on Jan 6th is the same as it was last week, and the weeks before that - violent groups exist on the fringes of both sides. Everyone is very good at looking at their side and saying 'well, that group doesn't really represent 95% of my side, they are just a distraction the other team uses.' I hear that from people justifying rioters burning down billions in property and killing over 30 people and I hear that from people justifying Charlottesville and the Capitol breach alike. When push comes to shove, they both usually start blaming 'provocateurs' and muttering about false flags.

What can be the motive to believe these exaggerations? Who killed 30 people? Burning down billions in property? I don't agree with the anti-fascist tactics of antifa, but they are not responsible for riots and destruction. They confront fascists, sometimes violently. The Trumpists and Republicans even blame black lives matter protesters, even though they were peaceful and created a necessary renewal of conversation about race and police brutality. I don't excuse the relative few who were angry over horrific injustice and burned a few buildings. But 90% of terrorism in the USA comes from the right-wing. There were provocateurs at the anti-racist riots, but there were none at the Capitol. It does no good to say "both sides do it" if this is not the truth.

Quote:The similarity of how groups think would be scary if it wasn't utterly predictable form a sociological behavior standpoint.

Anyway, the thing I have a very hard time believing is that elected government officials, especially at the national level, would go beyond the usual excuses and 'what-about-a-lism' to actively assisting and engaging in planning a violent assault *on themselves*.

That this is even part of the national conversation, especially without names or any proof furnished as part of the accusation, is the beginning of a dangerous path. Despite pretty much every national level Republican or Republican sympathizer in politics, media, and/or alternative media condemning the events of Jan 6th, the narrative being shaped is that not only were the perpetrators on the right, but all Republicans are evil people who either tacitly or actively support this.

I don't think Senator Hawley or Cruz planned the riot on the Capitol. But those who call for their exclusion from the Senate say that perpetuating Trump's lie about the election was the motive for the riots. Those who objected to Biden's victory in the electoral college, were objecting to democracy. Do YOU object to it? I agree with those calls for expulsion of them from the Senate. Those who planned the riots were certainly various alt-right groups, but these groups have ties to the Trump administration, and Trump sponsored some of them to speak at the rally that incited the riots, and they used explicitly-violent language. There must have been some link from Trump officials and the riot.

Quote:Either the people making the accusation are irresponsible, they are so far into their bubble they legitimately are unable to see their colleagues as human, or they are making a cynical ploy to justify exclusion or outright removal of any Republican who stands in their way. I've read enough on this board to know some of you would be perfectly happy with that because you are also so far into your in-group and the crisis mindset that you have no problem with stomping all over half the country. From where I stand, this is what totalitarianism looks like.

The right-wing seeks to impose a totalitarian, fascist, racist dictatorship on the country, and they have found a leader in Trump they can rally behind, and 140 House members and 8 senators did their bidding. I don't favor violence to exclude right-wingers from our country, but I hope the people have sense enough to vote out the Republicans and send their party into oblivion. To think they are a viable opposition party, is to agree with right-wing goals: racism, trickle-down economics, militarism and super-patriotism, environmental destruction, ridiculous gun rights, religious fundamentalism used against women, gays and non-christians, and so on. I disagree. Today's right wing must be defeated, and the Republican Party must ditch it or go away, and be replaced with a different opposition party, or better yet a multi-party parliamentary republic like all advanced democracies have. Those who advocate terror and violence must be de-platformed, regardless of which faction they support.

Quote:There better be either a complete and public exoneration (including a censure of Rep. Sherrill for circulating this rumor in the first place) or a hell of a lot of proof for me to not see this as Democratic politicians acting in bad faith for the purposes of hurting people they disagree with.

Forgive my impassioned ranting, I've said all along it wasn't the events that alarmed me so much as the response and this is exactly what I mean. I never thought I would live in an America where one major party didn't just impugn the other but sought to convict them as traitors. How this doesn't end in bloodshed and terror is becoming increasingly something I can't see.

Forgive my impassioned ranting, but the Republicans have harbored a nest of traitors. There are some Republicans who have come clean and spoken out, and other have at least not joined these traitors in full. Even McConnell showed some statesmanship. It is up to Republicans to rid themselves of Trump, trumpism, and all of their extreme ideas, or be left out and left behind. If the people wake up and get smart, progress can be restarted after this long 40-year dark age of regression, stalemate and decline. Let's make our country great again, and go back BEFORE Reagan, and progress BEYOND Republicans today. Let's build back better. We are all in this together. We are stronger together.

[Eric the Green]

(01-17-2021, 11:50 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(01-16-2021, 05:04 PM)mamabug Wrote:

(01-16-2021, 10:09 AM)David Horn Wrote: Disinformation is nonsense, regardless of the source.  mamabug was parroting "information" that was already validated as false by many sources.  More to the point, there are several issues that are remaining classified for reasons not disclosed.  At least some of that is safety related.

I'm betting on a lot worse rather than the opposite.  So far, that's only my opinion.

Can you please let me know what information I was "parroting" that had been disproven.  My comment was aimed purely at the article posted right before mine that I felt contained a number of alarming elements in the context of whether we are moving further into or away from a 'crisis mindset.  Unnamed rumors without proof thrown out at the public seem, in my opinion, to be something heading even further into an 'us vs. them' mentality.

If the article has since been retracted or clarified, I'd appreciate a link.

Several members had already taken public positions that should get them ejected.  I apologize if you don't see that as evident.  Josh Hawley, Ted Cruz, Louie Gommert and several others made statements easily interpreted as supporting the insurrection.  Then this clown decided that packing in Congress was her right.

Expelling members of Congress is rare, but maybe not this time.

"Then this clown decided that packing in Congress was her right." I copied this article because it's hard to read at its site.

Calls for Lauren Boebert's Expulsion Go National

Only a few days into her term as U.S. Representative for Colorado's 3rd Congressional District, Lauren Boebert is already being inundated with calls for her to resign the position or risk being expelled by her new colleagues for allegedly helping to incite the violence that took place in Washington, D.C., on January 6. And these efforts are getting national attention, with CNN putting a report about the controversial firebrand in heavy rotation over this past weekend.


For her part, Boebert has made it clear that she doesn't plan to go anywhere despite the furor created by Coloradans who voted against her and those who wish they could have.

Boebert's election was an indication that while Colorado may be a largely blue state at this point, it's hardly monochromatic. While the 3rd CD is not as conservative as it once was, it remains a GOP stronghold loaded with longtime residents who see Boebert — a fervent Second Amendment advocate from Rifle who co-owns Shooters Grill, a restaurant at which the waitstaff packs heat — as a bold and charismatic figure.

As a result, a majority of district voters ignored numerous warning signs about Boebert's extremism — including her onetime campaign manager's praise of the thuggish Proud Boys and her own rhapsodizing about QAnon on a podcast friendly to the loony conspiracist organization — and pushed her to victory this past November. And since then, she's remained on-brand, announcing with great ballyhoo her plan to carry a Glock handgun while in the nation's capital, much to the alarm of local law enforcement.

This move took on a different tone after the events of January 6, when Congress was scheduled to certify the election of Joe Biden as the next president — something Boebert opposed based on completely fictional claims of voter fraud promoted by her political hero, President Donald Trump. The CNN piece spotlighted two Boebert tweets from earlier that day — the first reading "Today is 1776," the second stressing that "America is depending on us today. This is something I don't take lightly. I will fight with everything I have to ensure the fairness of this election."

In the last sentence, CNN highlighted the word "fight."

As the riot ramped up, Boebert continued tweeting on her personal account, whose introduction includes the line "Follow me on Parler," the divisive platform for racism and white supremacy founded by two University of Denver attendees that was just banned by Amazon, Apple and Google. Her critics contend that one message mentioning that House Majority Leader Nancy Pelosi had been removed from the main chamber showed that she was secretly communicating with insurrectionists — a claim mighty hard to prove despite circumstantial evidence. But Boebert's video statement about the riot, tweeted on January 8, was certainly no mea culpa.

Granted, Boebert was critical of the rioters, who "were not conservatives," she said. "Conservatives don't tear our country down. We build our country up." But this mild rebuke followed plenty of finger-pointing at liberals. "I want you all to know how proud I am to have taken a stand on the Electoral College certification," she continued. "The onslaught that we have seen on our Electoral College from the Democrats was what got me involved with this to begin with." She also asserted that the Dems want to control the lives of every citizen, adding, "Hold onto your faith. It's going to be a bumpy ride. But we are Americans — and we will find a way to persevere."
Here's the video:
https://twitter.com/i/status/1347594745665695746

Even more stunningly, Boebert followed up this clip with a January 9 tweet in which she contended that "Democrats have normalized violence and proved it to be an effective tool to advance an agenda. They now have the control they’ve been pursuing and their first act is a social media purge" — an obvious reference to Twitter's decision to permanently suspend Trump's account. In her words, "Republicans have to end this attack on free speech."

In an expression of their own thoughts, the members of Rural Colorado United staged what they dubbed two "rallies in support of Lauren Boebert's expulsion from Congress" on January 8.

The previous day, numerous elected officials, political leaders and groups across the state had sent an open letter to Boebert and Representative Doug Lamborn, who also voted against certifying Biden's win, demanding they resign. "The events of January 6th 2021, which you each incited and directly encouraged, were a blatant assault on our country," the letter reads. "Your role in [the] violent failed coup makes you unworthy, and undeserving of the honor of representing Colorado in Congress. You violated the oath of office you took mere days ago — therefore we demand your immediate resignation and an end to your fanning of the flames that caused this attempted coup at once."

Here's the complete text of the letter, along with the names of the progressive elected officials, individuals and organizations that signed it.

January 7, 2021
TO: Representative Doug Lamborn & Representative Lauren Boebert
The final congressional proceedings to certify Joe Biden’s victory were disrupted yesterday by a terrorist attack in support of outgoing President Donald Trump, storming the U.S. Capitol and forcing the evacuation of elected officials and the lockdown of the United States Capitol building. In response, a broad, diverse coalition of undersigned progressive advocacy groups and leaders in Colorado are demanding your immediate resignation for your role in inciting the violence and insurrection that gripped Washington, D.C. and claimed the lives of at least four Americans. Our organizations collectively believe in democracy as a tool to create a more just and fair world — and we believe in steadfastly upholding the basic tenets of that democracy to secure a free and fair society. Since you have badly failed to do so, your immediate resignation is now warranted and necessary.

The basic and fundamental responsibilities of our elected officials are to represent the will of the people — to uphold the tenets of our Constitution and respect our democratic institutions. You, Rep. Lauren Boebert and Rep. Doug Lamborn, have betrayed the trust of Colorado voters by helping incite violence against the body you were elected to, a body designed to serve us. By endorsing the president’s unsubstantiated and repeatedly debunked, discredited, and false claims of voter fraud, you encouraged and tacitly endorsed the actions of these terrorists and threatened the basic foundation of our democracy. The violence in Washington, D.C. yesterday by supporters of President Donald Trump was a terrible offense against the rights of every American to live in a free and fair democracy — an attack on our country and on our people. You and President Trump attempted to overturn the November 2020 elections after dozens of judges, the U.S. Supreme Court, and even the President’s own Attorney General rejected the false and outrageous claims that have fomented the violence we saw yesterday.

You are directly responsible for the destruction and mayhem that engulfed the U.S. Capitol and American democracy yesterday. Never in our history has such a baseless attempt to subvert the will of the voters been allowed to fester into violence inside the United States Capitol. Just three days ago, Rep. Boebert publicly announced her intention to carry a handgun into the Capitol in violation of local and federal laws. A woman was killed inside the Capitol, and violent insurrectionists brought their ammunition to the House floor. There were at least two suspected incendiary devices found in D.C. outside the headquarters of the Republican National Committee and the Democratic National Committee alike. Your sycophantic lack of leadership has endangered Americans. Every member of Congress who helped incite protesters to violence in the People’s House today has forfeited their ability to serve there. You have proven with your actions that you do not respect our democratic institutions, and therefore have no business representing the great state of Colorado in Congress — you must resign immediately.

Over the summer, Black and Brown protestors and activists peacefully demanded justice and an end to systemic and institutional racism. The National Guard was on standby then with a militarized police force who didn’t hesitate to use military tactics against peaceful groups, but when white extremists threatened the very foundation of our democracy, police took selfies with them and literally opened the gate for them. You and other conservative leaders issued exaggerated condemnations of racial justice protesters as being supposedly violent, but yesterday we saw true violence against our democracy play out, as the chickens of your extremism have come home to roost.

The events of January 6th 2021, which you each incited and directly encouraged, were a blatant assault on our country. Your role in yesterday’s violent failed coup makes you unworthy, and undeserving of the honor of representing Colorado in Congress. You violated the oath of office you took mere days ago — therefore we demand your immediate resignation and an end to your fanning of the flames that caused this attempted coup at once.

Signed,
State Senator Julie Gonzales
State Senator Chris Hansen
State Senator Dominick Moreno
State Senator Brittany Pettersen
State Senator Tammy Story
State Senator-Elect, State Representative Sonya Jacquez-Lewis
State Representative Brianna Titone
State Representative Emily Sirota
State Representative Lisa Cutter
State Representative Serena Gonzales-Gutierrez
State Representative-Elect Tracey Bernett
Former State Representative Bri Buentello
RTD Director Shontel M. Lewis
Adams County Commission Chair Emma Pinter
Adams County Commissioner Eva Henry
Aurora City Councilmember Alison Coombs
Aurora City Councilmember Allison Hiltz
Aurora City Councilmember Crystal Murillo
Aurora City Councilmember Nicole Johnson
Aurora City Councilmember Juan Marcano
Boulder City Councilmember Aaron Brockett
Boulder City Councilmember Adam Swetlik
Boulder City Councilmember Mirabai Nagle
Boulder City Councilmember Rachel Friend
Broomfield City Councilmember Deven Shaff
Broomfield City Councilmember Heidi Henkel
Broomfield City Councilmember Guyleen Castriotta
Broomfield City Councilmember William Lindstedt
Denver City Council President Stacie Gilmore
Denver City Councilmember Amanda Sawyer
Denver City Councilmember Candi CdeBaca
Denver City Councilmember Chris Hinds
Denver School Board Director Tay Anderson
Edgewater City Councilmember Caleb Rountree
Edgewater City Councilmember Michal Rosenoer
Lafayette Mayor Jamie Harkins
Lakewood City Councilmember Dana Gutwein
Lyons Trustee Hollie Rogin
Superior Town Trustee Tim Howard
Thornton City Councilmember Julia Marvin
Former Littleton City Councilmember Kyle Schlachter
9to5 Colorado
American Federation of Teachers Colorado
Ark Valley Indivisible
Broomfield CAN
Boulder Area Labor Council, AFL-CIO
Blue Rising
Citizens for Democracy
Clergy Emergency League, Colorado Chapter
COBALT
COLOR Action Fund
Colorado Doctors for Camp Closure
Colorado AFL-CIO
Colorado People’s Action
Colorado Rising
Colorado WINS
Colorado Working Families Party
Communications Workers of America District 7
Conservation Colorado
D3 Colorado
Democracy Enter Colorado
Denver Creative Industries Alliance
Denver Democratic Socialists of America
Denver Young Democrats
Indivisible CD5
Indivisible CD6
Indivisible CD7
Indivisible Denver
Indivisible Durango
Indivisible Front Range Resistance
Indivisible Grand Junction
Indivisible Highlands Ranch
Indivisible Montrose Colorado
Indivisible Weld & Adams County
Justin Kurth — Colorado State Leader, Stand Up Republic
Mi Familia Vota
New Era Colorado Action Fund
Nita Lynch — Colorado Presidential Elector
Laura Packard
Lorena Garcia
One Broomfield Indivisible
One Colorado
Pike’s Peak Progressives
Frm. State Rep. Polly Baca — Presidential Elector
ProgressNow Colorado
Project VOYCE
Planned Parenthood Votes Colorado
Rabbi Deborah Bronstein
Rosemari Ochoa LLC
Ron Ruggiero, President, SEIU Local 105
SEIU Colorado
Susan McFadden — Colorado Presidential Elector
The Resistance 5280
Transformative Leadership for Change
Trish Zornio
UFCW Local 7
United for a New Economy Action
UNITE HERE Local 23
Women’s Lobby of Colorado
Warm Cookies of the Revolution
Youth R.E.P.

If Boebert was able to stir up this much frustration and ire in mere days on the job, just imagine what the next two years will be like.