Presidential election, 2016

[pbrower2a]

(11-26-2016, 07:22 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(11-25-2016, 09:46 PM)pbrower2a Wrote:

(11-25-2016, 07:12 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(11-24-2016, 08:33 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: The outlawry of totalitarian movements hardly compromises democracy. Such Parties effectively become crime syndicates beyond any possibility of reform into something benign.  I speak of among others the Nazi Party, Fascist Party, Ba'ath Party of Iraq, Parti Populaire Francais,  Arrow Cross, Iron Guard, Imperial Rule Assistance League, and the Communist Party of Romania. If it is acceptable to outlaw criminal enterprises that exist largely for human trafficking, distribution of dangerous drugs, and financial scams, then why is it not acceptable to outlaw organizations that existed at one time to promote military aggression, slavery, or genocide?

Funny, you don't see/recognize the obvious signs, obvious language, obvious beliefs, the obvious type of people who are more likely to go along and  activities associated with totalitarian minded people, totalitarian group and totalitarian like movements and actions that is obviously more prevalent TODAY on the progressive left than the American right. If the crisis boils down to the American libertarian right vs the totalitarian left in a civil war as you are seeing a prelude and a glimpse of today right here, what you saw happening between people at the Trump rallies and saw happening to regular regular folks in the streets before and after the rallies and so on. Liberals ain't wise people. Liberals ain't very sharp people. Liberals ain't very sensible/practical people. Liberals ain't very instinctual people. Liberals ain't very American minded and pretty clueless when it comes to American nature.

One necessary element of totalitarianism is the criminalization of dissent. If you wish to speak of a 'libertarian' Right, then you do not speak of crony-capitalist, big government Donald Trump, who has shown plenty of desire to squelch dissent with his policies. You can trust that if President Trump thrusts an unpopular, extremist agenda contrary to the values of most Americans ... he has lost liberals permanently, but such moderate conservatives as there are could easily turn against him... then we can expect protests and demonstrations as commonplace and vociferous as those of the Tea Party against Obama.

We liberals aren't wise? We are probably more learned in history, philosophy, political science, and psychology. We are less likely to fall for demagogues. We are better able to use language and logic than you are. We know enough to address issues instead of personalities (unless the personalities become corrupt or despotic, in which case the personalities become the issues).

The Libertarian Right is practically impotent in America. It's not scary, either. The Totalitarian Left is small. Sure, there are devotees of Trotsky, Lenin, Mao, Castro, and the Kims, and other splinter groups, but even the Communist Party of the USA seems to be going with liberals. The Totalitarian Right? Donald Trump has gone from seeming a right-ting crank to a full-blown fascist. We liberals are rather libertarian on culture and sex -- and we are at a minimum of 45% of the electorate. It wouldn't take much more of a coalition for us to win the Presidency in 2020. Trump looks like the sort who squeezes harder only to lose sympathy and become scary.

So we aren't very instinctive. We prefer reasoning, and if our reasoning doesn't go in your direction, then tough luck. So we aren't very national-minded? We prefer that our nations operate humanely. I have more in common in my politics with an Indonesian liberal than with an American fascist.  Liberalism is international because its principles are the same everywhere.  But should I ever be in the situation between standing for a liberal enemy of a fascist America and aiding a criminal fascist regime in America... the moral choice will be obvious.

You voted for a demagogue. You're associated with left wing demagogues. You take the bulk of your cues from left wing demagogues. You repeat what left wing demagogues say about us. You're a left wing demagogue who posts here. You have much more in common with the demagogues than me. You should evaluate your reasoning and add more truth about yourself and more truth and knowledge of what/how you post here to your reasoning.

Demagogue? Me? NO! I despise left-wing demagogues, too -- including Mugabe, Chavez, and the newly-departed Fidel Castro. They promise to take from the super-rich and invariably end up deciding that as they have custody of what they took from more traditional elites that they want it themselves. You know how it goes -- the great Savior of the Working Class overthrows the aristocratic and plutocratic elite only to live like the aristocratic or plutocratic elite. Orwell got that right in Animal Farm.

I voted for Hillary Clinton in 2016, and Barack Obama the last two Presidential elections. I have voted for conventional liberals for House and Senate seats. I have been involved in active campaigning since 2008 when I went to the local Republican headquarters to ask about local politicians  after saying that I was going to vote for Barack Obama -- and the people there tried to brainwash me about abortion, school prayer, and creationism -- and that Barack Obama is a Muslim. On the night that Barack Obama won the Presidency I explained why I became an active campaigner. "See these wrinkles? See this thinning, graying hair? Were these people fools enough to believe that I could change core values that I have had since my twenties in a half hour?"

I may now regret that Barack Obama got re-elected, but only because Mitt Romney would be much less dangerous and less offensive than Donald Trump. If by some unlikely series of events the process of choosing the President of the United States gave us Mitt Romney as a compromise, I would feel great relief. America would be spared a dangerous, divisive demagogue.  

It is more likely that you voted for a demagogue, Donald Trump. You voted for someone who ran on mass resentments of economic losers with white skins against successful members of minority groups. You fell for an anti-intellectualism that goes far beyond disdain of some wayward college professor or writer of pretentious books to a contempt of learning. So far as I can tell, your ideal of learning is the basics (reading, writing, and arithmetic), right-wing propaganda, and preparation for a narrow career. The sort of education in which you believe makes judgment of self-interest, morality including fairness, scientific validity, and the general veracity of people impossible. The sort of limited learning that you want people to have would make them unable to judge anything that has an air of official support. The sort of learning that you want people to have is the sort that the worst tyrants have ever existed have wanted people to have -- the ability to understand simple orders and obey them without judgment of whether they have any moral validity. "Beat that kulak to death". "Herd those Jews into the gas chamber made to look like a mass shower". "Kill the running dogs of American Imperialism!". "Unleash the gas onto the Kurds". At a lower level of power, "Let's not wait for a trial. Just string up that n***er!"

Donald Trump is a demagogue because he has promised bounties from racism and intellectualism, implicitly to white people at the expense of others. He would set race relations back fifty years, with an acrimonious debate in public life on which people are to be subordinate to whom. He would set labor-management relations back ninety years with an attempt to break unions nationwide  -- and make possible a renaissance of Marxist extremism in America. He suggested an Education secretary who thinks that public education for working-class kids might best serve those kids by funneling them as quickly as possible into the under-paid, over-worked proletariat. He wants the rich to see their taxes cut so much that the rest of Americans would feel great increases in their tax burdens. He certainly wants to subordinate Nature to the quick-buck exploitation of resources. He wants Americans to become nothing more than their economic roles -- just work, and don't think or complain. Owners and bosses are the only people who can judge right from wrong.

Registry of Muslims because of their religion?


It is telling that a Jewish-Islamic alliance is appearing in America. Some people don't want others to endure the same experiences that some relatives endured as the result of religious bigotry. Before anyone tries to tell me how horrible Islam is, just recall my story about the difference between Michigan Avenue in the Sodom and Gomorrah that is southwestern Detroit and in family-friendly, heavily-Islamic Dearborn. I may prefer my brand of secularism to Islam, but if I had to choose between the amoral secularism of whorehouses and strip clubs to the Islamic ideal, I'd prefer Islam. My secularism has its predication in some well-honed morality, a morality that precludes abuse and exploitation, a morality that requires some ability to judge right from wrong.

Now here's something for you to contemplate: is Donald Trump a Christian?

I am a liberal. I believe in the Bill of Rights, including the right to bear arms (If I lived in bear country I would keep a firearm handy!). I believe in checks and balances. I believe in fair play. I believe in equal opportunity. I believe in the cultivation of learning and not simply vocational training just so that life can be rich and that people can make competent choices in life.