Debate about Gun Control

[Classic-Xer]

(07-10-2016, 06:17 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(07-10-2016, 02:02 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Bob, I don't have issues with your so-called values. I'm sure that we have similar values. I have issues with your politicians and whether or not they truly represent certain values or if they're just using values to get ahead.  I have at least three sets of values. I represent American values (classical liberal values). I have moral values. I have personal values. I get the impression that you have one set of values and that's it. I get the impression that progressive values are it as far as your values go. Although, when I press you a bit, I learn you have values we do commonly share. Values that are at odds with the progressive values that you stand for. In short, I don't like your politicians. I don't like the bulk of your base. I don't like the people your party attracts. PB is pathetic. Eric is a self centered leach. Odin is an issue waiting to happen. Hilary Clinton is Hilary Clinton. Kerry is a weasel. Al Sharpton is worthless piece of shit. Liberal today ain't what means and you're tied it. White American and portions of black America, brown America, yellow America, gay America, female America have had with your people. A large enough group to cut ties, remove the Constitution and the flag and reestablish and move on. You'll have a choice to make when this begins to happen during the 4t.

This one takes some answering.  Sorry if I go on at length, look at it from multiple angles, and the angles sometimes conflict with one another.  Well, sorta sorry.  That's kind of what I do.

Elites seek power and wealth.  It's what they do.  They hang out with one another, make friends with each other, and make deals with each other.  In other words, power corrupts.  Liberals distrust conservative politicians.  Conservatives distrust liberal politicians.  We will be making progress when liberals and conservatives come together to distrust all politicians.

At this point, I can complement the conservatives in that they have rejected their establishment business as usual politicians and are at least trying for something radically different.  The radically different I can approve of.  That the choice is Trump....   Not so much, but I'll leave that alone for the moment.

Conservative politicians give lip service to smaller government.  Progressives give lip service to government serving the working People.  Both are admirable goals.  The bases on both sides are reasonable in looking for these things.  Neither is happening, not to anywhere near the extent that I would like.  To a great extent, each flavor of politician is blocking the other, making it hard to keep promises made to either base.  I'd like to see more creative cooperation in working together to get closer to doing both.  What I'm seeing is the use of the other party as an excuse for not doing as promised.

To a great extent, this is because the political elites are serving the monetary elites rather than either base.  Campaign contributions from wealthy donors is seen as a better path to gain and keep power than serving the base.  This is apt to continue until and unless we have a major values shift.  Accepting contributions from major donors has got to be viewed as a sign of corruption, a disqualification from serving in office.

The Republicans have traditionally been the party of the Robber Barons.  While the parties have flip flopped on many issues, with at one point the Republicans being the party freeing the black people, and at another time their being the isolationists, some things change, with the Democrats flip flopping on such issues right with them.  Still, the Republicans have always been with the Robber Barons.  If anything is changing recently, it is that both parties are currently serving the Robber Barons.  Both parties -- well, Sanders did buck the trend somewhat -- are in bed with big money.  This is not a good thing for Everyman.

I've been watching the various partisans on the forum accuse the other side's politicians of being, dirty, rotten, corrupt, divorced from service to the people and being otherwise vile and unspeakable, and I can agree whole heartedly with most of it.  Going in either direction.  I'd like to see more emphasis on politics, less emphasis on personal vilification.  I don't want to spend a lot of time reading about bad personal habits or personalities.  I'm more concerned with how politicians drive policy, less about them as people.  I'm not in love with Hillary, nor do I assume that all Republicans are in love with Trump.  That our current political system nominated two people very much disliked for good reason by lots of folk is very very problematic.  As much as I dislike our two presumptive nominees, I dislike the process that made them our presumptive nominees even less.  The insider elites have got a system of locking out anyone who might rock the boat down pretty good.

Jefferson's self evident truths are close to the heart of my political values.  People will suffer corruption and tyranny while it can be suffered, but have the right to revolt when it becomes intolerable.  Just how intolerable is intolerable?  When does Jefferson cease to be a founding father embodying stability, democracy, Rights and all our American virtues, and when do we remember Jefferson the revolutionary?  Is now the time to water the Tree of Liberty with the blood of patriots and tyrants?  You have clearly reached your Popeye Point.  Enough is enough, and enough is too much.

I don't know that the country is with you yet.  We have the beginnings of a spiral of rhetoric and violence, but the spiral is centered on systematic government mistreatment -- including fatal mistreatment -- of minorities.  It isn't centered on economic inequality.  I'd like to see it embrace both.  We are also early on in the spiral.  We are no where close to where the Sons of Liberty went before the Revolution, John Brown before the Civil War, or even the Communists leading up to and during the Great Depression.

In a way, I'm almost encouraged by the spiral.  The corrupt elites aren't apt to give up their self serving system without a threat of violence, a threat that they could lose their position entirely.  I half anticipate that they will give ground in the presence of a viable threat, but will continue to resist calls for change otherwise.  The ballot box might be mighty, but it is clearly not mighty enough.  The voice of the people has be divided and neutralized.  In an abstract and distant way, yes, the Powers that Be need to know that what they have been doing is unacceptable.

This doesn't mean I'm going to go out, buy a bunch of firearms, and try to find the physical address of various 4T posters.  They aren't the enemy.  No matter how much some of them irritate, violence at this point doesn't seem the correct way to end the irritation.

In general, I'd like to see a more nuanced, less partisan, view of the crisis.  Folk on both sides are buying in to much to the unraveling values.  They have decent ideas of what ought to be done.  The have biased false demonized views on what the other faction wants to do.  An awful lot of energy is being spent trying to convince the other guys that they are bad guys.  Good luck with that.  Everyone is equally dedicated to the principle that they are on the side of the angels.  I see no angels here, and few true devils.  I don't see attempts to demonize as overly constructive.  Folks are pretty much immune to seeing themselves as vile demons, no matter what vile image of them you have imagined and might even believe in.

Both sides have seen some stuff that is real and should be pursued.

Is anyone against a small effective government that really helps those who really need help, tries not to interfere too much with people's lives, and is not in the business of enriching those already rich?  Is there are way to pursue virtues rather than try to work up as much misunderstand and rage as possible to those caught under the other jaw of the trap?

I'd like to think so.  At least, I'd like to think we could do better.

Until the Clinton's are politically rejected and discarded like the Bush's were rejected and discarded on the other side, I don't think so. Government checks are powerful incentive to cling to LBJ's vision and the so-called blue values imposed on others. Good luck keeping up when half the country wants out. To put this in a perspective you can understand, you are the EU and I'm Britain.