Let's make fun of Trump, bash him, etc. while we can!

[Bob Butler 54]

(08-25-2016, 07:23 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Hmm...Do I really need to explain why your boiler isn't operating properly or not working at all? Really? Well, maybe I do considering there's a human involved with decisions who owns the property who will be paying the bill. OK. You place science above everything and your life revolves around science. You don't go to bathroom without science or science's permission. Question. If you fall in a hole and can't get out are you going to wait for science or pray for science or call out science to either help or assist you with getting out of the hole. I place God's opinion of me above all. Has very much changed in your community or your life since 1980? If nothing much has changed in your community or in your life since 1980 and you haven't seen much as far as signs of progress, I can see why your view of supply side economics isn't similar to mine. We live and we function in different worlds. I associate just about everything that I've seen as far as community growth, modernization and technological advancement within my community, my state, my nation and my life with supply side economics.

I do a lot of Dungeons and Dragons style role playing games.  I create a heroic character that moves with other player created heroes through an imaginary world run by the game master.  It’s similar to other forms of fiction using the action-adventure style of plot and story.  Bad guy threatens decent people.  Heroes rise to stop bad guy.  The difference is that players are running the various heroes.  They get to make decisions.  One is a participant in the fiction rather than just an observer.  That makes a difference for a lot of folk.

In one particular high epic game, my very influential superhero-air elemental-sorceress was angry at God and his angels.  They weren’t pulling their weight.  Everyone from the US fleet to the armies of the high elves was struggling to suppress  the vile monstrous Great Cthulhu and his minions of ugliness, perversion and insanity.  Where was God?  The game master decided that Talora had enough pull, had sacrificed enough in the cause, was sincere enough in asking the question, that a couple of angels would manifest and answer her question.  She brought with her a few dedicated Christian clerics, as powerful and courageous in their use of magics as she.

As soon as the angels manifest, the clerics went down on their knees, touched foreheads to the ground, and submitted themselves totally in worship.

Talora’s immediate comment to the angels?   “I see your problem.”

In Glenn’s game reality, God couldn’t overtly aid humans.  They must be left alone to develop their strength and learn to solve things themselves.  God couldn’t overtly advise or direct humans.  The must learn to look at the world and make their own choices.  Oh, subtle signs of guidance and covert aid might sometimes be needed and provided, but humans must never, ever come to depend on it.  Thus, while God and his angels were active in fighting Cthulhu, they were nigh on an invisible presence, their aid subtle, hidden, out of sight, but if one knew how to look for it they were doing very much indeed.

This revelation of the Angels according to Glenn echoes my own pursuit of God.  I found God doesn’t communicate clearly.  You seem to believe you hear him, the Pope seems to believe he hears him, and the leaders of ISIS seem to believe they hear him.  Lots of folks believe they hear him.  Clearly they hear different messages.  An awful lot of death and ugliness is done by people listening to God.  A good part of the reason religion is at the bottom of my world view tree is that it is a piss poor way of learning about the world and how to act in the world.

A few messages up, I gave Eric my view on mystic meditation.  It is a good way to reinforce beliefs one wants to become sure of.  I see those who think they are listening to God’s voice as being in much the same place.  They will hear what they want to hear.  You will hear God praising supply side economics.  The pope will hear God calling for charity and love.  ISIS will hear demands for a return to Allah’s most strict Agricultural Age law and tyranny.  Of the three, I’m inclined to believe the Pope is on the right track, but I had in my youth and have no reason to believe now that if God is speaking I will be able to hear him any better than anyone else.

Thus, I turned to observing His creation.  One learns of the world by observing the world.  God speaks through all that exists.  One has to pay attention to His reality, respect it, nurture it, and stop pretending that He will whisper short cuts in the back of one’s head.  Those voices are more apt to be what one wants to hear than what God might be saying.  God isn’t in one’s head.  He is in the World.

You missed one point, or perhaps I wasn’t clear on it.  Science is dominant for me for problems that can be solved cleanly by observing the world, through scientific methods.  Not all problems can be so solved.  Pbrower quite reasonably suggested that science has no values.  I quibbled that science has integrity.  One must look at the world honestly and intensely.  Integrity is important, but Man cannot live by integrity alone.  Love, affection, community, security and so much more are part of Man’s existence.  Valuing science does not make one a Vulcan, devoid of all emotion.  There is more to being human than that.  Thus, when a problem cannot be directly resolved by observation and experiment, one has to solve problems using political, philosophical and religious principles.  Surely you don’t think I disassociate myself from political world views and methods?  I know you aren’t particularly good at listening, but surely you have noticed that I dabble in politics?

So, looking at the world…  At the end of Bush 41’s time in office, the economy was a mess.  I considered this a sign of supply side economic’s failure.  At the end of Bush 43’s time in office, the economy was a huge ugly mess.  I considered this a clear and undoubtable sign of supply side economic’s failure.  As I outlined a few days back, I had a fairly clean economic life.  I had a healthy career and have a comfortable retirement.  My niece and nephew didn’t do so well during their life times thus far dominated by supply side.  My nephew couldn’t afford his own house, and found himself forced into a four generation household.  It has recently become a three generation household, but only through the death of the eldest.  My niece got through college with considerable debt and was unable to find work in her chosen field.  For years she bounced desperately from job to job.  She has only recently got her toe back in the door of her chosen profession.  From all I have heard their experiences are hardly unique.  Such problems are chronic for their generation.

Then there is the analytic side.  Working from a scientific perspective, one should strive to understand the forces working to cause the observed effects.  There are times when entrepreneurs cannot find the capitol to invest in new factories, new jobs, new products.  This can be a genuine crimp on the economy.  In such a case, if the supply of goods is the limit on the economy, supply side stimulus can be useful.  Take money from the poor.  Give it to the rich.  They will invest it in such a way that the entrepreneurs will create products, jobs and cash flow.

At the moment, interest rates are very very low.  The investing class as achieved a very very high division of wealth, holding a huge percentage of the money supply.  It is not particularly difficult to go to Wall Street and raise money by floating new stocks.  Entrepreneurs are having no difficulty funding new projects.  In short, at this particular time, there is absolutely no need at all to take from the poor to give to the rich.  Some supply side stimulus might have been helpful in Reagan’s time, but supply side is not a doctrine that should be applied always and heavily.  It is a doctrine that requires choosing the right time and the right amount.  One can definitely over do it.  The Bushes did overdo it, driving the economy down twice.

There are other doctrines that also require timing and nuance.  If employment and wages are low and the common people don’t have the money to buy goods, demand side stimulus injecting money into main street can be at least as helpful as supply side.  Main Street simply need help getting moving again more than Wall Street does.  Given the current extreme division of wealth, now is far more a time for demand side than supply side.  

Keynes also suggested that stimulus is appropriate during economic hard times, but one should buy down the debt in good times.  While there is clearly a greater need for demand side stimulus than supply side stimulus right now, one could also look at the extremely high debt and perhaps try to avoid either form of stimulus for a time.

That’s my triangle, my simple understanding of the economy, or at least this is as involved as I’d want to try to get on an internet forum.  This post is too long as it is.  One has to be aware of both types of stimulus and Keynes.  It is not a question of selecting which of the three tools for handling the economy is the best and going balls to the wall all out all the time with one of the three.  One has to look at the world.  One has to be aware of what is going on rather than focusing on the voices in the back of one’s head.  One has to be very aware of things like the division of wealth and size of the debt.