Grey Champions and the Election of 2016

[Bob Butler 54]

(05-08-2016, 02:29 PM)Kinser79 Wrote: As for Marxism-Leninism, I'm starting to come to the conclusion that the economic forces that gave rise to it are passing away and as such a new ideology is necessary.  Note that the Class Struggle continues, it is just that it is transforming into a more atomized basis which is likely the result of the conditions of late capitalism and the development of the internet as a basis for global communication.

As such, while much of Marx, Engels, Lenin and Stalin is still very relevant, the left-right dynamic is breaking down and a new political order in the West is taking shape.  That order of course will be the division between cultural libertarians and cultural authoritarians.

I can agree with this.  The 'starting to come to the conclusion' part could be worded stronger.  

I note that Romney recently warned the American People about demagogues, with Trump and Sanders being examples of demagogues.  I'm definitely with you more than Romney.  Trump and Saunders are going after the Establishment.  Trump has had a stronger impact, nigh on destabilizing the Republicans.  However, he seems to me to be working a personality cult thing, using the abundant anger at the main line Republicans more than presenting a true alternate vision.  To me Saunders has a more coherent platform / values set, but he looks to be falling short.  Either way, we've got the Establishment Romney fighting a rearguard action against something or other.  The status quo is becoming more and more recognizable as bankrupt.

As for the core problem of capitalism, yes, I'd kind of like to see Marx's perspective or at least his terminology rehabilitated.  He identified the problems early and clearly.  Since then, implementation problems made his perspective anathema.  He identified the problems, but his results weren't ideal.  Thus, each generation has to identify the same problems using different verbiage.  Eisenhower spoke of the Military Industrial Complex.  The Hippies had trust issues with everyone over thirty.  The Occupy movement spoke of the one percent.  More recently it has become fashionable to speak of division of wealth.  To a great degree, all are railing against the same system of the wealthy, by the wealthy, for the wealthy.  Of all the various systems of verbiage and action attacking the problem, arguably Marx's followers were the most successful in attacking the capitalists (or whatever you want to call them) of their time.  Alas, they replaced them with something unsatisfactory.

The problem is not in identifying capitalism and democracy as practiced currently as flawed.  The problem is building an agreement on something better that can be implemented and that works.  Trump rouses a good deal of emotion.  Sanders talks better policy from my perspective.  Seems like both are apt to fall short.

[Kinser79]

(05-08-2016, 06:46 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: I can agree with this.  The 'starting to come to the conclusion' part could be worded stronger.  

Actually I worded it pretty strongly, well for me. I've said some things of this nature before privately in a more wishy-washy fashion and there was some concerns that I might be losing my grip on reality.

Quote:I note that Romney recently warned the American People about demagogues, with Trump and Sanders being examples of demagogues.

Romney is a milquetoast and that is one of the reasons he lost. He couldn't excite the base and what he offered was the same failed policies of so-called Bush Republicanism. It is interesting to note that today Pat Buchanan (a paleocon) has proclaimed the death of Bush Republicanism.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/article...30497.html

Quote:  I'm definitely with you more than Romney.  Trump and Saunders are going after the Establishment.  Trump has had a stronger impact, nigh on destabilizing the Republicans.

I took my mother out for sushi for mother's day. We both love the shit. Took the boy and the BF with us too. Naturally we discuss politics. I told her that Trump is pressing the reset button on the GOP. What comes after this campaign is likely to be a different creature.

The fact is that I think Trump will be able to cobble together the cultural libertarians into the GOP and keep them there for long enough that the nature of the party will change (if he gets in, barring his health or an assassination I see no reason why he can't do 2 terms, unless he completely effs it up). Should this happen, the Democrats will end up with all the cultural authoritarians, the theocrats, the PC Speech Police, the folks that want to police video games all of them.

Quote:However, he seems to me to be working a personality cult thing, using the abundant anger at the main line Republicans more than presenting a true alternate vision.  To me Saunders has a more coherent platform / values set, but he looks to be falling short.  Either way, we've got the Establishment Romney fighting a rearguard action against something or other.  The status quo is becoming more and more recognizable as bankrupt.

The Status Quo in both parties has been bankrupt for a long time. I think Sanders had difficulties in cobbling together a meme team to unleash memes on the internet (the main form of communication for those under 50), what young people he did have was confined to mostly white college kids. Someone once said something about if one isn't liberal at 20 they have no heart, and if one isn't conservative at 30 he has no brain.

The most important meme that Trump has unleashed is not the Trump Brand (which I think is the Personality Cult thing you're alluding too...I actually would call it branding and in this case he's selling himself and the images of success, America, greatness, and being an alpha/winner) but rather the "cuck" meme, and especially for the Establishment GOP the "Cuckservative". Cuck is a shortening of the word cuckold. It is used metaphorically.

Quote:The problem is not in identifying capitalism and democracy as practiced currently as flawed.  The problem is building an agreement on something better that can be implemented and that works.  Trump rouses a good deal of emotion.  Sanders talks better policy from my perspective.  Seems like both are apt to fall short.

Honestly Trump does have a policy...they are all policies that can be implemented with minimal involvement from congress.

--Fixing the trade. Ending these so-called free trade deals that hurt American workers, depress American Wages, and make America weaker by lessening our economic strength. This is all foreign affairs and the President initiates foreign affairs.

--Tackling Immigration and boarder security. Largely this can be accomplished by enforcing existing laws, and tweaking some of those existing laws. Such as making the fines for being caught hiring illegals much much higher. It would remove those fines from "cost of doing business" to "oh shit better not do that".

--Disentangling from entangling alliances. The President is commander in chief of the armed forces, he can close foreign bases at whim should he want to (none so far have since the Washington consensus is we need those bases for ... reasons). As for alliances, again foreign policy is at the President's initiative.

--Infrastructure. This will require funding from Congress, but some of it can be done through public-private partnerships within the states.

Where there is compromise and deal making is the exact form that accomplishing those task will take. Even if he does win two terms (as I expect him to should he win one--seriously the Dems are running HRC cause they got no body) I still fully expect him to only be able to accomplish much in the first six years, by which time he will be pushing 76 and he'll have to slow down just due to age.

I will expect him to be somewhat of a delegation style president too. So I'm less concerned about Daddy himself and more concerned about the people Daddy hires for his team. Though I'd love to see Milo as press secretary. That would be fun.

I can see it now:

White House Press Conference Room:

Milo stands at the podium.

Milo: Daddy has decided he isn't answering your questions today. I'm going shopping, put your comments in the box.

Milo sashays out of the press conference room.

[pbrower2a]

(05-08-2016, 06:46 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: I note that Romney recently warned the American People about demagogues, with Trump and Sanders being examples of demagogues.  I'm definitely with you more than Romney.  Trump and Saunders are going after the Establishment.  Trump has had a stronger impact, nigh on destabilizing the Republicans.  However, he seems to me to be working a personality cult thing, using the abundant anger at the main line Republicans more than presenting a true alternate vision.  To me Saunders has a more coherent platform / values set, but he looks to be falling short.  Either way, we've got the Establishment Romney fighting a rearguard action against something or other.  The status quo is becoming more and more recognizable as bankrupt.

Donald Trump contradicts himself at will without recognizing that incompatible promises ensures bad results. Bernie Sanders may be telling young Millennial adults exactly what they want to hear -- and may be showing what Millennial politicians will be offering America.

Quote:As for the core problem of capitalism, yes, I'd kind of like to see Marx's perspective or at least his terminology rehabilitated.  He identified the problems early and clearly.  Since then, implementation problems made his perspective anathema.  He identified the problems, but his results weren't ideal.  Thus, each generation has to identify the same problems using different verbiage.  Eisenhower spoke of the Military Industrial Complex.  The Hippies had trust issues with everyone over thirty.  The Occupy movement spoke of the one percent.  More recently it has become fashionable to speak of division of wealth.  To a great degree, all are railing against the same system of the wealthy, by the wealthy, for the wealthy.  Of all the various systems of verbiage and action attacking the problem, arguably Marx's followers were the most successful in attacking the capitalists (or whatever you want to call them) of their time.  Alas, they replaced them with something unsatisfactory.

Marxist terminology? We can all use that. He created much of the language of modern political science. His prescriptions for the way from poverty to plenty have proved very wrong. He may have explained better than anyone else what a world without scarcity is like. Clutter and excess are waste, and not needing those is itself wealth.

Quote:The problem is not in identifying capitalism and democracy as practiced currently as flawed.  The problem is building an agreement on something better that can be implemented and that works.  Trump rouses a good deal of emotion.  Sanders talks better policy from my perspective.  Seems like both are apt to fall short.

Sanders may be the closest thing to a successor of Eugene Debs. At some point Eugene V. Debs may be more relevant than Calvin Coolidge -- even if the capitalist elite prefers someone who lets them indulge the worst tendencies of the capitalist elite with impunity. [/quote]

[Eric the Green]

I predicted even while she was first lady, here on the old T4T forum, that Hillary Clinton would be "the gray champion." Now she has a chance to become it. Why anyone would think Trump is gray champion material, is hard to figure.

---

Milo is cute and he looks like he who shall not be named. Almost a dead ringer, man!

[Bronco80]

(05-05-2016, 07:43 PM)Odin Wrote: On the old forum Kinser mentioned that Trump represents the Jacksonian tradition.

This is a really, really good comparison.  Of course, I also think Andrew Jackson is the worst president ever, so...

And to answer the poll question, no, I don't think Trump will be able to become the GC, barring something truly catastrophic that can't be foreseen.  Hillary Clinton I could see, but as I'm not a huge fan of hers I hope it's not her, either, and that the true GC has yet to come until late in this 4T.

[Kinser79]

(05-14-2016, 04:27 PM)Bronco80 Wrote:

(05-05-2016, 07:43 PM)Odin Wrote: On the old forum Kinser mentioned that Trump represents the Jacksonian tradition.

This is a really, really good comparison.  Of course, I also think Andrew Jackson is the worst president ever, so...

And to answer the poll question, no, I don't think Trump will be able to become the GC, barring something truly catastrophic that can't be foreseen.  Hillary Clinton I could see, but as I'm not a huge fan of hers I hope it's not her, either, and that the true GC has yet to come until late in this 4T.

Hillary cannot be the GC. She does have the right age of course, but she lacks something that is peculiar to GCs that is they call back to an older order from which the new one will be built. "The spirit of their sires..." portion of the myth.

Since Hillary only can harken back at the earliest to the 2T she cannot be the GC. Trump however, has been calling for isolationism, protectionism, and nationalism all of which the US discarded following WW2--and the very things that made the US capable of being the second mover and shaker of the post-war world order.

As to Andy Jackson, I would counter that the worst thing he ever did was not hanging John C. Calhoun. A regret he expressed himself.

[Bronco80]

(05-14-2016, 04:41 PM)Kinser79 Wrote: Hillary cannot be the GC.  She does have the right age of course, but she lacks something that is peculiar to GCs that is they call back to an older order from which the new one will be built.  "The spirit of their sires..." portion of the myth.

Since Hillary only can harken back at the earliest to the 2T she cannot be the GC.  Trump however, has been calling for isolationism, protectionism, and nationalism all of which the US discarded following WW2--and the very things that made the US capable of being the second mover and shaker of the post-war world order.

I hope you're correct, and my brain is cautiously telling me that you will be correct.  The Clintons have always cared about political power more than ideology, though, and I can live with a GC Hillary as long as it's a version of her that pulls her further left.

Quote:As to Andy Jackson, I would counter that the worst thing he ever did was not hanging John C. Calhoun. A regret he expressed himself.

I didn't think I'd find anything else that could compete with the unholy triumvirate of Indian Removal, killing the Bank of the US and starting the spoils system, but you just managed to find it.  Awesome line!

[Kinser79]

(05-14-2016, 04:49 PM)Bronco80 Wrote: I hope you're correct, and my brain is cautiously telling me that you will be correct.  The Clintons have always cared about political power more than ideology, though, and I can live with a GC Hillary as long as it's a version of her that pulls her further left.

If we are to use past behavior as an indication of future behavior HRC will swing right as soon as Sanders is disposed of. And she still wouldn't be the GC anyway, the Whig GC is already known--Bernie Sanders. I expect that should she swing left during the remainder of the Democratic Primaries (which is unlikely) she will immediately swing back to the right for the General.

Quote:I didn't think I'd find anything else that could compete with the unholy triumvirate of Indian Removal, killing the Bank of the US and starting the spoils system, but you just managed to find it.  Awesome line!

I think the problem of the US Bank was making it an issue during his presidency. Martin Van Buren would have likely signed the charter, but the Whigs decided to make it an issue with Jackson--who hated them--and that was a political blunder. As for the Indian Removal, that was a matter of Congress making a law and the President enforcing it. If there is any blame to be had for that, lay it at the feet of the Western Congressmen of the time.

As for John C. Calhoun, nullification is a destructive ideology. Being that the US is a Federal Republic of States, states cannot just ignore laws passed by Congress particularly when those laws are in conformity to the powers granted to Congress of which taxation is one such power. And this is coming from someone who is a strong supporter of the idea of Federalism and letting the States handle all those things not specifically delegated to the Federal Government.

[illwill2020]

I don't see the need for a gray champion but if ever there was one it's probably Bernie Sanders. He spoke of the issues not talked about in media, came from nowhere, and mostly crafted the democratic platform this year.

[MillsT_98]

(07-19-2016, 11:46 PM)illwill2020 Wrote: I don't see the need for a gray champion but if ever there was one it's probably Bernie Sanders. He spoke of the issues not talked about in media, came from nowhere, and mostly crafted the democratic platform this year.

But wouldn't the GC be someone who would eventually be much more prominent than Sanders? I know he had his fun this election but I don't think he will ultimately be nominated by the Democratic Party, let alone become President, and won't have that much prominence later on. And this is assuming the GC is one person.

[Eric the Green]

Long ago here, before she was even a senator, I forecast that Hillary Clinton would be "the grey champion." She has now assumed the role. Of course there are really many grey champions, and there will be others. And we can't depend only on a champion to make our society "great," or on one political office, party or election.

And it's quite clear historically that the GC is here to put the visions of the preceding 2T into effect, not just to restore an old order. Of course, all 2Ts are continuations of as well as expansions on all previous ones!





Keep the dream of the two young brothers; ride that dove, and we can build that Dream with love. And we shall overcome! Save the Country Now!

[Ragnarök_62]

Eric the Green Wrote:Long ago here, before she was even a senator, I forecast that Hillary Clinton would be "the grey champion." She has now assumed the role.

Nice.  Posting while toking.

Quote:Of course there are really many grey champions, and there will be others. And we can't depend only on a champion to make our society "great," or on one political office, party or election.

Yeah, like Sanders and Stein.

Quote:And it's quite clear historically that the GC is here to put the visions of the preceding 2T into effect, not just to restore an old order. Of course, all 2Ts are continuations of as well as expansions on all previous ones!

Except the Civil War.  That was a clusterfuck.

Quote:Keep the dream of the two young brothers; ride that dove, and we can build that Dream with love. And we shall overcome! Save the Country Now!

Pffffftttttt~~~~~~~~~  

It's more like ride that raven.




Rags wants a fast forward/rewind button so he can just speed through 4T's.   They suck suck green donkey dicks. I'd love to press the rewind to 3T or fast forward to 1T.  That would be an awesome invention.

[Skabungus]

Folks. The "Gray Champion" isn't a person, it's a metaphor.

As such Sanders and Trump are representative of the GC, but not the GC. The GC is best understood as all those voices of sage advice telling us the system needs to be overhauled/corrected to bring it back in line with the original vision >>--> a government for and by the people, in a land where everyone gets a fair shot at their piece of the pie, and where everyone can sleep safe at night, possibly without the fear the authorities will shoot them at the next traffic stop.

The GC manifests in many forms, and Sanders seems to have embodied much of it, but I wouldn't look for resolution of the 4T until the next presidential election cycle. The pot is still boiling, but not yet boiled over.

BTW, is simply love ravens. My surname means raven. Heheh. Coming to a battlefield near you!

[David Horn]

(07-21-2016, 12:24 AM)Ragnarök_62 Wrote: ... Rags wants a fast forward/rewind button so he can just speed through 4T's.   They suck suck green donkey dicks. I'd love to press the rewind to 3T or fast forward to 1T.  That would be an awesome invention.

You're an Xer in that regard.  Your Boomer side should want to see the fireworks.

[Ragnarök_62]

(07-21-2016, 06:31 PM)David Horn Wrote: You're an Xer in that regard.  Your Boomer side should want to see the fireworks.

Yeah, cusperdom is a strange place. The attitude changes like Oklahoma weather.

http://nypost.com/2016/07/22/leaked-emai...d-sanders/

https://theintercept.com/2016/07/22/dnc-...ails-show/
http://www.nationalobserver.com/2016/07/...nald-trump

So...  I won't be voting for Hillary since the DNC played dirty pool.
I suppose it's also time for the Democratic party to go off the deep end like the Republican party.  A pox on both parties! I also want a pox on the MIC.

Rag's current mood.

[Ragnarök_62]

(07-21-2016, 07:40 PM)taramarie Wrote: What makes him an xer by wanting to avoid the unpleasantness? What do you think a civic would want? Personally i want to fix it and society be less fragmented, more community orientated, inclusive and happier. Sick of all the screaming and drams. Avoidance would not fix it although i understand why rags would want to avoid it.

Well, taramarie, the first step to fix things to realize what the problems are first hand in a definite manner.

As for the US, we really need to stop all of these wars of choice.  The US can no longer claim the mantle of being all for human rights, freedom, etc.  The US is a surveillance state  that holds citizens and foreign nationals in prisons with no charges in the name of "fighting terrorism". In some prisons, we do torture as well.  You see, "terrorism" is just a methodology of a way to conduct warfare.  One may as well say "islamo-amphibous landing".  The US also treats nation states with double standards. Russia is no worse than Saudi Arabia for example. So wrt foreign policy, yes, we need to scale back or delete NATO because yes, we can't afford anymore. We also need to shut down legions of bases strewn worldwide. In short no more world policeman. Such a policy will in due course destroy us via bankruptcy. The efforts forthwith should go to rebuilding infrastructure [roads, rail, bridges, the power grid, and fast rail.] We'll also need to secure more fresh water by new water infrastructure and recycling waste water. I'd toss the surveillance state and the MIC in an incinerator. The tax system needs to be fixed as well. Just have a x,y income tax. All income , treated the same. You make x , you pay y. The rates can be as progressive as one wishes. Finally, be all means, no more purchasing of elections with money.

 I hope you understand that that is how I'd prefer to "fix things".

[Eric the Green]

(07-21-2016, 12:24 AM)Ragnarök_62 Wrote: Nice.  Posting while toking.

I may talk too loudly, but I do have some prophetic skills

Quote:Yeah, like Sanders and Stein.

Yes they are. They speak of the direction we need to go, and I hope they propel Hillary along to some extent anyway.

Quote:...the Civil War... was a clusterfuck.

No doubt, but it was a typical 4T in most ways. Remember it also includes the 1850s, which is where we are now by analogy. It enacted the ideals from the preceding 2T, by abolishing slavery and instituting reconstruction, from which there was considerable backsliding. But, it was there, and it returned, thanks in part to that king and the two young brothers, and their Dream.

Quote:It's more like ride that raven.

No, the dove is nicer. And it rhymes with love.

Quote:Rags wants a fast forward/rewind button so he can just speed through 4T's.   They suck suck green donkey dicks. I'd love to press the rewind to 3T or fast forward to 1T.  That would be an awesome invention.

David made a good point. Good luck with your invention idea. I have a different one. Let's rewind back before the 3T began, and then just fast forward to the 4T; it would make the 4T go a WHOLE LOT quicker and easier.

Of course, in many ways, that's what we did. The whole 3T is a set of empty years. No culture, no politics; just wasted hours, wasted years and wasted decades, signifying nothing at all. Blank tape! We did it the Richard Nixon way. Erased the tape. It was not only an 18 minute gap; it was a 24-year gap! Get rid of the last 3T; throw it in the ashcan! Total garbage! And reclaim your youth, because we are all entitled to be the same age now that we were in 1984. Nothing happened since, so why should we be charged with any years?

/rant

[Eric the Green]

(07-24-2016, 02:58 AM)taramarie Wrote:

(07-24-2016, 02:51 AM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(07-21-2016, 12:24 AM)Ragnarök_62 Wrote: Nice.  Posting while toking.

I may talk too loudly, but I do have some prophetic skills

Quote:Yeah, like Sanders and Stein.

Yes they are. They speak of the direction we need to go, and I hope they propel Hillary along to some extent anyway.

Quote:...the Civil War... was a clusterfuck.

No doubt, but it was a typical 4T in most ways. Remember it also includes the 1850s, which is where we are now by analogy. It enacted the ideals from the preceding 2T, by abolishing slavery and instituting reconstruction, from which there was considerable backsliding. But, it was there, and it returned, thanks in part to that king and the two young brothers, and their Dream.

Quote:It's more like ride that raven.

No, the dove is nicer. And it rhymes with love.

Quote:Rags wants a fast forward/rewind button so he can just speed through 4T's.   They suck suck green donkey dicks. I'd love to press the rewind to 3T or fast forward to 1T.  That would be an awesome invention.

David made a good point. Good luck with your invention idea. I have a different one. Let's rewind back before the 3T began, and then just fast forward to the 4T; it would make the 4T go a WHOLE LOT quicker and easier.

Of course, in many ways, that's what we did. The whole 3T is a set of empty years. No culture, no politics; just wasted hours, wasted years and wasted decades, signifying nothing at all. Blank tape! We did it the Richard Nixon way. Erased the tape. It was not only an 18 minute gap; it was a 24-year gap! Get rid of the last 3T; throw it in the ashcan! Total garbage! And reclaim your youth, because we are all entitled to be the same age now that we were in 1984. Nothing happened since, so why should we be charged with any years?

/rant

I was born in the 3T and experienced the culture so i beg to differ.

I do not think that will ever happen with those of us who enjoyed that era as well as being influenced by that era. I think you interpret the 3T differently to how an xer does and how a millie does.

The last part i highlighted made me laugh when you say we ALL should be entitled to be the same age we were in 84. Check out my sig for why i laughed. No thanks for me!

You don't want to be "born again"?

Seriously, you can differ. I have made my statement and of course you saying that you differ does not change it. You guys can fill in the gaps in my opinion and knowledge, as you are doing on that thread. And of course you can't read between the lines of my statement; I'm exaggerating to make a point and express my feelings. So you feel you have to chime in. Yes there are some good things in all years. But for the most part, culture sucked (with the exceptions I have mentioned), and politics sucked, and the two were related. "We need to skip the 3T" means that the Reagan ideology which has dominated and totally hand cuffed our society, IS what is making our 4T suck. Nothing else but our 3T is what makes our 4T suck now.

When you say you can't stand The Beatles and refuse to consider or listen to any of their songs, you are doing the same thing you accuse me of doing when I say the whole 3T sucks. There's quite a bit of variation in their sound and music; it's not all the same; that song was a Paul solo version anyway. If you think you haven't missed a lot of what the 2T offered, and if you think it's just a generational thing or subjective taste etc., you are very much mistaken, and very much missing out. But, I am posting it just because I enjoy posting it, and just in case some people enjoy it. I know I need to make youtube playlists; I haven't gotten around to it.

I do check in to the 3T thread to see if there's something I may have missed. Usually there isn't, but sometimes there is. I'm sure there's much to discover and learn about, at least from somewhere, if not in that thread. And I am posting some of what I consider valuable from the 3T years there. I don't gather that you have heard any of what I posted. I suspect though that you know even less about that 3T music than you know about 2T rock, pop and folk. For most people, that's true.

[Eric the Green]

(07-24-2016, 04:01 AM)taramarie Wrote: No i don't. I was severely bullied, molested and smothered. I do not want to go through that again. As to how you interpret being born again as i have never gone through that transformation ......well it is like any experience. If you have not experienced it you do not know what to expect.

Well let's see. Turning the clock back to 1984 and erasing the 3T, just means we are just as we are today, but without all the lousy stuff from the 3T, and we can erase all our years, but if you're already under 30, you don't have to erase as many years.

Quote:Politics did suck, (other than laws that protected us) but for my generation regarding the culture (i can only speak for how we interpreted it) it didn't. It was alive and wonderful in comparison to these dark days.

You can enjoy your girl pop and boybands and I know it's fun and cheerful and all; just don't expect high-minded cultural "elitists" and connoisseurs like me to agree. Most critics and listeners agree that the pop music these days (like "Happy" for example) is lighter and brighter and more uplifting than the cynical noise and ennui of most 3T stuff. That's the historical pattern of 4Ts, and it's what the authors of T4T predicted.

Quote:You are assuming i have not listened to their songs. I have sat through a hell of a lot of their songs and it still is god awful to me.

You listened to Paul sing Here There and Everywhere on the other thread, then? You didn't just make your post that it's not for you?

The best songs like that one are timeless. They do not depend on who you are, or when you grew up. Such songs were created in the 2T a lot more frequently than in the realm of 3T American pop.

Quote:As I was immersed in and shaped by what I and my cohort enjoyed that is what i have fond memories of. I heard xer grunge and rap and disliked most of it. I cannot connect with it and it also did not shape me. I found that clip of the man playing the guitar boring. Difference is i do not slam a whole turning for certain songs i do not like.

Right; that's why I mention the exceptions. And the same applies to you about the entire output of a particular artist like The Beatles.

Quote: As to whether i know even less about that 3T music than 2T rock pop and folk you would be surprised matey but i actually equally do not know much about either. In fact your 2T music, the majority of it is alien to me. Not even my mother plays it. I at least heard grunge and rap when i was a kid. I just was not fussed on it.

It's new to you; that's the point. There's much to discover. It's not alien; just unfamiliar. You can discover it if you choose to. I have filtered out the bad songs of the 2T that most media focuses on, and left the best stuff for you There's plenty of good and bad stuff in all the eras; but for the 3T you have to mostly look beyond the mainstream American pop to find the good stuff. At least if you're not 13 and enjoying boybands and sexy girl pop in the meantime. Nothing wrong with that; but art and music have a lot more potential than that. People like me did not find that higher potential in grunge, pop, rap, punk, metal etc.

[Eric the Green]

(07-24-2016, 04:42 AM)taramarie Wrote: Eric, I think we need to understand each other before we talk more about how we interpret eras. I am a MEMORY HARMONY person. That is vital info for you as to why I am so fond of things you dismiss and possibly why we also misread each other. For other reasons also. Anyway I have a double shift tomorrow (my holiday is over) so I will show you this video and let you put the pieces together as to my character. I believe you are my total opposite. Which would explain a lot.

No, that does not fit. I am about equal F and T, and also I. You claim to seek harmony in your social environment, but you are as contentious as me or anyone else here. Just as you claim to understand me, and that I don't understand you. The same applies to you equally. Inner impressions and memory are of course very important to me. That's why the music I like is so full of it, and yet you do not hear it. And do not be deceived that you or anyone else fit any type to a T.