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(05-16-2016, 11:06 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: (05-16-2016, 11:29 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: (05-16-2016, 09:53 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: Trump: Divide et impera is his idea of how to handle ethnic and religious difference in America. Such is for swine, and it usually implodes.
Quite so. I just hope that after Republicans warm up to having a demogogue and race-baiter as their standard bearer, that Democrats warm up to have Hillary Clinton as theirs. She is not corrupt or untrustworthy, as the propaganda against her claims. People need to get behind her and keep the mad dog out of the Big House. I don't want a president who sends everyone he doesn't like to Guantanamo Bay and tortures the families of our enemies. He is a loose cannon and we don't know what we're getting if Americans are fool enough to elect this guy. But then, Americans are fools whenever they vote Republican today.
The Republican Party now has a Frankenstein monster. If one wants a cause, then it lies in a quest for ideological purity without care for integrity. The Establishment had some subtlety in its use of code words; the masses have little use for subtlety. The masses want its bigotry raw. A Presidential nominee who speaks of prosecuting his opponent in the general election sets a dangerous example that could well tempt his successors -- whether Democrats or Republicans.
Trump has many problems, but ideological purity is not one of them. That would have better fit Cruz, but he is gone for now.
… whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things. Phil 4:8 (ESV)
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05-17-2016, 12:07 PM
(This post was last modified: 05-17-2016, 12:14 PM by Cynic Hero '86.)
(05-16-2016, 11:29 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: (05-16-2016, 09:53 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: Trump: Divide et impera is his idea of how to handle ethnic and religious difference in America. Such is for swine, and it usually implodes.
Quite so. I just hope that after Republicans warm up to having a demogogue and race-baiter as their standard bearer, that Democrats warm up to have Hillary Clinton as theirs. She is not corrupt or untrustworthy, as the propaganda against her claims. People need to get behind her and keep the mad dog out of the Big House. I don't want a president who sends everyone he doesn't like to Guantanamo Bay and tortures the families of our enemies. He is a loose cannon and we don't know what we're getting if Americans are fool enough to elect this guy. But then, Americans are fools whenever they vote Republican today.
Xers and Millies are tired of establishment creatures telling them how to live. We are tired of establishment career politicians (mostly boomers) telling us that things like Mass purges, economic planning in the form of "multi-year" plans and large-scale militarization are bad things. Russia and China are doing much better internally than us because they shut up their wide eyed idealists at Tienanmen in 1989 in China's case and by state consolidation in Russia in the 2000s, thus preserving masculine values in those countries. Because the do-gooders here in america have done much more damage, Trump would have to carry out extensive restorations, but masculine values and the natural order of things will in the end prevail.
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(05-17-2016, 09:17 AM)Anthony 58 Wrote: You mean like the near full employment (1.9% jobless rate) we had in 1926 - two years after we essentially cut of all immigration?
Lets put it this way, the abortion rate falls when women can take care of their children. Evidence for this concept exists in decline of abortion rates in the 1990s under Bill Clinton who is "pro-choice". Furthermore full employment caused demand pull rises in wages, which will deal with liberal whingning about "herr the minimum wage..." which is really a issue for the several states.
(05-17-2016, 11:34 AM)radind Wrote: Trump has many problems, but ideological purity is not one of them. That would have better fit Cruz, but he is gone for now.
Cruz is pretty much gone permanently. If he ever tries to make a come back the Democrats have an issue to hit him with--the fact he isn't a natural born citizen. Unlike McCain who was born in the Canal Zone, at the time a US administered territory, to a Military father and citizen mother, Cruz merely has a citizen mother.
The founding fathers wanted natural born citizens as president precisely because they didn't want some jack off from England or some other place coming in and messing the country up.
All of that said, even if Cruz were a natural born citizen he is otherwise objectionable.
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(05-17-2016, 12:07 PM)Cynic Hero Wrote: (05-16-2016, 11:29 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: (05-16-2016, 09:53 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: Trump: Divide et impera is his idea of how to handle ethnic and religious difference in America. Such is for swine, and it usually implodes.
Quite so. I just hope that after Republicans warm up to having a demogogue and race-baiter as their standard bearer, that Democrats warm up to have Hillary Clinton as theirs. She is not corrupt or untrustworthy, as the propaganda against her claims. People need to get behind her and keep the mad dog out of the Big House. I don't want a president who sends everyone he doesn't like to Guantanamo Bay and tortures the families of our enemies. He is a loose cannon and we don't know what we're getting if Americans are fool enough to elect this guy. But then, Americans are fools whenever they vote Republican today.
Xers and Millies are tired of establishment creatures telling them how to live. We are tired of establishment career politicians (mostly boomers) telling us that things like Mass purges, economic planning in the form of "multi-year" plans and large-scale militarization are bad things. Russia and China are doing much better internally than us because they shut up their wide eyed idealists at Tienanmen in 1989 in China's case and by state consolidation in Russia in the 2000s, thus preserving masculine values in those countries. Because the do-gooders here in america have done much more damage, Trump would have to carry out extensive restorations, but masculine values and the natural order of things will in the end prevail.
How can anyone praise the brutality of Chinese or Russian leadership?
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated Communist but instead the people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists -- Hannah Arendt.
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(05-06-2016, 02:56 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: Not that there is anything wrong with the above discussion, but where is the turning theory? Do we want to keep political stuff built around the red-blue memes separate from stuff built around turning theory?
If it changes the nature of one of the major Parties by knocking out its "Establishment" figures permanently, then it reshapes American political life for a couple of decades. It could be that Donald Trump reflects the bankruptcy of the "Establishment" Republicans who offered the lure of social reaction in return for severe inequality.
We need remember that Donald Trump as President is a huge change in direction for America, one that will shake much of our common knowledge about American politics, perhaps permanently. That is one way a 4T works. A huge part of the political life of America can be rendered irrelevant for a very long time -- or can be limited to a few 'safe' zones with the new paradigm established everywhere else, like some machine-boss cities and the Deep South for most of the sixty years between Reconstruction and the rise of FDR. No prior President can serve as a model for Trump. It is also possible that he would be an absolute disaster as President. Stories in the media already have Donald Trump connected to a mobster who operated a pump-and-dump stock fraud.
Good people steer clear of criminals. Criminals to them are like devils -- entities that can do only harm.
On the other side, should Hillary Clinton be a one-term President and "Establishment" Republicans return to power in 2020, then nothing has truly changed since 2008, ad we are back in the 3T until the economy collapses or we have a military or diplomatic debacle. Imagine an Establishment Republican being in place when a 4T is resolved, and America has a new covenant in which Big Business has rights but few responsibilities and workers have responsibilities but few rights in the name of progress. Profit is the sole measure of progress, is it not, in such an order?
This 4T is far from resolved. Whoever is in charge at the end of the Crisis is likely to be seen as extremely pivotal in American history -- like George Washington, Abraham Lincoln, or Franklin Roosevelt. Know well -- if we really mess up the pivotal figure could be some senior military officer, not an American, dictating terms in the White House.
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated Communist but instead the people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists -- Hannah Arendt.
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(05-17-2016, 08:42 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: (05-06-2016, 02:56 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: Not that there is anything wrong with the above discussion, but where is the turning theory? Do we want to keep political stuff built around the red-blue memes separate from stuff built around turning theory?
If it changes the nature of one of the major Parties by knocking out its "Establishment" figures permanently, then it reshapes American political life for a couple of decades. It could be that Donald Trump reflects the bankruptcy of the "Establishment" Republicans who offered the lure of social reaction in return for severe inequality.
We need remember that Donald Trump as President is a huge change in direction for America, one that will shake much of our common knowledge about American politics, perhaps permanently. That is one way a 4T works. A huge part of the political life of America can be rendered irrelevant for a very long time -- or can be limited to a few 'safe' zones with the new paradigm established everywhere else, like some machine-boss cities and the Deep South for most of the sixty years between Reconstruction and the rise of FDR. No prior President can serve as a model for Trump. It is also possible that he would be an absolute disaster as President. Stories in the media already have Donald Trump connected to a mobster who operated a pump-and-dump stock fraud.
Good people steer clear of criminals. Criminals to them are like devils -- entities that can do only harm.
On the other side, should Hillary Clinton be a one-term President and "Establishment" Republicans return to power in 2020, then nothing has truly changed since 2008, ad we are back in the 3T until the economy collapses or we have a military or diplomatic debacle. Imagine an Establishment Republican being in place when a 4T is resolved, and America has a new covenant in which Big Business has rights but few responsibilities and workers have responsibilities but few rights in the name of progress. Profit is the sole measure of progress, is it not, in such an order?
This 4T is far from resolved. Whoever is in charge at the end of the Crisis is likely to be seen as extremely pivotal in American history -- like George Washington, Abraham Lincoln, or Franklin Roosevelt. Know well -- if we really mess up the pivotal figure could be some senior military officer, not an American, dictating terms in the White House.
When Bob wrote that this thread was in the theory related politics section, I've since mover it.
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(05-17-2016, 08:42 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: If it changes the nature of one of the major Parties by knocking out its "Establishment" figures permanently, then it reshapes American political life for a couple of decades. It could be that Donald Trump reflects the bankruptcy of the "Establishment" Republicans who offered the lure of social reaction in return for severe inequality.
Except for one problem you have with "reflection" argument. Donald Trump is not an Establishment Republican, and furthermore those Establishment types hate him. They are only just now genuflecting in the hopes that they can maintain power in the GOP and stave off the realignment of the party for a few more years. They will fail in this because Nationalism, Protectionism, and Isolationism resonate with the Base, a base he's expanding.
Quote:We need remember that Donald Trump as President is a huge change in direction for America, one that will shake much of our common knowledge about American politics, perhaps permanently. That is one way a 4T works. A huge part of the political life of America can be rendered irrelevant for a very long time -- or can be limited to a few 'safe' zones with the new paradigm established everywhere else, like some machine-boss cities and the Deep South for most of the sixty years between Reconstruction and the rise of FDR. No prior President can serve as a model for Trump. It is also possible that he would be an absolute disaster as President. Stories in the media already have Donald Trump connected to a mobster who operated a pump-and-dump stock fraud.
I've read that "story" it was low on evidence and high on speculation. Considering that he's involved in construction in NYC and NJ I'd be more surprised if he didn't know "made men". That being said, I do agree his presidency will be radically different than anything else that came before. So much so that it will result in a Fourth Republic
Quote:Good people steer clear of criminals. Criminals to them are like devils -- entities that can do only harm.
Depends on what one means by criminal. An ax murderer may indeed be a devil, your random pot smoking teenager is not. With so many different laws in place just about everyone is a criminal of some sort these days.
Quote:On the other side, should Hillary Clinton be a one-term President and "Establishment" Republicans return to power in 2020, then nothing has truly changed since 2008, ad we are back in the 3T until the economy collapses or we have a military or diplomatic debacle. Imagine an Establishment Republican being in place when a 4T is resolved, and America has a new covenant in which Big Business has rights but few responsibilities and workers have responsibilities but few rights in the name of progress. Profit is the sole measure of progress, is it not, in such an order?
Establishment Republicans won't be coming back. Primaries do matter you know.
Quote:This 4T is far from resolved. Whoever is in charge at the end of the Crisis is likely to be seen as extremely pivotal in American history -- like George Washington, Abraham Lincoln, or Franklin Roosevelt. Know well -- if we really mess up the pivotal figure could be some senior military officer, not an American, dictating terms in the White House.
Sound like an argument to not elect someone who is a known warmonger to me.
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05-18-2016, 06:40 AM
(This post was last modified: 05-18-2016, 07:00 AM by pbrower2a.)
(05-18-2016, 05:08 AM)Kinser79 Wrote: (05-17-2016, 08:42 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: If it changes the nature of one of the major Parties by knocking out its "Establishment" figures permanently, then it reshapes American political life for a couple of decades. It could be that Donald Trump reflects the bankruptcy of the "Establishment" Republicans who offered the lure of social reaction in return for severe inequality.
Except for one problem you have with "reflection" argument. Donald Trump is not an Establishment Republican, and furthermore those Establishment types hate him. They are only just now genuflecting in the hopes that they can maintain power in the GOP and stave off the realignment of the party for a few more years. They will fail in this because Nationalism, Protectionism, and Isolationism resonate with the Base, a base he's expanding.
Quote:We need remember that Donald Trump as President is a huge change in direction for America, one that will shake much of our common knowledge about American politics, perhaps permanently. That is one way a 4T works. A huge part of the political life of America can be rendered irrelevant for a very long time -- or can be limited to a few 'safe' zones with the new paradigm established everywhere else, like some machine-boss cities and the Deep South for most of the sixty years between Reconstruction and the rise of FDR. No prior President can serve as a model for Trump. It is also possible that he would be an absolute disaster as President. Stories in the media already have Donald Trump connected to a mobster who operated a pump-and-dump stock fraud.
I've read that "story" it was low on evidence and high on speculation. Considering that he's involved in construction in NYC and NJ I'd be more surprised if he didn't know "made men". That being said, I do agree his presidency will be radically different than anything else that came before. So much so that it will result in a Fourth Republic
Quote:Good people steer clear of criminals. Criminals to them are like devils -- entities that can do only harm.
Depends on what one means by criminal. An ax murderer may indeed be a devil, your random pot smoking teenager is not. With so many different laws in place just about everyone is a criminal of some sort these days.
Quote:On the other side, should Hillary Clinton be a one-term President and "Establishment" Republicans return to power in 2020, then nothing has truly changed since 2008, ad we are back in the 3T until the economy collapses or we have a military or diplomatic debacle. Imagine an Establishment Republican being in place when a 4T is resolved, and America has a new covenant in which Big Business has rights but few responsibilities and workers have responsibilities but few rights in the name of progress. Profit is the sole measure of progress, is it not, in such an order?
Establishment Republicans won't be coming back. Primaries do matter you know.
Quote:This 4T is far from resolved. Whoever is in charge at the end of the Crisis is likely to be seen as extremely pivotal in American history -- like George Washington, Abraham Lincoln, or Franklin Roosevelt. Know well -- if we really mess up the pivotal figure could be some senior military officer, not an American, dictating terms in the White House.
Sound like an argument to not elect someone who is a known warmonger to me.
1. On "Establishment" Republicans:
They created the opening for a Frankenstein monster in Donald Trump. They made promises that in return for some hard sacrifices by white working people that those white working people would get a "Christian and Corporate" America, one of economic hardships but the imposition of fundamentalist Protestant values upon secular and liberal types. They got the "Corporate" part of eviscerated unions (unions are the only institutions that working-class adults can find as allies in labor-management relations and tax cuts for the super-rich that eventually must be paid for by higher taxes on everyone else.
They have created the potential for a populist backlash. The states most amenable to populist appeals have typically been in the South -- at the right times. The 1890s (William Jennings Bryan), the 1930s (New Deal), and 1970s (the new-post-segregation South).
2. on the Russian mobster:
A pump-and-dump scheme is one of the most destructive of white-collar crimes because it turns capital into $#!+. That is how large-scale embezzlement, the other classic white-collar crime, works. Do you really think that scammers and schemers invest in job-creating activities? hardly. They fritter away their ill-gotten loot on luxurious waste. The normal businessman has good cause to invest in a non-failing business to keep it growing and modernizing, adapting to changing reality. The scammer or schemer tries to live large. After all, it is only a matter of time before the FBI, IRS, SEC, Postal Inspection Service, or some other federal agency catches up to him. Then comes an end to the monogrammed shirts, the high-stakes gambling, the stays at expensive resorts, the single-malt scotch, and whores.
Note that Donald Trump has been making loud appeals to anti-immigrant sentiments, especially toward Latino immigrants. Someone who takes a job in a sweat-shop meat-processing plant or does gardening work cheaply doesn't quite seem the threat that some foreign mobster does. Practically nobody on the liberal side of the spectrum defends criminal aliens.
Any involvement of any politician with gangsters of any kind is itself discreditable.
3. There are two ways to get war. One is to be the aggressor; one is to be an appeaser. Aggressors ultimately discredit an appeaser, and after Chamberlain one might end up with Churchill. Churchill? For him the war was already in place, and there was no way out except for victory.
Few politicians can promise peace and get away with the promise. Someone might do something stupid and bring war. Anyone who promises that he can get a deal with North Korea is a fool. If there is any such deal, then it is with China and Russia, countries at risk from overflights of North Korean missiles that could reach the United States except for Hawaii. I am not going to speculate on what the Obama Administration has done in secret diplomacy.
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated Communist but instead the people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists -- Hannah Arendt.
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(05-17-2016, 08:42 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: (05-06-2016, 02:56 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: Not that there is anything wrong with the above discussion, but where is the turning theory? Do we want to keep political stuff built around the red-blue memes separate from stuff built around turning theory?
If it changes the nature of one of the major Parties by knocking out its "Establishment" figures permanently, then it reshapes American political life for a couple of decades. It could be that Donald Trump reflects the bankruptcy of the "Establishment" Republicans who offered the lure of social reaction in return for severe inequality.
We need remember that Donald Trump as President is a huge change in direction for America, one that will shake much of our common knowledge about American politics, perhaps permanently. That is one way a 4T works. A huge part of the political life of America can be rendered irrelevant for a very long time -- or can be limited to a few 'safe' zones with the new paradigm established everywhere else, like some machine-boss cities and the Deep South for most of the sixty years between Reconstruction and the rise of FDR. No prior President can serve as a model for Trump. It is also possible that he would be an absolute disaster as President. Stories in the media already have Donald Trump connected to a mobster who operated a pump-and-dump stock fraud.
Good people steer clear of criminals. Criminals to them are like devils -- entities that can do only harm.
On the other side, should Hillary Clinton be a one-term President and "Establishment" Republicans return to power in 2020, then nothing has truly changed since 2008, ad we are back in the 3T until the economy collapses or we have a military or diplomatic debacle. Imagine an Establishment Republican being in place when a 4T is resolved, and America has a new covenant in which Big Business has rights but few responsibilities and workers have responsibilities but few rights in the name of progress. Profit is the sole measure of progress, is it not, in such an order?
This 4T is far from resolved. Whoever is in charge at the end of the Crisis is likely to be seen as extremely pivotal in American history -- like George Washington, Abraham Lincoln, or Franklin Roosevelt. Know well -- if we really mess up the pivotal figure could be some senior military officer, not an American, dictating terms in the White House.
If stories in the media become the criteria, then no one could ever be elected. We could choose by lottery from the non-felon citizens and just take our chances.
… whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things. Phil 4:8 (ESV)
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(05-18-2016, 10:54 AM)radind Wrote: If stories in the media become the criteria, then no one could ever be elected. We could choose by lottery from the non-felon citizens and just take our chances.
There are worse ways to pick officials. But then again, as I've posted elsewhere, the older I get the more I start to think that the francise and elected office should be limited to those who've served in the armed services a la Starship Troopers style.
In before Odin accuses me of being a fascist/right wing authoritarian/or some other leftist bugbear.
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(05-18-2016, 06:40 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: 1. On "Establishment" Republicans:
They created the opening for a Frankenstein monster in Donald Trump. They made promises that in return for some hard sacrifices by white working people that those white working people would get a "Christian and Corporate" America, one of economic hardships but the imposition of fundamentalist Protestant values upon secular and liberal types. They got the "Corporate" part of eviscerated unions (unions are the only institutions that working-class adults can find as allies in labor-management relations and tax cuts for the super-rich that eventually must be paid for by higher taxes on everyone else.
They have created the potential for a populist backlash. The states most amenable to populist appeals have typically been in the South -- at the right times. The 1890s (William Jennings Bryan), the 1930s (New Deal), and 1970s (the new-post-segregation South).
William Jennings Bryan's main support base came from Plains States Farmers. The South went for him because he wasn't a Republican. FDR ran to the right of Hoover, and then swung left after election. The South stayed solid for him, but they would have voted for the Democrat even if they ran Hoover.
Quote: 2. on the Russian mobster:
A pump-and-dump scheme is one of the most destructive of white-collar crimes because it turns capital into $#!+. That is how large-scale embezzlement, the other classic white-collar crime, works. Do you really think that scammers and schemers invest in job-creating activities? hardly. They fritter away their ill-gotten loot on luxurious waste. The normal businessman has good cause to invest in a non-failing business to keep it growing and modernizing, adapting to changing reality. The scammer or schemer tries to live large. After all, it is only a matter of time before the FBI, IRS, SEC, Postal Inspection Service, or some other federal agency catches up to him. Then comes an end to the monogrammed shirts, the high-stakes gambling, the stays at expensive resorts, the single-malt scotch, and whores.
I asked for evidence...not a screed.
Quote:Note that Donald Trump has been making loud appeals to anti-immigrant sentiments, especially toward Latino immigrants. Someone who takes a job in a sweat-shop meat-processing plant or does gardening work cheaply doesn't quite seem the threat that some foreign mobster does. Practically nobody on the liberal side of the spectrum defends criminal aliens.
Daddy has not said anything about Latinos in particular. That is a lie from the PC Brigade. He has said that he will enforce our laws on immigration and that means arresting and deporting those who cross the border illegally. And yes it is a crime to be in the country without permission or citizenship. So if the measure of being a criminal is breaking laws, then yes those "immigrants" are indeed criminals.
Again, I'm going to ask for evidence. Should you provide yet an other screed I'll take that to mean you don't have any are are talking out of your rectum. Not that that would be anything new.
Quote:Any involvement of any politician with gangsters of any kind is itself discreditable.
In that case no one should hold office in the states of New York, New Jersey, or Illinois.
Quote:3. There are two ways to get war. One is to be the aggressor; one is to be an appeaser. Aggressors ultimately discredit an appeaser, and after Chamberlain one might end up with Churchill. Churchill? For him the war was already in place, and there was no way out except for victory.
Non Sequitur. The only candidate who can possibly be an aggessor in foreign affairs is HRC.
Quote:Few politicians can promise peace and get away with the promise. Someone might do something stupid and bring war. Anyone who promises that he can get a deal with North Korea is a fool. If there is any such deal, then it is with China and Russia, countries at risk from overflights of North Korean missiles that could reach the United States except for Hawaii. I am not going to speculate on what the Obama Administration has done in secret diplomacy.
It is pretty simple. Don't go looking for wars and you might just not find them. If someone attacks the US you crush them. Other than that minding our own business would go a long way to bringing more peace and harmony to the world. There is a reason why more people internationally view the US as a threat than view it as a benefactor. Neo-conservatism might have something to do with that and only one Neo-Con is still running. I'll let you guess who it is. I'll give you a clue though she's been anointed as the nominee by the (un-)Democratic Party.
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(05-18-2016, 12:55 PM)Kinser79 Wrote: Daddy has not said anything about Latinos in particular. That is a lie from the PC Brigade. He has said that he will enforce our laws on immigration and that means arresting and deporting those who cross the border illegally. And yes it is a crime to be in the country without permission or citizenship. So if the measure of being a criminal is breaking laws, then yes those "immigrants" are indeed criminals.
Again, I'm going to ask for evidence. Should you provide yet an other screed I'll take that to mean you don't have any are are talking out of your rectum. Not that that would be anything new.
Here ya go -
Quote:Sadly, the overwhelming amount of violent crime in our major cities is committed by blacks and hispanics-a tough subject-must be discussed.
4:05 AM - 5 Jun 2013
Quote:Trump told Ramos: “Go back to Univision.” On the way out a Trump supporter confronted the journalist, a U.S. Citizen, and said: “You were very rude. It’s not about you. Get out of my country.”
Quote:Two brothers reportedly attacked a 58-year-old Hispanic homeless man in Boston, breaking his nose and urinating on him, in mid-August. They alegedly told police they targeted the man because of his ethnicity and added, “Donald Trump was right, all these illegals need to be deported.” After the GOP candidate was told of the attack, instead of denouncing the act Trump said -
Quote: “I will say that people who are following me are very passionate. They love this country and they want this country to be great again. They are passionate.”
Quote:"@RobHeilbron: @realDonaldTrump #JebBush has to like the Mexican Illegals because of his wife."
Quote:"And the Mexican government is much smarter, much sharper, much more cunning."
Trump added: "They send the bad ones over, because they don't want to pay for them, they don't want to take care of them. Why should they, when the stupid leaders of the United States will do it for 'me?"
Quote:When Mexico sends its people, they’re not sending their best. They’re not sending you. They’re not sending you. They’re sending people that have lots of problems, and they’re bringing those problems with us. They’re bringing drugs. They’re bringing crime. They’re rapists. And some, I assume, are good people.
Is that enough for you Kinser, or do you want to talk a tad more out of your ass first?
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(05-18-2016, 01:20 PM)playwrite Wrote: (05-18-2016, 12:55 PM)Kinser79 Wrote: Daddy has not said anything about Latinos in particular. That is a lie from the PC Brigade. He has said that he will enforce our laws on immigration and that means arresting and deporting those who cross the border illegally. And yes it is a crime to be in the country without permission or citizenship. So if the measure of being a criminal is breaking laws, then yes those "immigrants" are indeed criminals.
Again, I'm going to ask for evidence. Should you provide yet an other screed I'll take that to mean you don't have any are are talking out of your rectum. Not that that would be anything new.
Here ya go -
Quote:Sadly, the overwhelming amount of violent crime in our major cities is committed by blacks and hispanics-a tough subject-must be discussed.
4:05 AM - 5 Jun 2013
Quote:Trump told Ramos: “Go back to Univision.” On the way out a Trump supporter confronted the journalist, a U.S. Citizen, and said: “You were very rude. It’s not about you. Get out of my country.”
Quote:Two brothers reportedly attacked a 58-year-old Hispanic homeless man in Boston, breaking his nose and urinating on him, in mid-August. They alegedly told police they targeted the man because of his ethnicity and added, “Donald Trump was right, all these illegals need to be deported.” After the GOP candidate was told of the attack, instead of denouncing the act Trump said -
Quote: “I will say that people who are following me are very passionate. They love this country and they want this country to be great again. They are passionate.”
Quote:"@RobHeilbron: @realDonaldTrump #JebBush has to like the Mexican Illegals because of his wife."
Quote:"And the Mexican government is much smarter, much sharper, much more cunning."
Trump added: "They send the bad ones over, because they don't want to pay for them, they don't want to take care of them. Why should they, when the stupid leaders of the United States will do it for 'me?"
Quote:When Mexico sends its people, they’re not sending their best. They’re not sending you. They’re not sending you. They’re sending people that have lots of problems, and they’re bringing those problems with us. They’re bringing drugs. They’re bringing crime. They’re rapists. And some, I assume, are good people.
Is that enough for you Kinser, or do you want to talk a tad more out of your ass first?
No. Disjointed, undocumented quotes do not constitute evidence. If I can't examine your source myself (IE because it is cited) then it does not constitute evidence.
And even if all these things were true...my mind was made up before the election started. Any Republican is better than Clinton. And that is with "normal election" being the default setting.
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Too bad the editors wouldn't let him finish the title - with the words "As We Know It"
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/new...y-20160518
"These, and many other matters which might be noticed, add a volume of unofficial declarations to the mass of organic utterances that this is a Christian nation" - Justice David Brewer, Church of the Holy Trinity v. United States, 1892
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My next observation about Donald Trump.
It is often said by my brethren from the right that we should “run government like a business,” and thereby it would be a vast improvement on how it currently runs.
It happens that during part of my career I WAS a business man. I was general manager and vice president of our enterprise.
So what? Well, I can tell you from personal experience that being “the man” makes things potentially very efficient. Businesses are, in general, NOT democracies. While it often benefits the business to have relatively happy, productive, highly-motivated employees, and while it often benefits the business to take the employees’ opinions into account, the final decisions are up to “the man.” (Or “the woman, of course!)
I can tell you from personal experience that this is a heady environment. It’s easy to get used to. One quickly becomes an authoritarian. You yell “Jump!” Everyone within earshot replies, “How High?!” If corrective action is needed within the enterprise, “the man” decides what it will be, whose head gets to roll, which consultant needs to be brought in, what of their recommendations will be implemented.
The Donald has spent his whole life in such an environment. And an extreme example of that! It is said that everyone has a boss. Well, The Donald has never had a boss, except possibly his father. It has always and only been HIS vision, goals, processes that have taken place within his enterprises.
So how does government differ? In a thousand ways. If one studies organization management, one discovers that there are many types. Not “right” or “wrong” types, just different types. Some are better than others, depending on the needs and goals of the stakeholders. My experience tells me that what works in an autocratic (business model) workplace, may well not work in one that demands collaboration, mutual cooperation and compromise.
Take the office of the POTUS. His/her “employees” are for the most part already in place. The many thousands of military folks, bureaucrats, analysts, etc. are experienced and intelligent. And, likely, they will still be there when this new POTUS is long gone. And they know that. They’ve been through many changeovers. This actually gives some stability to government which is not all bad.
Sure, the POTUS gets to name some of the heads of the various departments. However, these folks also will each have their own personal agendas and ambitions.
The bottom line is that if one cannot adapt to this highly collaborative organization culture, one will be unable to accomplish the simplest task. Bellowing, firing people, demanding action, insisting on performance – all those things that the CEO can do with impunity will simply pull him under in a high-level government post.
Donald doesn’t have a clue. If he were elected, the people of the governments of the world would eat him alive. He would be as clueless as Wilson was, when he went by his solitary self to “help” negotiate the consequences ladled out the German at the end of WW-I. How did that work out?
[font=Arial Black]... a man of notoriously vicious and intemperate disposition.[/font]
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Yes, that could be one possibility. I guess that means civil war.
He is clearly an extreme authoritarian. The hazard is that if enough of the populace gets into despair, they could vote themselves into such. that's why there's been so much written over the last year about fascism and how it comes to pass.
[font=Arial Black]... a man of notoriously vicious and intemperate disposition.[/font]
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(05-19-2016, 01:41 PM)TnT Wrote: My next observation about Donald Trump.
It is often said by my brethren from the right that we should “run government like a business,” and thereby it would be a vast improvement on how it currently runs.
It happens that during part of my career I WAS a business man. I was general manager and vice president of our enterprise.
So what? Well, I can tell you from personal experience that being “the man” makes things potentially very efficient. Businesses are, in general, NOT democracies. While it often benefits the business to have relatively happy, productive, highly-motivated employees, and while it often benefits the business to take the employees’ opinions into account, the final decisions are up to “the man.” (Or “the woman, of course!)
Business is run for a profit. Government cannot be. Does anyone want the government collecting maximal taxes? That would be extremely business-like. I doubt that Big Business would like that.
Quote:I can tell you from personal experience that this is a heady environment. It’s easy to get used to. One quickly becomes an authoritarian. You yell “Jump!” Everyone within earshot replies, “How High?!” If corrective action is needed within the enterprise, “the man” decides what it will be, whose head gets to roll, which consultant needs to be brought in, what of their recommendations will be implemented.
The Donald has spent his whole life in such an environment. And an extreme example of that! It is said that everyone has a boss. Well, The Donald has never had a boss, except possibly his father. It has always and only been HIS vision, goals, processes that have taken place within his enterprises.
...and when some Congressional representative from from a very urban district or a Senator from a Blue state decidesw not to take orders from the President.... that is democracy at work. Democracy isn't efficient in doing the will of the President, and that is a good thing.
Quote:So how does government differ? In a thousand ways. If one studies organization management, one discovers that there are many types. Not “right” or “wrong” types, just different types. Some are better than others, depending on the needs and goals of the stakeholders. My experience tells me that what works in an autocratic (business model) workplace, may well not work in one that demands collaboration, mutual cooperation and compromise.
Take the office of the POTUS. His/her “employees” are for the most part already in place. The many thousands of military folks, bureaucrats, analysts, etc. are experienced and intelligent. And, likely, they will still be there when this new POTUS is long gone. And they know that. They’ve been through many changeovers. This actually gives some stability to government which is not all bad.
Sure, the POTUS gets to name some of the heads of the various departments. However, these folks also will each have their own personal agendas and ambitions.
...and when some Army colonel tells the President that he will disobey an order from the President because the order (like torture or summary execution) violates the Geneva Convention, President Trump will be unable to fire the Army colonel.
Quote:The bottom line is that if one cannot adapt to this highly collaborative organization culture, one will be unable to accomplish the simplest task. Bellowing, firing people, demanding action, insisting on performance – all those things that the CEO can do with impunity will simply pull him under in a high-level government post.
Donald doesn’t have a clue. If he were elected, the people of the governments of the world would eat him alive. He would be as clueless as Wilson was, when he went by his solitary self to “help” negotiate the consequences ladled out the German at the end of WW-I. How did that work out?
Parts of government can operate like a business. The most important parts can't.[/quote]
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated Communist but instead the people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists -- Hannah Arendt.
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Good to see the #NeverTrump people (the ones who haven't caved already) and the Liberals are all in full blown stage 3.
The 5 Stages of Political Death by Donald Trump Wrote:The phenomenon that is Donald Trump and the Trump candidacy is historic. It has created an election and an atmosphere that we could go another century without seeing again.
Given that Donald Trump is the Haley’s Comet of American politics, no political science playbook or textbook or game plan exists on how to handle this phenomenon. From day 1, Donald Trump has baffled pundits, experts, strategists, analysts; and just about everyone else paying attention.
The efficacy of the Trump campaign to this point is attributable to Mr. Trump’s unpredictability and unconventionality. They call the study of politics and campaign management in academia “Political Science” for a reason. It doesn’t just exist to give future law students an easy major. Much like hard sciences, the political scientist likes to deal in theory or law with best practices, related to distinct causes and effects, tested over time in the laboratory.
But don’t expect to see any test tubes and microscopes. Politicos use public opinion, focus groups, conventional wisdom, and statistical analysis in their laboratory.
Donald Trump and his campaign has not only never entered the political laboratory — he’s burned it to the ground.
What is evident however is that a pattern has developed in the manner in which Donald Trump has dispatched his opponents — in the case of Jeb Bush, with nothing more than an adjective. One by one, his 16 opponents in the quest for the GOP nomination have vanished.
Each of these opponents was unique in their interactions with Trump over the course of the campaign. But in examining these interactions and how they have been portrayed in the media and evaluated by the court of public opinion, Trump’s opponents have met their demise to what I call: “ The 5 Stages of Political Death by Trump.”
Here are the stages:
Stage 1: Under Estimation
Hubris and ego are most prevalent in this stage as Trump’s opponents discount his business acumen and question his vast wealth and how he amassed it. Collectively they discount any chance he has for any type of success because he is after all a political novice and lacks the instincts needed to achieve. They ridicule his appearance, his hit TV show, and overall competence.
Stage 2: Placation
After they’ve gotten past Stage 1, the Trump opponent begins to realize that maybe Trump does have some appeal. During this stage advisers will tell the Trump opponent to “stay above the fray,” or “to keep doing your own thing,” or respond when asked about Trump with general platitudes like, “I couldn’t care less about Trump.” Essentially you are just trying to stay out of his gaze, and thus stay out of his crosshairs. Your grandpa called it, “whistling past the graveyard” — at least mine did.
Stage 3: Manipulation
When their strategy in Stage 2 proves unsuccessful, Trump’s opponents attempt to manipulate him and diminish his rising poll numbers and momentum by impacting his campaign with external forces. Examples of this have been the eminent domain argument, the KKK attacks and focusing on his past donations to Democrats (though they never seem to mention that Hillary Clinton was once a Republican). Hyperbolic labeling is popular during this phase, as comparisons of Trump are made by his opponents to some of histories most divisive and infamous characters.
Stage 4: Frustration
After Trump utilizes his broad populist appeal to stave off the manipulative, coordinated attacks from Stage 3, good old fashioned frustration sets in. “How could people be so dumb?” and “Trump appeals to the low information voter” are typically the types of sound bites that you will hear during this stage — ironically, especially so from Democrats, claiming to represent the “common man.” During this phase you’ll also see Trump opponents make wholesale changes in their staff. Like the cherry blossoms in spring, denial is in full bloom during Stage 4.
Stage 5: Hate
Like a pot full of boiling water with the stove still on high, Trump’s opponents become enraged, unable to grasp how they could be losing to the incompetent novice whom they had foolishly under estimated in Stage 1. During this stage the Trump opponent begins to deviate from their disciplined style of campaigning and they begin to make rash, reckless decisions. Their hand has been forced by Trump, never a good situation for a candidate to be in. This stage signals that political death is near.
With the GOP nomination all but wrapped up for Donald Trump, and his delegate count surging toward 1237, many are now looking toward the general election and the match up with Hillary Clinton. For those of you scoring at home, Hillary and DNC Chair Debbie Wasserman Schultz are currently vacillating between Stages 1,2, and 3.
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It is true that you cannot run the government in the same way that you would run a business. ( For one thing, the government does not have normal risk of going bankrupt).
I had the rewarding experience of working in a relatively new government agency that was managed in an effective and efficient manner for about 20 years. Then budgets increased dramatically, and management shifted from a technical driven focus to a primarily ‘politically’ driven mode. This resulted in a clear reduction in efficiency and a loss in effectiveness as well.
- My conclusion from this is that most government functions( except critical ones such as defense , social security/Medicare, infrastructure, etc) should have a finite lifetime (~ 30 years ) and every agency should then be abolished or restarted( from scratch) by Congress on a case by case basis as required.
There have been hundreds , if not thousands, of studies on government operations with little to show for this. However, there should be a way to improve operations by focusing on best practices in government and industry. Following is a recent article that caught my attention.
Quote:http://www.federaltimes.com/story/govern.../22744077/
… "Organizational project management along with project, program and portfolio management best practices just make sense. They can reduce government agencies costs by 20-30 percent, according to the 2010 PMI report Program Management 2010:A study of program management in the U.S. Federal Government.”…
… "One of the most essential—and simple—ways to make the government a more efficient steward of taxpayer funds is by instilling organizational project management leading practices already proven in both the private and public sectors. The following initiatives are ongoing demonstrations of effectively improving program management”…
… whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things. Phil 4:8 (ESV)
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When the aide linked to a pump-and-dump shyster is exposed, then Donald Trump is going to melt down politically.
Here's your nationalist demagogue connected to the worst possible foreigner (an economic criminal!) , someone willing to break up families because an older sibling is an illegal alien and a younger sibling is a US-born citizen... the hypocrisy reeks as badly as a run-over skunk.
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated Communist but instead the people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists -- Hannah Arendt.
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