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11-12-2016, 02:57 PM
(This post was last modified: 11-12-2016, 03:29 PM by Warren Dew.)
(11-12-2016, 06:06 AM)Galen Wrote: (11-12-2016, 04:05 AM)taramarie Wrote: My own thoughts I just want to add on to the last part. Once we are self aware of how we treat others negatively and our bias we can control it and choose a wiser tactic to approach those we are in disagreement with.
I remember the Tea Party protests of of 2009-2010 and two things come to mind. First, those protests were not violent. Second they cleaned up after themselves. The current protests against President-elect Donald Trump have been violent and left a big mess behind. Hell, the Occupy protests of 2009 also left a big mess that others, at taxpayer expense, had to clean up.
I sit here and watch the riots in Portland, Oregon it occurs to me that had those been Libertarian, Republican or a Religious organization that had behaved that way then the police would have been called in much sooner to arrest them. It is this obvious double standard that annoys me so much.
And yet the police are never called in, because libertarians don't behave that way. Nonaggression principle and all that. Even the Westboro folks, while deplorable by almost anyone's definition, are nonviolent. Imagine if both sides protested nonviolently and cleaned up after themselves!
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(11-12-2016, 06:06 AM)Galen Wrote: (11-12-2016, 04:05 AM)taramarie Wrote: My own thoughts I just want to add on to the last part. Once we are self aware of how we treat others negatively and our bias we can control it and choose a wiser tactic to approach those we are in disagreement with.
I remember the Tea Party protests of of 2009-2010 and two things come to mind. First, those protests were not violent. Second they cleaned up after themselves. The current protests against President-elect Donald Trump have been violent and left a big mess behind. Hell, the Occupy protests of 2009 also left a big mess that others, at taxpayer expense, had to clean up.
I sit here and watch the riots in Portland, Oregon it occurs to me that had those been Libertarian, Republican or a Religious organization that had behaved that way then the police would have been called in much sooner to arrest them. It is this obvious double standard that annoys me so much.
Ha ha. The police just shoot the blacks with impunity and ask questions later.
Now that Trump is in office, you'll have your repression. He promised you guys that.
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(11-12-2016, 02:45 PM)taramarie Wrote: (11-12-2016, 10:01 AM)Odin Wrote: (11-11-2016, 10:21 PM)taramarie Wrote: All you have to do in some cases is just show any sign you are not totally with the group and bam SEXIST RACIST DEPLORABLE! That is why I have mentioned there is some tribalism going on.
Yeah, I got banned from a left-wing board on Reddit for this exact reason. There was a thread about an incident at the University of North Dakota were some women locked out their black roommate from their dorm apartment and post an image to Instagram captioned "locked out the black bitch". Sure, what those women did was clearly insensitive and they clearly needed a stern talking to, but there were demands from the SJW types for these women to be expelled, and some extremists even wanted them banned from EVERY public university. I pointed out how stupidly counterproductive this all is and is just cathartic rage being rationalized as "justice" and won't do anything to change people's minds, which is when I got banned.
Wonderful point and it is spot on. It seems that all these extremists do is attack the intolerant with intollerance. I understand their anger BUT the way to combat intollerance is not with adding onto it. It just helps to create the intolerant, unable to see eye to eye polarization. Jut a simple thing but actions and words are important. Strategy is important. If lefties want to show they are against intollerance they need to show that they are willing to find other ways to combat it through education, exposure to different cultures, changing the media so that it is not sensationalized and inflaming anger further but just reports the news (I know boring right?), and just sitting down and getting to understand them and showing them facts but always in a tone that does not shut the person out or down. There are far more intelligent strategies than what I hear going on over there. Immigration does help too because when one grows up around people who are different they are far more accepting of them.
As for cultural right wingers (conservatives) who want to push their religion and beliefs onto people through politics I have one question. When there are so many people who do not share your beliefs in America why is it right to push those beliefs into politics? Ok one more question. How would you feel if say....Muslims wanted to push their religion into politics and have you live the lifestyle they approve of? I ask merely for self reflection and to consider how another would feel in the position they are in.
Well it seem that the left has finally bit Odin in the ass. I suppose his autism doesn't trump his white maleness. That said, they may be a minority but they are a vocal minority and is separating the traditional base from the left.
As for cultural right wingers pushing their religion onto others, that is largely a boomer phenomenon and is dying out.
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11-12-2016, 03:27 PM
(This post was last modified: 11-12-2016, 03:29 PM by Eric the Green.)
(11-12-2016, 10:01 AM)Odin Wrote: (11-11-2016, 10:21 PM)taramarie Wrote: All you have to do in some cases is just show any sign you are not totally with the group and bam SEXIST RACIST DEPLORABLE! That is why I have mentioned there is some tribalism going on.
Yeah, I got banned from a left-wing board on Reddit for this exact reason. There was a thread about an incident at the University of North Dakota were some women locked out their black roommate from their dorm apartment and post an image to Instagram captioned "locked out the black bitch". Sure, what those women did was clearly insensitive and they clearly needed a stern talking to, but there were demands from the SJW types for these women to be expelled, and some extremists even wanted them banned from EVERY public university. I pointed out how stupidly counterproductive this all is and is just cathartic rage being rationalized as "justice" and won't do anything to change people's minds, which is when I got banned.
Under Trump, look for more and more SJW types to get more militant, and repression in response. Personally I don't see why these racists should not have been expelled, but I am not close to what happened so I don't know. Being banned from boards for expressing opinions is just more authoritarian nonsense; but look for this to increase under Trump. What those racist students did was far beyond expressing opinions.
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I garuntee that if a black woman was locking out a white male room mate and posted about it on line no one would have said anything about racism. The simple fact of the matter is that all the authoritarianism is coming from one side of the divide these days. I've said before that the SJWs are the neo-puritans. That is exactly what they act like. This of course leaves the right free to scoop up all the cultural libertarians, which is the norm for Americans.
As for more militancy from the SJW types, I hope they increase it. Their protests, rioting and tantrum throwing are proving to one and all that voting in Trump was the right course of action.
As for Eric-the-ignoramus' predictions, he has a habit of being consistently wrong (probably because he's clueless) so take what he says, assume the opposite happens and you'll be safe 90% of the time.
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11-12-2016, 04:05 PM
(This post was last modified: 11-12-2016, 04:05 PM by playwrite.)
(11-12-2016, 03:44 PM)Kinser79 Wrote: I garuntee that if a black woman was locking out a white male room mate and posted about it on line no one would have said anything about racism. The simple fact of the matter is that all the authoritarianism is coming from one side of the divide these days. I've said before that the SJWs are the neo-puritans. That is exactly what they act like. This of course leaves the right free to scoop up all the cultural libertarians, which is the norm for Americans.
As for more militancy from the SJW types, I hope they increase it. Their protests, rioting and tantrum throwing are proving to one and all that voting in Trump was the right course of action.
As for Eric-the-ignoramus' predictions, he has a habit of being consistently wrong (probably because he's clueless) so take what he says, assume the opposite happens and you'll be safe 90% of the time.
The militancy? What, did they take over a federal bird scantury somewhere? Did they march into a local Starbucks or Homedepot with their A15s locked and loaded? Did they stand outside polling areas with loaded pistols on their hip harrassing voters as to who they planned to vote for?
Militancy?
As to predictions; even Ann Coulter. has it almost figured out -
Last time the GOP held the White House and both Houses of Congress was in 1928 (Ann got that) and 2003-08 (Ann missed that). With one, we got the Great Depression; and the other, we got the Great Recession. You see a pattern?
I at least thought you were as intelligent as Coulter. Dissappointing.
Dont' fear though; if we can muddle through, the pattern has the Dems coming in and saving the day.
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(11-12-2016, 03:26 PM)taramarie Wrote: (11-12-2016, 03:19 PM)Kinser79 Wrote: (11-12-2016, 02:45 PM)taramarie Wrote: (11-12-2016, 10:01 AM)Odin Wrote: (11-11-2016, 10:21 PM)taramarie Wrote: All you have to do in some cases is just show any sign you are not totally with the group and bam SEXIST RACIST DEPLORABLE! That is why I have mentioned there is some tribalism going on.
Yeah, I got banned from a left-wing board on Reddit for this exact reason. There was a thread about an incident at the University of North Dakota were some women locked out their black roommate from their dorm apartment and post an image to Instagram captioned "locked out the black bitch". Sure, what those women did was clearly insensitive and they clearly needed a stern talking to, but there were demands from the SJW types for these women to be expelled, and some extremists even wanted them banned from EVERY public university. I pointed out how stupidly counterproductive this all is and is just cathartic rage being rationalized as "justice" and won't do anything to change people's minds, which is when I got banned.
Wonderful point and it is spot on. It seems that all these extremists do is attack the intolerant with intollerance. I understand their anger BUT the way to combat intollerance is not with adding onto it. It just helps to create the intolerant, unable to see eye to eye polarization. Jut a simple thing but actions and words are important. Strategy is important. If lefties want to show they are against intollerance they need to show that they are willing to find other ways to combat it through education, exposure to different cultures, changing the media so that it is not sensationalized and inflaming anger further but just reports the news (I know boring right?), and just sitting down and getting to understand them and showing them facts but always in a tone that does not shut the person out or down. There are far more intelligent strategies than what I hear going on over there. Immigration does help too because when one grows up around people who are different they are far more accepting of them.
As for cultural right wingers (conservatives) who want to push their religion and beliefs onto people through politics I have one question. When there are so many people who do not share your beliefs in America why is it right to push those beliefs into politics? Ok one more question. How would you feel if say....Muslims wanted to push their religion into politics and have you live the lifestyle they approve of? I ask merely for self reflection and to consider how another would feel in the position they are in.
Well it seem that the left has finally bit Odin in the ass. I suppose his autism doesn't trump his white maleness. That said, they may be a minority but they are a vocal minority and is separating the traditional base from the left.
As for cultural right wingers pushing their religion onto others, that is largely a boomer phenomenon and is dying out.
Yeah sometimes people need to be bitten by their own side to see its negative effects. I sure hope so regarding cultural shoving onto others through politics. It is adding to the problem.
Wonderful, more scantimonious drivel from the otherside of the planet from someone who wears their progressivism on their sleeve. Lecturing people in other countries over the Internet while not lifting a finger to do anything in their own backyard - it must be exhausting. Good to see you're back at it, must of been the crumbcakes and spot of tea. Maybe don't sit so long next time; its been shown to make not only one's ass a bit fluffy but a tad self-indulgent on their confessed saintliness.
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Just a reminder everyone is welcome to post here regardless of where they live people who aren't Americans have a right to comment on American policies.
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(11-12-2016, 04:31 PM)taramarie Wrote: It does amaze me that the older folk on this forum are the ones who are acting like children. The older folk!
Hmm... Would it be childish to step in at this point and ask how your policy of being nice is doing? 
That this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom, and that government of the people, by the people, for the people shall not perish from the earth.
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(11-12-2016, 04:05 PM)playwrite Wrote: The militancy? What, did they take over a federal bird scantury somewhere? Did they march into a local Starbucks or Homedepot with their A15s locked and loaded? Did they stand outside polling areas with loaded pistols on their hip harrassing voters as to who they planned to vote for?
Militancy?
As to predictions; even Ann Coulter. has it almost figured out -
Last time the GOP held the White House and both Houses of Congress was in 1928 (Ann got that) and 2003-08 (Ann missed that). With one, we got the Great Depression; and the other, we got the Great Recession. You see a pattern?
I at least thought you were as intelligent as Coulter. Dissappointing.
Dont' fear though; if we can muddle through, the pattern has the Dems coming in and saving the day.
It seems that the News is not approved DNC propaganda or have you missed the rioting across the country in Blue Cities.
The Dems have had 8 years to fix the Great Recession it is still going on....perhaps if the DNC had allowed the other GC to run they would have won. But we'll never know now.
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(11-12-2016, 11:14 AM)playwrite Wrote: (11-12-2016, 12:38 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: (11-11-2016, 10:49 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: (11-11-2016, 10:24 PM)taramarie Wrote: (11-11-2016, 09:56 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: I'd agree with Odin. It's only the racisst and sexists that are being called racist and sexist. However, the racists and sexists seem to be seeing things in "you are with us or against us" mode. If one calls a racist a racist, they somehow perceive this as all whites being called racists. This is just an illustration of how an extreme partisan world view can carry one entirely clear of reality.
As well as agreeing that the extreme SJW types are a small minority on the blue side, not everyone on the red side ought to be dumped in with the racists and sexists. There is an element of stereotypical thinking, where all people on the other side are perceived of as being alike. Thus, if somebody burns down a black church and spray paints 'Vote Trump' on the side, the blame might be assigned to all Republicans. The entire Republican party wasn't at that church.
The extreme partisans are going to be screaming at their opposite extreme partisans, but an awful lot of folks aren't screaming and should not be being screamed at.
That would also apply to some of those folk who label too. Depends if the person really is sexist etc but as i have said it is not productive to call them that. Does not fix the issue.
Again, I sympathize, but what is the politically correct term for those who abhor political correctness? The answer isn't to avoid speaking about the problem. Many with blue leaning values cannot stand silent on the question of bigotry. I'd suggest that by the problem's nature, there is not and ought not be a way to refer to bigots in a polite non insulting way. Prove me wrong. How would you refer to them?
Yes, there is a problem with choosing the correct language. Do you have any constructive suggestions?
Perhaps the bigots ought to speak up. How do you prefer to be described? If bigots want to be treated with politically correct genteel respect, are they interested in responding in kind?
I don't expect Playdude or Eric to speak up anytime soon. I suggest that you address/remove all the bigotry that currently on your side before you start trying to address/remove it from the other side. I tend respond to them negatively. I tend to use terms like clueless or idiot or twit to describe their low level of knowledge pertaining to the people that they're putting down. I know a lot of liberals.The smart ones keep their negative opinions to themselves because they know they're not the only ones in the world. I've listened to a lot of liberals on TV. I've read a lot stuff written by liberals here and else where and the majority of those liberals are bigots or employees of bigots. I would like to know what cream puff worlds that you guys come from and live in? Are you lower order lib's wealthy enough to afford the amount of protection and armed security the uppity liberals can afford? My careless minded liberal neighbor found out that she's touchable? OK. We've been watching a bunch of bigots parading around, beating up people and destroying stuff for a few days. Now, you want to talk about the term "deplorable" and who's group that it more directly applies, watch the news you'll see them and you may begin to understand why your butts were kicked in this election.
We got our butts kick because there are too many of you that believe the zombie apocalpse is just around the corner and a Manhatten billioniare (who lives down the avenue from me) big daddy actually gives a shit about you. I'm still struggling with whether this is more funny than pathetic.
You got your butts kicked because you didn't listen to him or take him serious. I would expect a Manhattan millionaire to have a better feel and more intelligence than the lowly businessman who predicted a landslide victory. Do you want to know when I knew she was done? I didn't see many stupid college kids. I saw lots of grubby workers with dirty hands who took time out to vote for their candidate. You think they're deplorable. Me, I have respect for them. If the zombie apocalypse comes, I hope your peasants don't break out the guillotines like the French revolution.
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(11-12-2016, 04:31 PM)taramarie Wrote: It does amaze me that the older folk on this forum are the ones who are acting like children. The older folk!
The lunatics (Boomers and Xers) are running the asylum...
#MakeTheDemocratsGreatAgain
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(11-12-2016, 08:06 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: (11-12-2016, 11:14 AM)playwrite Wrote: (11-12-2016, 12:38 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: (11-11-2016, 10:49 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: (11-11-2016, 10:24 PM)taramarie Wrote: That would also apply to some of those folk who label too. Depends if the person really is sexist etc but as i have said it is not productive to call them that. Does not fix the issue.
Again, I sympathize, but what is the politically correct term for those who abhor political correctness? The answer isn't to avoid speaking about the problem. Many with blue leaning values cannot stand silent on the question of bigotry. I'd suggest that by the problem's nature, there is not and ought not be a way to refer to bigots in a polite non insulting way. Prove me wrong. How would you refer to them?
Yes, there is a problem with choosing the correct language. Do you have any constructive suggestions?
Perhaps the bigots ought to speak up. How do you prefer to be described? If bigots want to be treated with politically correct genteel respect, are they interested in responding in kind?
I don't expect Playdude or Eric to speak up anytime soon. I suggest that you address/remove all the bigotry that currently on your side before you start trying to address/remove it from the other side. I tend respond to them negatively. I tend to use terms like clueless or idiot or twit to describe their low level of knowledge pertaining to the people that they're putting down. I know a lot of liberals.The smart ones keep their negative opinions to themselves because they know they're not the only ones in the world. I've listened to a lot of liberals on TV. I've read a lot stuff written by liberals here and else where and the majority of those liberals are bigots or employees of bigots. I would like to know what cream puff worlds that you guys come from and live in? Are you lower order lib's wealthy enough to afford the amount of protection and armed security the uppity liberals can afford? My careless minded liberal neighbor found out that she's touchable? OK. We've been watching a bunch of bigots parading around, beating up people and destroying stuff for a few days. Now, you want to talk about the term "deplorable" and who's group that it more directly applies, watch the news you'll see them and you may begin to understand why your butts were kicked in this election.
We got our butts kick because there are too many of you that believe the zombie apocalpse is just around the corner and a Manhatten billioniare (who lives down the avenue from me) big daddy actually gives a shit about you. I'm still struggling with whether this is more funny than pathetic.
You got your butts kicked because you didn't listen to him or take him serious. I would expect a Manhattan millionaire to have a better feel and more intelligence than the lowly businessman who predicted a landslide victory. Do you want to know when I knew she was done? I didn't see many stupid college kids. I saw lots of grubby workers with dirty hands who took time out to vote for their candidate. You think they're deplorable. Me, I have respect for them. If the zombie apocalypse comes, I hope your peasants don't break out the guillotines like the French revolution.
Many of us found him impossible to listen to. Now we will hear his lying mouth all the time, ordering us to suffer on behalf
of people who believe that the common man exists only too serve those elites. Oh, yes, America will be great -- in palaces and castles for economic elites who might, at the end of this nightmare, be haled before firing squads of revolutionary justice as in Russia in 1918 and 1919.
Having made liberals politically irrelevant, Donald Trump and his buddies have practically assured that the opposition will become increasingly radicalized and violent. But don't worry; they're taking names and you must might be seen as a quisling to the working class for your posts here.
The Republic established in 1766 is now dead. The Evil Empire is born.
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated Communist but instead the people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists -- Hannah Arendt.
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(11-12-2016, 03:44 PM)Kinser79 Wrote: I garuntee that if a black woman was locking out a white male room mate and posted about it on line no one would have said anything about racism. The simple fact of the matter is that all the authoritarianism is coming from one side of the divide these days. I've said before that the SJWs are the neo-puritans. That is exactly what they act like. This of course leaves the right free to scoop up all the cultural libertarians, which is the norm for Americans.
As for more militancy from the SJW types, I hope they increase it. Their protests, rioting and tantrum throwing are proving to one and all that voting in Trump was the right course of action.
As for Eric-the-ignoramus' predictions, he has a habit of being consistently wrong (probably because he's clueless) so take what he says, assume the opposite happens and you'll be safe 90% of the time.
I know a bunch of working class Trump supporters and not a single one is angry about "SJWs", and I doubt any of them have even heard of the term. You Alt-Righters are the mirror image of the "SJWs", obsessed with identity issues that are mostly meaningless to blue collar heartland folk whose main concern is jobs. They voted for Trump because they are desperate and Trump promised them their jobs back. It's all BS of course, automation means that those jobs aren't coming back, but desperate people are easy prey for demagogues.
#MakeTheDemocratsGreatAgain
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(11-12-2016, 07:49 PM)taramarie Wrote: (11-12-2016, 07:40 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: (11-12-2016, 04:31 PM)taramarie Wrote: It does amaze me that the older folk on this forum are the ones who are acting like children. The older folk!
Hmm... Would it be childish to step in at this point and ask how your policy of being nice is doing?
I have pointed some people do not listen and it will not work on everyone. Playwrite and Eric to name two. Is it better in your opinion to smack people over the head with idealism like those two? Does that work?
Idealism might not be the ideal weapon. If your values conflict with their values, if their way of thinking suggests that anyone with values that conflict with theirs is stupid, evil, insane or otherwise mentally incapable, using values and idealism as your weapon will only make you seem stupid, evil, insane or otherwise mentally incapable in their eyes.
Logic and fact might be a better approach, but extreme partisans are often immune to logic and fact. You have to be very clear, firm, persistent and even then not expect them to see or hear what they don't feel like seeing or hearing.
Of late, I have been attacking the stereotypes. If I'm accused of hating vegetables, I'll have to insist that I'm not against all vegetables, but I don't care for asparagus or broccoli, with a caveat that for some people asparagus and broccoli are fine and that I respect asparagus and broccoli eaters. Extreme partisans often think in stereotypes. They have simple and vile notions of how people who don't agree with them think. When they go into childish attack mode, they often haven't really listened to or comprehended the point that you might have been making. In their minds, they will have morphed you into one of their vile stereotypes and will be attacking the vile stereotype rather than you.
If they are misrepresenting your values -- and they often will be, they see their stereotype of you, not you -- you might make your values clearer. "I do not hate white people. I hate bigots and advocate equality and respect." Don't expect them to listen the first few hundred times you clarify your values. Many extreme partisans are incapable of listening, can see only their vile stereotypes. They cannot interact with real people, only with their stereotypes.
If possible, when they are attacking one of their vile stereotypes, recognize that they aren't really attacking you. If by their nature they are incapable of understanding, acknowledging or respecting who you are and what you stand for, how much is their opinion really worth? Approximately zero? Zilch? Less? If their thinking through stereotypes is childish, is letting their childish tantrums hurt your feelings childish as well? If they cannot defend themselves through logic, fact and ideals, if their defense mechanism is switching to 'childish' personal attacks and insults, is it possible not to be drawn down to their level? "When they go low..."
Anyway, everyone has to find their own approach to dealing with the extreme partisans. What works for me might not feel right for you.
But to me you do seem sensitive to attacks and criticism, and tend to throw fits in response. You tend to get prickly and indigent easily and often. If you want to play nice, to have serious issue related conversations, you might want to watch that tendency. If someone is losing at the values and fact level, and wants to pivot, to move away from values and fact, they can easily prod you into exchange of personal attacks mode. You are more than a tad sensitive. You might consider watching that.
That this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom, and that government of the people, by the people, for the people shall not perish from the earth.
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(11-12-2016, 09:00 PM)taramarie Wrote: First and foremost my choice now is to ignore those comments. I did not retort back to him. I instead warned him that I had reported him and will do so again if it is particularly nasty. Call it a new strategy. Life is too short for that nonsense when one just behaves in that manner.
Good call, though ignoring a problem does not make the problem go away. Extreme partisanship is a good sized part of the problem. Unchecked, the extreme partisans will flood the board with hate and absurdity. I find I can't leave them an entirely clear field.
That this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom, and that government of the people, by the people, for the people shall not perish from the earth.
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The request by the moderator was to talk about issues, not each other. I have reported one post here that violates this request.
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11-12-2016, 11:17 PM
(This post was last modified: 11-12-2016, 11:19 PM by Eric the Green.)
(11-12-2016, 08:38 PM)Odin Wrote: The lunatics (Boomers and Xers) are running the asylum...
Do you think when millennials and homelanders "take over" things will be better? I have my doubts. Boomers' own hopes for this in the sixties have been dashed, by the Boomers themselves and the Xers. Things never seem to change in this country; the process of change stopped in 1980 and has not resumed. The USA is sclerotic and shows no sign of changing. I have predicted that this would finally change in the 2020s. Now, it would be a mammoth, wholesale and 180-degree change, as of Tuesday. So, good luck to the USA.
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If you aren't listening to another poster or have them on your ignore list it would bet better to do it without announcing it.
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