Bipartisan Senate group proposes ‘no fly, no buy’ gun measure

[Bob Butler 54]

(01-29-2018, 09:41 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: Although I agree due process should be used, my thought remains that in the case of gun rights, we should err on the side of taking them away. Few if any countries allow that "right" to the extent that we in the USA do. A gun confers too much power to kill on the person possessing it. Such a "right" needs to be qualified even more than are other rights, which are also qualified by law. A person on a no fly list was placed there for a reason. It is usually not arbitrary. I wouldn't mind though, if better due processing was used to draw up the no fly list, if it's believed that this process is too arbitrary. A few people have been put on that list just because they are political radicals of some sort.

The Constitution was written during a relatively brief period of time when rights were taken very seriously.  It contains the words "shall not be infringed", which is only one reason not to infringe it.  Yes, the blue world view contradicts the Constitution, but the red view, in this case, does not.  While much water has gone beneath the crude bridge that arches the flood, rule of law is basic, and should not be dismissed lightly.  I am open to seeing the force of the 2nd reduced, but you should go through one of the procedures outlined to change the Constitution, not blatantly assume that the blue world view is so superior to the red.

[Eric the Green]

(02-03-2018, 05:37 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(01-29-2018, 09:41 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: Although I agree due process should be used, my thought remains that in the case of gun rights, we should err on the side of taking them away. Few if any countries allow that "right" to the extent that we in the USA do. A gun confers too much power to kill on the person possessing it. Such a "right" needs to be qualified even more than are other rights, which are also qualified by law. A person on a no fly list was placed there for a reason. It is usually not arbitrary. I wouldn't mind though, if better due processing was used to draw up the no fly list, if it's believed that this process is too arbitrary. A few people have been put on that list just because they are political radicals of some sort.

The Constitution was written during a relatively brief period of time when rights were taken very seriously.  It contains the words "shall not be infringed", which is only one reason not to infringe it.  Yes, the blue world view contradicts the Constitution, but the red view, in this case, does not.  While much water has gone beneath the crude bridge that arches the flood, rule of law is basic, and should not be dismissed lightly.  I am open to seeing the force of the 2nd reduced, but you should go through one of the procedures outlined to change the Constitution, not blatantly assume that the blue world view is so superior to the red.

Oh come now, Mr. Butler, of course the blue world view is superior to the red......

No constitutional rights are without qualification, and are open to legal adjustments without constitutional amendments. Even the Scalia Court admitted that the 2nd did not mean gun control was illegal. There is no contradiction to the Constitution going on with any of what the "blue" side is proposing these days. It's true *I myself* might like to go further, and that indeed might involve revising or amending the Constitution, but Americans are not ready for this yet.

[Bob Butler 54]

(02-03-2018, 06:17 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: Oh come now, Mr. Butler, of course the blue world view is superior to the red......

I believe, for example, that global warming and the need to acknowledge the post scarcity way of business are very much real.  We are going to see a lot of what is considered holy writ thrown away.  It is not clear that the 2nd can be thrown in the bucket of certainty.  Every time the statistics are thrown around, you fail for good reason to carry your point.

(02-03-2018, 06:17 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: No constitutional rights are without qualification, and are open to legal adjustments without constitutional amendments. Even the Scalia Court admitted that the 2nd did not mean gun control was illegal. There is no contradiction to the Constitution going on with any of what the "blue" side is proposing these days. It's true *I myself* might like to go further, and that indeed might involve revising or amending the Constitution, but Americans are not ready for this yet.

I have spoken often of world views that specify how things work, and values which specify things worth striving for.  Nebraska seems to use jingoes, brief snippets of wisdom which sometimes echo the above, sometimes are opposed by opposite snippets held highly by rivals, and are sometimes out and out lies frequently shown by reality to be false.  The three seem definitely related.  My quest has been to find the wisdom of those in opposition and incorporate their wisdom into a more complex system.  In my quest, I find too much stubborn hear-me-not partisanship.  I have called it values lock.  It has been called many things.  People are so certain of their own snippets of wisdom that the will lock anything that conflicts and not change.  The red, blue, green, scientific and evangelical perspectives are a few among many.

I try to avoid word like 'certainty'.  Such words might imply that one need not listen, one need not understand, that it is the other guy that has a problem.  I have encountered often the conservative saying what has been is good enough.  I have encountered progressives who think we should do better.  I have seen selfishness as a major ingredient of both.  I have seen people blind to reality chasing impossible dreams.  The result is a mess.

Some blues are attempting to do what can be done, close loopholes, deny the felon, attempt to find and apply the law to the mentally incompetent.  Some fail to follow the Law as written, so certain they are right as to cripple rule of law, to make impossible living together.

You and I are not among the latter.  This does not imply those who have swung otherwise do not exist.

[nom]

No one rules if no one obeys.

[Eric the Green]

(02-03-2018, 08:35 AM)Bob Butler 5 Wrote: I believe, for example, that global warming and the need to acknowledge the post scarcity way of business are very much real.  We are going to see a lot of what is considered holy writ thrown away.  It is not clear that the 2nd can be thrown in the bucket of certainty.  Every time the statistics are thrown around, you fail for good reason to carry your point.

Not really. The difference between developed countries with strict gun laws and the USA is profound; murder and suicide rates are much higher in the USA

The difference between states on murder rates and gun laws is affected by many factors. The data on 2016 murder rates, gun laws, and the general approach to life represented by red and blue states as of 2016, is as follows:

17 states with highest murder rates: average murder rate rank 8.5. Average lax gun law rank: 19.5. 11 red states, 4 purple states, 2 blue states.

17 states in the middle: average murder rate rank: 26.5. Average lax gun law rank: 25.3. 7 red states, 6 purple states, 4 blue states

16 states with lowest murder rates: average murder rate rank: 42.5. Average lax gun law rank: 32.1. 5 red states, 2 purple states, 9 blue states.

So there's a trend of higher murder rates in states with lax gun laws, as well as a trend of higher murder rates in red states.


Suicide rate data is much clearer, showing states with lax gun laws have higher suicide rates.

Murder rate data from https://deathpenaltyinfo.org/murder-rate...tate#MRord

lax gun law rankings from http://www.crimadvisor.com/data/Brady-St...d-2014.pdf (see 50 state rankings)

red and blue states are my estimate, including some blue states that went purple as of 2016.

[nom]

If Americans don't defend free speech, religious freedom, gun rights, freedom from unconstitutional searches and seizures, the right to silence, and the freedom from torture and extrajudicial assassination, what part of the Bill of Rights do they support?

What country is this?

[pbrower2a]

"Gun rights" are the least important of them. There are plenty of terrorist regimes awash in firearms, and there have been plenty of wrecked societies in which the only things that work are the guns.

[nom]

WTF?

The only reason why Americans are not in concentration camps now is because Americans still have guns.

[pbrower2a]

(02-05-2018, 12:10 AM)nom Wrote: WTF?

The only reason why Americans are not in concentration camps now is because Americans still have guns.

Concentration camps indicate a political system whose leaders have no moral compass.

[tg63]

(02-05-2018, 12:10 AM)nom Wrote: WTF?

The only reason why Americans are not in concentration camps now is because Americans still have guns.

we still manage to be polite though in our Canadian concentration camps ... and those Icelandic concentration camps, they're really scary ...

[Eric the Green]

(02-04-2018, 12:25 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(02-03-2018, 08:35 AM)Bob Butler 5 Wrote: I believe, for example, that global warming and the need to acknowledge the post scarcity way of business are very much real.  We are going to see a lot of what is considered holy writ thrown away.  It is not clear that the 2nd can be thrown in the bucket of certainty.  Every time the statistics are thrown around, you fail for good reason to carry your point.

Not really. The difference between developed countries with strict gun laws and the USA is profound; murder and suicide rates are much higher in the USA

The difference between states on murder rates and gun laws is affected by many factors. The data on 2016 murder rates, gun laws, and the general approach to life represented by red and blue states as of 2016, is as follows:

17 states with highest murder rates: average murder rate rank 9. Average lax gun law rank: 19.5. 11 red states, 4 purple states, 2 blue states.

17 states in the middle: average murder rate rank: 26. Average lax gun law rank: 25.3. 7 red states, 6 purple states, 4 blue states

16 states with lowest murder rates: average murder rate rank: 42.5. Average lax gun law rank: 32.1. 5 red states, 2 purple states, 9 blue states.

So there's a trend of higher murder rates in states with lax gun laws, as well as a trend of higher murder rates in red states.


Suicide rate data is much clearer, showing states with lax gun laws have higher suicide rates.

Murder rate data from https://deathpenaltyinfo.org/murder-rate...tate#MRord

lax gun law rankings from http://www.crimadvisor.com/data/Brady-St...d-2014.pdf (see 50 state rankings)

red and blue states are my estimate, including some blue states that went purple as of 2016.

It's interesting too that in the group of 16 states with the lowest murder rates and the strictest gun laws, red and blue states were even in those states ranked 35 to 42 in murder rates, while in the states ranked 43 to 50 in murder there was only one red state (ND), 5 blue states and the 2 purple states, both of which (IA and NH) trend blueish.

All 5 red states among the 16 states ranked lowest in murder were northern western states (SD ranked 35, ID ranked 36, Neb. ranked 40, Utah ranked 42 and ND ranked 47). The states ranked #30 to 33 in murder are also in this group (KS, CO, MT, WY).

The 2 blue states among the 17 states with the highest murder rates were Illinois and Maryland. Illinois has had a spike in murder rates lately (in Chicago).

The state with the strictest gun laws, California (now ranked #26 in murder), has seen a big drop in murder rates since the 1990s. It has been cut almost in half. New York (now ranked #34 in murder) has seen it's murder rate cut by much more than a half. It it now the 5th-strictest gun law state in the nation.

Murder rates have gone up nationally in 2015 and 2016. I suspect it's because of the trend toward open carry and other permissive gun laws passed recently in many states. The conflict between the police and black people has also contributed to this small spike in some cities like Baltimore and St. Louis. Missouri was ranked 2nd in murder in 2016, and Maryland 4th, somewhat higher than usual in both states.

[Eric the Green]

(02-04-2018, 10:35 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: "Gun rights" are the least important of them. There are plenty of terrorist regimes awash in firearms, and there have been plenty of wrecked societies in which the only things that work are the guns.

Right you are; couldn't have said it better.

[Eric the Green]

[Eric the Green]

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/...aps-charts

[Eric the Green]

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/...aps-charts

Gun and suicide rates:
http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp0805923

[Eric the Green]

More guns: less freedom. The trend in the USA. In recent years freedom has declined in the USA, while gun laws have gotten more permissive and support for gun possession has grown.





The FBI is performing more background checks than ever
https://www.cnn.com/2015/12/04/us/gun-vi...index.html

"The practice of open carry, where gun owners openly carry firearms while they go about their daily business, has seen an increase in the U.S. in recent years"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_carry...ted_States

[nom]

Tyranny spreads up from the US government to other countries and down to the state, county, and city
governments. Once the USA is disarmed, the world really will be a prison.

http://www.firstpost.com/world/global-fr...09991.html

[Eric the Green]

The more libertarians the USA has, the more enslaved we are.

(I exaggerate, but, touche )

[nom]

War is peace; freedom is slavery; ignorance is strength.

[Bob Butler 54]

Maybe if he had a thread for slogans...