Bipartisan Senate group proposes ‘no fly, no buy’ gun measure

[Classic-Xer]

(03-25-2018, 05:53 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(03-24-2018, 05:13 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Al Gore was an heir to an old slave owner. Rockefeller was an heir to an old robber baron. Kennedy was an heir of an old bootlegger. Virgil Saari was an owner of a piece of land that had been passed on/down from generation to generation. I didn't speak with him much at the time. We both lived Minnesota and we only spoke about stuff going on in Minnesota at the time. I'm familiar with the area that he lived. As I recall, he was into selling cattle.

Yep.  What was once acceptable now is not.  The fathers thought much differently than the sons.  Monarchy, slavery, and pollution were once acceptable, a normal part of doing business.  It is the role of the reds to be behind the curve, to not see the need for change.

(03-24-2018, 05:13 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: I'm not going to get into it with you on Global warming. I view global warming as an issue that's pretty much out of our control at this point. We can change some things now but whatever we do now will have little to no impact on the negative effects caused global warming. We've done our part. It's time for countries like India and China to do their part. China is pumping out raw coal fumes like we did during the 50- 60's and you're bitching at us like its our fault.

I see China and India as burning and spreading health care problems as well as global warming and global dimming.  It is only a matter of time before they start putting scrubbers on smokestacks as the West did to ease the health problems.  That will ease global dimming considerably and be a last straw on the global warming side.  Global dimming is currently putting breaks on global warming.  It will not be there forever.  I anticipate something like that will be necessary before the youngsters will pressure the decision makers to begin to act fully.  Ecological values will force the reds to get out of blame everyone but ourselves mode finally.

What makes you think blues are supposed to be the ones ahead of the curve? I don't view blues as being ahead of the curve. I view blues as being behind the curve as far as most issues go and issues associated with making a decision to place the cart in front of horse. Blues are still clinging to command and control systems and rigid organizational/bureaucratic structures of old (the industrial age).

Look at your party, is your party the party of ancient Rome with Caesar and a group of Senators (a top down system) making decisions for all people.The party of jolly old England loaded with urban socialites acting like aristocrat's of old. The party of jolly old blue Hollywood, a group of American car manufacturers, a small group of health insurance companies/providers, a small group of big banks, a small group of financial investment firms, a small group of local unions, a small group of government related employees, a group of larger unions primarily related to them. I look at the Democratic system, I see all kinds of similarities with reactionary systems of old ranging from the old Romans to the old Soviets including the Catholic church. The American system of governance wasn't set up to be like any of them.

[David Horn]

(03-23-2018, 11:10 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(03-23-2018, 01:20 PM)David Horn Wrote: The shooter may very well be suicidal and simply doesn't care if he (almost always a 'he') survives.  In any case, he has had the time to psyche himself up for the task, and, nominally, is in charge of the event.  Responders have no time to do anything but react or to prepare mentally.  That's part of the asymmetry.

If I said, a person would tend to do what comes natural to them in situations like that, would you agree with me.

Yes and no.  Yes, to the extent that all of us react in natural ways unless extensively trained to do otherwise.  No, to the extent that no one knows what constitutes 'natural' so evaluating how closely someone conforms is nearly impossible.  

High stress situations are poor times to run that as an experiment.  Look at the evidence of bravery from Lt. Col. Arnaud Beltrame.  This is a man who performed to form.  He had a history of bravery long before this tragic event.  That's incredibly rare, and raises the question: was this the result of personal bravery alone or was it also a product of training and focus?

[David Horn]

(03-24-2018, 07:53 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: As the token Whig, I find it amusing that the Republicans and Communists ended up sharing a color.  I consider both to be the opposite of progressive, of Whig, clinging to old values and economic theories.  They cling to different old value systems, true, but older none the less.

Apparently, the assignments were made ad hoc during the 2000 election.  Prior to that, blue was more common fro Republicans, but far from universal.  Thank TV for casting the die on this one.

[David Horn]

(03-24-2018, 05:13 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: ... Al Gore was an heir to an old slave owner. Rockefeller was an heir to an old robber baron. Kennedy was an heir of an old bootlegger. Virgil Saari was an owner of a piece of land that had been passed on/down from generation to generation. I didn't speak with him much at the time. We both lived Minnesota and we only spoke about stuff going on in Minnesota at the time. I'm familiar with the area that he lived. As I recall, he was into selling cattle.

All good points

Classic-Xer Wrote:I'm not going to get into it with you on Global warming. I view global warming as an issue that's pretty much out of our control at this point. We can change some things now but whatever we do now will have little to no impact on the negative effects caused global warming. We've done our part. It's time for countries like India and China to do their part. China is pumping out raw coal fumes like we did during the 50- 60's and you're bitching at us like its our fault.

If you look at the percapita generation of CO2, the US is 10th, China is 59th and India is 118th.  Both are huge countries with large populations, so their impacts are large, but China is already moving fast (intends to eliminate fossil fuel automobiles entirely in 10years, and is converting to solar much faster than we are).  India is still too poor.  They don't even have universal sanitation.

But neither is as large a percaptia offender than we are.

[David Horn]

(03-24-2018, 06:46 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: So happy these kids are coming on. They will overwhelm the Classic Gen X cynics and shift the nation just as I predicted 20-30 years ago that they would!

<Video deleted ... see above>

It is truly sad that it has to come to this.

[pbrower2a]

Interesting cartoon:

[pbrower2a]

(03-25-2018, 01:48 PM)David Horn Wrote:

(03-24-2018, 07:53 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: As the token Whig, I find it amusing that the Republicans and Communists ended up sharing a color.  I consider both to be the opposite of progressive, of Whig, clinging to old values and economic theories.  They cling to different old value systems, true, but older none the less.

Apparently, the assignments were made ad hoc during the 2000 election.  Prior to that, blue was more common fro Republicans, but far from universal.  Thank TV for casting the die on this one.

Blue was associated with nobility and capitalism; red with Communism and anything supporting socialism even at the level of FDR's New Deal. Never mind that the New Deal may have saved American capitalism...

[Classic-Xer]

(03-24-2018, 02:12 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: I am sympathetic with the modern blue, but perhaps take a longer term perspective.  The modern reds are heirs to monarchy, to slaveowners, to robber barons.  They see nothing wrong with advancing their own cause at the expense of others.  I see the ever increasing productivity and population as a solvable problem, but the gap between the haves and have nots must be looked at. You cannot be as blind to consequences as many reds seem to be.

I showed you a couple of heirs of the slave owners and robber barons who are associated with Blues. We spoke about an heir of an immigrant who arrived in Minnesota and established a homestead on a piece of land associated with America a long time ago. I assume his grandfather or great grandfather legally purchased the land like my great grandfather and grandfather purchased their land a long time ago. I'm sure Playwright fits in the group of heirs to robber barons and slave owners as well. You might be financially associated with them as well.

I'm not blind to consequences of the gap between the haves and have nots. I'm familiar with the French Revolution and the popular use of the guillotine to satisfy angry peasants. Anarchy ain't pretty. The gap among Reds isn't as large or viewed as being as important among Reds as it is among Blues. Red culture is actually pretty modest. You don't see a lot of bling, fancy automobiles, fancy houses, fancy clothes in Red culture. We are similar in that we're old school in our understanding and our acceptance of the need for harsh lessons to be taught and learned at times. We differ in our opinions of which side will be paying the price associated with harsh lessons and which side is going to come out on top so to speak.

Hint: If you are concerned about creating large income gaps, you shouldn't be promoting and taking in large sums of welfare recipients and promoting sanctuary cities and taking in large sums of illegal aliens with no jobs or homes and promoting taking poor refuges with no marketable talents and skills who have no jobs or homes and supporting them with taxes that working people are legally obligated to pay and morally obligated to accept in order to keep roof's over their families heads and schools for their kids to learn in. Do you have access to a jet like someone like Nancy P.? Do you have a home in a blue country like someone like Madonna or Playwright or a weasel attorney? You should love Trump, because Trump has given blues some extra years before crisis begins and the violence really starts.

[Classic-Xer]

(03-25-2018, 03:02 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: Interesting cartoon:

Disturbing. It would be even more disturbing if they were the ones who actually did all the shooting. Blue are making a great case for Red guns to remain idle and silent while blues are being slaughtered by criminals.

[pbrower2a]

(03-25-2018, 04:01 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Disturbing. It would be even more disturbing if they were the ones who actually did all the shooting. Blue are making a great case for Red guns to remain idle and silent while blues are being slaughtered by criminals.

Do we blame drug traffickers for the misery that illicit drugs cause? Of course. Was the slaver as culpable in the horrors of slavery as the planters who owned slaves? I would think so. The person who established the logistics of transporting Jews to their doom in Hitlerland (Adolf Eichmann) was as culpable as the person who cast the pellets of Zyklon-B into the gas chambers.

The National Rifle Association is the main defender of profitable weapons of unmitigated danger to people. It resists every effort to restrain gun use. It may be right about advocating more commitments for mental illness, but that is not the focus of the NRA. It has blood on its hands -- and it hasn't been cutting meat in a butcher shop.

[Eric the Green]

(03-25-2018, 03:50 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(03-24-2018, 02:12 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: I am sympathetic with the modern blue, but perhaps take a longer term perspective.  The modern reds are heirs to monarchy, to slaveowners, to robber barons.  They see nothing wrong with advancing their own cause at the expense of others.  I see the ever increasing productivity and population as a solvable problem, but the gap between the haves and have nots must be looked at. You cannot be as blind to consequences as many reds seem to be.

I showed you a couple of heirs of the slave owners and robber barons who are associated with Blues. We spoke about an heir of an immigrant who arrived in Minnesota and established a homestead on a piece of land associated with America a long time ago. I assume his grandfather or great grandfather legally purchased the land like my great grandfather and grandfather purchased their land a long time ago. I'm sure Playwright fits in the group of heirs to robber barons and slave owners as well. You might be financially associated with them as well.

I'm not blind to consequences of the gap between the haves and have nots. I'm familiar with the French Revolution and the popular use of the guillotine to satisfy angry peasants. Anarchy ain't pretty. The gap among Reds isn't as large or viewed as being as important among Reds as it is among Blues. Red culture is actually pretty modest. You don't see a lot of bling, fancy automobiles, fancy houses, fancy clothes in Red culture. We are similar in that we're old school in our understanding and our acceptance of the need for harsh lessons to be taught and learned at times. We differ in our opinions of which side will be paying the price associated with harsh lessons and which side is going to come out on top so to speak.

Hint: If you are concerned about creating large income gaps, you shouldn't be promoting and taking in large sums of welfare recipients and promoting sanctuary cities and taking in large sums of illegal aliens with no jobs or homes and promoting taking poor refuges with no marketable talents and skills who have no jobs or homes and supporting them with taxes that working people are legally obligated to pay and morally obligated to accept in order to keep roof's over their families heads and schools for their kids to learn in. Do you have access to a jet like someone like Nancy P.? Do you have a home in a blue country like someone like Madonna or Playwright or a weasel attorney? You should love Trump, because Trump has given blues some extra years before crisis begins and the violence really starts.

Your point might be good about Red culture being modest; I'm sure it is if you're talking farmers and ranchers and small town shopkeepers and small industrial workers, etc. But the fact is, the Reds are by definition those who vote Republican. Therefore, they vote for the party that protects the interests of the wealthy, and only the wealthy. It is well known that most Red voters do not vote their interests, but their "valyas" (values). The Red leaders parade these cultural issues and dangle them in front of rural and suburban voters, and they fall for it hook line and sinker. And the wealthy are still predominantly Republican voters themselves, although that difference seems to be diminishing in very-recent elections as Republican nominees get ever dumber and just plain stupider, so that even many wealthy people (especially those living in wealthy cities) understand that sabotaging our nation with ridiculous economic-libertarian, militarist and superstitious policies and stupid, foolish, divisive leaders is not really good for their interests. But the wealthy still finance the Republican politicians far more than they do Democrats, and Republicans cater to the interests of these wealthy donors, especially the gun lobby.

We blues don't love Trump, who is certainly accelerating the arrival of the Crisis, not giving us extra time. But that is pretty much what we here all expected to happen, because we know this is a 4T. It's a 4T largely caused by Republican presidents of the past 40 years, conditioned with Reagan, brought on by Bush, and accelerated by Drump.

Income gaps have increased for the opposite reason to what you claim. I understand you are opposed to welfare and illegal immigrants; nothing could be clearer to us blues than that this is your concern. 

But it's the lack of government support for the poor and the workers, and lack of restraint on the rich and their accumulation of wealth, that has caused the income gap today. Welfare is a very small portion of the federal budget and taxes, although it's larger in many blue states like CA. Blues tend to go along with the Red idea that tax cuts help the economy; in fact, rather too much going along with it, probably. Most blues don't want high taxes on the middle class, as I pointed out. Just because Reds complain about taxes, doesn't mean at all that they are too high. Taxes just goes against Reaganomics, with which Reds have been totally brainwashed. But the tax burden on US workers is far less than those in other countries, and on top of that, we get far less for what we pay than we should, even at our lower level of payment--- all because the libertarian philosophy has been in charge of our country for 40 years.

[Eric the Green]

(03-25-2018, 01:11 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(03-25-2018, 05:53 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(03-24-2018, 05:13 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Al Gore was an heir to an old slave owner. Rockefeller was an heir to an old robber baron. Kennedy was an heir of an old bootlegger. Virgil Saari was an owner of a piece of land that had been passed on/down from generation to generation. I didn't speak with him much at the time. We both lived Minnesota and we only spoke about stuff going on in Minnesota at the time. I'm familiar with the area that he lived. As I recall, he was into selling cattle.

Yep.  What was once acceptable now is not.  The fathers thought much differently than the sons.  Monarchy, slavery, and pollution were once acceptable, a normal part of doing business.  It is the role of the reds to be behind the curve, to not see the need for change.

(03-24-2018, 05:13 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: I'm not going to get into it with you on Global warming. I view global warming as an issue that's pretty much out of our control at this point. We can change some things now but whatever we do now will have little to no impact on the negative effects caused global warming. We've done our part. It's time for countries like India and China to do their part. China is pumping out raw coal fumes like we did during the 50- 60's and you're bitching at us like its our fault.

I see China and India as burning and spreading health care problems as well as global warming and global dimming.  It is only a matter of time before they start putting scrubbers on smokestacks as the West did to ease the health problems.  That will ease global dimming considerably and be a last straw on the global warming side.  Global dimming is currently putting breaks on global warming.  It will not be there forever.  I anticipate something like that will be necessary before the youngsters will pressure the decision makers to begin to act fully.  Ecological values will force the reds to get out of blame everyone but ourselves mode finally.

What makes you think blues are supposed to be the ones ahead of the curve? I don't view blues as being ahead of the curve. I view blues as being behind the curve as far as most issues go and issues associated with making a decision to place the cart in front of horse. Blues are still clinging to command and control systems and rigid organizational/bureaucratic structures of old (the industrial age).

Look at your party, is your party the party of ancient Rome with Caesar and a group of Senators (a top down system) making decisions for all people.The party of jolly old England loaded with urban socialites acting like aristocrat's of old. The party of jolly old blue Hollywood, a group of American car manufacturers, a small group of health insurance companies/providers, a small group of big banks, a small group of financial investment firms, a small group of local unions, a small group of government related employees, a group of larger unions primarily related to them. I look at the Democratic system, I see all kinds of similarities with reactionary systems of old ranging from the old Romans to the old Soviets including the Catholic church. The American system of governance wasn't set up to be like any of them.

Not so. The command and control systems in this country are the corporations. The bosses are the ones in control of our top-down system, and that extends to most non-profits and family-owned and smaller businesses as well. Just like Donald Trump so famously does, they hire and fire you, tell what to do on the job, and set your wages and benefits. Meanwhile, traditional religions keeps male adults in power at home too. The government, on the other hand, has its locus of power in the voters, even though the real command and control system (the wealthy, the church and the corporations) wield outsized influence in the government and are able to deceive the red voters into supporting them and their top-down trickle-down policies. 

But the people can and will take their government back in the 2020s. When it acts for the people, the government's command structure acts to control the excesses of the bosses. The bosses complain that this infringes on their "freedom." Deceived red voters believe this tempting tripe. The red politicians promise them lower taxes and traditional values, and the red voters swallow the bait.

[Eric the Green]

(03-25-2018, 02:17 PM)David Horn Wrote:

(03-24-2018, 06:46 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: So happy these kids are coming on. They will overwhelm the Classic Gen X cynics and shift the nation just as I predicted 20-30 years ago that they would!

<Video deleted ... see above>

It is truly sad that it has to come to this.

It is great that they are active; we always need to be, all of us of all ages, all the time. It's sad that young people face this exaggerated danger, and that in every school in this country they have to go through drills and more drills and have guards and maybe metal detectors and rooms that are like jails, just because Republican politicians want to protect the "right" of anyone to own and carry a weapon of war.

[Classic-Xer]

(03-25-2018, 07:38 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(03-25-2018, 01:11 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(03-25-2018, 05:53 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(03-24-2018, 05:13 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Al Gore was an heir to an old slave owner. Rockefeller was an heir to an old robber baron. Kennedy was an heir of an old bootlegger. Virgil Saari was an owner of a piece of land that had been passed on/down from generation to generation. I didn't speak with him much at the time. We both lived Minnesota and we only spoke about stuff going on in Minnesota at the time. I'm familiar with the area that he lived. As I recall, he was into selling cattle.

Yep.  What was once acceptable now is not.  The fathers thought much differently than the sons.  Monarchy, slavery, and pollution were once acceptable, a normal part of doing business.  It is the role of the reds to be behind the curve, to not see the need for change.

(03-24-2018, 05:13 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: I'm not going to get into it with you on Global warming. I view global warming as an issue that's pretty much out of our control at this point. We can change some things now but whatever we do now will have little to no impact on the negative effects caused global warming. We've done our part. It's time for countries like India and China to do their part. China is pumping out raw coal fumes like we did during the 50- 60's and you're bitching at us like its our fault.

I see China and India as burning and spreading health care problems as well as global warming and global dimming.  It is only a matter of time before they start putting scrubbers on smokestacks as the West did to ease the health problems.  That will ease global dimming considerably and be a last straw on the global warming side.  Global dimming is currently putting breaks on global warming.  It will not be there forever.  I anticipate something like that will be necessary before the youngsters will pressure the decision makers to begin to act fully.  Ecological values will force the reds to get out of blame everyone but ourselves mode finally.

What makes you think blues are supposed to be the ones ahead of the curve? I don't view blues as being ahead of the curve. I view blues as being behind the curve as far as most issues go and issues associated with making a decision to place the cart in front of horse. Blues are still clinging to command and control systems and rigid organizational/bureaucratic structures of old (the industrial age).

Look at your party, is your party the party of ancient Rome with Caesar and a group of Senators (a top down system) making decisions for all people.The party of jolly old England loaded with urban socialites acting like aristocrat's of old. The party of jolly old blue Hollywood, a group of American car manufacturers, a small group of health insurance companies/providers, a small group of big banks, a small group of financial investment firms, a small group of local unions, a small group of government related employees, a group of larger unions primarily related to them. I look at the Democratic system, I see all kinds of similarities with reactionary systems of old ranging from the old Romans to the old Soviets including the Catholic church. The American system of governance wasn't set up to be like any of them.

Not so. The command and control systems in this country are the corporations. The bosses are the ones in control of our top-down system, and that extends to most non-profits and family-owned and smaller businesses as well. Just like Donald Trump so famously does, they hire and fire you, tell what to do on the job, and set your wages and benefits. Meanwhile, traditional religions keeps male adults in power at home too. The government, on the other hand, has its locus of power in the voters, even though the real command and control system (the wealthy, the church and the corporations) wield outsized influence in the government and are able to deceive the red voters into supporting them and their top-down trickle-down policies. 

But the people can and will take their government back in the 2020s. When it acts for the people, the government's command structure acts to control the excesses of the bosses. The bosses complain that this infringes on their "freedom." Deceived red voters believe this tempting tripe. The red politicians promise them lower taxes and traditional values, and the red voters swallow the bait.

As I've told you before, your masters have trained you well grass hopper. You were a boss. Who made the decisions for your business, you or someone else you paid to make the decisions for you? It will be interesting to see what your answer is so I can see what kind of business owner you were at the time.

Honestly, I don't really care about how people run their business's or their households or which sex makes the final decisions. I know women who wear the pants and make the bulk of the decisions for the family. I don't believe traditional religion decides who has the power at home either. The women in my family were quite capable of making decisions themselves and their families. That's how our young women are being raised today. We are raising them to think for themselves and we are preparing them to be decision makers and become strong independent women.

[Classic-Xer]

(03-26-2018, 12:57 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: It is great that they are active; we always need to be, all of us of all ages, all the time. It's sad that young people face this exaggerated danger, and that in every school in this country they have to go through drills and more drills and have guards and maybe metal detectors and rooms that are like jails, just because Republican politicians want to protect the "right" of anyone to own and carry a weapon of war.  

Eric, removing/banning AR-15's from everyone isn't even on the table.

[David Horn]

(03-25-2018, 04:01 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(03-25-2018, 03:02 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: Interesting cartoon:

Disturbing. It would be even more disturbing if they were the ones who actually did all the shooting. Blue are making a great case for Red guns to remain idle and silent while blues are being slaughtered by criminals.

There is no data to backup your assertion, and the NRA has done everything in its power to make collecting and analyzing that data impossible.  I wonder why.

[David Horn]

(03-26-2018, 01:47 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(03-26-2018, 12:57 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: It is great that they are active; we always need to be, all of us of all ages, all the time. It's sad that young people face this exaggerated danger, and that in every school in this country they have to go through drills and more drills and have guards and maybe metal detectors and rooms that are like jails, just because Republican politicians want to protect the "right" of anyone to own and carry a weapon of war.  

Eric, removing/banning AR-15's from everyone isn't even on the table.

When you oppose all actions you almost assure drastic ones later on.  We don't know where this will lead or when, but it's not likely to be a mild rebuke of gun ownership.

[Eric the Green]

(03-26-2018, 01:47 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(03-26-2018, 12:57 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: It is great that they are active; we always need to be, all of us of all ages, all the time. It's sad that young people face this exaggerated danger, and that in every school in this country they have to go through drills and more drills and have guards and maybe metal detectors and rooms that are like jails, just because Republican politicians want to protect the "right" of anyone to own and carry a weapon of war.  

Eric, removing/banning AR-15's from everyone isn't even on the table.

That's right. Bans from everyone isn't on the table, but the gun advocates want to protect the right of anyone to buy, possess and carry a weapon of war.

I don't think the proposed bans include laws against possession, iirc, so it wouldn't be like prohibition of drugs or alcohol, where you can go to jail for possessing marijuana, for example, but just a ban on sales and manufacture. And the proposed bans don't include mass confiscation, as that might violate the 4th amendment. So it's not that the reforms would "take your guns away," but it would take away the opportunity to purchase AR-15s and similar weapons. So it's also true, if this is correct, that a gun-overrun American society will be grandfathered in for quite a while. But some protection against new young mass shooters would happen.

Of course that won't stop Republicans and other fanatics from claiming that the reformers are taking their guns away. And if the NRA and their followers continue to resist sensible reforms, the proposals and eventual laws may get more drastic in the future, as David and I have pointed out.

I have predicted many times here and elsewhere that the longer sensible reforms are delayed by the NRA and the Republicans, the more and bigger mass shootings and gun violence there will be, and thus the cries for gun control will get ever louder. All this has happened, and will continue until proper reforms are made. Only then will we see any reduction in gun violence.

[Eric the Green]

(03-26-2018, 01:08 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(03-25-2018, 07:38 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(03-25-2018, 01:11 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(03-25-2018, 05:53 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(03-24-2018, 05:13 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Al Gore was an heir to an old slave owner. Rockefeller was an heir to an old robber baron. Kennedy was an heir of an old bootlegger. Virgil Saari was an owner of a piece of land that had been passed on/down from generation to generation. I didn't speak with him much at the time. We both lived Minnesota and we only spoke about stuff going on in Minnesota at the time. I'm familiar with the area that he lived. As I recall, he was into selling cattle.

Yep.  What was once acceptable now is not.  The fathers thought much differently than the sons.  Monarchy, slavery, and pollution were once acceptable, a normal part of doing business.  It is the role of the reds to be behind the curve, to not see the need for change.

(03-24-2018, 05:13 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: I'm not going to get into it with you on Global warming. I view global warming as an issue that's pretty much out of our control at this point. We can change some things now but whatever we do now will have little to no impact on the negative effects caused global warming. We've done our part. It's time for countries like India and China to do their part. China is pumping out raw coal fumes like we did during the 50- 60's and you're bitching at us like its our fault.

I see China and India as burning and spreading health care problems as well as global warming and global dimming.  It is only a matter of time before they start putting scrubbers on smokestacks as the West did to ease the health problems.  That will ease global dimming considerably and be a last straw on the global warming side.  Global dimming is currently putting breaks on global warming.  It will not be there forever.  I anticipate something like that will be necessary before the youngsters will pressure the decision makers to begin to act fully.  Ecological values will force the reds to get out of blame everyone but ourselves mode finally.

What makes you think blues are supposed to be the ones ahead of the curve? I don't view blues as being ahead of the curve. I view blues as being behind the curve as far as most issues go and issues associated with making a decision to place the cart in front of horse. Blues are still clinging to command and control systems and rigid organizational/bureaucratic structures of old (the industrial age).

Look at your party, is your party the party of ancient Rome with Caesar and a group of Senators (a top down system) making decisions for all people.The party of jolly old England loaded with urban socialites acting like aristocrat's of old. The party of jolly old blue Hollywood, a group of American car manufacturers, a small group of health insurance companies/providers, a small group of big banks, a small group of financial investment firms, a small group of local unions, a small group of government related employees, a group of larger unions primarily related to them. I look at the Democratic system, I see all kinds of similarities with reactionary systems of old ranging from the old Romans to the old Soviets including the Catholic church. The American system of governance wasn't set up to be like any of them.

Not so. The command and control systems in this country are the corporations. The bosses are the ones in control of our top-down system, and that extends to most non-profits and family-owned and smaller businesses as well. Just like Donald Trump so famously does, they hire and fire you, tell what to do on the job, and set your wages and benefits. Meanwhile, traditional religions keeps male adults in power at home too. The government, on the other hand, has its locus of power in the voters, even though the real command and control system (the wealthy, the church and the corporations) wield outsized influence in the government and are able to deceive the red voters into supporting them and their top-down trickle-down policies. 

But the people can and will take their government back in the 2020s. When it acts for the people, the government's command structure acts to control the excesses of the bosses. The bosses complain that this infringes on their "freedom." Deceived red voters believe this tempting tripe. The red politicians promise them lower taxes and traditional values, and the red voters swallow the bait.

As I've told you before, your masters have trained you well grass hopper. You were a boss. Who made the decisions for your business, you or someone else you paid to make the decisions for you? It will be interesting to see what your answer is so I can see what kind of business owner you were at the time.

Honestly, I don't really care about how people run their business's or their households or which sex makes the final decisions. I know women who wear the pants and make the bulk of the decisions for the family. I don't believe traditional religion decides who has the power at home either. The women in my family were quite capable of making decisions themselves and their families. That's how our young women are being raised today. We are raising them to think for themselves and we are preparing them to be decision makers and become strong independent women.

I indeed made decisions which my contract labor or volunteers carried out. And they have to be fair. And I don't mind laws that restrict my activities and decisions if they pollute or otherwise harm society's standards. That's the difference; Republicans want to enable business to hurt others and the environment.

And just who are my masters?

Meanwhile traditional religion does indeed often preach that women should be held back and obey their husbands, and particularly want things like abortion laws and abolition of birth control. Republican candidates offer laws and slogans to protect traditional family values, censor the media, put drug users in jail, and require religious education in public schools, or destroy public schools as Betsy DeVoss is trying to do. Candidates like Roy Moore want to enforce these things. And politicians like Donald Trump believe that men should be free to abuse women too, and they practice this abuse and get away with it.

[Bob Butler 54]

(03-26-2018, 01:08 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(03-25-2018, 07:38 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: Not so. The command and control systems in this country are the corporations. The bosses are the ones in control of our top-down system, and that extends to most non-profits and family-owned and smaller businesses as well. Just like Donald Trump so famously does, they hire and fire you, tell what to do on the job, and set your wages and benefits. Meanwhile, traditional religions keeps male adults in power at home too. The government, on the other hand, has its locus of power in the voters, even though the real command and control system (the wealthy, the church and the corporations) wield outsized influence in the government and are able to deceive the red voters into supporting them and their top-down trickle-down policies. 

But the people can and will take their government back in the 2020s. When it acts for the people, the government's command structure acts to control the excesses of the bosses. The bosses complain that this infringes on their "freedom." Deceived red voters believe this tempting tripe. The red politicians promise them lower taxes and traditional values, and the red voters swallow the bait.

As I've told you before, your masters have trained you well grass hopper. You were a boss. Who made the decisions for your business, you or someone else you paid to make the decisions for you? It will be interesting to see what your answer is so I can see what kind of business owner you were at the time.

Honestly, I don't really care about how people run their business's or their households or which sex makes the final decisions. I know women who wear the pants and make the bulk of the decisions for the family. I don't believe traditional religion decides who has the power at home either. The women in my family were quite capable of making decisions themselves and their families. That's how our young women are being raised today. We are raising them to think for themselves and we are preparing them to be decision makers and become strong independent women.

(Responding more towards Eric, but to both...)

I see the cycle as favoring conservatives most of the time, but it favors the progressives really a lot occasionally.

The old pattern in the Industrial Age was that new values are declared in the awakening, debated and compromised in the unraveling, with trial and error taking place in crisis to implement the new values, and frozen, set in stone during the high.

But the Industrial Age is over, with computers and nukes, at about the end of WW II.  The old patterns are questionable, and never held well outside of Anglo American civilization.

New values were proclaimed in the 1960s awakening, but implemented almost immediately.  The blue GIs made big changes, enough that I am looking to an awakening pattern to dominate values change in the next age.  The red had Future Shock.  Little change has happened since.  We are stuck in a see saw pattern, with the red and blue governments tick off the opposite people and are unable to work their respective agendas.  We have had no regeneracy yet.  While both agendas are defined, pushing them too hard has angered the people of one ilk or the other.  No one value set has dominated.

Almost.  The established politicians of both factions were disliked by their rank and file in 2016.  Division of wealth, to much productivity and global warming are killers.  They are problems that will have to be solved, and the blue people have more chances of real solution.  Refusing to see the problems will not solve them.

But they can delay addressing problems, which makes them worse.

So I am still a Whig.  I see progress, but often progress delayed by the powers that be.