Who Can Beat Trump?

[Classic-Xer]

(09-13-2018, 08:06 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: Big mouth and only half a brain? That sounds like... Donald Trump.

I honor your work ethic. Your politics are horrible.

I have had a bad back all my life, and if I had had a better one I might have been more effective at raw labor, with which if one uses one's mind becomes very skilled labor that pays well. A healthy society fosters and rewards competence. I have no problem with welfare-to-work so long as it leads people into better lives while getting them off the dole. Cheap labor usually shows why it is cheap... and low wages encourage gold-bricking.

Yep, that sounds like Trump when he's fighting or fucking around with the liberals, the liberal media and the liberal base. Right now, he's primarily speaking to Democratic voters who weren't/ aren't happy with the direction of the Democratic party. Evidently, the voters weren't happy about the party being moved more in your direction vs the direction the Republican voters have been moving and intend to continue moving with or without the consent of blue America and Blue America itself. Has the Democratic party been the same since Obama stooped low and used the race card during the 2008 primary? The American right doesn't care about skin tones and gender as much as the liberals.

[pbrower2a]

(09-13-2018, 08:37 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(09-13-2018, 08:06 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: Big mouth and only half a brain? That sounds like... Donald Trump.

I honor your work ethic. Your politics are horrible.

I have had a bad back all my life, and if I had had a better one I might have been more effective at raw labor, with which if one uses one's mind becomes very skilled labor that pays well. A healthy society fosters and rewards competence. I have no problem with welfare-to-work so long as it leads people into better lives while getting them off the dole. Cheap labor usually shows why it is cheap... and low wages encourage gold-bricking.

Yep, that sounds like Trump when he's fighting or fucking around with the liberals, the liberal media and the liberal base. Right now, he's primarily speaking to Democratic voters who weren't/ aren't happy with the direction of the Democratic party. Evidently, the voters weren't happy about the party being moved more in your direction vs the direction the Republican voters have been moving and intend to continue moving with or without the consent of blue America and Blue America itself. Has the Democratic party been the same since Obama stooped low and used the race card during the 2008 primary? The American right doesn't care about skin tones and gender  as much as the liberals.

People are often discovering that the direction of the Republican party is unconscionable -- mirror-image Marxism, recognizing that capitalism is cruel, corrupt, and inequitable and then praising capitalism to the extent that it is cruel, corrupt, and inequitable -- and wanting it to be more so if isn't enough so for the tastes of those best described as mirror-image Marxists?

I did not see Barack Obama playing any race card. If anything, he may have been too moderate on poverty. Maybe that was for 2011 and 2012 after stopping the bleeding in the worst economic downturn since the Great Depression. He backed the banks, which FDR did and Hoover couldn't.

The American Right doesn't care about skin color? Some parts are profoundly racist, but it is safe to say that the rest is more concerned about maintaining and intensifying class privilege until America becomes a pure plutocracy. You know how that goes -- the wealth of a few is a pretext for unbridled indulgence, but a horrible burden for anyone else.

[Classic-Xer]

(09-13-2018, 09:12 PM)pbrower2a Wrote:

(09-13-2018, 08:37 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(09-13-2018, 08:06 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: Big mouth and only half a brain? That sounds like... Donald Trump.

I honor your work ethic. Your politics are horrible.

I have had a bad back all my life, and if I had had a better one I might have been more effective at raw labor, with which if one uses one's mind becomes very skilled labor that pays well. A healthy society fosters and rewards competence. I have no problem with welfare-to-work so long as it leads people into better lives while getting them off the dole. Cheap labor usually shows why it is cheap... and low wages encourage gold-bricking.

Yep, that sounds like Trump when he's fighting or fucking around with the liberals, the liberal media and the liberal base. Right now, he's primarily speaking to Democratic voters who weren't/ aren't happy with the direction of the Democratic party. Evidently, the voters weren't happy about the party being moved more in your direction vs the direction the Republican voters have been moving and intend to continue moving with or without the consent of blue America and Blue America itself. Has the Democratic party been the same since Obama stooped low and used the race card during the 2008 primary? The American right doesn't care about skin tones and gender  as much as the liberals.

People are often discovering that the direction of the Republican party is unconscionable -- mirror-image Marxism, recognizing that capitalism is cruel, corrupt, and inequitable and then praising capitalism to the extent that it is cruel, corrupt, and inequitable -- and wanting it to be more so if isn't enough so for the tastes of those best described as mirror-image Marxists?

I did not see Barack Obama playing any race card. If anything, he may have been too moderate on poverty. Maybe that was for 2011 and 2012 after stopping the bleeding in the worst economic downturn since the Great Depression. He backed the banks, which FDR did and Hoover couldn't.

The American Right doesn't care about skin color? Some parts are profoundly racist, but it is safe to say that the rest is more concerned about maintaining and intensifying class privilege until America becomes a pure plutocracy. You know how that goes -- the wealth of a few is a pretext for unbridled indulgence, but a horrible burden for anyone else.

You didn't see Barack resort to using the race card against the Clinton's and their supporters during the 2008 primary. Yes, capitalism can be cruel but socialism has shown us that it can be cruel too. Yes, some parts of America are racist. What you seem to understand is some of those parts are within blue America and the racists aren't the white one's the blues seem to be so worried about and always railing about as if there's 63 million of them or something stupid like that and so forth. Sounds like a good place for a mindless liberal like Eric to end up or a clueless liberal like you or Bob to wake up one morning find themselves stuck in the middle of for an extended period of time or a binch of DUMB FUCK Democrats find themselves dealing within blue territories.

[Classic-Xer]

(09-13-2018, 09:12 PM)pbrower2a Wrote:

(09-13-2018, 08:37 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(09-13-2018, 08:06 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: Big mouth and only half a brain? That sounds like... Donald Trump.

I honor your work ethic. Your politics are horrible.

I have had a bad back all my life, and if I had had a better one I might have been more effective at raw labor, with which if one uses one's mind becomes very skilled labor that pays well. A healthy society fosters and rewards competence. I have no problem with welfare-to-work so long as it leads people into better lives while getting them off the dole. Cheap labor usually shows why it is cheap... and low wages encourage gold-bricking.

Yep, that sounds like Trump when he's fighting or fucking around with the liberals, the liberal media and the liberal base. Right now, he's primarily speaking to Democratic voters who weren't/ aren't happy with the direction of the Democratic party. Evidently, the voters weren't happy about the party being moved more in your direction vs the direction the Republican voters have been moving and intend to continue moving with or without the consent of blue America and Blue America itself. Has the Democratic party been the same since Obama stooped low and used the race card during the 2008 primary? The American right doesn't care about skin tones and gender  as much as the liberals.

People are often discovering that the direction of the Republican party is unconscionable -- mirror-image Marxism, recognizing that capitalism is cruel, corrupt, and inequitable and then praising capitalism to the extent that it is cruel, corrupt, and inequitable -- and wanting it to be more so if isn't enough so for the tastes of those best described as mirror-image Marxists?

I did not see Barack Obama playing any race card. If anything, he may have been too moderate on poverty. Maybe that was for 2011 and 2012 after stopping the bleeding in the worst economic downturn since the Great Depression. He backed the banks, which FDR did and Hoover couldn't.

The American Right doesn't care about skin color? Some parts are profoundly racist, but it is safe to say that the rest is more concerned about maintaining and intensifying class privilege until America becomes a pure plutocracy. You know how that goes -- the wealth of a few is a pretext for unbridled indulgence, but a horrible burden for anyone else.

You didn't see Barack resort to using the race card against the Clinton's and their supporters during the 2008 primary. Yes, capitalism can be cruel but socialism has shown us that it can be cruel too. Yes, some parts of America are racist. What you don't seem to understand is some of those parts are within blue America and the racists aren't the white one's the blues seem to be so worried about and always railing about as if there's 63 million of them or something stupid like that and so forth. Sounds like a good place for a mindless liberal like Eric to end up or a clueless liberal like you or Bob to wake up one morning find themselves stuck in the middle of for an extended period of time or a bunch of DUMB FUCK Democrats find themselves dealing a nasty crisis that's of their own creation that's largely occurring within blue territories.

[pbrower2a]

(09-14-2018, 08:50 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: You didn't see Barack resort to using the race card against the Clinton's and their supporters during the 2008 primary. Yes, capitalism can be cruel but socialism has shown us that it can be cruel too. Yes, some parts of America are racist. What you seem to understand is some of those parts are within blue America and the racists aren't the white one's the blues seem to be so worried about and always railing about as if there's 63 million of them or something stupid like that and so forth. Sounds like a good place for a mindless liberal like Eric to end up or a clueless liberal like you or Bob to wake up one morning find themselves stuck in the middle of for an extended period of time or a bunch of (profanity redacted) Democrats find themselves dealing a nasty crisis that's of their own creation that's largely occurring within blue territories.

Utterly incoherent. Take a break!

[David Horn]

(09-13-2018, 07:59 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: I use similar terms and similar tactics as the blues. I counter forms of intimidation with an equal but different form of intimidation. If a blue can be a dickhead, I can be an asshole and society for the most part isn't going to have much of a problem with it. The blues don't seem to understand that they act like a bunch of arrogant dickheads who have developed a false sense of security that's associated the cozy blue worlds and cozy blue segments of American that they've created for themselves and their ideology. Outside of their cozy world, the blues are viewed fair game and open to extreme criticism, the use of extreme language and extreme terms and treatment that isn't viewed by most as being nice.

Actually, this is fair, though self-defeating.  Are people with expertise arrogant and condescending?  Of course! Go to any medical specialist and you'll see the same attitudes, and average people have the same attitude about them.  It's easy to overwhelm people if you have specialized knowledge, but don't expect it to be received gladly.  Then, there are the lefties with the same bad characteristics as Trump, who get the same rah-rah treatment among their followers -- even though they know they are liars and cheats. It's easier to hate liars and cheats you personally disfavor than those with whom you agree.  That's human nature … but it's also wrongheaded.  

I don't have a fix for this either.  We have moved into the post-honesty world, where options matter most, and non-facts have as much or more validity as the truth.  We've produced attitude adjustments in the past by suffering through calamities we thought were impossible or ones we believed would trend in a different way.  So barring a new GD or ACW, this may go on indefinitely.

[David Horn]

(09-14-2018, 10:29 PM)pbrower2a Wrote:

(09-14-2018, 08:50 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: You didn't see Barack resort to using the race card against the Clinton's and their supporters during the 2008 primary. Yes, capitalism can be cruel but socialism has shown us that it can be cruel too. Yes, some parts of America are racist. What you seem to understand is some of those parts are within blue America and the racists aren't the white one's the blues seem to be so worried about and always railing about as if there's 63 million of them or something stupid like that and so forth. Sounds like a good place for a mindless liberal like Eric to end up or a clueless liberal like you or Bob to wake up one morning find themselves stuck in the middle of for an extended period of time or a bunch of (profanity redacted) Democrats find themselves dealing a nasty crisis that's of their own creation that's largely occurring within blue territories.

Utterly incoherent. Take a break!

Translation from Rantish (offered as a public service): Blues are just as racist as Reds, but against whites and Christians.  Blues deserve the fate their self-hate promotes.  

There is just enough truth there to make the argument viable, but barely.  Yes, there are racists of all races, and dissing Christians is pretty easy, given their own proclivities. This is why we are moving to the extremes. We are seeking safety in numbers, by allying with those who love what we love and hate what we hate. It's intellectually dishonest, but pretty much what's happening.

[Bob Butler 54]

(09-15-2018, 09:59 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(09-14-2018, 10:29 PM)pbrower2a Wrote:

(09-14-2018, 08:50 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: You didn't see Barack resort to using the race card against the Clinton's and their supporters during the 2008 primary. Yes, capitalism can be cruel but socialism has shown us that it can be cruel too. Yes, some parts of America are racist. What you seem to understand is some of those parts are within blue America and the racists aren't the white one's the blues seem to be so worried about and always railing about as if there's 63 million of them or something stupid like that and so forth. Sounds like a good place for a mindless liberal like Eric to end up or a clueless liberal like you or Bob to wake up one morning find themselves stuck in the middle of for an extended period of time or a bunch of (profanity redacted) Democrats find themselves dealing a nasty crisis that's of their own creation that's largely occurring within blue territories.

Utterly incoherent. Take a break!

Translation from Rantish (offered as a public service): Blues are just as racist as Reds, but against whites and Christians.  Blues deserve the fate their self-hate promotes.  

There is just enough truth there to make the argument viable, but barely.  Yes, there are racists of all races, and dissing Christians is pretty easy, given their own proclivities.  This is why we are moving to the extremes.  We are seeking safety in numbers, by allying with those who love what we love and hate what we hate.  It's intellectually dishonest, but pretty much what's happening.

Good translation.  Don't say that all blues don't listen.

I would say I have nothing against most Christians.  I do oppose those who try to use the government to enforce a religious doctrine.  I do believe in the separation of church and state.  This is not a problem with most Christians.  It is common among blues to leave Christians alone who leave them alone.

In the same way, fighting racism is not racism.  Some blues oppose racism actively and blatantly.  So long as that does not blind them to other problems, I'm fine with that.

Disliking these small red minorities or their actions does not make the blue unstable.

But why would Classic-Xer care if he doesn't feel as the racists and religious action by government people do?  I have long thought reds use an extra degree of indirection when they are being socially unacceptable, being racist, or seeing to enforce religious doctrine.  It sometimes makes one pause before letting them off the hook.

[Classic-Xer]

(09-14-2018, 10:29 PM)pbrower2a Wrote:

(09-14-2018, 08:50 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: You didn't see Barack resort to using the race card against the Clinton's and their supporters during the 2008 primary. Yes, capitalism can be cruel but socialism has shown us that it can be cruel too. Yes, some parts of America are racist. What you seem to understand is some of those parts are within blue America and the racists aren't the white one's the blues seem to be so worried about and always railing about as if there's 63 million of them or something stupid like that and so forth. Sounds like a good place for a mindless liberal like Eric to end up or a clueless liberal like you or Bob to wake up one morning find themselves stuck in the middle of for an extended period of time or a bunch of (profanity redacted) Democrats find themselves dealing a nasty crisis that's of their own creation that's largely occurring within blue territories.

Utterly incoherent. Take a break!

This seems to be a typical response that's coming from the mouth of a useful idiot.

[Bob Butler 54]

(09-15-2018, 04:26 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(09-14-2018, 10:29 PM)pbrower2a Wrote:

(09-14-2018, 08:50 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: You didn't see Barack resort to using the race card against the Clinton's and their supporters during the 2008 primary. Yes, capitalism can be cruel but socialism has shown us that it can be cruel too. Yes, some parts of America are racist. What you seem to understand is some of those parts are within blue America and the racists aren't the white one's the blues seem to be so worried about and always railing about as if there's 63 million of them or something stupid like that and so forth. Sounds like a good place for a mindless liberal like Eric to end up or a clueless liberal like you or Bob to wake up one morning find themselves stuck in the middle of for an extended period of time or a bunch of (profanity redacted) Democrats find themselves dealing a nasty crisis that's of their own creation that's largely occurring within blue territories.

Utterly incoherent. Take a break!

This seems to be a typical response that's coming from the mouth of a useful idiot.

I too needed the translation. I didn't bother to make sense of it. The incoherence before translation may be part of the reason for the lack of response, but I don't see much response since.

[Bob Butler 54]

(09-15-2018, 09:59 AM)David Horn Wrote: Yes, there are racists of all races, and dissing Christians is pretty easy, given their own proclivities.  This is why we are moving to the extremes.  We are seeking safety in numbers, by allying with those who love what we love and hate what we hate.  It's intellectually dishonest, but pretty much what's happening.

I would watch the above.  I am beginning to see the conservatives and autocratic folk as clinging tightly to what Kinser calls a tribe, and rejecting the idea that all men, all tribes, should be equal.  What you can do to make things better for people like you would be fine by those values.

I am dubious.

[David Horn]

(09-15-2018, 09:45 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(09-15-2018, 09:59 AM)David Horn Wrote: Yes, there are racists of all races, and dissing Christians is pretty easy, given their own proclivities.  This is why we are moving to the extremes.  We are seeking safety in numbers, by allying with those who love what we love and hate what we hate.  It's intellectually dishonest, but pretty much what's happening.

I would watch the above.  I am beginning to see the conservatives and autocratic folk as clinging tightly to what Kinser calls a tribe, and rejecting the idea that all men, all tribes, should be equal.  What you can do to make things better for people like you would be fine by those values.

I am dubious.

It's the autocrat playbook:

• Find a disaffected group and claim them as your own
  
• Be certain that the word gets out that you and only you can be their champion
  
• Expect fealty as your due, since you are 'sacrificing for them'
  
• Rinse and repeat.
  

Trump is playing this song on heavy rotation.  The only question: when, if ever, does it just get old?  If the answer is 'never', then we are in serious danger of open violence, with Trump standing, arms folded, and nodding to the crowd.  Trump may lead a minority, but so did George Washington.  There is no inherent strength I numbers in the difference in intensity is too great.

[pbrower2a]

(09-16-2018, 07:37 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(09-15-2018, 09:45 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(09-15-2018, 09:59 AM)David Horn Wrote: Yes, there are racists of all races, and dissing Christians is pretty easy, given their own proclivities.  This is why we are moving to the extremes.  We are seeking safety in numbers, by allying with those who love what we love and hate what we hate.  It's intellectually dishonest, but pretty much what's happening.

I would watch the above.  I am beginning to see the conservatives and autocratic folk as clinging tightly to what Kinser calls a tribe, and rejecting the idea that all men, all tribes, should be equal.  What you can do to make things better for people like you would be fine by those values.

I am dubious.

It's the autocrat playbook:

• Find a disaffected group and claim them as your own
  
• Be certain that the word gets out that you and only you can be their champion
  
• Expect fealty as your due, since you are 'sacrificing for them'
  
• Rinse and repeat.
  

Trump is playing this song on heavy rotation.  The only question: when, if ever, does it just get old?  If the answer is 'never', then we are in serious danger of open violence, with Trump standing, arms folded, and nodding to the crowd.  Trump may lead a minority, but so did George Washington.  There is no inherent strength I numbers in the difference in intensity is too great.

Now here is the counter-play:

• Find disaffected groups and and tell them that they can hope only for incremental change, most of it the result of their personal efforts
  
• Be certain that the word gets out that such is all that can work
  
• Stick to it, and laud the results when they happen. Give credit to those who do the work.
  
• Rinse and repeat.
  

This is the FDR way of doing things. Let the violence be shovel against earth, brick against mortar, and hammer upon nail. It solves some problems -- maybe not all, but enough. Maybe slowly, but it can organize people who have been milling about without purpose.

We might need some CCC and WPA programs to get some people -- the people that the American economy forgot. Maybe some of them will need remedial education. Fine. Let them have it.

Nobody needs make wild promises, but we can solve some problems that we neglected in the 3T.

One must admit: the demagogue who wins power is the one who makes the wildest promises. Once in, he has power without responsibility. Donald Trump is the classic demagogue, and it is astonishing that someone like he could win enough votes in America.

[Classic-Xer]

(09-15-2018, 09:31 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(09-15-2018, 04:26 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(09-14-2018, 10:29 PM)pbrower2a Wrote:

(09-14-2018, 08:50 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: You didn't see Barack resort to using the race card against the Clinton's and their supporters during the 2008 primary. Yes, capitalism can be cruel but socialism has shown us that it can be cruel too. Yes, some parts of America are racist. What you seem to understand is some of those parts are within blue America and the racists aren't the white one's the blues seem to be so worried about and always railing about as if there's 63 million of them or something stupid like that and so forth. Sounds like a good place for a mindless liberal like Eric to end up or a clueless liberal like you or Bob to wake up one morning find themselves stuck in the middle of for an extended period of time or a bunch of (profanity redacted) Democrats find themselves dealing a nasty crisis that's of their own creation that's largely occurring within blue territories.

Utterly incoherent. Take a break!

This seems to be a typical response that's coming from the mouth of a useful idiot.

I too needed the translation.  I didn't bother to make sense of it.  The incoherence before translation may be part of the reason for the lack of response, but I don't see much response since.

He got the jest of it. Blues are as bigoted as the reds that blues claim to be bigots these days. Blues probably represent/ attract more racist people with their anti-white rhetoric and their tolerance for racist rhetoric spewing from the mouths of leaders and supporters directly who are now directly associated with them these day than the reds do these days as well. Blues are always worried about the whites or blaming the whites or calling them racists without putting much or any thought into other reasons and motives. I don't know why the blues are so worried about the whites when the majority of them have already shown you that they don't have much interest in the blues. The blues issues as they relate to the needs and expectations associated with all their minority interest groups or the blue concerns related to the issue of inadequate funding associated with their long standing programs, newer programs added since the 60's, global programs and so forth.

Like I've eluded to many times, as the Democratic era of big government draws closer to it's eventual end and the realities of the extent of financial obligations and the eventual impacts of the costs associated with the debt begin to hit Americans, blue America is probably the place you want to be living or be around at the time. I'm sorry my writing skills ain't the greatest and you have trouble reading/following my written posts. It would sure be easier if we were talking. BTW, the chances of that occurring is none. I have no interest in speaking with liberals at all. From what I've learned speaking to them, the liberals next door ain't much better or much smarter or much different than the liberals here.

Also, Trump appeals to working class voters like a portion of my friends who used to automatically vote Democratic in the past. I'm not a working class voter. I'm a business minded voter. I'm a libertarian minded voter. I'm an American minded voter. This should give you a clue about my values. The positions I've taken against liberals, the views I have shown you and the liberals I've taken a hard line and eventually eliminated should have given you a clue about my virtues as a person. Basically, if you're a crap human, you shouldn't expect to be treated like a decent person. I'm not bound to blue rules that largely pertain to blue social policy or proper blue edicate like you preach but have failed to uphold/ adhere to many times.

Like you, I'm not all that impacted by some factory closing down and moving over seas or shrinking job markets for those want to be and want to remain working class people because you and others with higher income and higher paying jobs are my primary customers and the primary people who live in our areas. I do business in the metro area. I do business with lawyers, doctors, engineers, entrepreneurs, tradesmen, business people of all types, small/mid size business owners and so forth. I used to have Democratic supporters attacking me and blaming me for all the middle class job losses because I voted Republican during the Bush years. Sean Love comes to mind. At the time, I countered the attacks with a reminder that Democrats are the ones who are supposed to be the ones looking out for the interests of Democratic working class voters. At the time, I viewed that as more of a Democratic issue than a Republican issue. Evidently, the public sector working class voters must have grown enough to replace them as far as political importance and their financial interests and their future interests are concerned or something.

[Classic-Xer]

(09-16-2018, 11:03 AM)pbrower2a Wrote:

(09-16-2018, 07:37 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(09-15-2018, 09:45 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(09-15-2018, 09:59 AM)David Horn Wrote: Yes, there are racists of all races, and dissing Christians is pretty easy, given their own proclivities.  This is why we are moving to the extremes.  We are seeking safety in numbers, by allying with those who love what we love and hate what we hate.  It's intellectually dishonest, but pretty much what's happening.

I would watch the above.  I am beginning to see the conservatives and autocratic folk as clinging tightly to what Kinser calls a tribe, and rejecting the idea that all men, all tribes, should be equal.  What you can do to make things better for people like you would be fine by those values.

I am dubious.

It's the autocrat playbook:

• Find a disaffected group and claim them as your own
  
• Be certain that the word gets out that you and only you can be their champion
  
• Expect fealty as your due, since you are 'sacrificing for them'
  
• Rinse and repeat.
  

Trump is playing this song on heavy rotation.  The only question: when, if ever, does it just get old?  If the answer is 'never', then we are in serious danger of open violence, with Trump standing, arms folded, and nodding to the crowd.  Trump may lead a minority, but so did George Washington.  There is no inherent strength I numbers in the difference in intensity is too great.

Now here is the counter-play:

• Find disaffected groups and and tell them that they can hope only for incremental change, most of it the result of their personal efforts
  
• Be certain that the word gets out that such is all that can work
  
• Stick to it, and laud the results when they happen. Give credit to those who do the work.
  
• Rinse and repeat.
  

This is the FDR way of doing things. Let the violence be shovel against earth, brick against mortar, and hammer upon nail. It solves some problems -- maybe not all, but enough. Maybe slowly, but it can organize people who have been milling about without purpose.

We might need some CCC and WPA programs to get some people -- the people that the American economy forgot. Maybe some of them will need remedial education. Fine. Let them have it.

Nobody needs make wild promises, but we can solve some problems that we neglected in the 3T.

One must admit: the demagogue who wins power is the one who makes the wildest promises. Once in, he has power without responsibility. Donald Trump is the classic demagogue, and it is astonishing that someone like he could win enough votes in America.

Why do blues always believe that we need a government approach vs passing a simple tax cut that accomplishes the same thing?

[pbrower2a]

(09-17-2018, 01:49 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(09-16-2018, 11:03 AM)pbrower2a Wrote:

(09-16-2018, 07:37 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(09-15-2018, 09:45 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(09-15-2018, 09:59 AM)David Horn Wrote: Yes, there are racists of all races, and dissing Christians is pretty easy, given their own proclivities.  This is why we are moving to the extremes.  We are seeking safety in numbers, by allying with those who love what we love and hate what we hate.  It's intellectually dishonest, but pretty much what's happening.

I would watch the above.  I am beginning to see the conservatives and autocratic folk as clinging tightly to what Kinser calls a tribe, and rejecting the idea that all men, all tribes, should be equal.  What you can do to make things better for people like you would be fine by those values.

I am dubious.

It's the autocrat playbook:

• Find a disaffected group and claim them as your own
  
• Be certain that the word gets out that you and only you can be their champion
  
• Expect fealty as your due, since you are 'sacrificing for them'
  
• Rinse and repeat.
  

Trump is playing this song on heavy rotation.  The only question: when, if ever, does it just get old?  If the answer is 'never', then we are in serious danger of open violence, with Trump standing, arms folded, and nodding to the crowd.  Trump may lead a minority, but so did George Washington.  There is no inherent strength I numbers in the difference in intensity is too great.

Now here is the counter-play:

• Find disaffected groups and and tell them that they can hope only for incremental change, most of it the result of their personal efforts
  
• Be certain that the word gets out that such is all that can work
  
• Stick to it, and laud the results when they happen. Give credit to those who do the work.
  
• Rinse and repeat.
  

This is the FDR way of doing things. Let the violence be shovel against earth, brick against mortar, and hammer upon nail. It solves some problems -- maybe not all, but enough. Maybe slowly, but it can organize people who have been milling about without purpose.

We might need some CCC and WPA programs to get some people -- the people that the American economy forgot. Maybe some of them will need remedial education. Fine. Let them have it.

Nobody needs make wild promises, but we can solve some problems that we neglected in the 3T.

One must admit: the demagogue who wins power is the one who makes the wildest promises. Once in, he has power without responsibility. Donald Trump is the classic demagogue, and it is astonishing that someone like he could win enough votes in America.

Why do blues always believe that we need a government approach vs passing a simple tax cut that accomplishes the same thing?

What Donald Trump and the GOP leadership 'give' is huge tax cuts followed by a huge tax increase in the form of tariffs, essentially sales taxes upon imports. What Trump gave to the Master Class he took back from everyone else.

If taxes were high enough to preclude private investment in plant and equipment,  then tax cuts would in themselves foster such private investment. That was not the problem in the 1920s or the Double-Zero decade, when taxes were low and economic inequality was high, and much of the investment went into speculative activities that soured when the speculative activity ran out of suckers. In the late 1920s  and in the first half of the Double-Zero decade, investment was going to an inordinate degree into real estate bubbles.

Government has a role in a democratic society for facilitating useful investments that private industry could never do well or equitably. An example is K-12 education. I know, I know --- manor lords and slave-owning planters did train their serfs and slaves ... to be serfs and slaves. We all benefit from mass literacy and competence with arithmetic. Who would pay -- except us all? Civics? The problem is that what might be good for us all (an electorate that can reject demagogues like Hugo Chavez or Donald Trump) is hard to link to any personal gain. We generally think democracy a good thing, as non-democracies almost invariably treat the masses badly. But if you are to rely upon employers to do the education for limited purposes -- serfs and slaves do not vote and must never be allowed to vote if they are to remain serfs and slaves.

[Eric the Green]

(09-17-2018, 01:49 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(09-16-2018, 11:03 AM)pbrower2a Wrote:

(09-16-2018, 07:37 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(09-15-2018, 09:45 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(09-15-2018, 09:59 AM)David Horn Wrote: Yes, there are racists of all races, and dissing Christians is pretty easy, given their own proclivities.  This is why we are moving to the extremes.  We are seeking safety in numbers, by allying with those who love what we love and hate what we hate.  It's intellectually dishonest, but pretty much what's happening.

I would watch the above.  I am beginning to see the conservatives and autocratic folk as clinging tightly to what Kinser calls a tribe, and rejecting the idea that all men, all tribes, should be equal.  What you can do to make things better for people like you would be fine by those values.

I am dubious.

It's the autocrat playbook:

• Find a disaffected group and claim them as your own
  
• Be certain that the word gets out that you and only you can be their champion
  
• Expect fealty as your due, since you are 'sacrificing for them'
  
• Rinse and repeat.
  

Trump is playing this song on heavy rotation.  The only question: when, if ever, does it just get old?  If the answer is 'never', then we are in serious danger of open violence, with Trump standing, arms folded, and nodding to the crowd.  Trump may lead a minority, but so did George Washington.  There is no inherent strength I numbers in the difference in intensity is too great.

Now here is the counter-play:

• Find disaffected groups and and tell them that they can hope only for incremental change, most of it the result of their personal efforts
  
• Be certain that the word gets out that such is all that can work
  
• Stick to it, and laud the results when they happen. Give credit to those who do the work.
  
• Rinse and repeat.
  

This is the FDR way of doing things. Let the violence be shovel against earth, brick against mortar, and hammer upon nail. It solves some problems -- maybe not all, but enough. Maybe slowly, but it can organize people who have been milling about without purpose.

We might need some CCC and WPA programs to get some people -- the people that the American economy forgot. Maybe some of them will need remedial education. Fine. Let them have it.

Nobody needs make wild promises, but we can solve some problems that we neglected in the 3T.

One must admit: the demagogue who wins power is the one who makes the wildest promises. Once in, he has power without responsibility. Donald Trump is the classic demagogue, and it is astonishing that someone like he could win enough votes in America.

Why do blues always believe that we need a government approach vs passing a simple tax cut that accomplishes the same thing?

Because trickle-down doesn't trickle.

[Eric the Green]

(09-17-2018, 12:00 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(09-15-2018, 09:31 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(09-15-2018, 04:26 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(09-14-2018, 10:29 PM)pbrower2a Wrote:

(09-14-2018, 08:50 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: You didn't see Barack resort to using the race card against the Clinton's and their supporters during the 2008 primary. Yes, capitalism can be cruel but socialism has shown us that it can be cruel too. Yes, some parts of America are racist. What you seem to understand is some of those parts are within blue America and the racists aren't the white one's the blues seem to be so worried about and always railing about as if there's 63 million of them or something stupid like that and so forth. Sounds like a good place for a mindless liberal like Eric to end up or a clueless liberal like you or Bob to wake up one morning find themselves stuck in the middle of for an extended period of time or a bunch of (profanity redacted) Democrats find themselves dealing a nasty crisis that's of their own creation that's largely occurring within blue territories.

Utterly incoherent. Take a break!

This seems to be a typical response that's coming from the mouth of a useful idiot.

I too needed the translation.  I didn't bother to make sense of it.  The incoherence before translation may be part of the reason for the lack of response, but I don't see much response since.

He got the jest of it. Blues are as bigoted as the reds that blues claim to be bigots these days. Blues probably represent/ attract more racist people with their anti-white rhetoric and their tolerance for racist rhetoric spewing from the mouths of leaders and supporters directly who are now directly associated with them these day than the reds do these days as well. Blues are always worried about the whites or blaming the whites or calling them racists without putting much or any thought into other reasons and motives. I don't know why the blues are so worried about the whites when the majority of them have already shown you that they don't have much interest in the blues. The blues issues as they relate to the needs and expectations associated with all their minority interest groups or the blue concerns related to the issue of inadequate funding associated with their long standing programs, newer programs added since the 60's, global programs and so forth.

Like I've eluded to many times, as the Democratic era of big government draws closer to it's eventual end and the realities of the extent of financial obligations and the eventual impacts of the costs associated with the debt begin to hit Americans, blue America is probably the place you want to be living or be around at the time. I'm sorry my writing skills ain't the greatest and you have trouble reading/following my written posts. It would sure be easier if we were talking. BTW, the chances of that occurring is none. I have no interest in speaking with liberals at all. From what I've learned speaking to them, the liberals next door ain't much better or much smarter or much different than the liberals here.

Also, Trump appeals to working class voters like a portion of my friends who used to automatically vote Democratic in the past. I'm not a working class voter. I'm a business minded voter. I'm a libertarian minded voter. I'm an American minded voter. This should give you a clue about my values. The positions I've taken against liberals, the views I have shown you and the liberals I've taken a hard line and eventually eliminated should have given you a clue about my virtues as a person. Basically, if you're a crap human, you shouldn't expect to be treated like a decent person. I'm not bound to blue rules that largely pertain to blue social policy or proper blue edicate like you preach but have failed to uphold/ adhere to many times.

Like you, I'm not all that impacted by some factory closing down and moving over seas or shrinking job markets for those want to be and want to remain working class people because you and others with higher income and higher paying jobs are my primary customers and the primary people who live in our areas. I do business in the metro area. I do business with lawyers, doctors, engineers, entrepreneurs, tradesmen, business people of all types, small/mid size business owners and so forth. I used to have Democratic supporters attacking me and blaming me for all the middle class job losses because I voted Republican during the Bush years. Sean Love comes to mind. At the time, I countered the attacks with a reminder that Democrats are the ones who are supposed to be the ones looking out for the interests of Democratic working class voters. At the time, I viewed that as more of a Democratic issue than a Republican issue. Evidently, the public sector working class voters must have grown enough to replace them as far as political importance and their financial interests and their future interests are concerned or something.

The reds don't have any motives for their political positions. It's all based on prejudice. Welfare programs are looked upon as support for lazy non-whites, not as a protection program for all people. If they looked upon welfare without prejudice, they would see that it benefits themselves and all of us, and that the taxes that they pay are worth paying for this protection, and for economic growth through better infrastructure and education that benefits us all. 

Blues don't look upon bosses as people looking out for us. Blues look upon bosses as out to make money-- and frequently do so at the expense of others if they are not taxed and regulated properly. If reds were looking after their own economic interests, they would see the bosses in exactly the same way. Instead, they vote for the bosses, based on their prejudices against poor, non-white people. And then they wonder why some blues call them racists.

[pbrower2a]

(09-17-2018, 12:00 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(09-15-2018, 09:31 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(09-15-2018, 04:26 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(09-14-2018, 10:29 PM)pbrower2a Wrote:

(09-14-2018, 08:50 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: You didn't see Barack resort to using the race card against the Clinton's and their supporters during the 2008 primary. Yes, capitalism can be cruel but socialism has shown us that it can be cruel too. Yes, some parts of America are racist. What you seem to understand is some of those parts are within blue America and the racists aren't the white one's the blues seem to be so worried about and always railing about as if there's 63 million of them or something stupid like that and so forth. Sounds like a good place for a mindless liberal like Eric to end up or a clueless liberal like you or Bob to wake up one morning find themselves stuck in the middle of for an extended period of time or a bunch of (profanity redacted) Democrats find themselves dealing a nasty crisis that's of their own creation that's largely occurring within blue territories.

Utterly incoherent. Take a break!

This seems to be a typical response that's coming from the mouth of a useful idiot.

I too needed the translation.  I didn't bother to make sense of it.  The incoherence before translation may be part of the reason for the lack of response, but I don't see much response since.

He got the jest of it. Blues are as bigoted as the reds that blues claim to be bigots these days. Blues probably represent/ attract more racist people with their anti-white rhetoric and their tolerance for racist rhetoric spewing from the mouths of leaders and supporters directly who are now directly associated with them these day than the reds do these days as well. Blues are always worried about the whites or blaming the whites or calling them racists without putting much or any thought into other reasons and motives. I don't know why the blues are so worried about the whites when the majority of them have already shown you that they don't have much interest in the blues. The blues issues as they relate to the needs and expectations associated with all their minority interest groups or the blue concerns related to the issue of inadequate funding associated with their long standing programs, newer programs added since the 60's, global programs and so forth.

Anti-white? White people are still the majority, and they have the majority of the land and the financial assets. So most non-whites must be careful about what they say if they want to hold a job. And let me tell you that non-whites are willing to have white spouses or in-laws.

The problem isn't race; it is social class, with class privilege as the cause of difference of most economic results. A mediocrity who owns some apartment blocks might make far more money than the well-educated, creative people who live therein.

Quote:Like I've eluded to many times, as the Democratic era of big government draws closer to it's eventual end and the realities of the extent of financial obligations and the eventual impacts of the costs associated with the debt begin to hit Americans, blue America is probably the place you want to be living or be around at the time. I'm sorry my writing skills ain't the greatest and you have trouble reading/following my written posts. It would sure be easier if we were talking. BTW, the chances of that occurring is none. I have no interest in speaking with liberals at all. From what I've learned speaking to them, the liberals next door ain't much better or much smarter or much different than the liberals here.

No, one era transforms into another. One set of priorities replaces another, which explains why a group such as the NAACP is still very much in existence. Founded on the one hundredth birthday of Abraham Lincoln (February 12, 1909), it obviously can't have exactly the same political and economic concerns that it had then. It is going strong.

I can assure you of this: people are not liberals because they are smarter. I can also tell you that many conservatives are beginning to find President Trump extremely objectionable.

Quote:Also, Trump appeals to working class voters like a portion of my friends who used to automatically vote Democratic in the past. I'm not a working class voter. I'm a business minded voter. I'm a libertarian minded voter. I'm an American minded voter. This should give you a clue about my values. The positions I've taken against liberals, the views I have shown you and the liberals I've taken a hard line and eventually eliminated should have given you a clue about my virtues as a person. Basically, if you're a crap human, you shouldn't expect to be treated like a decent person. I'm not bound to blue rules that largely pertain to blue social policy or proper blue edicate like you preach but have failed to uphold/ adhere to many times.

Trump has given a huge tax cut to the economic elites and since imposed a tariff, basically a sales tax upon imported goods or imported components of goods supposedly made here. Anyone not filthy rich who voted for Trump has been had. (It is the same with people who saw through him and voted for Hillary Clinton, but I failed to realize how bad he would be.

If we had gotten another Ronald Reagan we would be far better off. As a start, nobody ever had any doubt of the loyalty of President Reagan when he was meeting with Soviet leadership. Reagan never disparaged our democratic allies in favor of despots. Reagan could back down after a rhetorical goof, unlike Trump, who faults the character of people who disagree with him. Reagan could say a kind word utterly alien to Trump's MO.

Donald Trump shows beyond any doubt that with great wealth or institutional power, one can be a thoroughly awful person and be admired and obeyed out of fear. He is a pathological liar, as says Jay Sekulow, legal sidekick of the cranky Pat Robertson (The 700 Club, which I can't stand to watch for long).

Contrast Obama: what he said checked against fact. Practically all accounts suggest that he is a decent person in treating subordinates at all levels. He might not have been the dream choice for dealing with terrorists until you realize that he paid attention to military intelligence to the extent that he could commission the demise of Osama bin Laden. Terrorism against the United States suddenly became a very bad idea.

Quote:Like you, I'm not all that impacted by some factory closing down and moving over seas or shrinking job markets for those want to be and want to remain working class people because you and others with higher income and higher paying jobs are my primary customers and the primary people who live in our areas. I do business in the metro area. I do business with lawyers, doctors, engineers, entrepreneurs, tradesmen, business people of all types, small/mid size business owners and so forth. I used to have Democratic supporters attacking me and blaming me for all the middle class job losses because I voted Republican during the Bush years. Sean Love comes to mind. At the time, I countered the attacks with a reminder that Democrats are the ones who are supposed to be the ones looking out for the interests of Democratic working class voters. At the time, I viewed that as more of a Democratic issue than a Republican issue. Evidently, the public sector working class voters must have grown enough to replace them as far as political importance and their financial interests and their future interests are concerned or something.

Guess what: I am broke. I got my debit card turned down for gasoline. I am using SNAP, and I am getting treatment for a very bad back. I may be culturally middle-class or even upper-middle class, but money is everything in America even in the fairer times. If I can get my back treated well, maybe I can get a warehouse job that pays far better than substitute school teaching.

My character is not going to turn on a dime at my age.

[Bob Butler 54]

(09-17-2018, 03:42 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: Blues don't look upon bosses as people looking out for us. Blues look upon bosses as out to make money-- and frequently do so at the expense of others if they are not taxed and regulated properly. If reds were looking after their own economic interests, they would see the bosses in exactly the same way. Instead, they vote for the bosses, based on their prejudices against poor, non-white people. And then they wonder why some blues call them racists.

This was not always the case.  My father joined the Bell System just after World War II.  He was from a New England Telephone family, with a grandfather, father, mother and uncle once hired by the company.  It was said that once you were hired by a Bell company, they would look after you for life, and it went beyond just one generation.  My second job was with New England Telephone, a summer job as a janitor before going off to college.

He told a bunch of stories, including that of an immigrant who died with no family on this side of the Atlantic.  Her supervising operator became family, did every thing expected of family to make the funeral arrangements.  People then took care of coworkers, and the big corporations encouraged it.

I was let go decades later as an engineer just before becoming vested in health care.  My uncle was also let go, only to be rehired as a contractor, someone expendable during a downturn.  The idea of a two way loyalty with the employee was long forgotten.  Ironically, I was let go by Verizon.  They had recently bought my division of GTE.

Trumps slogan is about making America great again.  I suspect he doesn't know or care about what once did make America great.  The commies made a joke of it.  "They pretend to pay us, and we pretend to work."  That is not the way to greatness.