Election 2020

[CH86]

(08-22-2020, 02:14 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(08-22-2020, 01:26 PM)CH86 Wrote: Young People are uniting AGAINST wall street and the establishment. While most of us under 50 have completely different political views than core Xers like Classic-Xer; our views are quite a bit closer to his own than they are to your average boomer establishment politician, or younger bootlicker establishment politician.

The DNC has made it crystal clear during this last primary that anyone who is any kind of populist (either left or right), anyone who doesn't support free market fundamentalism or anyone who doesn't support radical censorship: The DNC has said quite clearly that we were not welcome in the democratic party. If anyone has any inspiration for change and positive reforms and positive increases in the American people's freedom; then they must make their political home elsewhere certainly not in the halls of the DNC. The democratic party is now the home of power hungry establishment boomers who fancy themselves an aristocracy and/or boomer and teacher's pet SJW control-freaks.

Getting rid of the boomers in Washington DC solves most of this country's problems and Trump is the only one so far who has made any progress in that regard.

Unfortunately, Trump is doing best at getting rid of the Republicans which are being forced to be loyal to him.  The first priority is putting the traditional American virtues on the ballot that Obama said are on the ballot.  That enables the Democrats.

The Democrats have given lip service to including part of the radical agenda, such as climate change and bridges.  They have claimed the elites and corporations must pay their fair share of taxes, and repealing the Trump tax cuts for the rich.  We will have to see if they are serious about that.

Today's DNC is pro-wall street and pro-corporate control, it is also pro-cultural censorship (with the exception of expressions of cultural decadence) and is thus is against the average everyday americans. Current democrat leaders voter profile are those who have cradle to grave pipelines of wealth, Boomers who already got theirs and are so selfish that they want to knock down the later and hollowed out underclass districts who are dependent on the former when it was the first two groups who are responsible for breaking down classes in the first place, thus creating the dependency cycle in the first place; due to outsourcing and the boomers participation in the drug trade which flooded city neighborhoods and hollowed them out orginially back when the boomers were in their own young adult years.

[Bob Butler 54]

(08-22-2020, 03:50 PM)CH86 Wrote: Today's DNC is pro-wall street and pro-corporate control, it is also pro-cultural censorship (with the exception of expressions of cultural decadence) and is thus is against the average everyday americans. Current democrat leaders voter profile are those who have cradle to grave pipelines of wealth, Boomers who already got theirs and are so selfish that they want to knock down the later and hollowed out underclass districts who are dependent on the former when it was the first two groups who are responsible for breaking down classes in the first place, thus creating the dependency cycle in the first place; due to outsourcing and the boomers participation in the drug trade which flooded city neighborhoods and hollowed them out orginially back when the boomers were in their own young adult years.

The Democrats at least gives lip service to the workers and minorities. We will have to see if they give more than lip service, that their picking up of the radical wing’s values and agenda is more than an empty promise At least they are giving a campaign promise level commitment.

The Republicans have a traditional problem with elites and racism. Trump has added self profit, narcissism and greed. That last has come to the fore and gives the Democrats a chance to live up to their radical wing (Warren and Sanders) values.

I will admit that in the middle of the unraveling the Democrats lost their way badly. During that time campaign finance (bribes) was more important than serving their voters. Jobs went overseas. Benefits were cut and unions weakened. Supposedly they have seen the light. Me, I won’t be content until they prove it by pushing things through congress. Until then, I’ll just note the campaign promises and do what I can to hold them to it.

Cultural decadence? This means it is OK to eat spaghetti, or drink green beer on St Paddy’s day? It is not OK to like Mexican or Asian cuisine? Some conservatives show their prejudice by trying to dictate which immigrant traditional cultural elements they accept. Yours is one of the more blatant examples.

I agree that too many politicians of both parties serve too well the cradle to grave rich. Neither have focused enough on serving the working man or minorities. As I said, the Republicans with their links to elites and racists have the larger problem. The period from FDR to LBJ was the last time when a dominant party focused on first workers (the New Deal) then the minorities (The Civil Rights movement). Unfortunately, this resulted in the Republicans picking up the racist vote. There were more racists than minorities, and the result was to make America not great anymore. The Republican schtick during the unraveling is that it was best not to support the working man if it hurt minorities the most.

But the key is that character, compassion, decency, science and democracy stay the dominant center of the ballot. Once we get a return to those, we can see about the influence of the elites on the government, allowing all minority culture, law and order, and the rest. The Republicans will have to rebuild their party, with the elites, the racists and the true conservatives fighting it out. The Democrats have to give more than lip service to what they promised at their convention. If either succeed we’ll be OK. If both succeed, we can have some interesting debates. Once the next unraveling comes, you can even have your greedy self centered culture back for a time.

But overall your analysis is all over the place. You are far more concerned with keeping your ideology than paying attention to reality.

[pbrower2a]

(08-22-2020, 03:50 PM)CH86 Wrote:

(08-22-2020, 02:14 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(08-22-2020, 01:26 PM)CH86 Wrote: Young People are uniting AGAINST wall street and the establishment. While most of us under 50 have completely different political views than core Xers like Classic-Xer; our views are quite a bit closer to his own than they are to your average boomer establishment politician, or younger bootlicker establishment politician.

The DNC has made it crystal clear during this last primary that anyone who is any kind of populist (either left or right), anyone who doesn't support free market fundamentalism or anyone who doesn't support radical censorship: The DNC has said quite clearly that we were not welcome in the democratic party. If anyone has any inspiration for change and positive reforms and positive increases in the American people's freedom; then they must make their political home elsewhere certainly not in the halls of the DNC. The democratic party is now the home of power hungry establishment boomers who fancy themselves an aristocracy and/or boomer and teacher's pet SJW control-freaks.

Getting rid of the boomers in Washington DC solves most of this country's problems and Trump is the only one so far who has made any progress in that regard.

Unfortunately, Trump is doing best at getting rid of the Republicans which are being forced to be loyal to him.  The first priority is putting the traditional American virtues on the ballot that Obama said are on the ballot.  That enables the Democrats.

The Democrats have given lip service to including part of the radical agenda, such as climate change and bridges.  They have claimed the elites and corporations must pay their fair share of taxes, and repealing the Trump tax cuts for the rich.  We will have to see if they are serious about that.

Today's DNC is pro-wall street and pro-corporate control, it is also pro-cultural censorship (with the exception of expressions of cultural decadence) and is thus is against the average everyday americans. Current democrat leaders voter profile are those who have cradle to grave pipelines of wealth, Boomers who already got theirs and are so selfish that they want to knock down the later and hollowed out underclass districts who are dependent on the former when it was the first two groups who are responsible for breaking down classes in the first place, thus creating the dependency cycle in the first place; due to outsourcing and the boomers participation in the drug trade which flooded city neighborhoods and hollowed them out orginially back when the boomers were in their own young adult years.

...as opposed to the Republicans who would gladly eviscerate unions, pit minorities against each other.

You tell me -- Republicans have taken over several states in the Mountain and Deep South.... and what have they done except to make it easier for people already rich to get even richer at the expense of everyone else? 

Boomers split neatly into elites who are as you describe, basically a Soviet-style nomenklatura that ensures that nobody else has a chance but instead has a duty to make those already filthy rich even filthier-richer... and the other side, people more normal in their dreams and methods. I could make the case that late-wave Boomers have spent most of their entire working lives under such people and have paid a high price in denied opportunities and in being overworked and underpaid.

[CH86]

Sorry PBrower but democrats have fully embraced the corporate elites while the the GOP is becoming less and less Pro-corporate by the day. It is the GOP that is emerging as the populist party, not the DNC. The DNC becoming a pro-governing classes political party.

[Bob Butler 54]

(08-22-2020, 08:49 PM)CH86 Wrote: Sorry PBrower but democrats have fully embraced the corporate elites while the the GOP is becoming less and less Pro-corporate by the day. It is the GOP that is emerging as the populist party, not the DNC. The DNC becoming a pro-governing classes political party.

See? An ideologue will stretch his perception of reality to absurd lengths in order to avoid re thinking his ideals. Rachel Maddows has taken to calling the red and blue perceptions of reality Earth 1 and Earth 2 after the comic book dual fictional realities of yore. After covering something fairly absurd presented by Trump, she will introduce the next segment... "Meanwhile, here on Earth 1..." Attempting to repeat the other version of reality will get you no where. It is hardly worth trying.

I am tempted to just wait for reality to invalidate Earth 2, but a descendent of Bradford Forrest is still living in the world where slavery was correct and the south should have won the Civil War. There are tales of people during World War II sipping tea and cursing out That Man in the White House. Some will cling to their fake and hoax realities when for most people reality has moved on.

I guess I will occasionally reinsert Earth ! into the conversation occasionally. The conservatives occasionally do switch realities when their belief in the old gets increasingly hard to maintain. The collapse of the old values during a 4T is hard to miss. Even a conservative might notice. One can hope.

[Bob Butler 54]

Another one from CNN, just in case you thought things were getting too boring. Oh, great: NASA says an asteroid is headed our way right before Election Day

Basically there is a chance a tiny little rock will hit Earth 1.  Don't worry.  The warning is obviously from the Deep State, so Earth 2 will not be hit.

[CH86]

That's part of you and other boomers problem, LOL, listening to Rachel Maddow. Maddow is globalist propaganda not real news but fake news tailor made to feed liberal boomers narcissism, MSNBC is worse than CNN now on that regard. Listen no one is seriously expecting you to become a fan of conservative leaning stations such as Fox, but at the very least listen to actual left-leaning news like Kyle, Krystal or Saagar instead. Watching too much globalist propaganda like Maddow rots the brain.

[Bob Butler 54]

(08-22-2020, 09:30 PM)CH86 Wrote: That's part of you and other boomers problem, LOL, listening to Rachel Maddow. Maddow is globalist propaganda not real news but fake news tailor made to feed liberal boomers narcissism, MSNBC is worse than CNN now on that regard. Listen no one is seriously expecting you to become a fan of conservative leaning stations such as Fox, but at the very least listen to actual left-leaning news like Kyle, Krystal or Saagar instead. Watching too much globalist propaganda like Maddow rots the brain.

It may be worth it a little bit to watch the Earth 2 news once in a while. It is prudent to know the other side's fantasies. But Rachel is right that the two realities have little to do with one another. To avoid reality, just chant hoax or face news occasionally. If you occasionally checked against reality you'd be OK. But you don't, so you are hopeless.

[pbrower2a]

(08-22-2020, 08:49 PM)CH86 Wrote: Sorry PBrower but democrats have fully embraced the corporate elites while the the GOP is becoming less and less Pro-corporate by the day. It is the GOP that is emerging as the populist party, not the DNC. The DNC becoming a pro-governing classes political party.

...and what says that conservatives of the old sort aren't getting scared of the erratic behavior of Donald Trump? At least to them the Democrats, who have fully endorsed the concepts of rule of law, separation of powers, and checks and balances may offer something inconvenient for profit maximization -- but not something likely to spiral into despotism and war?

Big Business got it right on COVID-19 when Trump didn't!

[Eric the Green]

(08-22-2020, 08:49 PM)CH86 Wrote: Sorry PBrower but democrats have fully embraced the corporate elites while the the GOP is becoming less and less Pro-corporate by the day. It is the GOP that is emerging as the populist party, not the DNC. The DNC becoming a pro-governing classes political party.

Quite the opposite is the case. Republicans keep the minimum wage down while giving huge tax breaks to corporations and the wealthy. The result is that bosses make hundreds or thousands more $$ than what their employees make. This trend began under Reagan, and has continued, with some respite under Clinton and Obama. Republicans take away regulations that protect the people on the phony excuse of boosting business profits that will trickle down to everyone. They remove protections for unions and instead put up barriers to them, thereby bringing down wages and benefits to workers. They take away health care protections for the people so that big pharma and big medicine can make millions. They provide huge subsidies to outdated industries. They attack entitlements that we the people have more than paid for. Trump has been pursuing this false trickle-down policy to the max. It always fails, and it is entirely a Republican policy held for 124 years. I see no let up in this policy, contrary to what you say. He promised better trade deals, but delivered peanuts and his trade wars cost farmers millions. Trump is a non-populist. He is a fake. He is part of the elite, and he is an elitist, as are all Republican politicians.

Democrats have opposite policies on all these matters, and stand with the people. They still take corporate money, but they also support campaign, wall street and lobbying financial reforms while Republicans oppose them tooth and nail.

[CH86]

Good god, talking to Boomers (especially boomer liberals) is like talking to a brick wall. You enjoy your globalist degenerate overlords, the rest of us will eventually rebel against such tyranny. Americans HATE GLOBALIST/UN TYRANNY.

[Isoko]

CH86 is correct in what he is saying. The Democrats are repeating the same mistakes that the Clinton campaign did in 2016. They are focusing entirely on diversity and globalism, forgetting about America's white working class once again. I'm seeing the Twitter feeds and reading the news and the energy I am getting is that people, the average Joe over in America, is very likely to vote for Trump once again.

The only way the Democrats can stop this trend in future elections is to stop waving the flag continually for globalism and actually focus on basically "America First". They need to look at what attracts people to Trump's programme and build on that.

Otherwise, you could end up with a secession crisis sometime this century. Already I'm seeing Democrat run areas threatening to actually secede if Trump wins again. So maybe in the long term it is better for the country if it does just split in two?

[Isoko]

(08-23-2020, 04:14 AM)CH86 Wrote: Good god, talking to Boomers (especially boomer liberals) is like talking to a brick wall. You enjoy your globalist degenerate overlords, the rest of us will eventually rebel against such tyranny. Americans HATE GLOBALIST/UN TYRANNY.

It is because they are old men. Before them the elderly in the West clung to the days of the might of the British Empire and what have you, constantly defending such a position and how great it was when such countries had colonial empires. 

It's the same with today's baby boomers. They are old and just cannot move on from the past, not realising that today is a very different world from the 60s and 70s. 

Like the old saying goes, "you cannot teach an old dog new tricks."

[Bob Butler 54]

(08-23-2020, 07:24 AM)Isoko Wrote:

(08-23-2020, 04:14 AM)CH86 Wrote: Good god, talking to Boomers (especially boomer liberals) is like talking to a brick wall. You enjoy your globalist degenerate overlords, the rest of us will eventually rebel against such tyranny. Americans HATE GLOBALIST/UN TYRANNY.

It is because they are old men. Before them the elderly in the West clung to the days of the might of the British Empire and what have you, constantly defending such a position and how great it was when such countries had colonial empires. 

It's the same with today's baby boomers. They are old and just cannot move on from the past, not realising that today is a very different world from the 60s and 70s. 

Like the old saying goes, "you cannot teach an old dog new tricks."

I’ve been doing a little thinking on why various generations are locked into perceptions.  In their youth, people tend to find a world view and values, and carry it around with them for the rest of their lives assuming the lack or a traumatic failure or a 4T.  Same thing, really.  For people like Eric and myself, this meant living through the time before the southern strategy, when the Democrats were dominant and favored policies that favored the working man.  People got worked up about racism and pushed for the worst of it to change.

It is not too surprising that we want a return to the time when America was great.  Even a Republican can feel that urge.

The younger folk grew up in a time dominated by elitist and racist thought.  During much of that time the Democrats fell into the elitist trap.  Benefits and unions were weakened.  Jobs went overseas.  Campaign donations from the elites became more important than serving the people.  This was worse for the Republicans but the Democrats were not far behind.  I will say bad things about many establishment Democrats at the time as long as you say it in spades of the Republicans.

The trouble is that favoring racists and elites over the working man and minorities is still the Republican policy and the Trump policy, yet that policy is their grounds for going after Democrats.

And people formed their world view and values at that time.  They saw Democrats not at their best and locked into it.  They formed a negative opinion of them, and I don’t blame them.  But still, the idea of hurting the working man, benefiting the elites, hurting minorities, that was the Republicans.  That was the southern strategy.

The Democrats have embraced Warren and Sanders more aggressive approach.  In many ways it is a return to the old days Eric and I remember.  The Democrats favored the working man, and the Republicans supported the elites and corporations.  The Republicans claimed that what was best for General Motors was best for America, at least until General Motors needed them.  But I have several of the conservatives not seeing it.  They are obsessed with violence without checking the spirals of violence and rhetoric.  They are saying what Democrats were like without listening to what the Democrats are saying today.  They would rather go with their decades old stereotypes.  They are dealing with the unravelling southern strategy mindset without looking at the Republican loyalty to that mindset.

And you just can’t teach people who have grown out of the worldview and values formation time new tricks.  Well, short of a catastrophic failure of their values.  Or a 4T.  Same thing, really.

[pbrower2a]

(08-23-2020, 04:14 AM)CH86 Wrote: Good god, talking to Boomers (especially boomer liberals) is like talking to a brick wall. You enjoy your globalist degenerate overlords, the rest of us will eventually rebel against such tyranny. Americans HATE GLOBALIST/UN TYRANNY.

Some of us Boomers see in Donald Trump too much of what we dread in ourselves and too little of what we dream of in ourselves.

[pbrower2a]

(08-23-2020, 02:50 AM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(08-22-2020, 08:49 PM)CH86 Wrote: Sorry PBrower but democrats have fully embraced the corporate elites while the the GOP is becoming less and less Pro-corporate by the day. It is the GOP that is emerging as the populist party, not the DNC. The DNC becoming a pro-governing classes political party.

Quite the opposite is the case. Republicans keep the minimum wage down while giving huge tax breaks to corporations and the wealthy. The result is that bosses make hundreds or thousands more $$ than what their employees make. This trend began under Reagan, and has continued, with some respite under Clinton and Obama. Republicans take away regulations that protect the people on the phony excuse of boosting business profits that will trickle down to everyone. They remove protections for unions and instead put up barriers to them, thereby bringing down wages and benefits to workers. They take away health care protections for the people so that big pharma and big medicine can make millions. They provide huge subsidies to outdated industries. They attack entitlements that we the people have more than paid for. Trump has been pursuing this false trickle-down policy to the max. It always fails, and it is entirely a Republican policy held for 124 years. I see no let up in this policy, contrary to what you say.  He promised better trade deals, but delivered peanuts and his trade wars cost farmers millions. Trump is a non-populist. He is a fake. He is part of the elite, and he is an elitist, as are all Republican politicians.

One Skowronek cycle beginning with a Party ascendant under Reagan and ending with the same Party in severe decay with Donald Trump. The Skowronek cycle begins with one Party taking over and repudiating the assumptions of the other, negating the assumptions of the Party whose time is through in political domination as shown in a one-term President. Reagan broke stagflation by successfully lowering expectations of young adults so that people with marginally-useful college degrees would be sales clerks in department stores (but do well for their employers if not for themselves) or simply keep doing the low-paid work that they were doing to put themselves through college while the system shored up profits. People took social justice for granted and fell for the glitz.  Reagan also baited the Left on culture... and since then the Left has become more diverse and conformist in a seeming paradox. Trump is Reaganomics served stale and incompetently, with an erratic, person-centered foreign policy and a deep descent into offensive vulgarity.  

It is telling that the shopping mall that was the expression of Reagan glitz is now dying... which is a metaphor as well as a financial statement of failure. People have learned that vulgarity is not so much a part of prole life as it is obnoxiousness.  

Quote:Democrats have opposite policies on all these matters, and stand with the people. They still take corporate money, but they also support campaign, wall street and lobbying financial reforms while Republicans oppose them tooth and nail.

The 'corporate money' may be getting the heebie-jeebies about Trump.

[Eric the Green]

(08-23-2020, 09:47 AM)pbrower2a Wrote:

(08-23-2020, 04:14 AM)CH86 Wrote: Good god, talking to Boomers (especially boomer liberals) is like talking to a brick wall. You enjoy your globalist degenerate overlords, the rest of us will eventually rebel against such tyranny. Americans HATE GLOBALIST/UN TYRANNY.

Some of us Boomers see in Donald Trump too much of what we dread in ourselves and too little of what we dream of in ourselves.

Indeed so. I hope we will continue to be brick walls against such regressive tyranny as you espouse, Mr. CH86.

[Eric the Green]

(08-23-2020, 07:22 AM)Isoko Wrote: CH86 is correct in what he is saying. The Democrats are repeating the same mistakes that the Clinton campaign did in 2016. They are focusing entirely on diversity and globalism, forgetting about America's white working class once again. I'm seeing the Twitter feeds and reading the news and the energy I am getting is that people, the average Joe over in America, is very likely to vote for Trump once again.

The only way the Democrats can stop this trend in future elections is to stop waving the flag continually for globalism and actually focus on basically "America First". They need to look at what attracts people to Trump's programme and build on that.

Otherwise, you could end up with a secession crisis sometime this century. Already I'm seeing Democrat run areas threatening to actually secede if Trump wins again. So maybe in the long term it is better for the country if it does just split in two?

If the red Republican tribe continues to be so deceived and regressive as it is today, then perhaps so.

Some people say Democrats are ignoring the white working class. I don't see that at all. We support the genuine ideas and forces that support workers, such as unions, health care, fair wages and regulations against oligarchic abuse. These goals were abundantly voiced at the Democratic Convention. Where white workers get distracted and indulge in scapegoating of their fellow workers and citizens who happen to be of other ethnic groups, and are deceived by mere symbols and prejudice, then no, we Democrats don't support them when they allow themselves to be so deceived. They may not relate well to the increasing diversity of our society, and I understand that and it's too bad, but the Democrats can't ignore the large part of their coalition that seeks human rights for all groups. It is up to white workers to recognize where their true interests lie: with us, and not with the Republicans.

America First is not the way forward. Those who do not recognize that we absolutely live in a global society, and have done so for 130 years now, and that allies are needed among nations to ensure global justice, are truly deceived and need to be disabused of their mistake. Fair trade is perhaps the one issue where Trump got it right, but in his incompetence he has failed to deliver on that basically-Democratic Party goal. Genuine globalism recognizes that different peoples are at different levels of prosperity and freedom from capitalist abuse. Tariffs and borders are locks in the canals between peoples by which these levels can be adjusted.

[Eric the Green]

(08-23-2020, 07:24 AM)Isoko Wrote:

(08-23-2020, 04:14 AM)CH86 Wrote: Good god, talking to Boomers (especially boomer liberals) is like talking to a brick wall. You enjoy your globalist degenerate overlords, the rest of us will eventually rebel against such tyranny. Americans HATE GLOBALIST/UN TYRANNY.

It is because they are old men. Before them the elderly in the West clung to the days of the might of the British Empire and what have you, constantly defending such a position and how great it was when such countries had colonial empires. 

It's the same with today's baby boomers. They are old and just cannot move on from the past, not realising that today is a very different world from the 60s and 70s. 

Like the old saying goes, "you cannot teach an old dog new tricks."

I agree with Bob's statement, and I would add that you and CH86 do not know the younger generations in the USA. Millennials and Gen Zers are even more progressive and more committed to progressive values and goals than Boomers are. Many Boomers are indeed stuck in the past, but it is not the past of their idealistic youth, but the past of their childhood and of the Reagan/Bush era which coopted, deceived and captured them as their minds atrophied with age. But some Boomers remain able to keep their minds and spirits alive, and they continue to hold to genuine ideals and see actual realities. It is indeed red vs. blue that is the real contest, not boomer vs. millennial. We still hope that we can reverse the temporary regressive misdirection of our society that began in 1980.

[Eric the Green]

A small Biden Bump is happening; I hope it continues and that the repug unconvention will turn people off, as it should.

National Biden +9.2
Arizona Biden +4.6
Colorado Biden +14.4
Florida Biden +6.2
Georgia Trump +0.5
Iowa Trump +0.8
Kansas Trump +8.3
Michigan Biden +7.9
Minnesota Biden +5.7
Missouri Trump +4.9
Montana Trump +8.4
Nevada Biden +7.8
New Hampshire Biden +9.2
North Carolina Biden +1.3
Ohio Biden +0.1
Pennsylvania Biden +6.2
South Carolina Trump +6.0
Texas Trump +1.2
Utah Trump +10.5
Wisconsin Biden +7.0

California Biden +32.5
https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/pol.../national/