Election 2020

[pbrower2a]

(12-15-2020, 10:54 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(12-15-2020, 07:59 PM)0 Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(12-15-2020, 05:30 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Well, how many blue cities in ruins is it going to take these days? The people of Minneapolis watched as their city descend into chaos and violence and destruction but that didn't change the way they voted or the person who represents their district in Washington DC. So, what's it going to take to change what's wrong with Democratic party and the choices/decisions that the Democratic party makes these days? So, how much death, destruction and mayhem willing to inflict, watch and support to remain in power these days. BTW, how did the Japanese soldiers respond to the American soldiers who cheered the first time they passed one their cities laid to ruin buy American bombers? Did they gather them up and execute them on the spot? Did they do it again the second time and did they have to do it again a third time or did the American soldiers left (Japanese prisoners of war) learn to keep their emotions to themselves while passing the next one? War is hell Bob and there is no right and wrong during times of war Bob and no one is off limits either. If you can't handle the fear of a pesky bug killing you then what are you going to do when we are essentially at war and we all have the right to kill you over your unwilling to recognize American sovereignty and the future of America itself. Wake up and come to grips with who and what you're messing with and trying to dismantle  these days.

Interesting question.  How many people have to die, or how many cities destroyed, for a culture to be considered failed, for the population to consider changing its worldview and values?

We have Pbower’s recent posts to draw on.  COVID has killed about 300,000 people.  He has got about half way through the 100 most populous US cities.  It seems reasonable to take 300,000 people as a city on a rough scale.

On a rough scale, Japan lost about 3,000,000 people in World War II.  That would be about 10 cities worth before they changed their culture.

If the red culture is as fixated and determines as the Japanese were, they will not change their values until about 3,000,000 die.  They will kill an awful lot of people before changing their way of thinking.  As we are likely to have effective vaccines in people’s arms before that level is reached, the red folk are likely to not change their behavior to take precautions?

Let’s take a look at systematic racism and racial murders.  How many cities worth?  Has the looting and violence in Minneapolis reached a level that even begins to compare with the nukes and fire bombings in Japan?  One or two people die in a recent incident?  One or two building are destroyed and soon built back?  As far as I know, Minneapolis is still there, and Portland, and Washington DC.  Sure a Portland police union building was torched, and the church in Lafayette Square was boarded up, but does that begin to compare?  The protests were big, sure, but was the violence anywhere near the change the culture threshold of 3,000,000?  Do the number of buildings destroyed even begin to compare to Hiroshima or the Tokyo fire bombing?

What about the red violence?  One or two people die per incident?  Is that going to cause the opposition to change their culture?  Is it far more likely to get the culture Pearl Harbor mad than Hiroshima level ‘I give up.’  It is far easier to get the opposing culture determined and upset rather than make them yield.

Now these numbers are absurdly rough.  The lynchings in the south at the hight of the Jim Crow period were not nearly as high.  If you have a terrorist intimidation as part of a status quo, you might see something different.  But still, people will cling to their culture in spite of a lot of death and destruction.  They will go through a period of sticking to their values before they will see that the death and destruction are not worth it.

As a side note, the US and Japanese cultures were very different in the early 1940s.  The US got very upset at the rape of Nanking, and the Japanese military convincing a civilian village on a Pacific island that it was better to jump of a cliff and into the sea rather than surrender to American soldiers.  Yet the Americans would bomb Japan.  On the other hand, the Japanese were obedient.  For example, they would jump off a cliff before they would surrender to American soldiers.  Before the surrender, they had plans to kill all the POWs on the home islands.  Once the emperor surrendered, the plans were dropped.  They were not hostile to the Americans.  You might not do the same, but the story as I heard it did not include after the surrender hostilities by the Japanese.

How large was Japanese culture compared to Red culture today at the time? Red culture is about 74 million strong today. Realistically, 300,000 deaths is less than a 1% of the total population. Blue culture is about 82 million strong today. 300,000 is less than a percent of the total population for size. It's pretty clear that Covid had a greater impact on Blue Culture than Red Culture and it still does today. In short, we have no reason to change our culture. Whatever bad that is said about us is largely untrue and repeated by people who don't have a clue about us. Like I said, you and I could be neighbors or business acquaintances or passer by's but I doubt that we'd ever be friends or give two shit less about each other.

 

Japan has 125 million people. That is nearly one third of the population of the USA. The Japan to which you refer was a country under a brutal dictatorship infamous for its contempt for the value of human life as shown by its brutal treatment of occupied countries and its callous treatment of its own soldiers. That was over 75 years ago. What we consider the archaic elements of Japanese culture are still there, and those define Japan from all other countries. Those attributes (arguably the greatest non-Western tradition in painting, Zen Buddhism,  netsuke, kabuki theater, music on Japanese traditional instruments, origami, flower arranging, rock gardens, Japanese cuisine, and distinctive clothing) are benign and even attractive. Oddly, American troops sent to Japan  on occupation duty were far more effective in spreading the virtues of Japanese culture than all the brutal soldiers and administrators. 

Something happened in Japan to put the country into a new era that continues to this day. Two atom bomb blasts? Japan was already reeling from economic collapse because the Japanese shipping that brought foodstuffs from conquered countries (where the Japanese put the people on the borderline of famine) was no longer getting through. Neither were raw materials or fuel for the war machine. The gangster rule came to an end, and the brutal administrators (mostly military officers, such as those who mistreated captured POWs and ravaged countries under occupation) were purged and often executed. The Japanese people were stripped of some myths of racial superiority over the rest of Humanity and obliged to go democratic and give women equal rights with men. They could keep the benign aspects of culture, but military aggression and totalitarian rule would be gone. Japan is still a conformist society even if it is a well-entrenched democracy. Just don't be a criminal. The Japanese legal system treats criminal offenders harshly, with the same sort of mind control that the Chinese Communists use upon political offenders. Obviously I have more sympathy for people who want democracy in China than I have for muggers, rapists, and car thieves. The good thing that I can say about the Japanese system is that one comes out of it a better person than one goes in.         

Kill about thirty people, as is documented for serial killers Ted Bundy and John Wayne Gacy, and your name is mud... and it will be for a very long time. I am sure that you remember how upset Americans were about the 9/11 attacks. Why should we not have been? Murder is always an injustice. Some time ago I got into arguments with Chileans praising the former dictator Augusto Pinochet for saving their country from Communism. I challenged them on the body count... and whether the repression in Chile was any nicer than what was going on in Commie regimes behind the Iron Curtain. 

Kill about the population of St. Louis, Pittsburgh, or Cincinnati, and the Stalinist quote "one death is a tragedy and a million deaths is a statistic" has some relevance. Numbers can literally numb us. That is why I compare the death count to cities, which I hope shocks people. The number of deaths has surpassed the total population of the largest city in fifteen states.


Disease
COVID-19
Virus strain
SARS-CoV-2
Location
United States
First outbreak
Wuhan, Hubei, China[1]
Index case
Chicago, Illinois (earliest known arrival)[2]
Everett, Washington (first case report)[3]
Arrival date
January 13, 2020[4](11 months and 3 days ago)
Confirmed cases

• 16,317,892 (CDC)[5]
  
• 16,636,487 (JHU)[6]
  
• 16,339,404 (CTP)[7]
  

Recovered

• 7,469,182[8]
  

Deaths

• 300,032 (CDC)[5]
  
• 302,294 (JHU)[6]
  

Fatality rate

• 1.84% (CDC)
  
• 1.82% (JHU)
  

Disease
COVID-19
Virus strain
SARS-CoV-2
Location
Japan
First outbreak
Wuhan, Hubei, China
Index case
Kanagawa Prefecture
Arrival date
16 January 2020
(11 months)
Confirmed cases
181,870[1][2]
Recovered
153,519[1][2]
Deaths
2,643[1][2]
Fatality rate
1.45%

Quote:The Japanese citizens were indoctrinated by years of Japanese government propaganda that portrayed American soldiers as brutal savages which is why so many of the jumped off cliffs vs surrendering and being taken alive by American soldiers.

That happens when a country is under the command of a murderous cult-like organization. Note well that such anti-American propaganda was still relatively new in 1945 because it had not started until the attack on Pearl Harbor. Bushido is not the American way. That of course is over. I can think of some things that we Americans would be wise to divest ourselves of, but I am sure that you have seen that already. 

By the way -- I am not sure how well you understand probability and statistics, but I would say that the Japanese have better dealt with COVID-19 than we Americans have. In 2020 it would have been better to be in Japan than in America -- even if one was doing time in Japan for bar-room brawling. 

Donald Trump has shown reckless disregard for the value of human life in his bungled response to COVID-19. We Americans are about to divest ourselves of him as President.

[pbrower2a]

(12-15-2020, 01:51 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(12-14-2020, 12:59 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: The Electoral College is underway, and Trump has no chance of winning any of the 232 electoral votes that Hillary Clinton got in 2016. With Pennsylvania and Georgia electors going for Biden and Harris, the Democratic nominees effectively got to an assurance of 268 electoral votes. Arizona assures 279 and the election. Wisconsin gives Biden and Harris the ten electoral votes that Trump thinks his.  

Democratic electors in Michigan are getting a police escort due to threats of violence. People need to do prison time for such treachery.

...Michigan casts 16 electoral votes for Joe Biden and Kamala Harris.

Yep. The Democrats should be in power within a month. Do we need to carry on tradition and go through all the hoopla or can we just skip it all together this year? I say, (expletive deleted) and vote to place the Democratic government and all its misguided/clueless people on ignore. As far as Democratic electorates, who cares about them they're all senseless liberal fools anyway. Yep. Welcome to the 4T.

If you wish to ignore me, then such is your prerogative.

[Bob Butler 54]

(12-15-2020, 10:54 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: How large was Japanese culture compared to Red culture today at the time? Red culture is about 74 million strong today. Realistically, 300,000 deaths is less than a 1% of the total population. Blue culture is about 82 million strong today. 300,000 is less than a percent of the total population for size. It's pretty clear that Covid had a greater impact on Blue Culture than Red Culture and it still does today. In short, we have no reason to change our culture. Whatever bad that is said about us is largely untrue and repeated by people who don't have a clue about us. Like I said, you and I could be neighbors or business acquaintances or passer by's but I doubt that we'd ever be friends or give two shit less about each other.

The population of Japan in 1940 was about 73.111 million.  This is similar enough to the 74 million you claim for the red culture.  Saying they will require a similar amount of deaths before they will consider shifting thought patterns seems plausible.  You certainly found reason to shrug off 300,000.  A much larger count seems required before a change in values comes.  The blue are taking it much more seriously.  Just comparing Biden's effort against Trump's and you can see the difference.

While initially the deaths were in blue port areas, at this point the bug has spread considerably.  The red are making a point of not taking precautions.  Even in heavily blue areas of the country like Massachusetts we are getting a surge, in part due to this red lack of precautions.  You hear stories about people refusing to wear masks, or ignoring the one way signs in grocery stores that are supposed to make social distancing more effective.  This lack of precautions is not just killing the red.  The blue are victims of this lack of precautions by the red as well.  Shrugging it off as a blue problem is a delusion.  Still, I have no idea to what degree this red lack of precautions is making the red more the victims.

I think Trump's claiming vaccine priority for White House personnel after they made it a point of politicizing the precautions is the height of hypocrisy, people like security, maids, and cleaners excepted.

A part of it is Trump's willingness to lie, a common belief that the virus is a hoax.  You would think that 300,000 dead bodies don't lie.  But still, the red will make up reasons to leave their culture unchanged.  They maintain the unravelling selfishness over the crisis sacrifice for the common good.  Then they die.

I quite believe a good number of red don't embrace the extreme behaviors that set the red stereotype.  The deliberate dangerous avoiding of behaviors that restrict COVID, the attempt to impose their own religious culture on others who do not share their religion, the racist bad cop behavior, the structural racism, the Proud Boys invasion of urban areas to instigate violence, the Wolverine Watchmen's willingness to go lawless, the red readiness to accept lies that perpetuate their culture, the deliberate hurting of the poor working man in order to hurt minorities, all remain problematic.  

Not all red are worst case crazy.

But enough are to trigger a blue response against it.

How many of the above traits do you celebrate and are personally dedicated to?  Yet, if you are not willing to stand up and fight against them, can you blame blues for embracing the stereotype?

(12-15-2020, 10:54 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: The Japanese citizens were indoctrinated by years of Japanese government propaganda that portrayed American soldiers as brutal savages which is why so many of the jumped off cliffs vs surrendering and being taken alive by American soldiers.

But suicide and a lack of respect for lives were a broader part of Japanese culture of the time than for most cultures.  There is one tale of American soldiers wandering from foxhole to foxhole, making noise as they approach, not bothering much to demand surrender but waiting for the shot indicating suicide.  The culture was that strong.  Even today, you occasionally read about the recent spike in Japanese suicides that likely resulted from their stringent isolation efforts.  This result in a far greater suicide count locally than COVID's effects.

[pbrower2a]

I do not believe in the superiority of any culture, national or regional, over another. People may be uncomfortable with the one (which in America is often a composite) in which they are born and choose something else with which to affiliate.

Japan had an honor culture before 1945, and it has traces of that left. Violence against others except in war or official actions seems to have been little tolerated, but violence against self has been. Suicide rates are high in Japan, and that may reflect differences in a philosophical culture. Japan is not a Christian culture, so suicide might seem an honorable thing to do in contrast to disgracing oneself. Second chances seem to not be part of the old culture, in contrast to the norm in America for much longer. The American economic order encourages people to take economic risks to create a more vibrant economy. So you failed as a restaurant owner? Going back to the family farm or to the factory for work is an option.

All political systems somehow fit the culture... note that I did not claim any superiority of any American culture. I might not find the culture of the Ozarks or Appalachia very appealing, and I might be more accepting of a culture far more exotic rather than with something that I know well for its realities. Maybe I know it too well. The Bolsheviks may have dismantled the economic order of imperial Russia, but they figured how to use its existing institutions -- especially its police and its armed forces -- for Bolshevik ends. The gangsters who ruled Japan during World War II exploited the old culture of bushido and what most Americans consider the innocuous way of Zen (It did fit the ethos of the kamikaze). They perverted Japan into a monstrosity just as Mussolini exploited the allure of the great Roman past in Italy and Hitler exploited the backstory of the Nordic gods behind Wagner's Ring des Nibelungen.

We Americans can be complacent about such things, but think carefully about the Second (1915) Klan. It had most of the characteristics of fascism before Mussolini created the word fascismo and gave it his meaning. The 1915 Klan had many elements of Nazism: the racism (including antisemitism), znti-rational sentiment, gaudy symbolism, terroristic violence, the corruption of public officials, an anti-proletarian attitude, and a sense of lost national (or at least regional) pride. If anyone wonders about all those Confederate monuments that reactionaries defend -- those are mostly from about 1915-1920, long after the end of the American Civil War. The world can consider itself fortunate that the Second Klan disintegrated in the late 1920's before it could have a chance to exploit the economic and social distress related to the Great Depression. It also helps that Herbert Hoover didn't cast blame on Jews, Catholics, and blacks when such might have been politically expedient.

If you think The Man in the High Castle a horrible fantasy -- a Klan-dominated America would have been just as horrible as the consequences of an Axis victory. I have my own idea of a novel involving an Axis victory that would have its own twist: the Germans and the Japanese are the good guys, and they defeat a Klan-dominated America. Rommel Plan, anyone? I'm not quite sure how "New Deal" translates into German (German-language Wikipedia calls it "New Deal")... maybe we Americans translate our equivalent of Autobahnen as "Motorways" as do the British.

Don't think that the Klan would be any nicer than Nazis because it is American. The purge that eliminates Marshall, MacArthur, Clark, Eisenhower, Patton, Halsey, and Nimitz is at least as nasty as what goes on in Stalin's Soviet Union. Remember: the strength of a system in preventing the worst does not come from the national culture. The Germans had Goethe and Beethoven; the Russians had Dostoevsky and Tchaikovsky. Do we have an artist as great as Hokusai or Uemaro?

But so much for an ominous novel in my mind.

[Classic-Xer]

(12-16-2020, 06:21 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(12-15-2020, 10:54 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: How large was Japanese culture compared to Red culture today at the time? Red culture is about 74 million strong today. Realistically, 300,000 deaths is less than a 1% of the total population. Blue culture is about 82 million strong today. 300,000 is less than a percent of the total population for size. It's pretty clear that Covid had a greater impact on Blue Culture than Red Culture and it still does today. In short, we have no reason to change our culture. Whatever bad that is said about us is largely untrue and repeated by people who don't have a clue about us. Like I said, you and I could be neighbors or business acquaintances or passer by's but I doubt that we'd ever be friends or give two shit less about each other.

The population of Japan in 1940 was about 73.111 million.  This is similar enough to the 74 million you claim for the red culture.  Saying they will require a similar amount of deaths before they will consider shifting thought patterns seems plausible.  You certainly found reason to shrug off 300,000.  A much larger count seems required before a change in values comes.  The blue are taking it much more seriously.  Just comparing Biden's effort against Trump's and you can see the difference.

While initially the deaths were in blue port areas, at this point the bug has spread considerably.  The red are making a point of not taking precautions.  Even in heavily blue areas of the country like Massachusetts we are getting a surge, in part due to this red lack of precautions.  You hear stories about people refusing to wear masks, or ignoring the one way signs in grocery stores that are supposed to make social distancing more effective.  This lack of precautions is not just killing the red.  The blue are victims of this lack of precautions by the red as well.  Shrugging it off as a blue problem is a delusion.  Still, I have no idea to what degree this red lack of precautions is making the red more the victims.

I think Trump's claiming vaccine priority for White House personnel after they made it a point of politicizing the precautions is the height of hypocrisy, people like security, maids, and cleaners excepted.

A part of it is Trump's willingness to lie, a common belief that the virus is a hoax.  You would think that 300,000 dead bodies don't lie.  But still, the red will make up reasons to leave their culture unchanged.  They maintain the unravelling selfishness over the crisis sacrifice for the common good.  Then they die.

I quite believe a good number of red don't embrace the extreme behaviors that set the red stereotype.  The deliberate dangerous avoiding of behaviors that restrict COVID, the attempt to impose their own religious culture on others who do not share their religion, the racist bad cop behavior, the structural racism, the Proud Boys invasion of urban areas to instigate violence, the Wolverine Watchmen's willingness to go lawless, the red readiness to accept lies that perpetuate their culture, the deliberate hurting of the poor working man in order to hurt minorities, all remain problematic.  

Not all red are worst case crazy.

But enough are to trigger a blue response against it.

How many of the above traits do you celebrate and are personally dedicated to?  Yet, if you are not willing to stand up and fight against them, can you blame blues for embracing the stereotype?

(12-15-2020, 10:54 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: The Japanese citizens were indoctrinated by years of Japanese government propaganda that portrayed American soldiers as brutal savages which is why so many of the jumped off cliffs vs surrendering and being taken alive by American soldiers.

But suicide and a lack of respect for lives were a broader part of Japanese culture of the time than for most cultures.  There is one tale of American soldiers wandering from foxhole to foxhole, making noise as they approach, not bothering much to demand surrender but waiting for the shot indicating suicide.  The culture was that strong.  Even today, you occasionally read about the recent spike in Japanese suicides that likely resulted from their stringent isolation efforts.  This result in a far greater suicide count locally than COVID's effects.

The Reds and Blues are more or less separate cultures that don't do much socializing and intermixing. So, you blaming them for the COVID surge that Blue Culture is experiencing seems silly to me but normal as far as what Blues do and how they view things and respond to things happening that are related to them. As I've mentioned before, Red Culture isn't nearly as afraid of death or threatened by the possibility of getting sick and dying as Blue Culture today. Yet, Blue Culture will go along with violence, support violence by not opposing violence and go against those trying to protect them from violence which is strange but normal since there wasn't much actual killing of Blues associated with all the violence. I'd say more Trump supporters and cops were killed than Blue people were killed last summer.

I thought it was strange that Biden was railing on Trump about his mishandling of COVID as several vaccines were in the final stages of testing for approval. What this election proved is that there are a ton of suckers and clueless/selfish Blues who are mainly tied to a political brand and mainly influenced by years of its propaganda and reliance upon the state these days.

[Eric the Green]

"Interesting question. How many people have to die, or how many cities destroyed, for a culture to be considered failed, for the population to consider changing its worldview and values?"

I think there's a Bob Dylan song that covers this.

[Bob Butler 54]

(12-16-2020, 03:53 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: The Reds and Blues are more or less separate cultures that don't do much socializing and intermixing. So, you blaming them for the COVID surge that Blue Culture is experiencing seems silly to me but normal as far as what Blues do and how they view things and respond to things happening that are related to them. As I've mentioned before, Red Culture isn't nearly as afraid of death or threatened by the possibility of getting sick and dying as Blue Culture today. Yet, Blue Culture will go along with violence, support violence by not opposing violence and go against those trying to protect them from violence which is strange but normal since there wasn't much actual killing of Blues associated with all the violence. I'd say more Trump supporters and cops were killed than Blue people were killed last summer.

I've been more or less isolating for some time, so I'm not the best source of information.  I did get out last week.  I had a once a year medical appointment, and was mildly surprised they didn't work it remotely.  I was halted at the door by someone thoroughly masked who asked a bunch of questions that came town to had I any chance of having the bug.  I got to the waiting room to discover they had removed most of the chairs and scattered the rest.  It didn't take me long to figure out they were associated with the local COVID hospital, and somebody who was familiar with the bug had implemented fulll precautions.

My handyman is picking up most of my groceries.  From what he reports, the local stores are all requiring masks, have put up one way signs, are trying to encourage social distancing, but some people are not only ignoring the precautions but rubbing in people's face the fact that they are ignoring precautions.  They are being deliberately pointedly rude about it.  Some stores have their employees enforce the precautions and such stores are still civil.  Other stores are not.  It seems like we are developing red and blue grocery stores.

I have somebody come do my cleaning, twice a week.  I generally stay in my computer room mostly.  She spends most of the time elsewhere.  Both of us are masked.  Belt, meet suspenders.  Suspenders, belt.

I am not surprised by your logic that those who take no precautions don't catch the bug.  It goes with the quality of the rest of your so called logic.  I figure you are mostly wrong, but pointing it out would be pretty futile.

(12-16-2020, 03:53 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: I thought it was strange that Biden was railing on Trump about his mishandling of COVID as several vaccines were in the final stages of testing for approval. What this election proved is that there are a ton of suckers and clueless/selfish Blues who are mainly tied to a political brand and mainly influenced by years of its propaganda and reliance upon the state these days.

Turning down a reservation for vaccine doses?  Starting planning for distributing the vaccine only now when there were dugs available?  Yes, he acted like COVID was a hoax even though he knew better.  He deserved the railing, though it seems to have bounced of him as usual.  Lives don't matter to him.

I have been suggesting for some time that we are generally seeing clinging to worldviews and values more than stupidity.  There are extremists of all types, intelligent enough and able to defend their positions, posting regularly.  They can learn the Bible, or astrology, or learn Marxist theory, or have a hobby of classical music, or research exotic cultures, and still cling to their perspective absurdly tightly.  Stupidity and idiocy at one level has nothing to do with it.  At another, it gets to be a hard to defend that proposition at times.  The ability to adhere to a way of looking at the world in spite of all evidence from reality seems to simulate stupidity and idiocy pretty well at times.

[pbrower2a]

(12-16-2020, 03:53 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: The Reds and Blues are more or less separate cultures that don't do much socializing and intermixing. So, you blaming them for the COVID surge that Blue Culture is experiencing seems silly to me but normal as far as what Blues do and how they view things and respond to things happening that are related to them. As I've mentioned before, Red Culture isn't nearly as afraid of death or threatened by the possibility of getting sick and dying as Blue Culture today. Yet, Blue Culture will go along with violence, support violence by not opposing violence and go against those trying to protect them from violence which is strange but normal since there wasn't much actual killing of Blues associated with all the violence. I'd say more Trump supporters and cops were killed than Blue people were killed last summer.

Support for Donald Trump is for now very much a part of "Red" culture. When theCOVID-19 plague struck for its first wave, people in the Blue culture deferred quickly to the advice of those public officials who told us what to do to reduce the spread of "Rona" -- wearing masks, washing hands, social distancing. "Red" culture gave defiant resistance. One day when I was at Wal*Mart to do grocery shopping (this was of course long before the election) I saw many with indicators that they supported President Trump. Shirts an caps... but not masks.  Others had masks. I found out that the people not wearing masks were decidedly on the Right.

Blue America got hit hard because COVID-19 spread rapidly through mass transit. It ravaged the New York Subway and the Chicago Transit Authority. People obliged to protect and serve, like Detroit and Wayne County (Michigan) police were sickened in large numbers. Because they are more likely to live in crowded settings, urban blacks and Hispanics were hit disproportionately... early. Crowded workplaces, as in food-processing facilities with largely-poor non-white people, were also hit hard. Blue America adapted fast, but Red America got complacent. 

I had more trouble with libraries and bookstores being closed than with bars... and it is easy to see which is more likely to be a Red hangout and which is more likely to be a Red hangout.  Blue America reads little. Blue America got the message and did its drinking at home perhaps with a book to read between quaffs. Blue America does take-out if not cooking at home. Many of us have become better cooks.

By dispensing quack medical advice including the worst -- herd immunity -- Donald Trump is basically guilty of involuntary homicide. He had those mass, unmasked rallies, and in their wake are dead people. The late-winter/early spring wave ravaged urban Blue America. We don't fully know the demographics of the death toll... I would not be surprised if the 2020 Census gets revived to count the damage, from which the consequences will be known on many things, including ethnic and social connections to the mass death. Trump was delighted to exploit resentment against liberal pols, calling upon people to "liberate" states from restrictions intended to save lives. This yard sign is fairly common in Michigan:

 

and some people (Wolverine Watchmen, not to be confused with the moniker of University of Michigan sports teams -- U of M is one of the "public Ivies") seem to have taken their disdain for Governor Whitmer into the realm of treason. She got it right, and Michigan has gone from fourth in COVID-19 deaths to ninth as some Red-state pols who have put commerce above human life while restaurants  remain largely closed in Michigan. A hint: Sturgis, South Dakota had its motorcycle rally this year on schedule, and it became a super-spreader event. Sturgis, Michigan, which is practically on Interstate 90 (you must cross the Michigan state line to get there from the Indiana Toll Road) and has a knock-off event exploiting a the same name, did not have such an event this year. 2021, maybe.



It's the difference between "Damn the virus, full speed ahead" and reasonable caution. The death toll from COVID-19 is rising rapidly where state governments have been least effective in suppressing the disease. The right response to something that kills like a war in scope, if not technique, is to take all appropriate measures. It was easy to avoid travel that might have spread the disease because when almost everything interesting is shut down, there's not much reason to do any pleasure trips. We are going to pay a price for shutting down schools.

Over 310,000 people have died of COVID-19, and one state (Florida) seems to be hiding the death toll. Even without this exposure, the death toll is now between those of the 63rd largest city in America (St. Paul, Minnesota) and the 62nd (Stockton, California). Why do I keep mentioning cities? Because I want to refute the saying of Josef Stalin that "one death is a tragedy and a million deaths is a statistic". 

Quote:I thought it was strange that Biden was railing on Trump about his mishandling of COVID as several vaccines were in the final stages of testing for approval. What this election proved is that there are a ton of suckers and clueless/selfish Blues who are mainly tied to a political brand and mainly influenced by years of its propaganda and reliance upon the state these days.

I rail at our Coward-in-Chief for failing to do what it took to ensure that a large number of people have gone into the demographic equivalent of a black hole (death) because he defied competent and relevant medical advice that might have saved a huge chunk of 310 thousand people so that they might be around to get the vaccine. I made my choice to reduce my risks to the extent that my economic reality allows; one year of misery that allows me the chance of enjoying fifteen good years sounds like a rational-enough choice. Maybe I will take that trip to New York City someday, which would be much less likely had I caught COVID-19 and died on a respirator. 

Maybe the difference between Red America and Blue America is that Red America lives on its impulses and is unable to defer gratification, and the ability to defer gratification so characteristic of Blue America explains why Blue America has more and better education. Maybe that explains why Blue America has lower rates of crime and drug overdoses. Much of Red America lacks the talent for making statistical inferences and still believes that Donald Trump won in a landslide because everyone that many in Red America believe that nobody else voted for Joe Biden.

[Classic-Xer]

(12-16-2020, 02:48 AM)pbrower2a Wrote:

(12-15-2020, 10:54 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(12-15-2020, 07:59 PM)0 Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(12-15-2020, 05:30 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Well, how many blue cities in ruins is it going to take these days? The people of Minneapolis watched as their city descend into chaos and violence and destruction but that didn't change the way they voted or the person who represents their district in Washington DC. So, what's it going to take to change what's wrong with Democratic party and the choices/decisions that the Democratic party makes these days? So, how much death, destruction and mayhem willing to inflict, watch and support to remain in power these days. BTW, how did the Japanese soldiers respond to the American soldiers who cheered the first time they passed one their cities laid to ruin buy American bombers? Did they gather them up and execute them on the spot? Did they do it again the second time and did they have to do it again a third time or did the American soldiers left (Japanese prisoners of war) learn to keep their emotions to themselves while passing the next one? War is hell Bob and there is no right and wrong during times of war Bob and no one is off limits either. If you can't handle the fear of a pesky bug killing you then what are you going to do when we are essentially at war and we all have the right to kill you over your unwilling to recognize American sovereignty and the future of America itself. Wake up and come to grips with who and what you're messing with and trying to dismantle  these days.

Interesting question.  How many people have to die, or how many cities destroyed, for a culture to be considered failed, for the population to consider changing its worldview and values?

We have Pbower’s recent posts to draw on.  COVID has killed about 300,000 people.  He has got about half way through the 100 most populous US cities.  It seems reasonable to take 300,000 people as a city on a rough scale.

On a rough scale, Japan lost about 3,000,000 people in World War II.  That would be about 10 cities worth before they changed their culture.

If the red culture is as fixated and determines as the Japanese were, they will not change their values until about 3,000,000 die.  They will kill an awful lot of people before changing their way of thinking.  As we are likely to have effective vaccines in people’s arms before that level is reached, the red folk are likely to not change their behavior to take precautions?

Let’s take a look at systematic racism and racial murders.  How many cities worth?  Has the looting and violence in Minneapolis reached a level that even begins to compare with the nukes and fire bombings in Japan?  One or two people die in a recent incident?  One or two building are destroyed and soon built back?  As far as I know, Minneapolis is still there, and Portland, and Washington DC.  Sure a Portland police union building was torched, and the church in Lafayette Square was boarded up, but does that begin to compare?  The protests were big, sure, but was the violence anywhere near the change the culture threshold of 3,000,000?  Do the number of buildings destroyed even begin to compare to Hiroshima or the Tokyo fire bombing?

What about the red violence?  One or two people die per incident?  Is that going to cause the opposition to change their culture?  Is it far more likely to get the culture Pearl Harbor mad than Hiroshima level ‘I give up.’  It is far easier to get the opposing culture determined and upset rather than make them yield.

Now these numbers are absurdly rough.  The lynchings in the south at the hight of the Jim Crow period were not nearly as high.  If you have a terrorist intimidation as part of a status quo, you might see something different.  But still, people will cling to their culture in spite of a lot of death and destruction.  They will go through a period of sticking to their values before they will see that the death and destruction are not worth it.

As a side note, the US and Japanese cultures were very different in the early 1940s.  The US got very upset at the rape of Nanking, and the Japanese military convincing a civilian village on a Pacific island that it was better to jump of a cliff and into the sea rather than surrender to American soldiers.  Yet the Americans would bomb Japan.  On the other hand, the Japanese were obedient.  For example, they would jump off a cliff before they would surrender to American soldiers.  Before the surrender, they had plans to kill all the POWs on the home islands.  Once the emperor surrendered, the plans were dropped.  They were not hostile to the Americans.  You might not do the same, but the story as I heard it did not include after the surrender hostilities by the Japanese.

How large was Japanese culture compared to Red culture today at the time? Red culture is about 74 million strong today. Realistically, 300,000 deaths is less than a 1% of the total population. Blue culture is about 82 million strong today. 300,000 is less than a percent of the total population for size. It's pretty clear that Covid had a greater impact on Blue Culture than Red Culture and it still does today. In short, we have no reason to change our culture. Whatever bad that is said about us is largely untrue and repeated by people who don't have a clue about us. Like I said, you and I could be neighbors or business acquaintances or passer by's but I doubt that we'd ever be friends or give two shit less about each other.

 

Japan has 125 million people. That is nearly one third of the population of the USA. The Japan to which you refer was a country under a brutal dictatorship infamous for its contempt for the value of human life as shown by its brutal treatment of occupied countries and its callous treatment of its own soldiers. That was over 75 years ago. What we consider the archaic elements of Japanese culture are still there, and those define Japan from all other countries. Those attributes (arguably the greatest non-Western tradition in painting, Zen Buddhism,  netsuke, kabuki theater, music on Japanese traditional instruments, origami, flower arranging, rock gardens, Japanese cuisine, and distinctive clothing) are benign and even attractive. Oddly, American troops sent to Japan  on occupation duty were far more effective in spreading the virtues of Japanese culture than all the brutal soldiers and administrators. 

Something happened in Japan to put the country into a new era that continues to this day. Two atom bomb blasts? Japan was already reeling from economic collapse because the Japanese shipping that brought foodstuffs from conquered countries (where the Japanese put the people on the borderline of famine) was no longer getting through. Neither were raw materials or fuel for the war machine.   The gangster rule came to an end, and the brutal administrators (mostly military officers, such as those who mistreated captured POWs and ravaged countries under occupation) were purged and often executed. The Japanese people were stripped of some myths of racial superiority over the rest of Humanity and obliged to go democratic and give women equal rights with men. They could keep the benign aspects of culture, but military aggression and totalitarian rule would be gone. Japan is still a conformist society even if it is a well-entrenched democracy. Just don't be a criminal. The Japanese legal system treats criminal offenders harshly, with the same sort of mind control that the Chinese Communists use upon political offenders. Obviously I have more sympathy for people who want democracy in China than I have for muggers, rapists, and car thieves. The good thing that I can say about the Japanese system is that one comes out of it a better person than one goes in.         

Kill about thirty people, as is documented for serial killers Ted Bundy and John Wayne Gacy, and your name is mud... and it will be for a very long time. I am sure that you remember how upset Americans were about the 9/11 attacks. Why should we not have been? Murder is always an injustice. Some time ago I got into arguments with Chileans praising the former dictator Augusto Pinochet for saving their country from Communism. I challenged them on the body count... and whether the repression in Chile was any nicer than what was going on in Commie regimes behind the Iron Curtain. 

Kill about the population of St. Louis, Pittsburgh, or Cincinnati, and the Stalinist quote "one death is a tragedy and a million deaths is a statistic" has some relevance. Numbers can literally numb us. That is why I compare the death count to cities, which I hope shocks people. The number of deaths has surpassed the total population of the largest city in fifteen states.


Disease
COVID-19
Virus strain
SARS-CoV-2
Location
United States
First outbreak
Wuhan, Hubei, China[1]
Index case
Chicago, Illinois (earliest known arrival)[2]
Everett, Washington (first case report)[3]
Arrival date
January 13, 2020[4](11 months and 3 days ago)
Confirmed cases

• 16,317,892 (CDC)[5]
  
• 16,636,487 (JHU)[6]
  
• 16,339,404 (CTP)[7]
  

Recovered

• 7,469,182[8]
  

Deaths

• 300,032 (CDC)[5]
  
• 302,294 (JHU)[6]
  

Fatality rate

• 1.84% (CDC)
  
• 1.82% (JHU)
  

Disease
COVID-19
Virus strain
SARS-CoV-2
Location
Japan
First outbreak
Wuhan, Hubei, China
Index case
Kanagawa Prefecture
Arrival date
16 January 2020
(11 months)
Confirmed cases
181,870[1][2]
Recovered
153,519[1][2]
Deaths
2,643[1][2]
Fatality rate
1.45%

Quote:The Japanese citizens were indoctrinated by years of Japanese government propaganda that portrayed American soldiers as brutal savages which is why so many of the jumped off cliffs vs surrendering and being taken alive by American soldiers.

That happens when a country is under the command of a murderous cult-like organization. Note well that such anti-American propaganda was still relatively new in 1945 because it had not started until the attack on Pearl Harbor. Bushido is not the American way. That of course is over. I can think of some things that we Americans would be wise to divest ourselves of, but I am sure that you have seen that already. 

By the way -- I am not sure how well you understand probability and statistics, but I would say that the Japanese have better dealt with COVID-19 than we Americans have. In 2020 it would have been better to be in Japan than in America -- even if one was doing time in Japan for bar-room brawling. 

Donald Trump has shown reckless disregard for the value of human life in his bungled response to COVID-19. We Americans are about to divest ourselves of him as President.

We  have a vaccine that's available for use right now that being distributed in record time yet you seem to think he bungled response to COVID. You deserve whatever you get at this point, The Democrats and their base and a group of defeated/rejected Republicans divested themselves of him as President and fully invested themselves in the success of Biden/Harris ticket. So, how long are propagandists like yourself going to try and drag this crisis out at this point?  All you are are really doing now is causing further psychological/emotional damage, further isolation of people from family and loved ones and creating more problems at this point. So, what's it going to take to stop thoughtless people like you from further hampering and destroying the lives of other people? Will it take a bullet between your peoples eyes? Americans can do that since liberals are causing more harm than good. A crack across the head with a baseball bat. A bomb going off in peoples like you's homes. Defunding peoples like you's jobs and removing all their benefits. I don't place any value on partisan political hacks like yourself today. In real life, I'd grab you and beat the shit out you or walk on by as others are doing it. We aren't that far away from Democrats being held to account for their ignorance, arrogance and incompetence in this country. We aren't far away from a political cult being addressed with violence. Welcome to the 4T.

[Classic-Xer]

(12-16-2020, 10:02 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: I rail at our Coward-in-Chief for failing to do what it took to ensure that a large number of people have gone into the demographic equivalent of a black hole (death) because he defied competent and relevant medical advice that might have saved a huge chunk of 310 thousand people so that they might be around to get the vaccine. I made my choice to reduce my risks to the extent that my economic reality allows; one year of misery that allows me the chance of enjoying fifteen good years sounds like a rational-enough choice. Maybe I will take that trip to New York City someday, which would be much less likely had I caught COVID-19 and died on a respirator. 

Maybe the difference between Red America and Blue America is that Red America lives on its impulses and is unable to defer gratification, and the ability to defer gratification so characteristic of Blue America explains why Blue America has more and better education. Maybe that explains why Blue America has lower rates of crime and drug overdoses. Much of Red America lacks the talent for making statistical inferences and still believes that Donald Trump won in a landslide because everyone that many in Red America believe that nobody else voted for Joe Biden.

One could say that Red America could see the light at the end of the tunnel while the Democrats were imposing a cloud of gloom and doom over Blue America. I know a lot of people who got COVID but I don't no any who were killed by it not even the older people who had it so far as the people who read to many books were downplaying herd immunity. It really doesn't matter which way you go, the country is now more or less dead locked and it won't take much to split the country and its government at this point. War is hell and there are no rules or special protections and no one is off limits or 100% safe during times of war. Welcome to the 4T.

[Classic-Xer]

(12-16-2020, 05:42 PM)mBob Butler 54 Wrote: I've been more or less isolating for some time, so I'm not the best source of information.  I did get out last week.  I had a once a year medical appointment, and was mildly surprised they didn't work it remotely.  I was halted at the door by someone thoroughly masked who asked a bunch of questions that came town to had I any chance of having the bug.  I got to the waiting room to discover they had removed most of the chairs and scattered the rest.  It didn't take me long to figure out they were associated with the local COVID hospital, and somebody who was familiar with the bug had implemented fulll precautions.

My handyman is picking up most of my groceries.  From what he reports, the local stores are all requiring masks, have put up one way signs, are trying to encourage social distancing, but some people are not only ignoring the precautions but rubbing in people's face the fact that they are ignoring precautions.  They are being deliberately pointedly rude about it.  Some stores have their employees enforce the precautions and such stores are still civil.  Other stores are not.  It seems like we are developing red and blue grocery stores.

I have somebody come do my cleaning, twice a week.  I generally stay in my computer room mostly.  She spends most of the time elsewhere.  Both of us are masked.  Belt, meet suspenders.  Suspenders, belt.

I am not surprised by your logic that those who take no precautions don't catch the bug.  It goes with the quality of the rest of your so called logic.  I figure you are mostly wrong, but pointing it out would be pretty futile.

I've been talking to you more on the internet. I've also been out there working and going to stores and socializing with people at bars and visiting with friends and spent a few days deer hunting and a few days fishing on Lake of the Woods and more or less placing my life at risk and accepting the possibility of getting sick the entire time COVID has been around. In short, I place more value on life over all than I place on the life of a few. I figure those who believe COVID could/will kill them will do whatever it takes to protect themselves from COVID and isolate themselves from human contact. I figure the ones who take no precautions don't care if they get COVID or possibly spread it to people wearing masks who aren't likely to die from it. I hate to say it but COVID ain't that big a deal to most working people. If COVID was a big deal, you wouldn't have a handyman getting your groceries or a maid cleaning your home because they'd be isolated and living like you. Like I've mentioned, we have a ton of suckers and scardey cats and race baiters and opportunists driving Democratic politics these days.

[pbrower2a]

(12-17-2020, 02:07 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(12-16-2020, 10:02 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: I rail at our Coward-in-Chief for failing to do what it took to ensure that a large number of people have gone into the demographic equivalent of a black hole (death) because he defied competent and relevant medical advice that might have saved a huge chunk of 310 thousand people so that they might be around to get the vaccine. I made my choice to reduce my risks to the extent that my economic reality allows; one year of misery that allows me the chance of enjoying fifteen good years sounds like a rational-enough choice. Maybe I will take that trip to New York City someday, which would be much less likely had I caught COVID-19 and died on a respirator. 

Maybe the difference between Red America and Blue America is that Red America lives on its impulses and is unable to defer gratification, and the ability to defer gratification so characteristic of Blue America explains why Blue America has more and better education. Maybe that explains why Blue America has lower rates of crime and drug overdoses. Much of Red America lacks the talent for making statistical inferences and still believes that Donald Trump won in a landslide because everyone that many in Red America believe that nobody else voted for Joe Biden.

One could say that Red America could see the light at the end of the tunnel while the Democrats were imposing a cloud of gloom and doom over Blue America.

Surely you recall the old saying: the light at the end of the tunnel could be an oncoming train.

So when is it safe to quit taking precautions against COVID-19? Only when you get the vaccine and are satisfied (you will feel ill because your body will be reacting to dead viruses or antibodies, and COVID-19 is nasty) that the vaccine has an effect. 

It is still a 1.8% chance of death if you get the infection. If you are so drunk that you have a 1.8% chance of causing a vehicle collision, then you are driving drunk. 1.8% chance of death? A bite by a venomous snake or an attack by a dog are both less likely to kill you. I avoid snakes that I do not know are non-venomous, and I do not provoke dogs. I have mocked some burglar who got into a house through a dog door, which is a very dumb thing to do. There might be a dog, and it can go from being placid and well-behaved to being as ferocious as a bear or Big Cat in seconds.

(Oh, yes -- I consider a dog a more reliable defense of me or any loved ones in the dark than myself with a gun. Burglars, muggers, and rapists are meat).

Quote:I know a lot of people who got COVID but I don't no any who were killed by it not even the older people who had it so far as the people who read to many books were downplaying herd immunity.

I'd rather face a tour of military duty, which is safer. I wear a mask in public.

Quote: It really doesn't matter which way you go, the country is now more or less deadlocked and it won't take much to split the country and its government at this point.

We have gone as far as we can with the polarization that we have. The question is whether we can come together for some valid reason such as shared danger or at least economic distress that we cannot reliably evade.

Quote: War is hell and there are no rules or special protections and no one is off limits or 100% safe during times of war. Welcome to the 4T.

We are at war; people are dying at a rate characteristic of a bungled war.

[Bob Butler 54]

(12-17-2020, 03:21 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: I've been talking to you more on the internet. I've also been out there working and going to stores and socializing with people at bars and visiting with friends and spent a few days deer hunting and a few days fishing on Lake of the Woods and more or less placing my life at risk and accepting the possibility of getting sick the entire time COVID has been around. In short, I place more value on life over all than I place on the life of a few. I figure those who believe COVID could/will kill them will do whatever it takes to protect themselves from COVID and isolate themselves from human contact. I figure the ones who take no precautions don't care if they get COVID or possibly spread it to people wearing masks who aren't likely to die from it. I hate to say it but COVID ain't that big a deal to most working people. If COVID was a big deal, you wouldn't have a handyman getting your groceries or a maid cleaning your home because they'd be isolated and living like you. Like I've mentioned, we have a ton of suckers and scardey cats and race baiters and opportunists driving Democratic politics these days.

Even if you were inclined to go to a historically black church or a gay bar, what are the odds of some red nut bursting through the door with an assault rifle and blowing you away?  There just aren’t that many red nuts, even in cold weather.  The violence is at an absurdly low level as compared to COVID.  You have to really work at getting caught up in the violence.  Maybe if you own a grocery store in the ghetto or drew a knife at a protest, you’d have some small chance of getting involved in violence.  You’d have to work at it.

COVID?  Not so much.  The odds are low, but it sure wouldn’t be a surprise if you caught it.  There is a difference between taking sensible precautions and jumping at your shadow.

Suckers?  Who is sending money to an elite to prove the elite’s lies are true?  Scaredy cats?  Who is concerned about the violence?  Race baiters?  Which party is associated with the Nazi and KKK?  Opportunists?  How many pardons to you think Trump will have to hand out?

You really ought to visit Earth 1 once in a while.

[David Horn]

(12-15-2020, 10:54 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: How large was Japanese culture compared to Red culture today at the time? Red culture is about 74 million strong today. Realistically, 300,000 deaths is less than a 1% of the total population. Blue culture is about 82 million strong today. 300,000 is less than a percent of the total population for size. It's pretty clear that Covid had a greater impact on Blue Culture than Red Culture and it still does today. In short, we have no reason to change our culture. Whatever bad that is said about us is largely untrue and repeated by people who don't have a clue about us. Like I said, you and I could be neighbors or business acquaintances or passer by's but I doubt that we'd ever be friends or give two shit less about each other.

I have hard time seeing where you get your numbers.  I might be easier to cite areas that are dominated by one faction (metros for Blue and more rural for Red), in which case you're wrong.  The reddest of Red, like the Dakotas, are ignoring COVID and paying the price for it ... big time.  Cities, as a whole, are doing pretty well --amazing since they are compact so avoiding ones neighbors and coworkers is nearly impossible.

CXer Wrote:The Japanese citizens were indoctrinated by years of Japanese government propaganda that portrayed American soldiers as brutal savages which is why so many of the jumped off cliffs vs surrendering and being taken alive by American soldiers.

Japan was a totally insular culture for centuries, and is still to some extent.  No one had to indoctrinate the imperial subjects. It was all culture, top to bottom.

[Classic-Xer]

(12-17-2020, 08:07 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(12-17-2020, 03:21 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: I've been talking to you more on the internet. I've also been out there working and going to stores and socializing with people at bars and visiting with friends and spent a few days deer hunting and a few days fishing on Lake of the Woods and more or less placing my life at risk and accepting the possibility of getting sick the entire time COVID has been around. In short, I place more value on life over all than I place on the life of a few. I figure those who believe COVID could/will kill them will do whatever it takes to protect themselves from COVID and isolate themselves from human contact. I figure the ones who take no precautions don't care if they get COVID or possibly spread it to people wearing masks who aren't likely to die from it. I hate to say it but COVID ain't that big a deal to most working people. If COVID was a big deal, you wouldn't have a handyman getting your groceries or a maid cleaning your home because they'd be isolated and living like you. Like I've mentioned, we have a ton of suckers and scardey cats and race baiters and opportunists driving Democratic politics these days.

Even if you were inclined to go to a historically black church or a gay bar, what are the odds of some red nut bursting through the door with an assault rifle and blowing you away?  There just aren’t that many red nuts, even in cold weather.  The violence is at an absurdly low level as compared to COVID.  You have to really work at getting caught up in the violence.  Maybe if you own a grocery store in the ghetto or drew a knife at a protest, you’d have some small chance of getting involved in violence.  You’d have to work at it.

COVID?  Not so much.  The odds are low, but it sure wouldn’t be a surprise if you caught it.  There is a difference between taking sensible precautions and jumping at your shadow.

Suckers?  Who is sending money to an elite to prove the elite’s lies are true?  Scaredy cats?  Who is concerned about the violence?  Race baiters?  Which party is associated with the Nazi and KKK?  Opportunists?  How many pardons to you think Trump will have to hand out?

You really ought to visit Earth 1 once in a while.

I assume you will be on board with throwing a few trillion they're way to supposedly fix/combat climate change. Oh, and then there's the legislation that will be passed in its name that will impact the entire economy and raise the cost of fuel/living for everyone as well as the elites get richer and China gets more powerful. I'm back visiting with the people of Earth 1 right now. This is still Earth 1 right. Oh, the chances of going to a gay bar or a historically black church and winding up being gunned down by one of us is none. However, the chances of survival would be much greater if one of us happened to be there at the time. No, the folks at a gay bar have a greater chance of being gunned down by an Omar supporter than a Trump supporter and the folks at an historically black church has a greater chance of being gunned down by a Biden or Bird supporter than a Trump supporter. Like I said, you better be careful because the Democrats aren't bullet proof or immortal as far as I can tell.

[Classic-Xer]

(12-17-2020, 03:57 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: We are at war; people are dying at a rate characteristic of a bungled war.

According to Bob, a bungled war would have a death toll similar to that of Japan with loses in the millions. As I recall, the war with Japan and Red America at the time was pretty one sided with the Japanese taking the brunt of the loses. We aren't at war yet but when we are then at least you will know what to expect as far as loses on the Democratic side. So, how many wars have the Democrats and Rhino's bungled since they've been in power? How crisis's have we seen that they either caused or failed to prevent while they've been in power?

[Bob Butler 54]

(12-17-2020, 02:15 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: I assume you will be on board with throwing a few trillion they're way to supposedly fix/combat climate change. Oh, and then there's the legislation that will be passed in its name that will impact the entire economy and raise the cost of fuel/living for everyone as well as the elites get richer and China gets more powerful. I'm back visiting with the people of Earth 1 right now. This is still Earth 1 right.

I suppose you haven't been to Earth 1 enough to notice the hurricanes growing there or the fires on the west coast. But, yeah, I hope something will finally be done about it. I suspect it will only be a start, that the new prophets will be ticked and force real action.

With the economic disaster cause by Trump's disregard for COVID, I suspect taxing the rich will be a major part of the recovery. Even the reds might see the wisdom of that.

China? I suspect there are better ways for their leaders and elites to gather wealth and power than to meddle in violence. Starting a sea war with the US is likely as dumb as starting a land war in Asia is for us.

So, yah, try visiting Earth 1.

[Classic-Xer]

(12-17-2020, 02:56 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(12-17-2020, 02:15 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: I assume you will be on board with throwing a few trillion they're way to supposedly fix/combat climate change. Oh, and then there's the legislation that will be passed in its name that will impact the entire economy and raise the cost of fuel/living for everyone as well as the elites get richer and China gets more powerful. I'm back visiting with the people of Earth 1 right now. This is still Earth 1 right.

I suppose you haven't been to Earth 1 enough to notice the hurricanes growing there or the fires on the west coast.  But, yeah, I hope something will finally be done about it.  I suspect it will only be a start, that the new prophets will be ticked and force real action.

With the economic disaster cause by Trump's disregard for COVID, I suspect taxing the rich will be a major part of the recovery.  Even the reds might see the wisdom of that.

China?  I suspect there are better ways for their leaders and elites to gather wealth and power than to meddle in violence.  Starting a sea war with the US is likely as dumb as starting a land war in Asia is for us.

So, yah, try visiting Earth 1.

I don't see anymore hurricanes or forest fires than I've seen in the past. I hope you don't think handing 3 trillion to a group of rich people and big city bureaucrats is going to make them go away anytime soon. I hope you're not that gullible. You're to old to be that gullible. Trump shutdown travel and trade with China and the European countries yet you some how or another believe that he disregarded COVID. You know what, people like you deserve whatever it is that you get when the nation splits and your stuck with a government that's more or less penny less. What is bunch of intellectual property associated with complete disregard for reason and common sense that's widely viewed as associated with complete failure worth?

[Bob Butler 54]

(12-17-2020, 08:19 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: I don't see anymore hurricanes or forest fires than I've seen in the past.

Try visiting Earth One.  See if you can open your eyes?

(12-17-2020, 08:19 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: I hope you don't think handing 3 trillion to a group of rich people and big city bureaucrats is going to make them go away anytime soon.

No, I didn't think Trump's tax plan of cutting taxes for the rich was beneficial.  Promising to reverse that seems prudent.

(12-17-2020, 08:19 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Trump shutdown travel and trade with China and the European countries yet you some how or another believe that he disregarded COVID.

When you compare how we did compared to other countries, sure I do.

(12-17-2020, 08:19 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: What is bunch of intellectual property associated with complete disregard for reason and common sense that's widely viewed as  associated with complete failure worth?

The general policy of ignoring problems wasn't invented by Trump.  It's been going on for a while.  It's a common conservative shtick.  I don't view it as common sense.  I view it as short term selfish thinking.

[Classic-Xer]

(12-17-2020, 08:42 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(12-17-2020, 08:19 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: I don't see anymore hurricanes or forest fires than I've seen in the past.

Try visiting Earth One.  See if you can open your eyes?

(12-17-2020, 08:19 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: I hope you don't think handing 3 trillion to a group of rich people and big city bureaucrats is going to make them go away anytime soon.

No, I didn't think Trump's tax plan of cutting taxes for the rich was beneficial.  Promising to reverse that seems prudent.

(12-17-2020, 08:19 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Trump shutdown travel and trade with China and the European countries yet you some how or another believe that he disregarded COVID.

When you compare how we did compared to other countries, sure I do.

(12-17-2020, 08:19 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: What is bunch of intellectual property associated with complete disregard for reason and common sense that's widely viewed as  associated with complete failure worth?

The general policy of ignoring problems wasn't invented by Trump.  It's been going on for a while.  It's a common conservative shtick.  I don't view it as common sense.  I view it as short term selfish thinking.

I'm on Earth 1. This is Earth 1 right. How did we do compared to European countries and Europe as a whole. I heard New York and New Jersey did about as good/bad as Italy. So, OK you got rid of Trump by electing someone with dementia that a group of rich people did everything within their power to cover up and hide from the electorate for several months. If I was Chinese or Russian or an elite with business ties to either one of them or an elite looking to make millions or billions off the trillions appropriated to fund the Green New Deal whether is actually needed or not at this point in our history, I'd be able to see the value of having Biden in office. I agree, I see a lot of selfish thinking going on these days. I also see a lot of hypocrisy and arrogance being displayed as well.