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(05-27-2017, 06:46 PM)GeekyCynic Wrote: (05-27-2017, 05:48 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: (05-27-2017, 11:48 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: (05-27-2017, 08:58 AM)GeekyCynic Wrote: The Democrats needs to find new leadership already. These old Silent geezers refuse to step aside.
I tend to agree. Alas, at the level we're talking about, one doesn't step aside, one is pushed aside. Someone younger has to make a go at it.
If that someone is not at least as progressive as Pelosi, and as committed to what some consider old-fashioned liberalism as she, then it's no use to replace her. She would be replaced with someone younger with older ideas. Like that other Ryan who wanted the job. We didn't need two Ryans anyway.
When she was given a chance, for a couple of years, she got a lot of good things passed. Too bad they were blocked or eviscerated by the Silent-dominated DINOs in the Senate-- like that creep Lieberman whom Trump almost hired because his law partner was Trump's lawyer.
She is not THAT progressive. She immediately took impeachment of Bush off the table when she became a Speaker and also refuses to support single-payer.
Someone more progressive would be nice. Someone younger may or may not fill the bill. These days the younger members of congress tend to be more conservative, too-influenced by the right-wing trends of the last 40 years.
I suspect Pelosi would support single-payer if she thought it could pass.
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(05-27-2017, 06:51 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: (05-27-2017, 06:46 PM)GeekyCynic Wrote: (05-27-2017, 05:48 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: (05-27-2017, 11:48 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: (05-27-2017, 08:58 AM)GeekyCynic Wrote: The Democrats needs to find new leadership already. These old Silent geezers refuse to step aside.
I tend to agree. Alas, at the level we're talking about, one doesn't step aside, one is pushed aside. Someone younger has to make a go at it.
If that someone is not at least as progressive as Pelosi, and as committed to what some consider old-fashioned liberalism as she, then it's no use to replace her. She would be replaced with someone younger with older ideas. Like that other Ryan who wanted the job. We didn't need two Ryans anyway.
When she was given a chance, for a couple of years, she got a lot of good things passed. Too bad they were blocked or eviscerated by the Silent-dominated DINOs in the Senate-- like that creep Lieberman whom Trump almost hired because his law partner was Trump's lawyer.
She is not THAT progressive. She immediately took impeachment of Bush off the table when she became a Speaker and also refuses to support single-payer.
Someone more progressive would be nice. Someone younger may or may not fill the bill. These days the younger members of congress tend to be more conservative, too-influenced by the right-wing trends of the last 40 years.
I suspect Pelosi would support single-payer if she thought it could pass.
There are exceptions such as Tulsi Gabbard, congresswoman from Hawaii.
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(05-27-2017, 06:43 PM)GeekyCynic Wrote: (05-27-2017, 11:48 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: (05-27-2017, 08:58 AM)GeekyCynic Wrote: The Democrats needs to find new leadership already. These old Silent geezers refuse to step aside.
I tend to agree. Alas, at the level we're talking about, one doesn't step aside, one is pushed aside. Someone younger has to make a go at it.
The Lost and GI seemed more willing to step aside.
I knew the Lost and GI's and were far more rational than many Silent and pretty much all of the Boomers. They never had this idea that they would live forever and so made sure there were youngsters coming up in the ranks. Boomers have always thought that they would live forever.
Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard. -- H.L. Mencken
If one rejects laissez faire on account of man's fallibility and moral weakness, one must for the same reason also reject every kind of government action. -- Ludwig von Mises
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(05-27-2017, 01:03 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: (05-26-2017, 03:09 PM)Galen Wrote: (05-26-2017, 12:07 PM)Eric the Obtuse (accurate description restored) Wrote: Apparently less than half of the apparent 700,000 registered voters voted, and most of them voted early. So this result was due to many Montana citizens not voting in a special election. Their only recourse now, if they want to have someone other than a thug represent them, is to recall him, if they can. Polls also show that they still approve of the thug in the White House who inspired Gianforte's behavior. This also needs to change, if Montana is to join the civilized world again.
Given the current reputation of the mainstream media beating up that reporter was probably helped him get elected. Newspapers have been on life support for some time and these days only the geezers watch TV news.
When political violence becomes normal, democracy dies. Political violence seems incompatible with any libertarian essay that I have ever seen.
I didn't say that I approved. With a mainstream press that shows a consistent and leftward bias it is just not terribly surprising when this happens. Simply another example of how the press and Dims are seriously out of touch with the common man.
Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard. -- H.L. Mencken
If one rejects laissez faire on account of man's fallibility and moral weakness, one must for the same reason also reject every kind of government action. -- Ludwig von Mises
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(05-27-2017, 05:43 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: (05-27-2017, 01:03 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: (05-26-2017, 03:09 PM)Galen Wrote: (05-26-2017, 12:07 PM)Eric the Obtuse (accurate description restored) Wrote: Apparently less than half of the apparent 700,000 registered voters voted, and most of them voted early. So this result was due to many Montana citizens not voting in a special election. Their only recourse now, if they want to have someone other than a thug represent them, is to recall him, if they can. Polls also show that they still approve of the thug in the White House who inspired Gianforte's behavior. This also needs to change, if Montana is to join the civilized world again.
Given the current reputation of the mainstream media beating up that reporter was probably helped him get elected. Newspapers have been on life support for some time and these days only the geezers watch TV news.
When political violence becomes normal, democracy dies. Political violence seems incompatible with any libertarian essay that I have ever seen.
Hypocrite! You have outed yourself.
Indeed he has, and not for the first time. Liberty and democracy are impossible without a free press. Those Trump supporters and other right-wingers like Galen are upset at the press because it tells the truth and because it wants answers to important questions, like the one which that reporter asked.
The mainstream press hasn't really told the truth in years. Even without the corporate outlets which really are the mainstream press we do have a free press. They just live on the internet rather than on TV or the newspapers. Go back and look at what the press was like in the nineteenth century sometime.
Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard. -- H.L. Mencken
If one rejects laissez faire on account of man's fallibility and moral weakness, one must for the same reason also reject every kind of government action. -- Ludwig von Mises
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(05-28-2017, 02:47 AM)Galen Wrote: (05-27-2017, 05:43 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: (05-27-2017, 01:03 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: (05-26-2017, 03:09 PM)Galen Wrote: (05-26-2017, 12:07 PM)Eric the (insult redacted) Wrote: Apparently less than half of the apparent 700,000 registered voters voted, and most of them voted early. So this result was due to many Montana citizens not voting in a special election. Their only recourse now, if they want to have someone other than a thug represent them, is to recall him, if they can. Polls also show that they still approve of the thug in the White House who inspired Gianforte's behavior. This also needs to change, if Montana is to join the civilized world again.
Given the current reputation of the mainstream media beating up that reporter was probably helped him get elected. Newspapers have been on life support for some time and these days only the geezers watch TV news.
When political violence becomes normal, democracy dies. Political violence seems incompatible with any libertarian essay that I have ever seen.
Hypocrite! You have outed yourself.
Indeed he has, and not for the first time. Liberty and democracy are impossible without a free press. Those Trump supporters and other right-wingers like Galen are upset at the press because it tells the truth and because it wants answers to important questions, like the one which that reporter asked.
The mainstream press hasn't really told the truth in years. Even without the corporate outlets which really are the mainstream press we do have a free press. They just live on the internet rather than on TV or the newspapers. Go back and look at what the press was like in the nineteenth century sometime.
The media never can tell 'the whole story'. Much reality (as in 'the potato crop is in') may be truth, but it is not really news. With the thirty-minute (really, twenty-minutes once one cuts out the commercial breaks and scene introductions) the nightly network newscasts lack the time to discuss anything in depth. That's before I discuss the sensationalism once characteristic of Hearst newspapers as depicted in the roman-a-clef Citizen Kane, let alone such trash as the National Enquirer, the Globe, Weekly World News, etc.
'Righteous anger' is no excuse for violence. Many tyrannical leaders have used it as a pretext for shutting down criticism.
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated Communist but instead the people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists -- Hannah Arendt.
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(05-28-2017, 02:47 AM)Galen Wrote: The mainstream press hasn't really told the truth in years. Even without the corporate outlets which really are the mainstream press we do have a free press. They just live on the internet rather than on TV or the newspapers. Go back and look at what the press was like in the nineteenth century sometime.
How do you all interpret the much spun news media?
I find most outlets report facts pretty much honestly. The facts will of course be selected, be spun. Every world view and set of values comes with a notion of what is important and how it ought to be interpreted. Most of us gets their basic information on the world through a spun source. Most of us are tempted to reject information unless the news organization’s spin matches our own spin.
The commentary is spun or selected as well. If something is said in Washington, the political commentary and pundit sound bites are apt to be slanted to favor the news organization’s agenda. You might hear a competent well spoken spokesman for the favored side of the story, and an strident partisan less articulate spokesmen from the opposition. This is to be expected. If one cares about the story or issue, one ought access and consider more than one version of it.
There are also outlets that aren’t making a pretense of reporting news. Their function seemingly is to push a certain political point of view. The objective is propaganda, often as blatant and one sided as the Soviet Union’s old Pravda. Such sources might be valued less for reports of what is going on, more like an insight into what the nut jobs on the opposite side have deluded themselves into thinking. (Mind you, in this context, nobody has a particular monopoly on nut jobs.)
It seems that a lot of folk find a few sources that spin to their preference. They listen to whatever they want to hear and despise other sources as prejudiced false news. I find that on a controversial story you likely have to hear as sample of what various extreme folk are saying, and the kinda sorta almost trust the main line reporting but with insight from the extremes. This forum is kinda like that. You get heavily spun opinions which the author believes are objective rational writing, followed by a counter piece, often with different selected facts, definitely differently selected theories that structure said facts, but with the same delusion of having the one and only objective angle on the story.
There is no lack of information or opinions in todays media. There is a surplus of conflicting information and opinions, If you want a pretense of something resembling truth, you have to assume that all sources are spun, estimate the spin, and often read other sources that are known to carry an opposite spin. Reading anything from anywhere, I might spend nigh on as much mental effort figuring the outlet’s editorial and political policies as picking up information on the supposed story.
I figure competitive and comparative news reading ought to be a mandatory high school course. Everybody ought to know the common value systems a story is spun through, how to compare and contrast the same story told with different spin, and perhaps learn that the other guys aren’t fanatic crazies, they have just bought into too narrow a section of information sources.
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05-28-2017, 10:40 PM
(This post was last modified: 05-29-2017, 10:16 AM by pbrower2a.)
Indeed it is in analysis that objectivity falls apart. Reportage is generally straightforward -- so straightforward that the most reliable news source (other than official records that are definitive almost all the time barring a clerical error... as an error on a recording of a death that had a man dying of cancer in female reproductive organs) are the news wires. The requirement of speed precludes any possibility of doctoring the story. Analysis takes time.
Analysis sounds noble and erudite -- but in the hands of biased media it will reflect the bias of those involved. FoX News is infamous for bias -- but its reporting of events (breaking news) is accurate enough. Analysis is where right-wingers argue in counterpoint "We need a tax cut" while left-wingers argue that America needs to treat its poor better.
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated Communist but instead the people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists -- Hannah Arendt.
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(05-26-2017, 03:09 PM)Galen Wrote: (05-26-2017, 12:07 PM)Eric the Obtuse Wrote: Apparently less than half of the apparent 700,000 registered voters voted, and most of them voted early. So this result was due to many Montana citizens not voting in a special election. Their only recourse now, if they want to have someone other than a thug represent them, is to recall him, if they can. Polls also show that they still approve of the thug in the White House who inspired Gianforte's behavior. This also needs to change, if Montana is to join the civilized world again.
Given the current reputation of the mainstream media beating up that reporter was probably helped him get elected. Newspapers have been on life support for some time and these days only the geezers watch TV news.
Caning Charles Sumner made Rep. Preston Brooks a hero in the South, the fuckers still lost the Civil War. You right-wing nuts live in the same sort of backward bubble of stupid as the people telling Brooks "Hit him again!!!".
#MakeTheDemocratsGreatAgain
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(05-26-2017, 03:09 PM)Galen Wrote: (05-26-2017, 12:07 PM)Eric the (Insult redacted) Wrote: Apparently less than half of the apparent 700,000 registered voters voted, and most of them voted early. So this result was due to many Montana citizens not voting in a special election. Their only recourse now, if they want to have someone other than a thug represent them, is to recall him, if they can. Polls also show that they still approve of the thug in the White House who inspired Gianforte's behavior. This also needs to change, if Montana is to join the civilized world again.
Given the current reputation of the mainstream media beating up that reporter was probably helped him get elected. Newspapers have been on life support for some time and these days only the geezers watch TV news.
One step beyond beating reporters is murdering them.
The problem isn't that the reporter reported something that a political candidate didn't like. The two problems were that (1) the reporter was beaten, and (2) someone culpable in the beating got elected.
Surely, Galen the Obtuse, you must see something terribly wrong in the bar-room brawl as a means of debating issues lest you wish to show serious lapses in your moral compass.
Beatings are impressive ways to make a point, no matter how wrong the point is. The appeal to force is one of the most powerful and effective fallacies in the book -- logical or historical. It is the shakiest in logic.
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated Communist but instead the people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists -- Hannah Arendt.
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(06-02-2017, 06:27 PM)Odin Wrote: (05-26-2017, 03:09 PM)Galen Wrote: (05-26-2017, 12:07 PM)Eric the Obtuse Wrote: Apparently less than half of the apparent 700,000 registered voters voted, and most of them voted early. So this result was due to many Montana citizens not voting in a special election. Their only recourse now, if they want to have someone other than a thug represent them, is to recall him, if they can. Polls also show that they still approve of the thug in the White House who inspired Gianforte's behavior. This also needs to change, if Montana is to join the civilized world again.
Given the current reputation of the mainstream media beating up that reporter was probably helped him get elected. Newspapers have been on life support for some time and these days only the geezers watch TV news.
Caning Charles Sumner made Rep. Preston Brooks a hero in the South, the fuckers still lost the Civil War. You right-wing nuts live in the same sort of backward bubble of stupid as the people telling Brooks "Hit him again!!!".
Pointing out the actual situation doesn't necessarily indicate approval. What it does suggest is that a certain institution may in fact be in decline.
Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard. -- H.L. Mencken
If one rejects laissez faire on account of man's fallibility and moral weakness, one must for the same reason also reject every kind of government action. -- Ludwig von Mises
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(06-02-2017, 09:47 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: (05-26-2017, 03:09 PM)Galen Wrote: (05-26-2017, 12:07 PM)Eric the Obtuse (accurate description restored) Wrote: Apparently less than half of the apparent 700,000 registered voters voted, and most of them voted early. So this result was due to many Montana citizens not voting in a special election. Their only recourse now, if they want to have someone other than a thug represent them, is to recall him, if they can. Polls also show that they still approve of the thug in the White House who inspired Gianforte's behavior. This also needs to change, if Montana is to join the civilized world again.
Given the current reputation of the mainstream media beating up that reporter was probably helped him get elected. Newspapers have been on life support for some time and these days only the geezers watch TV news.
One step beyond beating reporters is murdering them.
Pointing out that people are having problems with the mainstream media doesn't indicate that I necessarily approve. It does show that the media and the political elites are out of step with much of the population. Should this continue then it does seem likely that worse will happen to them. Just because people are reacting as I expect doesn't mean I approve of it.
There is a solution to this problem but I very much doubt that the political class will be in favor of it. I am pretty sure that you and Eric the Obtuse will not be.
Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard. -- H.L. Mencken
If one rejects laissez faire on account of man's fallibility and moral weakness, one must for the same reason also reject every kind of government action. -- Ludwig von Mises
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06-03-2017, 08:24 AM
(This post was last modified: 06-03-2017, 08:25 AM by pbrower2a.)
(06-03-2017, 01:18 AM)Galen Wrote: (06-02-2017, 09:47 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: (05-26-2017, 03:09 PM)Galen Wrote: (05-26-2017, 12:07 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: Apparently less than half of the apparent 700,000 registered voters voted, and most of them voted early. So this result was due to many Montana citizens not voting in a special election. Their only recourse now, if they want to have someone other than a thug represent them, is to recall him, if they can. Polls also show that they still approve of the thug in the White House who inspired Gianforte's behavior. This also needs to change, if Montana is to join the civilized world again.
Given the current reputation of the mainstream media beating up that reporter was probably helped him get elected. Newspapers have been on life support for some time and these days only the geezers watch TV news.
One step beyond beating reporters is murdering them.
Pointing out that people are having problems with the mainstream media doesn't indicate that I necessarily approve. It does show that the media and the political elites are out of step with much of the population. Should this continue then it does seem likely that worse will happen to them. Just because people are reacting as I expect doesn't mean I approve of it.
Genuine freedom requires the suppression of certain bad behaviors, including aggressive violence, fraud, and personal abuse. A disagreement on political values is not an excuse for even throwing a punch, let alone shooting someone or consigning one to imprisonment .
Quote:There is a solution to this problem but I very much doubt that the political class will be in favor of it. I am pretty sure that you and Eric will not be.
Considering how unpopular Donald Trump has become in Michigan, I can see some potential for a secessionist cause in 2019 or so should the Trump administration become an authoritarian regime. Of course Michigan might not be all that desirable as a province of Canada, as we have too much crime and too many guns.
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated Communist but instead the people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists -- Hannah Arendt.
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Never let the perfect be the enemy of the good. Maybe we must at times use the bad as the defense against the horrific (let us say, choosing Schuschnigg over Hitler) in the expectation that genuine evil has an overpowering drive to entrench itself forever.
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated Communist but instead the people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists -- Hannah Arendt.
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(06-08-2017, 10:36 AM)X_4AD_84 Wrote: (06-08-2017, 08:50 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: ![[Image: 18838924_10211712527441636_8789825144863...e=59AB1DDA]](https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/18838924_10211712527441636_8789825144863827320_n.jpg?oh=1c0254cd041af064af3390668d568a92&oe=59AB1DDA)
By 2020 hopefully Trump will have either been impeached or quit, and there will be a real leader on the GOP ticket.
Maybe, but for that to happen, I think Democrats have to start winning elections, and win a lot of them, before then. Real pressure has to come from the people, and votes are what matters. Will all the marches and the complaints translate into votes? That's not altogether clear. Votes for Republicans now, are votes for Trump.
I don't think there are any "real leaders" on the GOP side anyway now. They all need to go. Even just looking at it objectively, which I can do through the horoscope score, which shows their potential to connect with the American people and win elections, which an observer can pretty much notice even without the horoscope scores, the GOP has no-one right now. So, they may get someone on the ticket other than Trump or Pence, but (s)he is unlikely to win. And (s)he is also unlikely to be a real leader. Such folks do not exist within that Party these days. Even Kasich, as I said, may have some integrity and common sense, but he has no potential as a national leader because he can't connect with people.
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(06-08-2017, 03:17 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: (06-08-2017, 10:36 AM)X_4AD_84 Wrote: By 2020 hopefully Trump will have either been impeached or quit, and there will be a real leader on the GOP ticket.
Maybe, but for that to happen, I think Democrats have to start winning elections, and win a lot of them, before then. Real pressure has to come from the people, and votes are what matters. Will all the marches and the complaints translate into votes? That's not altogether clear. Votes for Republicans now, are votes for Trump.
I don't think there are any "real leaders" on the GOP side anyway now. They all need to go. Even just looking at it objectively, which I can do through the horoscope score, which shows their potential to connect with the American people and win elections, which an observer can pretty much notice even without the horoscope scores, the GOP has no-one right now. So, they may get someone on the ticket other than Trump or Pence, but (s)he is unlikely to win. And (s)he is also unlikely to be a real leader. Such folks do not exist within that Party these days. Even Kasich, as I said, may have some integrity and common sense, but he has no potential as a national leader because he can't connect with people.
While you may be right, the Democrats may be in even worse shape. They have been effectively marginalized by their own supporters. Here's a good synopsis by both insiders and outsiders.
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The Trump/Obama voters will certainly need to wake up and see the actual facts about whom is for whom. Their opinions are wrong, and that's on them. No doubt, however, Trump as a good communicator and salesman is still formidable, even if he continues to screw up badly. Persuasive, effective Democratic presidential candidates are also few, and are not among the current favorites. Down ballot, Ossoff is good in GA, but Quist in MT wasn't all that great. We'll see.
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(06-08-2017, 08:50 AM)Eric the Green Wrote:
There will be more than one on each side. The conservatives and Tea Party folk will be looking at the same sort of questions as presented above to the liberals and independents. I can agree that the Liberals and independents are not unified behind a person or perspective, but think the conservatives just as muddled. Their establishment got booted out of the process by that perceived outsider too.
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Trump deceived people, some of whom are in economic trouble in depressed states, to think he was anti-establishment. That was a lie. He is the essence and substance of the Establishment. He is carrying out their plans to increase the power of the Establishment in every facet of our lives. Libertarian economics is their constant mantra. They are sitting around Trump in the cabinet, praising their leader like he's the savior. The Republican side, although it has its divisions, seems to have an easier time uniting behind someone who may not be their first choice, because they are authoritarians and better able to accept whichever candidate representing authority and the elite is chosen, and who can carry out their destructive plans.
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