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(04-21-2020, 10:35 AM)Isoko Wrote: Blazkovitz,
I think this 4T isn't just a cultural war but also the decline of a society and what is the best way forwards. It is interesting to note that the nationalist BRICs are doing better then the globalist West in this paradigm. So if the West does abandon globalism and retreats more into nationalism, it is going to be a cultural shock for the millennials in particular.
Hopefully that's what happens. I'm anti pure democracy because I know what happens when everything is majority rule. I'm also against the media and universities in general. College is being used as a government brainwashing center. Why should we listen to the majority if the majority wants stupid policies? If the majority wants globalism too damn bad.
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AspieMillenial,
Your view point is quite valid. Living in Russia, I tend to find the younger generation here is not dogmatic and tend to be interested in opposing points of view. I have had many interesting debates with Russian young people. I would say that they are more individualistic in a sense that they are willing to tolerate others views.
In the West however, the Millennials are entirely collectivistic and only accept the current dogma as a religious belief entirely. No alternative view is accepted and that is why many dissident writers had to go more underground because of the lack of free speech. I remember during my college days how you would get actual recruiters for antifa drives outside educational institutions...sounds all very red guard if you will.
I think it is this zeal that will put off future generations from globalisation and the world state for a while. They will regard it as some form of fascism and not want to play ball with it.
However I would like to add thanks to idiots like Richard Spencer and the like, opposing views have been decried as another form of racism that must be combatted. I would add that Charlottesville was not only the death of the alt right but of any opposing point of view to the mainstream. I have yet to see anything that can challenge the left in terms of debate really resurfacing since then...
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(04-21-2020, 12:20 PM)AspieMillennial Wrote: (04-21-2020, 10:35 AM)Isoko Wrote: Blazkovitz,
I think this 4T isn't just a cultural war but also the decline of a society and what is the best way forwards. It is interesting to note that the nationalist BRICs are doing better then the globalist West in this paradigm. So if the West does abandon globalism and retreats more into nationalism, it is going to be a cultural shock for the millennials in particular.
Hopefully that's what happens. I'm anti pure democracy because I know what happens when everything is majority rule. I'm also against the media and universities in general. College is being used as a government brainwashing center. Why should we listen to the majority if the majority wants stupid policies? If the majority wants globalism too damn bad.
Aspie,
You cannot save the West at this point as the globalist policies are too entrenched into the system just like Communism was in the USSR. I can tell you exactly what will happen to the West and it ain't a pretty picture.
Right now , you can see the current elites are flirting with nationalism but they don't want to go the entire distance of restricted borders and actually building a national economy for people to live in. They aren't actually challenging the politically correct status quo. Donald Trump is like Mikhail Gorbachev. A hated man who the entrenched elites refuse to listen to.
What will happen is more crises will appear on the horizon and the elites will eventually lose faith with globalism. They will quickly switch to nationalism, sell off what they can to save themselves and this itself will bring about the collapse of the West. When they simply cannot hold the system together anymore. It's the same story that happened in the USSR. I'd argue in essence that Trump has sort of established his very own glasnost. Same with Boris Johnson.
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04-21-2020, 12:40 PM
(This post was last modified: 04-21-2020, 12:43 PM by AspieMillennial.)
(04-21-2020, 12:27 PM)Isoko Wrote: AspieMillenial,
Your view point is quite valid. Living in Russia, I tend to find the younger generation here is not dogmatic and tend to be interested in opposing points of view. I have had many interesting debates with Russian young people. I would say that they are more individualistic in a sense that they are willing to tolerate others views.
In the West however, the Millennials are entirely collectivistic and only accept the current dogma as a religious belief entirely. No alternative view is accepted and that is why many dissident writers had to go more underground because of the lack of free speech. I remember during my college days how you would get actual recruiters for antifa drives outside educational institutions...sounds all very red guard if you will.
I think it is this zeal that will put off future generations from globalisation and the world state for a while. They will regard it as some form of fascism and not want to play ball with it.
However I would like to add thanks to idiots like Richard Spencer and the like, opposing views have been decried as another form of racism that must be combatted. I would add that Charlottesville was not only the death of the alt right but of any opposing point of view to the mainstream. I have yet to see anything that can challenge the left in terms of debate really resurfacing since then...
I'm an individualist Millennial in the West. Does this mean I was born in the wrong generation?
I'm not afraid to openly debate people because I don't care if the normies get offended or not. I can and will say whatever I want and other people must deal with it. Is it a contradiction that I'm both individualistic and dogmatic?
The more the majority opposes me the more firmly entrenched I am in my views. The more the majority wants to shut me down the louder I want to be. I don't believe in compromise because it means the majority trampling you. The more wrong the majority are, the fiercer your opposition must be.
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Aspie,
Yeah I would say so. I realised a while ago that I was born into the wrong generation too. But I will tell you a secret. When the West does meet a sticky end, all of those dogmatic millennials will instead jump onboard the next train of thought because they are unfortunately as a majority incapable of not being part of the strong group. It happened in the USSR when die hard apparatchik atheists suddenly became devout Orthodox Christians over night. Literally. They had to believe in something so switched beliefs very quickly.
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(04-21-2020, 12:32 PM)Isoko Wrote: (04-21-2020, 12:20 PM)AspieMillennial Wrote: (04-21-2020, 10:35 AM)Isoko Wrote: Blazkovitz,
I think this 4T isn't just a cultural war but also the decline of a society and what is the best way forwards. It is interesting to note that the nationalist BRICs are doing better then the globalist West in this paradigm. So if the West does abandon globalism and retreats more into nationalism, it is going to be a cultural shock for the millennials in particular.
Hopefully that's what happens. I'm anti pure democracy because I know what happens when everything is majority rule. I'm also against the media and universities in general. College is being used as a government brainwashing center. Why should we listen to the majority if the majority wants stupid policies? If the majority wants globalism too damn bad.
Aspie,
You cannot save the West at this point as the globalist policies are too entrenched into the system just like Communism was in the USSR. I can tell you exactly what will happen to the West and it ain't a pretty picture.
Right now , you can see the current elites are flirting with nationalism but they don't want to go the entire distance of restricted borders and actually building a national economy for people to live in. They aren't actually challenging the politically correct status quo. Donald Trump is like Mikhail Gorbachev. A hated man who the entrenched elites refuse to listen to.
What will happen is more crises will appear on the horizon and the elites will eventually lose faith with globalism. They will quickly switch to nationalism, sell off what they can to save themselves and this itself will bring about the collapse of the West. When they simply cannot hold the system together anymore. It's the same story that happened in the USSR. I'd argue in essence that Trump has sort of established his very own glasnost. Same with Boris Johnson.
Trump and Johnson represent the elites and the system, and they do so on steroids.
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04-21-2020, 02:41 PM
(This post was last modified: 04-21-2020, 02:41 PM by Eric the Green.)
(04-21-2020, 12:20 PM)AspieMillennial Wrote: (04-21-2020, 10:35 AM)Isoko Wrote: Blazkovitz,
I think this 4T isn't just a cultural war but also the decline of a society and what is the best way forwards. It is interesting to note that the nationalist BRICs are doing better then the globalist West in this paradigm. So if the West does abandon globalism and retreats more into nationalism, it is going to be a cultural shock for the millennials in particular.
Hopefully that's what happens. I'm anti pure democracy because I know what happens when everything is majority rule. I'm also against the media and universities in general. College is being used as a government brainwashing center. Why should we listen to the majority if the majority wants stupid policies? If the majority wants globalism too damn bad.
The minority voted in the stupid policies because of our outdated electoral college and vote suppression. More democracy is needed. More college because college informs and educates. Opposition to education, media and democracy means that you support tyranny. That is the recipe. Trump is Mussolini.
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(04-21-2020, 12:14 PM)AspieMillennial Wrote: (04-21-2020, 04:43 AM)Isoko Wrote: Eric,
You know I have debated how 'diverse' millennials really are and I must confess, having come from Britain, they don't exactly live what they preach. They prefer to self segregate although stick with the propaganda that diversity is good. They have the odd non-white friend in the group but usually live in their own majority communities.
Not sure what it is like in America of course but that seemingly seems to be the trend in the UK. It's kind of like an invisible apartheid the more I think about it.
Also I wouldn't say millennials are better informed. Most of them went to predominantly left wing universities and were told was is good and what is bad so they believe it. I tend to find that the Zoomers are better informed if I am honest and they are more centrist inclined with their views...
So what should Millennials who don't agree with the consensus do? We have no allies because everyone assumes we don't exist. It pisses me off when Gen Z assumes I should be blamed for safe spaces I had nothing to do with. It made me more hardline and less compromising in my stances and also more of a lone wolf. I feel no alliance with any generation.
Agree with the millennial consensus, not because it is the consensus, but because it is right and just.
What is unjust is individualist libertarian economics, nationalism, militarism, racism, etc. The Republican Party.
When you base you views on being angry with some people you know, you are too narrow minded and you have the wrong views. Base your views on facts and truth about the general state of affairs, not on being pissed off at some Gen Zs because they supposedly blame you for safe spaces, whatever that means.
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(04-21-2020, 12:58 PM)Isoko Wrote: It happened in the USSR when die hard apparatchik atheists suddenly became devout Orthodox Christians over night. Literally. They had to believe in something so switched beliefs very quickly.
I noticed a change in personality types that are attracted to Christianity. In the past it was dreamy, peaceful woman who wanted to be brides of Christ and go to heaven. Now, at least within online culture, the main advocates are redpillers and other nationalistic, male chauvinist groups. "Muscular Christianity" which supports Putin, Trump, etc. is taking over old Victorian piety.
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(04-22-2020, 08:09 AM)Blazkovitz Wrote: (04-21-2020, 12:58 PM)Isoko Wrote: It happened in the USSR when die hard apparatchik atheists suddenly became devout Orthodox Christians over night. Literally. They had to believe in something so switched beliefs very quickly.
I noticed a change in personality types that are attracted to Christianity. In the past it was dreamy, peaceful woman who wanted to be brides of Christ and go to heaven. Now, at least within online culture, the main advocates are redpillers and other nationalistic, male chauvinist groups. "Muscular Christianity" which supports Putin, Trump, etc. is taking over old Victorian piety.
Christianity always changes depending on the dominant culture. When it was first founded, it was pacifistic. Then it became the strong arm of the state. Then it became revolutionary. Then it went into a cultist mode. Then it became pacifistic again. Now it is starting to attract the strongmen who are deeply concerned about the decline of the West. The church militant they call it and unlike before, they want to fight.
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04-23-2020, 03:49 AM
(This post was last modified: 04-23-2020, 03:50 AM by Blazkovitz.)
(04-22-2020, 10:52 AM)Isoko Wrote: Christianity always changes depending on the dominant culture. When it was first founded, it was pacifistic. Then it became the strong arm of the state. Then it became revolutionary. Then it went into a cultist mode. Then it became pacifistic again. Now it is starting to attract the strongmen who are deeply concerned about the decline of the West. The church militant they call it and unlike before, they want to fight.
Very good observation 
So, where do you think have the "goody-goody" people gone? I mean, I still know nice old style Christian guys and ladies, but they are in the late 30s or 40s.
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They still exist in groups like the Church of England but they are a dying breed. The church itself will eventually have to become more militant in order to survive, as was the case with Judaism. During the 19th century, Judaism actually was not being taken seriously by the people at all, with Theodor Herzl himself feeling it would be best if the Jewish people just vanished and assimilated into the West. Then the persecutions and eventual genocide happened. Now Judaism has been on a defensive, militant stance ever since.
It is just the nature of religion's. They go through various cycles themselves. Islam itself needs to go through a true reformation period as they are 500 years behind Christianity in that regard. If it comes to ages, we can say Judaism is old, Christianity is middle aged and Islam is young.
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05-02-2020, 09:07 AM
(This post was last modified: 05-02-2020, 10:28 AM by Blazkovitz.)
(04-21-2020, 02:45 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: Agree with the millennial consensus, not because it is the consensus, but because it is right and just.
Let's see ;P
Points I agree with:
-Cosmopolitanism, aka the "global we". Internet definitely helped with this one.
-Communitarian economics.
-Rationalism, Millennials are definitely less prone to magical thinking than among Boomers, GIs or even Missionaries
-More neat than generation X, since Millennial culture kicked in some toxic subcultures from the 3T died down (this might be partially reversed because of the 90s nostalgia)
Points I have issue with:
-Climate alarmism
-Compromising free speech to protect the "victimized" groups from hearing unpleasant truth e.g. about rampant narcissism and hedonism in the LGBT community
-Overuse of social media and digital gadgets
-Mainstreaming marijuana
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(05-02-2020, 09:07 AM)Blazkovitz Wrote: -Rationalism, Millennials are definitely less prone to magical thinking than among Boomers, GIs or even Missionaries
What is your definition of "magical thinking"? I'm curious if it matches my wife's definition.
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05-02-2020, 06:13 PM
(This post was last modified: 05-02-2020, 06:18 PM by Eric the Green.)
(05-02-2020, 09:07 AM)Blazkovitz Wrote: (04-21-2020, 02:45 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: Agree with the millennial consensus, not because it is the consensus, but because it is right and just.
Let's see ;P
Points I agree with:
-Cosmopolitanism, aka the "global we". Internet definitely helped with this one.
-Communitarian economics.
-Rationalism, Millennials are definitely less prone to magical thinking than among Boomers, GIs or even Missionaries
-More neat than generation X, since Millennial culture kicked in some toxic subcultures from the 3T died down (this might be partially reversed because of the 90s nostalgia)
Agreed, BUT---
Being prone to "magical thinking" myself, I am glad that some millennials are rediscovering some parts of it. Life is indeed a riddle, a miracle and a mystery. What amuses me is that some chemists think they can reproduce it. A doc I just saw put it a bit better. The building blocks of life, the right molecules and such, can be assembled, but the way to "recreate" life "in the lab" is not to try to make it happen by the chemist's own activities, but to recreate the conditions and then let it happen again on its own. Life is spontaneous and self-creating. That is what makes it alive. It was nor forced by some external cause. Mechanical events are not life, but death. To realize that life is essentially magic, is correct magical thinking.
Realizing this, "magical thinking" becomes a part of science. When millennials don't get caught up in interpreting science facts as dogmatic reduction to mechanistic determinism, and not all millennials do this, then millennials' respect for science can be a relief from other kinds of not-so-magical thinking, like conspiracy theory, in which speculation substitutes for scientific thought and investigation. And boomer tendency to crusading self-righteous ideology, much like the Missionaries in that regard, can be checked by this pro-science millennial outlook as well. Science, because it seeks objectively-verifiable fact, has a tendency to encourage reductionism and devalue the subjective, but if it can be seen in proper perspective, science is the tool we need to substantiate claims about reality that are observable and verifiable, and revival of science among millennials is an expected but welcome trend.
Xer outrageous style and messy behavior had its place, but the millennials seem more balanced and less vulgar, and that is a relief as well.
Quote:Points I have issue with:
-Climate alarmism
-Compromising free speech to protect the "victimized" groups from hearing unpleasant truth e.g. about rampant narcissism and hedonism in the LGBT community
-Overuse of social media and digital gadgets
-Mainstreaming marijuana
You still refer to climate alarmism?
I have hope that you will do some reading on the climate crisis to see what your point of view should really be. If anything, climate change is proceeding worse than the models (which deniers denounce as alarmist speculation) even predicted. It means we need to re-imagine the place and style of technology and commerce in our lives, not just assume that material progress is our most important product; that Earth, our unique cosmic jewel of a home, is a prime value in Herself.
Why not rejoice in narcissism and hedonism sometimes? Love of self and pleasure brings joy to life.
But yeah, the digital world has millennials hypnotized, and this has its negative aspects for sure. So, I type this on my big digital gadget. They have hypnotized all of us to an extent.
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05-04-2020, 07:07 AM
(This post was last modified: 05-04-2020, 08:45 AM by Blazkovitz.)
(05-02-2020, 11:36 AM)Warren Dew Wrote: (05-02-2020, 09:07 AM)Blazkovitz Wrote: -Rationalism, Millennials are definitely less prone to magical thinking than among Boomers, GIs or even Missionaries
What is your definition of "magical thinking"? I'm curious if it matches my wife's definition.
Belief in supernatural beings, extrasensory perception, miracles. Belief that prayer and meditation can achieve anything beyond good feelings. Magical thinking is believing in anything you could use to win the Randi prize.
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(05-04-2020, 07:07 AM)Blazkovitz Wrote: (05-02-2020, 11:36 AM)Warren Dew Wrote: (05-02-2020, 09:07 AM)Blazkovitz Wrote: -Rationalism, Millennials are definitely less prone to magical thinking than among Boomers, GIs or even Missionaries
What is your definition of "magical thinking"? I'm curious if it matches my wife's definition.
Belief in supernatural beings, extrasensory perception, miracles. Belief that prayer and meditation can achieve anything beyond good feelings. Magical thinking is believing in anything you could use to win the Randi prize.
Thanks. That makes sense for millenials, though I think GIs were also pretty rational.
My wife uses the definition "belief that policies will be effective because they are well intentioned", a form of magical thinking that Millenials seem to be at least as susceptible to as other generations. Skepticism about that form of magical thinking may be more of an age thing rather than a cohort thing, though.
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05-04-2020, 10:57 PM
(This post was last modified: 05-04-2020, 10:58 PM by Eric the Green.)
(05-04-2020, 07:07 AM)Blazkovitz Wrote: (05-02-2020, 11:36 AM)Warren Dew Wrote: (05-02-2020, 09:07 AM)Blazkovitz Wrote: -Rationalism, Millennials are definitely less prone to magical thinking than among Boomers, GIs or even Missionaries
What is your definition of "magical thinking"? I'm curious if it matches my wife's definition.
Belief in supernatural beings, extrasensory perception, miracles. Belief that prayer and meditation can achieve anything beyond good feelings. Magical thinking is believing in anything you could use to win the Randi prize.
Proud to be interested in such magical thinking, though I also like scientific verification of same. But as I reminded you, life cannot be anything but a miracle. Millennials need to re-learn this, but some of them are doing it.
1966 was a magic moment when people such as myself opened up to magical possibilities. So wonderful, the best year I ever experienced.
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05-04-2020, 11:02 PM
(This post was last modified: 05-04-2020, 11:04 PM by Eric the Green.)
(05-04-2020, 12:39 PM)Warren Dew Wrote: (05-04-2020, 07:07 AM)Blazkovitz Wrote: (05-02-2020, 11:36 AM)Warren Dew Wrote: (05-02-2020, 09:07 AM)Blazkovitz Wrote: -Rationalism, Millennials are definitely less prone to magical thinking than among Boomers, GIs or even Missionaries
What is your definition of "magical thinking"? I'm curious if it matches my wife's definition.
Belief in supernatural beings, extrasensory perception, miracles. Belief that prayer and meditation can achieve anything beyond good feelings. Magical thinking is believing in anything you could use to win the Randi prize.
Thanks. That makes sense for millenials, though I think GIs were also pretty rational.
My wife uses the definition "belief that policies will be effective because they are well intentioned", a form of magical thinking that Millennials seem to be at least as susceptible to as other generations. Skepticism about that form of magical thinking may be more of an age thing rather than a cohort thing, though.
That belief happens on both sides of the political aisle. Libertarians and believers in the magic of supply-side trickle-down economics and the generosity of "job creaters" certainly fits the bill. But so was the belief of myself and other hippie-inclined folk that some peace and love and maybe some destiny in the stars would bring about a new age soon. Not so easy.
But good intentions married to some really-effective magic, who knows what good results can happen
And so can bad intentions wedded to effective magic can bring about results of a negative kind, as Hitler once and Trump currently demonstrates.
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(05-04-2020, 12:39 PM)Warren Dew Wrote: (05-04-2020, 07:07 AM)Blazkovitz Wrote: (05-02-2020, 11:36 AM)Warren Dew Wrote: (05-02-2020, 09:07 AM)Blazkovitz Wrote: -Rationalism, Millennials are definitely less prone to magical thinking than among Boomers, GIs or even Missionaries
What is your definition of "magical thinking"? I'm curious if it matches my wife's definition.
Belief in supernatural beings, extrasensory perception, miracles. Belief that prayer and meditation can achieve anything beyond good feelings. Magical thinking is believing in anything you could use to win the Randi prize.
Thanks. That makes sense for millenials, though I think GIs were also pretty rational.
Missionaries were prone to magical beliefs during the 2T, but then went more rational after WW1. At the same time they retained a sense of awe for the wonderful Universe. Dawkins called this experience Einsteinian religion.
Quote:My wife uses the definition "belief that policies will be effective because they are well intentioned", a form of magical thinking that Millenials seem to be at least as susceptible to as other generations. Skepticism about that form of magical thinking may be more of an age thing rather than a cohort thing, though.
We need evidence-based politics. Maybe it will be invented during the 1T?
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