Estimating who belongs in S&H's Millennials (not mainstream Millennials)

[Ghost]

DELETE

[Captain Genet]

If the 4T drags on till 2030, it's likely that end date for millennials will be about 2010.

Wikipedia defines generation alpha as 2010-25, this looks like preliminary dates for new artists. Millennials and Pew's Z are just two waves of civics. At least according to my idea that coming of age is more important than early childhood.

[David Horn]

(06-15-2021, 06:29 AM)Captain Genet Wrote: If the 4T drags on till 2030, it's likely that end date for millennials will be about 2010.

Wikipedia defines generation alpha as 2010-25, this looks like preliminary dates for new artists. Millennials and Pew's Z are just two waves of civics. At least according to my idea that coming of age is more important than early childhood.

My grandchildren and their friends are all born in 2004 or 2005. Noe are Millennials in the archetypal sense of the term, though at least a few have Artist tendencies.  If 2008 began the 4T, then 2010 is simply to late.

[Eric the Green]

(06-15-2021, 06:29 AM)Captain Genet Wrote: If the 4T drags on till 2030, it's likely that end date for millennials will be about 2010.

Wikipedia defines generation alpha as 2010-25, this looks like preliminary dates for new artists. Millennials and Pew's Z are just two waves of civics. At least according to my idea that coming of age is more important than early childhood.

"Millennials and Pew's Z are just two waves of civics." Exactly. Gen Z arrived in circa 2003-04. Generation Alpha will start arriving soon, about 2025.

If the 4T drags on until 2030, the Alpha Generation will have arrived right on time.

The schedule is right on time. IMO no adjustment to your generation set is necessary. The saeculum is in control.

[Captain Genet]

(06-15-2021, 02:09 PM)David Horn Wrote:

(06-15-2021, 06:29 AM)Captain Genet Wrote: If the 4T drags on till 2030, it's likely that end date for millennials will be about 2010.

Wikipedia defines generation alpha as 2010-25, this looks like preliminary dates for new artists. Millennials and Pew's Z are just two waves of civics. At least according to my idea that coming of age is more important than early childhood.

My grandchildren and their friends are all born in 2004 or 2005. Noe are Millennials in the archetypal sense of the term, though at least a few have Artist tendencies.  If 2008 began the 4T, then 2010 is simply to late.

People born in 2004 will be 26 in 2030. It means many of them will have worked full-time, married and become parents in the 4T. An Artist is supposed to have only childhood or adolescent experiences of the 4T, not adult ones. Though my niece was born in 2005 and my friend's kids in 2008, for now they are more artists than civics, but a prolonged 4T might remake them into cuspers.

For the same reason I doubt people born in 1982-5 are millennials.

[Ghost]

(06-16-2021, 02:50 AM)Captain Genet Wrote:

(06-15-2021, 02:09 PM)David Horn Wrote:

(06-15-2021, 06:29 AM)Captain Genet Wrote: If the 4T drags on till 2030, it's likely that end date for millennials will be about 2010.

Wikipedia defines generation alpha as 2010-25, this looks like preliminary dates for new artists. Millennials and Pew's Z are just two waves of civics. At least according to my idea that coming of age is more important than early childhood.

My grandchildren and their friends are all born in 2004 or 2005. Noe are Millennials in the archetypal sense of the term, though at least a few have Artist tendencies.  If 2008 began the 4T, then 2010 is simply to late.

People born in 2004 will be 26 in 2030. It means many of them will have worked full-time, married and become parents in the 4T. An Artist is supposed to have only childhood or adolescent experiences of the 4T, not adult ones. Though my niece was born in 2005 and my friend's kids in 2008, for now they are more artists than civics, but a prolonged 4T might remake them into cuspers.

For the same reason I doubt people born in 1982-5 are millennials.

You can't really take 1982-85 out of Millennials. 1982 babies are literally who the term was coined for in the first place, and people born in 1983-85 came of age even later.

2010 is simply too late for Millennials to end. They were born after the 2008 Financial Crisis, and there's a high likelihood they will come of age during 1T. There are a lot of people who are trying to boot me out of Millennials because I didn't vote in the Trump vs. Hillary election and was only two when 9/11 happened (I generally see this behavior coming from questionable 97-98 babies), and I believe there is even someone on here (might no longer be active) who doesn't include 1999 in Millennials.

[David Horn]

(06-16-2021, 02:50 AM)Captain Genet Wrote:

(06-15-2021, 02:09 PM)David Horn Wrote:

(06-15-2021, 06:29 AM)Captain Genet Wrote: If the 4T drags on till 2030, it's likely that end date for millennials will be about 2010.

Wikipedia defines generation alpha as 2010-25, this looks like preliminary dates for new artists. Millennials and Pew's Z are just two waves of civics. At least according to my idea that coming of age is more important than early childhood.

My grandchildren and their friends are all born in 2004 or 2005. Noe are Millennials in the archetypal sense of the term, though at least a few have Artist tendencies.  If 2008 began the 4T, then 2010 is simply to late.

People born in 2004 will be 26 in 2030. It means many of them will have worked full-time, married and become parents in the 4T. An Artist is supposed to have only childhood or adolescent experiences of the 4T, not adult ones. Though my niece was born in 2005 and my friend's kids in 2008, for now they are more artists than civics, but a prolonged 4T might remake them into cuspers.

For the same reason I doubt people born in 1982-5 are millennials.

I can't see a 4T that began in 2008 lasting that long.  2Ts and 4Ts are simply too exhausting to hang-on for 22 years.  If we cut that back to 18 years, then the 2004 cohorts will be 22 -- a reasonable age for the eldest Artists to enter a 1T.

[Captain Genet]

(06-16-2021, 08:53 AM)Ghost Wrote: You can't really take 1982-85 out of Millennials. 1982 babies are literally who the term was coined for in the first place, and people born in 1983-85 came of age even later.

The names of the generations are flawed. The year 2000, the Gregorian millennium was not that significant after all. I'd prefer to call the Civics something like Onliners.

Quote:2010 is simply too late for Millennials to end. They were born after the 2008 Financial Crisis, and there's a high likelihood they will come of age during 1T. There are a lot of people who are trying to boot me out of Millennials because I didn't vote in the Trump vs. Hillary election and was only two when 9/11 happened (I generally see this behavior coming from questionable 97-98 babies), and I believe there is even someone on here (might no longer be active) who doesn't include 1999 in Millennials.

That was a conditional sentence: IF 4T lasts till 2030 THEN people born in 2010 could be civics.

[Dustinw5220]

(06-15-2021, 02:15 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(06-15-2021, 06:29 AM)Captain Genet Wrote: If the 4T drags on till 2030, it's likely that end date for millennials will be about 2010.

Wikipedia defines generation alpha as 2010-25, this looks like preliminary dates for new artists. Millennials and Pew's Z are just two waves of civics. At least according to my idea that coming of age is more important than early childhood.

"Millennials and Pew's Z are just two waves of civics." Exactly. Gen Z arrived in circa 2003-04. Generation Alpha will start arriving soon, about 2025.

If the 4T drags on until 2030, the Alpha Generation will have arrived right on time.

The schedule is right on time. IMO no adjustment to your generation set is necessary. The saeculum is in control.

I agree with just about all of this, 2025 seems like the perfect time for the new Prophets/Idealists (or more specifically, Generation Alpha) to arrive, especially if the parallels to the Civil War are accurate. I know you sometimes criticized S&H's tendency to always start a new generation RIGHT on the cusp of a new year, frankly I also always found that somewhat suspect myself (but otherwise, I mostly agree with their dates). When would you say the new Artists/Adaptives (or the oldest members of Gen Z) officially arrived, 2003 or 2004 (and, yeah I know the date S&H gave was 2005)? Would you say 2003-2025 would be the most accurate birth years for the new Artists/Adaptives?

Also (based on the years you gave for the turnings in the next saeculum), when will the new Nomads/Reactives, Heroes/Civics, and Artists/Civics arrive (not Gen Z, but the ones after that), and if the (current) new Artists/Adaptives are Gen Z and the new Prophets/Idealists are Generation Alpha, what might those generations be called?

[Eric the Green]

(06-16-2021, 01:51 PM)Dustinw5220 Wrote:

(06-15-2021, 02:15 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(06-15-2021, 06:29 AM)Captain Genet Wrote: If the 4T drags on till 2030, it's likely that end date for millennials will be about 2010.

Wikipedia defines generation alpha as 2010-25, this looks like preliminary dates for new artists. Millennials and Pew's Z are just two waves of civics. At least according to my idea that coming of age is more important than early childhood.

"Millennials and Pew's Z are just two waves of civics." Exactly. Gen Z arrived in circa 2003-04. Generation Alpha will start arriving soon, about 2025.

If the 4T drags on until 2030, the Alpha Generation will have arrived right on time.

The schedule is right on time. IMO no adjustment to your generation set is necessary. The saeculum is in control.

I agree with just about all of this, 2025 seems like the perfect time for the new Prophets/Idealists (or more specifically, Generation Alpha) to arrive, especially if the parallels to the Civil War are accurate. I know you sometimes criticized S&H's tendency to always start a new generation RIGHT on the cusp of a new year, frankly I also always found that somewhat suspect myself (but otherwise, I mostly agree with their dates). When would you say the new Artists/Adaptives (or the oldest members of Gen Z) officially arrived, 2003 or 2004 (and, yeah I know the date S&H gave was 2005)? Would you say 2003-2025 would be the most accurate birth years for the new Artists/Adaptives?

Also (based on the years you gave for the turnings in the next saeculum), when will the new Nomads/Reactives, Heroes/Civics, and Artists/Civics arrive (not Gen Z, but the ones after that), and if the (current) new Artists/Adaptives are Gen Z and the new Prophets/Idealists are Generation Alpha, what might those generations be called?

Those are good questions, to be answered by future generations. Myself I would say 2003 is the start date for Gen Z, but I think Mr. Howe says 2004. The next generations after Alpha, which will be starting in 2025, should follow the pattern of starting about 3-5 years before the next turning. In my 1997 book I postulated that after Gen X, generations would be called by their letters, so if that holds, as it has so far at least partially, then if the next Awakening starts in 2047, then the next nomad Generation, Gen Beta or Gen B, should start around 2044. Since dominant generations start within a year or two of when Neptune enters a cardinal sign, then the next civic generation, Generation C for civic, should start around 2065, when Neptune enters Cancer (that's another C too). The next 3T will probably start closely after that and last until about 2090.

[Dustinw5220]

(06-16-2021, 03:01 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(06-16-2021, 01:51 PM)Dustinw5220 Wrote:

(06-15-2021, 02:15 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(06-15-2021, 06:29 AM)Captain Genet Wrote: If the 4T drags on till 2030, it's likely that end date for millennials will be about 2010.

Wikipedia defines generation alpha as 2010-25, this looks like preliminary dates for new artists. Millennials and Pew's Z are just two waves of civics. At least according to my idea that coming of age is more important than early childhood.

"Millennials and Pew's Z are just two waves of civics." Exactly. Gen Z arrived in circa 2003-04. Generation Alpha will start arriving soon, about 2025.

If the 4T drags on until 2030, the Alpha Generation will have arrived right on time.

The schedule is right on time. IMO no adjustment to your generation set is necessary. The saeculum is in control.

I agree with just about all of this, 2025 seems like the perfect time for the new Prophets/Idealists (or more specifically, Generation Alpha) to arrive, especially if the parallels to the Civil War are accurate. I know you sometimes criticized S&H's tendency to always start a new generation RIGHT on the cusp of a new year, frankly I also always found that somewhat suspect myself (but otherwise, I mostly agree with their dates). When would you say the new Artists/Adaptives (or the oldest members of Gen Z) officially arrived, 2003 or 2004 (and, yeah I know the date S&H gave was 2005)? Would you say 2003-2025 would be the most accurate birth years for the new Artists/Adaptives?

Also (based on the years you gave for the turnings in the next saeculum), when will the new Nomads/Reactives, Heroes/Civics, and Artists/Civics arrive (not Gen Z, but the ones after that), and if the (current) new Artists/Adaptives are Gen Z and the new Prophets/Idealists are Generation Alpha, what might those generations be called?

Those are good questions, to be answered by future generations. Myself I would say 2003 is the start date for Gen Z, but I think Mr. Howe says 2004. The next generations after Alpha, which will be starting in 2025, should follow the pattern of starting about 3-5 years before the next turning. In my 1997 book I postulated that after Gen X, generations would be called by their letters, so if that holds, as it has so far at least partially, then if the next Awakening starts in 2047, then the next nomad Generation, Gen Beta or Gen B, should start around 2044. Since dominant generations start within a year or two of when Neptune enters a cardinal sign, then the next civic generation, Generation C for civic, should start around 2065, when Neptune enters Cancer (that's another C too). The next 3T will probably start closely after that and last until about 2090.

C for Civic, I like that!

How would you say (based on the double rhythm you described/predicted for the cycles of history) Gen Z, Gen Alpha, Gen Beta, and Gen C might be both different and similar compared to the Silent, Boomers, Gen X, and Millennials respectively in the next saeculum (based on what you already predicted, I'm guessing the next Heroes/Civics won't be nearly as tech obsessed as us Millennials, LOL)?

So if the Awakening starts in 2046 instead of 2047 (like you've been saying in the past), then the new Nomads arrive in 2043 instead of 2044, correct (that would make sense, S&H started Gen X in 1961, three years before the start of the Consciousness Revolution)? Also, if the 3T starts in 2066, would the new Heroes/Civics arrive in 2064 instead of 2065 (S&H gave the start date of 1982 for Millennials)?

[Eric the Green]

(06-16-2021, 12:44 PM)Captain Genet Wrote:

(06-16-2021, 08:53 AM)Ghost Wrote: You can't really take 1982-85 out of Millennials. 1982 babies are literally who the term was coined for in the first place, and people born in 1983-85 came of age even later.

The names of the generations are flawed. The year 2000, the Gregorian millennium was not that significant after all. I'd prefer to call the Civics something like Onliners.

Quote:2010 is simply too late for Millennials to end. They were born after the 2008 Financial Crisis, and there's a high likelihood they will come of age during 1T. There are a lot of people who are trying to boot me out of Millennials because I didn't vote in the Trump vs. Hillary election and was only two when 9/11 happened (I generally see this behavior coming from questionable 97-98 babies), and I believe there is even someone on here (might no longer be active) who doesn't include 1999 in Millennials.

That was a conditional sentence: IF 4T lasts till 2030 THEN people born in 2010 could be civics.

I prefer the idea that generations start a few years before a turning. So, a few years before 2008 is the start of the Gen Z adaptives, and the end of millennial civics.

[Eric the Green]

(06-16-2021, 03:16 PM)Dustinw5220 Wrote:

(06-16-2021, 03:01 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(06-16-2021, 01:51 PM)Dustinw5220 Wrote:

(06-15-2021, 02:15 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(06-15-2021, 06:29 AM)Captain Genet Wrote: If the 4T drags on till 2030, it's likely that end date for millennials will be about 2010.

Wikipedia defines generation alpha as 2010-25, this looks like preliminary dates for new artists. Millennials and Pew's Z are just two waves of civics. At least according to my idea that coming of age is more important than early childhood.

"Millennials and Pew's Z are just two waves of civics." Exactly. Gen Z arrived in circa 2003-04. Generation Alpha will start arriving soon, about 2025.

If the 4T drags on until 2030, the Alpha Generation will have arrived right on time.

The schedule is right on time. IMO no adjustment to your generation set is necessary. The saeculum is in control.

I agree with just about all of this, 2025 seems like the perfect time for the new Prophets/Idealists (or more specifically, Generation Alpha) to arrive, especially if the parallels to the Civil War are accurate. I know you sometimes criticized S&H's tendency to always start a new generation RIGHT on the cusp of a new year, frankly I also always found that somewhat suspect myself (but otherwise, I mostly agree with their dates). When would you say the new Artists/Adaptives (or the oldest members of Gen Z) officially arrived, 2003 or 2004 (and, yeah I know the date S&H gave was 2005)? Would you say 2003-2025 would be the most accurate birth years for the new Artists/Adaptives?

Also (based on the years you gave for the turnings in the next saeculum), when will the new Nomads/Reactives, Heroes/Civics, and Artists/Civics arrive (not Gen Z, but the ones after that), and if the (current) new Artists/Adaptives are Gen Z and the new Prophets/Idealists are Generation Alpha, what might those generations be called?

Those are good questions, to be answered by future generations. Myself I would say 2003 is the start date for Gen Z, but I think Mr. Howe says 2004. The next generations after Alpha, which will be starting in 2025, should follow the pattern of starting about 3-5 years before the next turning. In my 1997 book I postulated that after Gen X, generations would be called by their letters, so if that holds, as it has so far at least partially, then if the next Awakening starts in 2047, then the next nomad Generation, Gen Beta or Gen B, should start around 2044. Since dominant generations start within a year or two of when Neptune enters a cardinal sign, then the next civic generation, Generation C for civic, should start around 2065, when Neptune enters Cancer (that's another C too). The next 3T will probably start closely after that and last until about 2090.

C for Civic, I like that!

How would you say (based on the double rhythm you described/predicted for the cycles of history) Gen Z, Gen Alpha, Gen Beta, and Gen C might be both different and similar compared to the Silent, Boomers, Gen X, and Millennials respectively in the next saeculum (based on what you already predicted, I'm guessing the next Heroes/Civics won't be nearly as tech obsessed as us Millennials, LOL)?

So if the Awakening starts in 2046 instead of 2047 (like you've been saying in the past), then the new Nomads arrive in 2043 instead of 2044, correct (that would make sense, S&H started Gen X in 1961, three years before the start of the Consciousness Revolution)? Also, if the 3T starts in 2066, would the new Heroes/Civics arrive in 2064 instead of 2065 (S&H gave the start date of 1982 for Millennials)?

There is no precise schedule for when generations and turnings start, according to S&H. It depends on events. Of course, sometimes we can look to the planetary cycles for clues about when events will occur. Not always by any means. But the fact that Uranus will oppose Pluto in about the same time during the saeculum as the previous Uranus conjunct Pluto happened, and since this planetary figure and cycle has to do with unexpected, revolutionary and awakening events, then we know the Awakening will start around 2046 or 2047. Awakening events might indeed start to unfold earlier, but these will be like the events of 1962 and 1963. Like during the now-about-to-end saeculum, this Uranus-Pluto planetary figure could again indicate events that would cut the first turning short, and accelerate the Awakening's arrival. But it can't cut it too short. There will need to be at least 18 years for a turning. So for that reason I now think the date 2047 will be the most-likely one. 

But it depends on how soon the 4T ends. Things still look pretty unsettled in 2029-2030 according to the planets, and Mr. Howe is predicting this as well. But perhaps we will decide that the 4T is over in 2028 anyway, or even 2027, since events will be rapidly moving toward a new consensus by then. If so, then a 2046 start date is quite likely for the next 2T, and a 2043 start date for the next nomads is possible too. Sometimes things are still quite unsettled and unstable during the first few years of a first turning.

The double rhythm theory, if it holds, indicates that the next series of generations in the cycle will be more "Apollonian" than "Dionysian" according to some observers. So they will be less romantic and more rational. Crisis and awakening events could be directed more outwardly toward institutional change and foreign affairs. However, this should not be pressed too far. There is always much in common between generations and turnings of the same archetype. It is much more the case that trends jump from one turning to the next turning of the same type. The repeat of the Uranus-Pluto figure accents this probability, in our case. Since the opposition is the full moon of a cycle, the next Awakening will fulfill the ideals and cultural directions of the previous one, and bring them to fuller, more-conscious, and more-constructive and lasting expression.

By the way, experience shows that planetary aspects between the outer planets, although distant, are much more indicative of major events and generations than the closer, faster-moving ones, just because they move slowly and are not over and gone so quickly.

[Eric the Green]

(06-16-2021, 08:53 AM)Ghost Wrote:

(06-16-2021, 02:50 AM)Captain Genet Wrote:

(06-15-2021, 02:09 PM)David Horn Wrote:

(06-15-2021, 06:29 AM)Captain Genet Wrote: If the 4T drags on till 2030, it's likely that end date for millennials will be about 2010.

Wikipedia defines generation alpha as 2010-25, this looks like preliminary dates for new artists. Millennials and Pew's Z are just two waves of civics. At least according to my idea that coming of age is more important than early childhood.

My grandchildren and their friends are all born in 2004 or 2005. Noe are Millennials in the archetypal sense of the term, though at least a few have Artist tendencies.  If 2008 began the 4T, then 2010 is simply to late.

People born in 2004 will be 26 in 2030. It means many of them will have worked full-time, married and become parents in the 4T. An Artist is supposed to have only childhood or adolescent experiences of the 4T, not adult ones. Though my niece was born in 2005 and my friend's kids in 2008, for now they are more artists than civics, but a prolonged 4T might remake them into cuspers.

For the same reason I doubt people born in 1982-5 are millennials.

You can't really take 1982-85 out of Millennials. 1982 babies are literally who the term was coined for in the first place, and people born in 1983-85 came of age even later.

2010 is simply too late for Millennials to end. They were born after the 2008 Financial Crisis, and there's a high likelihood they will come of age during 1T. There are a lot of people who are trying to boot me out of Millennials because I didn't vote in the Trump vs. Hillary election and was only two when 9/11 happened (I generally see this behavior coming from questionable 97-98 babies), and I believe there is even someone on here (might no longer be active) who doesn't include 1999 in Millennials.

I agree. The problem with the saeculum is that in the "modern" as opposed to "post-modern" times, events and changes happened more rapidly, and several turnings were cut off early in their length. Hitler probably accelerated the arrival of the 1T by invading Western Europe in the Battle of the Bulge and thereby wasting his army. His attack on Russia was a doomed adventure too. So the previous 4T only lasted from 1929 to 1945 or 1946. If the next 1T started in 1946, then it was cut off by the JFK assassination at the end of 1963 and other Awakening events followed that cut the first turning too short as well.

But the saeculum cannot be speeded up, despite what some people think. The Uranus cycle still rules, and lifetimes have not gotten shorter. And we are no longer in the "modern times" of progress in which events were said to go faster and faster. Neo-liberalism ended that. Progress stalled for 40 years, and nothing changed except the arrival of some fancy new gadgets and new computer programs. The modernist mood changed after the sixties too. Pollution and climate change as well as depersonalization, urban sprawl, crime/guns, riots, unnecessary wars and cultural decline made modernism less attractive. The STT was stopped, and progress ended. So the saeculum, which is all about progress, slowed down. The Awakening turning dragged on into the 1980s even though Reagan was already president and the awakening felt stale. Then in 1984 came the long 3T under neo-liberalism, and then a phony 4th turning after 2008.

So that means the generational dates last longer too on this side of the saeculum. The rhythm adjusted. Despite what Pew claims, Gen X nomads were born during a full two decades from 1961 (or 1962) until 1981, and millennials started in 1982 (and maybe the cusp extended to 1984) and lasted into the early 2000s. The Gen Zers will last until about 2025.

But the planetary cycles indicate the turnings will speed up again during the next first turning, at least, because the same cycle that speeded up the arrival of the sixties Awakening will happen again, for the only time in history during an Awakening, and at the same moment in the saeculum.

[Dustinw5220]

(06-16-2021, 07:02 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(06-16-2021, 03:16 PM)Dustinw5220 Wrote:

(06-16-2021, 03:01 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(06-16-2021, 01:51 PM)Dustinw5220 Wrote:

(06-15-2021, 02:15 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: "Millennials and Pew's Z are just two waves of civics." Exactly. Gen Z arrived in circa 2003-04. Generation Alpha will start arriving soon, about 2025.

If the 4T drags on until 2030, the Alpha Generation will have arrived right on time.

The schedule is right on time. IMO no adjustment to your generation set is necessary. The saeculum is in control.

I agree with just about all of this, 2025 seems like the perfect time for the new Prophets/Idealists (or more specifically, Generation Alpha) to arrive, especially if the parallels to the Civil War are accurate. I know you sometimes criticized S&H's tendency to always start a new generation RIGHT on the cusp of a new year, frankly I also always found that somewhat suspect myself (but otherwise, I mostly agree with their dates). When would you say the new Artists/Adaptives (or the oldest members of Gen Z) officially arrived, 2003 or 2004 (and, yeah I know the date S&H gave was 2005)? Would you say 2003-2025 would be the most accurate birth years for the new Artists/Adaptives?

Also (based on the years you gave for the turnings in the next saeculum), when will the new Nomads/Reactives, Heroes/Civics, and Artists/Civics arrive (not Gen Z, but the ones after that), and if the (current) new Artists/Adaptives are Gen Z and the new Prophets/Idealists are Generation Alpha, what might those generations be called?

Those are good questions, to be answered by future generations. Myself I would say 2003 is the start date for Gen Z, but I think Mr. Howe says 2004. The next generations after Alpha, which will be starting in 2025, should follow the pattern of starting about 3-5 years before the next turning. In my 1997 book I postulated that after Gen X, generations would be called by their letters, so if that holds, as it has so far at least partially, then if the next Awakening starts in 2047, then the next nomad Generation, Gen Beta or Gen B, should start around 2044. Since dominant generations start within a year or two of when Neptune enters a cardinal sign, then the next civic generation, Generation C for civic, should start around 2065, when Neptune enters Cancer (that's another C too). The next 3T will probably start closely after that and last until about 2090.

C for Civic, I like that!

How would you say (based on the double rhythm you described/predicted for the cycles of history) Gen Z, Gen Alpha, Gen Beta, and Gen C might be both different and similar compared to the Silent, Boomers, Gen X, and Millennials respectively in the next saeculum (based on what you already predicted, I'm guessing the next Heroes/Civics won't be nearly as tech obsessed as us Millennials, LOL)?

So if the Awakening starts in 2046 instead of 2047 (like you've been saying in the past), then the new Nomads arrive in 2043 instead of 2044, correct (that would make sense, S&H started Gen X in 1961, three years before the start of the Consciousness Revolution)? Also, if the 3T starts in 2066, would the new Heroes/Civics arrive in 2064 instead of 2065 (S&H gave the start date of 1982 for Millennials)?

There is no precise schedule for when generations and turnings start, according to S&H. It depends on events. Of course, sometimes we can look to the planetary cycles for clues about when events will occur. Not always by any means. But the fact that Uranus will oppose Pluto in about the same time during the saeculum as the previous Uranus conjunct Pluto happened, and since this planetary figure and cycle has to do with unexpected, revolutionary and awakening events, then we know the Awakening will start around 2046 or 2047. Awakening events might indeed start to unfold earlier, but these will be like the events of 1962 and 1963. Like during the now-about-to-end saeculum, this Uranus-Pluto planetary figure could again indicate events that would cut the first turning short, and accelerate the Awakening's arrival. But it can't cut it too short. There will need to be at least 18 years for a turning. So for that reason I now think the date 2047 will be the most-likely one. 

But it depends on how soon the 4T ends. Things still look pretty unsettled in 2029-2030 according to the planets, and Mr. Howe is predicting this as well. But perhaps we will decide that the 4T is over in 2028 anyway, or even 2027, since events will be rapidly moving toward a new consensus by then. If so, then a 2046 start date is quite likely for the next 2T, and a 2043 start date for the next nomads is possible too. Sometimes things are still quite unsettled and unstable during the first few years of a first turning.

The double rhythm theory, if it holds, indicates that the next series of generations in the cycle will be more "Apollonian" than "Dionysian" according to some observers. So they will be less romantic and more rational. Crisis and awakening events could be directed more outwardly toward institutional change and foreign affairs. However, this should not be pressed too far. There is always much in common between generations and turnings of the same archetype. It is much more the case that trends jump from one turning to the next turning of the same type. The repeat of the Uranus-Pluto figure accents this probability, in our case. Since the opposition is the full moon of a cycle, the next Awakening will fulfill the ideals and cultural directions of the previous one, and bring them to fuller, more-conscious, and more-constructive and lasting expression.

By the way, experience shows that planetary aspects between the outer planets, although distant, are much more indicative of major events and generations than the closer, faster-moving ones, just because they move slowly and are not over and gone so quickly.

As much as I would HATE if the 4T lasted even a year longer than we thought, I can't say I would be surprised either (especially considering how slowly progress is currently going because of the Republicans).

It would make sense for the generations (and the archetypes applying them) to be more rational in the next saeculum, especially considering how much will still be at stake (such as climate change), how might that affect the culture (and make it either better or worse)? There will still be some passion and romance in the next saeculum though, right?

Also, do you think the double rhythm will still continue to hold even after the next saeculum? Would that mean if the next series of generations in the cycle will be more "Apollonian", the ones in the saeculum after next will be more "Dionysian" again?

[David Horn]

(06-16-2021, 08:04 PM)Dustinw5220 Wrote: As much as I would HATE if the 4T lasted even a year longer than we thought, I can't say I would be surprised either (especially considering how slowly progress is currently going because of the Republicans).

It would make sense for the generations (and the archetypes applying them) to be more rational in the next saeculum, especially considering how much will still be at stake (such as climate change), how might that affect the culture (and make it either better or worse)? There will still be some passion and romance in the next saeculum though, right?

4Ts are simply exhausting. If resolution is impossible because the both sides are too powerful to overcome, then some non-solution will eventually emerge to end the struggle.

4Ts aren't guaranteed to be successful in the sense of advancing history. This may be one of those failures. If so, prepare for a contentious 2T.

[Tim Randal Walker]

In American Nations Colin Woodard suggested a scenario in which different regions reached this consensus-decentralizing the USA. This, I think, would involve loosening up the federal structure. We might see some alterations in state lines. Charter cities. Basically, giving state and local government more autonomy, so there is less at stake with Presidential/Congressional elections.

Politically, the USA would become a mosaic.

Come the 1T , we might see elder Nomads leaders calming the mood.

[Tim Randal Walker]

Think back to various threads.... I recall that various 2Ts were rated by their relative intensities; the Boom Awakening was rated as one of the more intense ones. So we can say that a more intense 2T may last up to twenty years. I don't recall, off the top of my head, the shortest length listed for a 2T. Would less intense 2Ts tend to be a few years shorter than more intense 2Ts?

Murphy's law would suggest that a particularly severe/nasty 4T could last up to 22 years. A subsequent 1T, I imagine, would be very much a peace of exhaustion, almost certainly not a "High".

[Captain Genet]

C like civic... would be interesting but they will probably known under some sort of dumb pop-cultural name. Like the names of "boomers" and "Xers" sound retarded.

[Eric the Green]

(06-16-2021, 08:04 PM)Dustinw5220 Wrote:

(06-16-2021, 07:02 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(06-16-2021, 03:16 PM)Dustinw5220 Wrote:

(06-16-2021, 03:01 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(06-16-2021, 01:51 PM)Dustinw5220 Wrote: I agree with just about all of this, 2025 seems like the perfect time for the new Prophets/Idealists (or more specifically, Generation Alpha) to arrive, especially if the parallels to the Civil War are accurate. I know you sometimes criticized S&H's tendency to always start a new generation RIGHT on the cusp of a new year, frankly I also always found that somewhat suspect myself (but otherwise, I mostly agree with their dates). When would you say the new Artists/Adaptives (or the oldest members of Gen Z) officially arrived, 2003 or 2004 (and, yeah I know the date S&H gave was 2005)? Would you say 2003-2025 would be the most accurate birth years for the new Artists/Adaptives?

Also (based on the years you gave for the turnings in the next saeculum), when will the new Nomads/Reactives, Heroes/Civics, and Artists/Civics arrive (not Gen Z, but the ones after that), and if the (current) new Artists/Adaptives are Gen Z and the new Prophets/Idealists are Generation Alpha, what might those generations be called?

Those are good questions, to be answered by future generations. Myself I would say 2003 is the start date for Gen Z, but I think Mr. Howe says 2004. The next generations after Alpha, which will be starting in 2025, should follow the pattern of starting about 3-5 years before the next turning. In my 1997 book I postulated that after Gen X, generations would be called by their letters, so if that holds, as it has so far at least partially, then if the next Awakening starts in 2047, then the next nomad Generation, Gen Beta or Gen B, should start around 2044. Since dominant generations start within a year or two of when Neptune enters a cardinal sign, then the next civic generation, Generation C for civic, should start around 2065, when Neptune enters Cancer (that's another C too). The next 3T will probably start closely after that and last until about 2090.

C for Civic, I like that!

How would you say (based on the double rhythm you described/predicted for the cycles of history) Gen Z, Gen Alpha, Gen Beta, and Gen C might be both different and similar compared to the Silent, Boomers, Gen X, and Millennials respectively in the next saeculum (based on what you already predicted, I'm guessing the next Heroes/Civics won't be nearly as tech obsessed as us Millennials, LOL)?

So if the Awakening starts in 2046 instead of 2047 (like you've been saying in the past), then the new Nomads arrive in 2043 instead of 2044, correct (that would make sense, S&H started Gen X in 1961, three years before the start of the Consciousness Revolution)? Also, if the 3T starts in 2066, would the new Heroes/Civics arrive in 2064 instead of 2065 (S&H gave the start date of 1982 for Millennials)?

There is no precise schedule for when generations and turnings start, according to S&H. It depends on events. Of course, sometimes we can look to the planetary cycles for clues about when events will occur. Not always by any means. But the fact that Uranus will oppose Pluto in about the same time during the saeculum as the previous Uranus conjunct Pluto happened, and since this planetary figure and cycle has to do with unexpected, revolutionary and awakening events, then we know the Awakening will start around 2046 or 2047. Awakening events might indeed start to unfold earlier, but these will be like the events of 1962 and 1963. Like during the now-about-to-end saeculum, this Uranus-Pluto planetary figure could again indicate events that would cut the first turning short, and accelerate the Awakening's arrival. But it can't cut it too short. There will need to be at least 18 years for a turning. So for that reason I now think the date 2047 will be the most-likely one. 

But it depends on how soon the 4T ends. Things still look pretty unsettled in 2029-2030 according to the planets, and Mr. Howe is predicting this as well. But perhaps we will decide that the 4T is over in 2028 anyway, or even 2027, since events will be rapidly moving toward a new consensus by then. If so, then a 2046 start date is quite likely for the next 2T, and a 2043 start date for the next nomads is possible too. Sometimes things are still quite unsettled and unstable during the first few years of a first turning.

The double rhythm theory, if it holds, indicates that the next series of generations in the cycle will be more "Apollonian" than "Dionysian" according to some observers. So they will be less romantic and more rational. Crisis and awakening events could be directed more outwardly toward institutional change and foreign affairs. However, this should not be pressed too far. There is always much in common between generations and turnings of the same archetype. It is much more the case that trends jump from one turning to the next turning of the same type. The repeat of the Uranus-Pluto figure accents this probability, in our case. Since the opposition is the full moon of a cycle, the next Awakening will fulfill the ideals and cultural directions of the previous one, and bring them to fuller, more-conscious, and more-constructive and lasting expression.

By the way, experience shows that planetary aspects between the outer planets, although distant, are much more indicative of major events and generations than the closer, faster-moving ones, just because they move slowly and are not over and gone so quickly.

As much as I would HATE if the 4T lasted even a year longer than we thought, I can't say I would be surprised either (especially considering how slowly progress is currently going because of the Republicans).

It would make sense for the generations (and the archetypes applying them) to be more rational in the next saeculum, especially considering how much will still be at stake (such as climate change), how might that affect the culture (and make it either better or worse)? There will still be some passion and romance in the next saeculum though, right?

Also, do you think the double rhythm will still continue to hold even after the next saeculum? Would that mean if the next series of generations in the cycle will be more "Apollonian", the ones in the saeculum after next will be more "Dionysian" again?

Probably. But given the nature of the 22nd century as a time of expanding horizons, world organization and even crusades, maybe an anglo-american Dionysian saeculum that focuses more internally might not fit. So the rhythm might shift or become less clear in the future. Also, from my astrology point of view, the USA might not exist after this current 4T, so the chart of the new nation(s) might be different, thus influencing the rhythm and my basis for conceiving the double rhythm and its nature. I know most people here don't believe astrology works, and neither did Mr. Strauss, but sometimes I post about it here anyway since it shows interesting patterns for those open to considering them.