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02-02-2017, 12:40 PM
(This post was last modified: 02-02-2017, 06:19 PM by SomeGuy.)
(02-02-2017, 07:51 AM)Odin Wrote: Quote:Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. — In this formulation, I do not imply, for instance, that we should always suppress the utterance of intolerant philosophies; as long as we can counter them by rational argument and keep them in check by public opinion, suppression would certainly be unwise. But we should claim the right to suppress them if necessary even by force; for it may easily turn out that they are not prepared to meet us on the level of rational argument, but begin by denouncing all argument; they may forbid their followers to listen to rational argument, because it is deceptive, and teach them to answer arguments by the use of their fists or pistols. We should therefore claim, in the name of tolerance, the right not to tolerate the intolerant. We should claim that any movement preaching intolerance places itself outside the law, and we should consider incitement to intolerance and persecution as criminal, in the same way as we should consider incitement to murder, or to kidnapping, or to the revival of the slave trade, as criminal.
-Karl Popper, The Open Society And Its Enemies
And before the usual suspects begin denouncing Popper, you should know that he is famous for his defense of Liberal Democracy against both Fascism and Marxism, and he was a close friend of Hayek. Popper wrote these lines at the height of WW2, when many of his fellow Jews were being exterminated in the concentration camps.
Milo Yianopoulos has no interest in reasonable discussion, he's a professional troll, like Ann Coulter, and like Coulter he likely doesn't even believe the BS he spews. His sole interest is in being as provocative as possible in order to incite protest so he can whine about "violent leftists" oppressing him, and thus help further radicalize his Fascist fuck followers. Giving him a platform for his bullshit just encourages his bullshit. He has no place on a college campus, whose purpose is for reasonable discussion.
And of course "Libertarians" like Galen show their true colors by cozying up to Fascism.
Emphasis mine.
I must have missed the brownshirts those antifas were bravely fighting against. Perhaps they were holed up in the Starbucks? 
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I'm gonna vote yes, and yes.
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02-02-2017, 02:16 PM
(This post was last modified: 02-02-2017, 03:02 PM by Bob Butler 54.)
(02-02-2017, 01:58 PM)X_4AD_84 Wrote: (02-02-2017, 02:59 AM)Galen Wrote: Here is what the left devolved into. Perhaps it is appropriate and ironic that free speech should be opposed so violently in the place where the Free Speech movement got started. Here is how one person planning to attend Milo's speech was treated.
(Snip)
I also suggest that you listen to what Molyneux has to say.
(Snip)
This all looks like brown-shirt behavior from the thirties. Makes me wonder who the real fascists are?
We all need to be intellectually honest.
Are Black Bloc of "the Left?"
For that matter, are the so called "Alt-Right" of the Right?
Are the extreme partisans of the right on the right, and on the left of the left? I would say yes.
Can one attribute and associate all of the beliefs of the far extremes to everyone on their side? Absolutely not. I didn't start any fires at Berkeley. I know of no contributors here spouting the same sort of rhetoric as Yiannopoulos. There are variations and intensities of belief on both the left and right. The notion of all folk on one side or the other as being alike and embracing the extreme extreme is absurd.
That this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom, and that government of the people, by the people, for the people shall not perish from the earth.
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Quote:Regarding Black Bloc or more properly, instigators who appear to be Black Bloc, I offer the following:
'A Spetsnaz officer out to recruit agents for direct terrorist action has a wonderful base for his work in the West. There are a tremendous number of people who are discontented and ready to protest against absolutely anything. And while millions protest peacefully, some individuals will resort to any means to make their protest. The Spetsnaz officer has only to find the malcontent who is ready to go to extremes.' - Spetsnaz, Viktor Suvorov.
This is not to say that these particular Black Bloc or supposed Black Bloc folks were recruited thus. That said, we know that having Trump put in place, and naturally, the resultant reaction to him, were and are goals of the FSB, SVR and GRU.
Is there anything you don't blame on the Russians? 
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(02-02-2017, 02:51 PM)X_4AD_84 Wrote: (02-02-2017, 02:32 PM)SomeGuy Wrote: Quote:Regarding Black Bloc or more properly, instigators who appear to be Black Bloc, I offer the following:
'A Spetsnaz officer out to recruit agents for direct terrorist action has a wonderful base for his work in the West. There are a tremendous number of people who are discontented and ready to protest against absolutely anything. And while millions protest peacefully, some individuals will resort to any means to make their protest. The Spetsnaz officer has only to find the malcontent who is ready to go to extremes.' - Spetsnaz, Viktor Suvorov.
This is not to say that these particular Black Bloc or supposed Black Bloc folks were recruited thus. That said, we know that having Trump put in place, and naturally, the resultant reaction to him, were and are goals of the FSB, SVR and GRU.
Is there anything you don't blame on the Russians?
Why do you react to my posts on that have something to do with the Russians?
Maybe I'm a Russian agent, sent to keep you from mobilizing the resistance? 
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(02-02-2017, 11:41 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: (02-02-2017, 11:08 AM)SomeGuy Wrote: Speech, riot, they're basically the same thing, right? Both sides equally at fault?
No. Last page I compared the incident to OKC and the Black / Blue Lives Matter spirals of violence. I take the changes in scale and style of spirals of violence seriously. Yiannopoulos is all talk. He wasn't on my radar at all. I was vaguely aware that folks like that are big in the Alt Right, but don't follow that sort of thing in detail.
The difference between rhetoric and violence is a big deal for me. If you're reading my stuff at all, you should know I feel that way.
At the same time the Nihilist Moron is right too. You don't give attention whores and trolls the attention they crave. That can be applied both ways.
There's more than one angle to look at this stuff from. I'm seeing a lot of 'we are saints while the other guys are sinners' partisan (expletive deleted). There's enough of that. Too much. If I try to go to a little more depth, it seems the extreme partisans want to bring it back to pure partisanship. Not surprising, but not interesting to me.
I assume that you are aware that rhetoric can easily turn into violence. I assume that you are aware that rhetoric can also be used to insight violence. Do blues (the Democrats in general) have the ability to boldly confront/staunchly turn against the improper use of rhetoric that's viewed as being politically associated with them, so to speak. At what point does the Democratic party stop being viewed by Americans as being a party of vote whores/ white hate merchants and stop using our federal funds as a means to pacify dangerous/radical groups within their social ranks?
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Quote:I just love chipping away the stereotypes which people try to build up between each other!
Destroying everything they have worked so hard to build. Cruel, cruel woman. You Millies really have no respect for other's property, do you?
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(02-02-2017, 03:01 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: I assume that you are aware that rhetoric can easily turn into violence.
Oh, yes.
(02-02-2017, 03:01 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: I assume that you are aware that rhetoric can also be used to insight violence.
Oh, yes. Recently demonstrated.
(02-02-2017, 03:01 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Do blues (the Democrats in general) have the ability to boldly confront/staunchly turn against the improper use of rhetoric that's viewed as being politically associated with them, so to speak.
The ability, yes. Some of them even do it. For example, Berkeley apparently was the origin place of a free speech movement. Some of the Berkeley people were particularly upset at the recent incident, denouncing the flame throwers quite clearly and vehemently. Not that everyone noticed. The flame throwers got more attention.
(02-02-2017, 03:01 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: At what point does the Democratic party stop being viewed by Americans as being a party of vote whores/ white hate merchants and stop using our federal funds as a means to pacify dangerous/radical groups within their social ranks?
Do you have any evidence that the Black Crew is federally funded? At least, this seems to be what you are suggesting. If so, I would expect Trump to issue an executive order telling them to stop.
I don't see Americans viewing the Democrats that way. I see certain red leaning extreme partisans obsessed with vile stereotypes viewing Democrats that way. I've been trying to get extreme partisans to drop their vile stereotypes, to stop casually confusing their vile stereotypes with Truth, with little to no effect. Extreme partisans are extreme partisans, and will wallow in their own hate and lies. Not much I can do about such irrational hatred.
And, yes, that sort of thing can lead to violence.
That this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom, and that government of the people, by the people, for the people shall not perish from the earth.
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(02-02-2017, 03:14 PM)taramarie Wrote: Exactly. You take every single person who is a blue voter or red voter and shove them into a box it is not going to fit. You also in the process are:
1. ignoring the differences AKA reality.
2. spreading misinformation based on smear judgement
and
3. spreading hatred based on misinformation.
I generally agree with the above.
The point one shouldn't miss is that an awful lot of the extreme partisans - red, blue, and any other color you might care to name - actually believe the stuff they spout. They believe it with values locked intensity. As questioning the vile stereotypes would require them to question many of their core values, their vile stereotypes will stand as if set in stone. The vile stereotypes might be understood in part as a defense mechanism that prevents them from having to look at reality with open eyes.
That this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom, and that government of the people, by the people, for the people shall not perish from the earth.
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(02-02-2017, 03:39 PM)nihilist moron Wrote: The Left will need to work a lot harder if they don't want to be associated with firestarters, walking vaginas, and Madonna.
You repeat yourself. 
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(02-02-2017, 12:40 PM)SomeGuy Wrote: I must have missed the brownshirt those antifas were bravely fighting against. Perhaps they were holed up in the Starbucks?
Maybe they were hiding in the ATMs they smashed. 
Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard. -- H.L. Mencken
If one rejects laissez faire on account of man's fallibility and moral weakness, one must for the same reason also reject every kind of government action. -- Ludwig von Mises
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(02-02-2017, 03:18 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: (02-02-2017, 03:01 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: I assume that you are aware that rhetoric can easily turn into violence.
Oh, yes.
(02-02-2017, 03:01 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: I assume that you are aware that rhetoric can also be used to insight violence.
Oh, yes. Recently demonstrated.
(02-02-2017, 03:01 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Do blues (the Democrats in general) have the ability to boldly confront/staunchly turn against the improper use of rhetoric that's viewed as being politically associated with them, so to speak.
The ability, yes. Some of them even do it. For example, Berkeley apparently was the origin place of a free speech movement. Some of the Berkeley people were particularly upset at the recent incident, denouncing the flame throwers quite clearly and vehemently. Not that everyone noticed. The flame throwers got more attention.
(02-02-2017, 03:01 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: At what point does the Democratic party stop being viewed by Americans as being a party of vote whores/ white hate merchants and stop using our federal funds as a means to pacify dangerous/radical groups within their social ranks?
Do you have any evidence that the Black Crew is federally funded? At least, this seems to be what you are suggesting. If so, I would expect Trump to issue an executive order telling them to stop.
I don't see Americans viewing the Democrats that way. I see certain red leaning extreme partisans obsessed with vile stereotypes viewing Democrats that way. I've been trying to get extreme partisans to drop their vile stereotypes, to stop casually confusing their vile stereotypes with Truth, with little to no effect. Extreme partisans are extreme partisans, and will wallow in their own hate and lies. Not much I can do about such irrational hatred.
And, yes, that sort of thing can lead to violence.
I view the Democrats that way because that's how they come across to me and their politics come across to me. In my case, the Democrats have earned whatever vile stereotype that I've placed on them. You haven't figured this out yet. You haven't figured that you've been directly engaging with a hard core American for years. An American who has been judging you, your opinions, your actions or lack of actions, your social tolerances and the fundamental strengths of your values and beliefs as a so-called blue voter. An American who doesn't doesn't give a crap about your race, your gender, your ethnic heritage or whatever the Democrats view as being most valuable to themselves vote wise/blue community wise at election time.
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Strange, the local news called the ones who broke windows and set fire to a light generator or whatever it was, "black rock." But the definition of Black Bloc appears to indicate that it's a tactic or a costume, not a group.
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(02-02-2017, 04:04 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: (02-02-2017, 03:18 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: (02-02-2017, 03:01 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: I assume that you are aware that rhetoric can easily turn into violence.
Oh, yes.
(02-02-2017, 03:01 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: I assume that you are aware that rhetoric can also be used to insight violence.
Oh, yes. Recently demonstrated.
(02-02-2017, 03:01 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Do blues (the Democrats in general) have the ability to boldly confront/staunchly turn against the improper use of rhetoric that's viewed as being politically associated with them, so to speak.
The ability, yes. Some of them even do it. For example, Berkeley apparently was the origin place of a free speech movement. Some of the Berkeley people were particularly upset at the recent incident, denouncing the flame throwers quite clearly and vehemently. Not that everyone noticed. The flame throwers got more attention.
(02-02-2017, 03:01 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: At what point does the Democratic party stop being viewed by Americans as being a party of vote whores/ white hate merchants and stop using our federal funds as a means to pacify dangerous/radical groups within their social ranks?
Do you have any evidence that the Black Crew is federally funded? At least, this seems to be what you are suggesting. If so, I would expect Trump to issue an executive order telling them to stop.
I don't see Americans viewing the Democrats that way. I see certain red leaning extreme partisans obsessed with vile stereotypes viewing Democrats that way. I've been trying to get extreme partisans to drop their vile stereotypes, to stop casually confusing their vile stereotypes with Truth, with little to no effect. Extreme partisans are extreme partisans, and will wallow in their own hate and lies. Not much I can do about such irrational hatred.
And, yes, that sort of thing can lead to violence.
I view the Democrats that way because that's how they come across to me and their politics come across to me. In my case, the Democrats have earned whatever vile stereotype that I've placed on them. You haven't figured this out yet. You haven't figured that you've been directly engaging with a hard core American for years. An American who has been judging you, your opinions, your actions or lack of actions, your social tolerances and the fundamental strengths of your values and beliefs as a so-called blue voter. An American who doesn't doesn't give a crap about your race, your gender, your ethnic heritage or whatever the Democrats view as being most valuable to themselves vote wise/blue community wise at election time.
I as a liberal and sometime Democratic voter (and I suspect most like me) would not agree that your ideas and values are "American," and ours are not. What for you is a "hard core American?" Do such Americans have a certain racial or religious heritage? What do they believe to be American, as opposed to what "blue voters" believe to be American?
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(02-02-2017, 05:26 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: Look how quiet America was when Barack Obama was President. The Tea Party Movement took much longer to develop than has the mass rallies that oppose "The Donald". There are plenty of issues to protest about when an unjust ruler insists that he is the supposed arbiter of truth for all time. Il Duce ha sempre raggione... Der Fuehrer hat immer rechts....
The Tea Party movement's first big demonstration - much bigger than this one - was in April 2009. That was longer, yes, but only because Obama was more circumspect about his real agenda.
I grant that the Tea Party protests never got violent. That's just because conservatives prefer not to resort to violence, and prefer to use the ballot box instead.
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(02-02-2017, 04:49 PM)X_4AD_84 Wrote: (02-02-2017, 03:00 PM)SomeGuy Wrote: (02-02-2017, 02:51 PM)X_4AD_84 Wrote: (02-02-2017, 02:32 PM)SomeGuy Wrote: Quote:Regarding Black Bloc or more properly, instigators who appear to be Black Bloc, I offer the following:
'A Spetsnaz officer out to recruit agents for direct terrorist action has a wonderful base for his work in the West. There are a tremendous number of people who are discontented and ready to protest against absolutely anything. And while millions protest peacefully, some individuals will resort to any means to make their protest. The Spetsnaz officer has only to find the malcontent who is ready to go to extremes.' - Spetsnaz, Viktor Suvorov.
This is not to say that these particular Black Bloc or supposed Black Bloc folks were recruited thus. That said, we know that having Trump put in place, and naturally, the resultant reaction to him, were and are goals of the FSB, SVR and GRU.
Is there anything you don't blame on the Russians?
Why do you react to my posts on that have something to do with the Russians?
Maybe I'm a Russian agent, sent to keep you from mobilizing the resistance?
Don't know about that but you're a bit reactive or reactionary regarding such topics.
Funny, I was going to say the same thing about you. Come to think of it, I just did.
You've already talked about being fixated on the "Russian threat" since at least 1999. So it's not really something I would characterize as being driven by current events.
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02-02-2017, 05:01 PM
(This post was last modified: 02-02-2017, 05:04 PM by Eric the Green.)
(02-02-2017, 04:34 PM)Warren Dew Wrote: (02-02-2017, 05:26 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: Look how quiet America was when Barack Obama was President. The Tea Party Movement took much longer to develop than has the mass rallies that oppose "The Donald". There are plenty of issues to protest about when an unjust ruler insists that he is the supposed arbiter of truth for all time. Il Duce ha sempre raggione... Der Fuehrer hat immer rechts....
The Tea Party movement's first big demonstration - much bigger than this one - was in April 2009. That was longer, yes, but only because Obama was more circumspect about his real agenda.
I grant that the Tea Party protests never got violent. That's just because conservatives prefer not to resort to violence, and prefer to use the ballot box instead.
There were threats of violence at least at Tea Party events. But it does appear that the fringe violent element on the Left shows up more often in leftist demonstrations than the right fringe elements show up in rallies of the Tea Party. They also showed up in 1999 at the mostly-peaceful anti-WTO rallies (The Battle in Seattle). Left demonstrators (like those at Occupy a few years ago) also tend to be more disillusioned with the ballot box these days, even though they are mostly non-violent. After all, the right-wing is more effective at rigging elections these days. But you also have the right-wing militias, ready for action and threatening it in some cases. Right-wing terrorist attacks, such as in Oklahoma City in 1995, can be very deadly.
The "women's march" was one of the biggest ever; vastly larger than any Tea Party rally, and no arrests made at them. And those rallies at airports were spectacular awakenings of true Americanism in the face of Trump's brash violations of everything the USA stands for.
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02-02-2017, 05:10 PM
(This post was last modified: 02-02-2017, 05:13 PM by Ragnarök_62.)
(02-02-2017, 03:39 PM)nihilist moron Wrote: The Left will need to work a lot harder if they don't want to be associated with firestarters, walking vaginas, and Madonna.
Dunno. Perhaps an investigation will link Soros to these Black Bloc punks . If so....
#CivilAssetForfeitrureSoros : Lots of dough to compensate the victims of his shit stirring and overtime pay for the cops.
#ShutSorosDown
There's no violence in doing that, right?
---Value Added
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(02-02-2017, 05:10 PM)Ragnarök_62 Wrote: (02-02-2017, 03:39 PM)nihilist moron Wrote: The Left will need to work a lot harder if they don't want to be associated with firestarters, walking vaginas, and Madonna.
Dunno. Perhaps an investigation will link Soros to this shit. If so....
#CivilAssetForfeitrureSoros : Lots of dough to compensate the victims of his shit stirring and overtime pay for the cops.
#ShutSorosDown
There's no violence in doing that, right?
What is he, 86? Shouldn't have too much longer.
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(02-02-2017, 04:36 AM)taramarie Wrote: "Except, both sides don't. Only one side regularly attacks people from the other side, or resorts to burning things down."
Ah I would have to disagree with you there. I have heard and seen too much to believe that. I may be a foreigner but I am not blind nor deaf.
Both sides participate in the viciousness. But not every single individual does.
Citations please.
---Value Added
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