The Maelstrom of Violence

[David Horn]

(01-23-2021, 02:31 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: The COVID-19 pandemic is 'unnatural' in that such a pandemic supposedly does not fester in an advanced industrial society with a sophisticated political system -- until it does...

I don't agree. What made COVID so devastating in both the UK and the US was the unwillingness or incapability of the citizenry to comply with health restrictions, coupled with faux-frugality that meant it was impossible for most people (read: not well educated and/or well-to-do) to follow the strict rules.  Sorry, but both are features not bugs.

[Classic-Xer]

(01-23-2021, 04:42 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(01-22-2021, 11:51 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: I think its pretty clear that wearing masks, avoiding crowds, social distancing and washing hands didn't prevent the death of over 400,000 Americans.

It is pretty clear that not wearing masks, avoiding crowds, social distancing and washing hands caused many of those deaths.

We had several months of large scale protesting and violent protesting that I'm sure caused/contributed to the death of thousands of people.

[Classic-Xer]

(01-24-2021, 10:59 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(01-23-2021, 02:31 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: The COVID-19 pandemic is 'unnatural' in that such a pandemic supposedly does not fester in an advanced industrial society with a sophisticated political system -- until it does...

I don't agree. What made COVID so devastating in both the UK and the US was the unwillingness or incapability of the citizenry to comply with health restrictions, coupled with faux-frugality that meant it was impossible for most people (read: not well educated and/or well-to-do) to follow the strict rules.  Sorry, but both are features not bugs.

We're in the middle of a global pandemic and if you think wearing a flimsy mask is going to prevent you or a loved one from getting it or bringing it home then you're being foolish. I don't know anyone who didn't get it while wearing a mask in public. No, you and the grand puba have to figure out a way to shut down America without causing all kinds of problems like the Chinese regime can do today. We have a pesky little bug that can make people who wear masks just as sick as the ones who aren't wearing masks.

[Classic-Xer]

(01-23-2021, 11:29 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(01-23-2021, 11:21 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: Like war, COVID-19 is unnatural.

Nitpick.  War has been part of human interaction throughout the ages.  It is, unfortunately, part of our natural behavior.  It was cost effective, at least for the winners, though the late Industrial Age.  Even then we are only slowly learning to avoid it.

I would add that pandemics are natural too.  They have happened throughout history.

The new normal of the Information Age should not make us forget what came before.  Abolishing war and plagues is a work in progress.

But I agree with most of the post.

Actually, the COVID bug wasn't a product of nature as you say. COVID19 was most likely manufactured by a group humans (scientists) working in a Chinese laboratory in Wuhan, China. You should start watching FOX more, you might learn something completely different that blue media isn't telling you these days.

[pbrower2a]

(01-24-2021, 11:43 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(01-23-2021, 11:29 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(01-23-2021, 11:21 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: Like war, COVID-19 is unnatural.

Nitpick.  War has been part of human interaction throughout the ages.  It is, unfortunately, part of our natural behavior.  It was cost effective, at least for the winners, though the late Industrial Age.  Even then we are only slowly learning to avoid it.

I would add that pandemics are natural too.  They have happened throughout history.

The new normal of the Information Age should not make us forget what came before.  Abolishing war and plagues is a work in progress.

But I agree with most of the post.

Actually, the COVID bug wasn't a product of nature as you say. COVID19 was most likely manufactured by a group humans (scientists) working in a Chinese laboratory in Wuhan, China. You should start watching FOX more, you might learn something completely different that blue media isn't telling you these days.

No. Just no. Mad scientists may be commonplace grist for horror tales from Frankenstein to Metropolis to ... well, it is a fertile plot line. Mad scientists are rare, except among perverted medical experimenters such as those who did dehumanizing experiments upon helpless 'test patients' in Nazi concentration camps under the encouragement of high-level political figures such as Hermann Goering. 

The conventional story comes from someone butchering a bat. Bats do not have good immune systems, but they can segregate bacteria and viruses best kept in them.  China watches laboratories that have anything dangerous -- radiation, germs, highly-toxic substances -- carefully. Misconduct with something deadly is likely to get one sentenced to death and executed. 

Chinese regulation of  'wet markets' is weak, and one can supposedly get any meat that you want except for human flesh there. Yes, that includes dog meat, which offends many Americans very sentimental about their pooches. But dog meat is relatively safe if it isn't full of medication. Bat meat is terribly unsafe to process. 

FoX News is not reliable on anything political... I trust Chinese Central Television far more on international news (but not about China, of course!) than I trust highly-politicized FoX Propaganda Channel.

[David Horn]

(01-24-2021, 11:43 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(01-23-2021, 11:29 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(01-23-2021, 11:21 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: Like war, COVID-19 is unnatural.

Nitpick.  War has been part of human interaction throughout the ages.  It is, unfortunately, part of our natural behavior.  It was cost effective, at least for the winners, though the late Industrial Age.  Even then we are only slowly learning to avoid it.

I would add that pandemics are natural too.  They have happened throughout history.

The new normal of the Information Age should not make us forget what came before.  Abolishing war and plagues is a work in progress.

But I agree with most of the post.

Actually, the COVID bug wasn't a product of nature as you say. COVID19 was most likely manufactured by a group humans (scientists) working in a Chinese laboratory in Wuhan, China. You should start watching FOX more, you might learn something completely different that blue media isn't telling you these days.

The world's leading authorities on infectious diseases determined that COVID19 may be a novel virus, it's not a manufactured one.  What authority does FOX call on for it's baseless claim?

[David Horn]

(01-24-2021, 11:33 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(01-24-2021, 10:59 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(01-23-2021, 02:31 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: The COVID-19 pandemic is 'unnatural' in that such a pandemic supposedly does not fester in an advanced industrial society with a sophisticated political system -- until it does...

I don't agree. What made COVID so devastating in both the UK and the US was the unwillingness or incapability of the citizenry to comply with health restrictions, coupled with faux-frugality that meant it was impossible for most people (read: not well educated and/or well-to-do) to follow the strict rules.  Sorry, but both are features not bugs.

We're in the middle of a global pandemic and if you think wearing a flimsy mask is going to prevent you or a loved one from getting it or bringing it home then you're being foolish. I don't know anyone who didn't get it while wearing a mask in public. No, you and the grand puba have to figure out a way to shut down America without causing all kinds of problems like the Chinese regime can do today. We have a pesky little bug that can make people who wear masks just as sick as the ones who aren't wearing masks.

If you run your HVAC without a filter, what happens?  The same applies to humans.  It's not perfect; it's vastly better than the alternative.  Note: the degree of COVID illness is based on the quantity of the exposure, so cutting the amount of virus down by 2/3 or 3/4 is significant.

[Classic-Xer]

(01-25-2021, 01:02 PM)David Horn Wrote:

(01-24-2021, 11:43 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(01-23-2021, 11:29 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(01-23-2021, 11:21 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: Like war, COVID-19 is unnatural.

Nitpick.  War has been part of human interaction throughout the ages.  It is, unfortunately, part of our natural behavior.  It was cost effective, at least for the winners, though the late Industrial Age.  Even then we are only slowly learning to avoid it.

I would add that pandemics are natural too.  They have happened throughout history.

The new normal of the Information Age should not make us forget what came before.  Abolishing war and plagues is a work in progress.

But I agree with most of the post.

Actually, the COVID bug wasn't a product of nature as you say. COVID19 was most likely manufactured by a group humans (scientists) working in a Chinese laboratory in Wuhan, China. You should start watching FOX more, you might learn something completely different that blue media isn't telling you these days.

The world's leading authorities on infectious diseases determined that COVID19 may be a novel virus, it's not a manufactured one.  What authority does FOX call on for it's baseless claim?

The chance of a bat from this part of the world and a bat from that part of the world coming in contact with each other then coming in contact with another animal of some sort (undetermined by science at the moment) before coming into contact with a human and then spreading world wide is what? One in a billion chance? There's a group of scientists who know that the virus was made by man in a laboratory in Wuhan, China. So, where did you get your information? China or a group of leading authorities who are in business with China?

[David Horn]

(01-25-2021, 02:42 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(01-25-2021, 01:02 PM)David Horn Wrote:

(01-24-2021, 11:43 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Actually, the COVID bug wasn't a product of nature as you say. COVID19 was most likely manufactured by a group humans (scientists) working in a Chinese laboratory in Wuhan, China. You should start watching FOX more, you might learn something completely different that blue media isn't telling you these days.

The world's leading authorities on infectious diseases determined that COVID19 may be a novel virus, it's not a manufactured one.  What authority does FOX call on for it's baseless claim?

The chance of a bat from this part of the world and a bat from that part of the world coming in contact with each other then coming in contact with another animal of some sort (undetermined by science at the moment) before coming into contact with a human and then spreading world wide is what? One in a billion chance? There's a group of scientists who know that the virus was made by man in a laboratory in Wuhan, China. So, where did you get your information? China or a group of leading authorities who are in business with China?

The leading theory has the spread originating in a natural food market (think of this as a wild game meat market).  The originating bat may have defecated on food the game later ate, or bitten it.  The actual "how" is unknowable.  What seems cut-and-dry is the type of virus matches bat viruses, and no indication of artificial interference (think crispr-cas9) could be identified, which would be detectable by the pros involved in the investigation. Patient Zero probably ate the infected game, or was the person who processed it for sale. Again, that info would be known to the investigating team.

[pbrower2a]

(01-24-2021, 11:33 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(01-24-2021, 10:59 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(01-23-2021, 02:31 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: The COVID-19 pandemic is 'unnatural' in that such a pandemic supposedly does not fester in an advanced industrial society with a sophisticated political system -- until it does...

I don't agree. What made COVID so devastating in both the UK and the US was the unwillingness or incapability of the citizenry to comply with health restrictions, coupled with faux-frugality that meant it was impossible for most people (read: not well educated and/or well-to-do) to follow the strict rules.  Sorry, but
both are features not bugs.

We're in the middle of a global pandemic and if you think wearing a flimsy mask is going to prevent you or a loved one from getting it or bringing it home then you're being foolish. I don't know anyone who didn't get it while wearing a mask in public. No, you and the grand puba have to figure out a way to shut down America without causing all kinds of problems like the Chinese regime can do today. We have a pesky little bug that can make people who wear masks just as sick as the ones who aren't wearing masks.

... and you are going to trust your life as a passenger in a car to a seat belt? A seat-belt might not prevent death or serious injury, but it can reduce the chance of either. See also a condom in the AIDS epidemic. That mask makes going out in public less likely to result in contracting the virus and should you have the virus and not know it, less likely to transmit it. 

Until a certain level of the public gets inoculated for COVID-19 (I'm guessing 90%) we will still need to mask ourselves... even if we were inoculated, just to be certain.

[Classic-Xer]

(01-25-2021, 04:56 PM)pbrower2a Wrote:

(01-24-2021, 11:33 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(01-24-2021, 10:59 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(01-23-2021, 02:31 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: The COVID-19 pandemic is 'unnatural' in that such a pandemic supposedly does not fester in an advanced industrial society with a sophisticated political system -- until it does...

I don't agree. What made COVID so devastating in both the UK and the US was the unwillingness or incapability of the citizenry to comply with health restrictions, coupled with faux-frugality that meant it was impossible for most people (read: not well educated and/or well-to-do) to follow the strict rules.  Sorry, but
both are features not bugs.

We're in the middle of a global pandemic and if you think wearing a flimsy mask is going to prevent you or a loved one from getting it or bringing it home then you're being foolish. I don't know anyone who didn't get it while wearing a mask in public. No, you and the grand puba have to figure out a way to shut down America without causing all kinds of problems like the Chinese regime can do today. We have a pesky little bug that can make people who wear masks just as sick as the ones who aren't wearing masks.

... and you are going to trust your life as a passenger in a car to a seat belt? A seat-belt might not prevent death or serious injury, but it can reduce the chance of either. See also a condom in the AIDS epidemic. That mask makes going out in public less likely to result in contracting the virus and should you have the virus and not know it, less likely to transmit it. 

Until a certain level of the public gets inoculated for COVID-19 (I'm guessing 90%) we will still need to mask ourselves... even if we were inoculated, just to be certain.

So, how long will it take to inoculate 300 million people twice during the middle of a global pandemic?

[Bob Butler 54]

(01-25-2021, 06:39 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: So, how long will it take to inoculate 300 million people twice during the middle of a global pandemic?

Last guess I heard was that they would be down to young people without an essential worker privilege by early this summer.

[Classic-Xer]

(01-25-2021, 03:21 PM)David Horn Wrote:

(01-25-2021, 02:42 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(01-25-2021, 01:02 PM)David Horn Wrote:

(01-24-2021, 11:43 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Actually, the COVID bug wasn't a product of nature as you say. COVID19 was most likely manufactured by a group humans (scientists) working in a Chinese laboratory in Wuhan, China. You should start watching FOX more, you might learn something completely different that blue media isn't telling you these days.

The world's leading authorities on infectious diseases determined that COVID19 may be a novel virus, it's not a manufactured one.  What authority does FOX call on for it's baseless claim?

The chance of a bat from this part of the world and a bat from that part of the world coming in contact with each other then coming in contact with another animal of some sort (undetermined by science at the moment) before coming into contact with a human and then spreading world wide is what? One in a billion chance? There's a group of scientists who know that the virus was made by man in a laboratory in Wuhan, China. So, where did you get your information? China or a group of leading authorities who are in business with China?

The leading theory has the spread originating in a natural food market (think of this as a wild game meat market).  The originating bat may have defecated on food the game later ate, or bitten it.  The actual "how" is unknowable.  What seems cut-and-dry is the type of virus matches bat viruses, and no indication of artificial interference (think crispr-cas9) could be identified, which would be detectable by the pros involved in the investigation. Patient Zero probably ate the infected game, or was the person who processed it for sale.  Again, that info would be known to the investigating team.

Where are you getting your outdated information or haven't you took the time to update information yet? Are you still getting it directly from China? A group of government officials who are in cahoots with China? The scientists who are the ones tracing it/ investigating it already know that it was a scientific project associated with a laboratory in Wuhan, China that went awry and spread from there. The virus is a combination of two bat virus associated with two different species of bats from different regions and an infected test animal of some sort that infected a laboratory worker and possibly some coworkers who unknowingly spread it to the public from there.

[Classic-Xer]

(01-25-2021, 06:55 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(01-25-2021, 06:39 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: So, how long will it take to inoculate 300 million people twice during the middle of a global pandemic?

Last guess I heard was that they would be down to young people without an essential worker privilege by early this summer.

Who? What authority determines if one has essential worker status or not? I assume everyone has the right to earn a living and pay for whatever they need right? I know that you are on the elitist side but don't forget that not everyone is content with living off the dole and surviving off whatever morsels the government is able to provide these days.

[Bob Butler 54]

(01-25-2021, 07:41 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(01-25-2021, 06:55 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(01-25-2021, 06:39 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: So, how long will it take to inoculate 300 million people twice during the middle of a global pandemic?

Last guess I heard was that they would be down to young people without an essential worker privilege by early this summer.

Who? What authority determines if one has essential worker status or not? I assume everyone has the right to earn a living and pay for whatever they need right? I know that you are on the elitist side but don't forget that not everyone is content with living off the dole and surviving off whatever morsels the government is able to provide these days.

One of the few things Trump left the golf course on his resorts for the rich was for was a to pass a big tax break for the rich. Where did you get the idea that I was on the side of the elite? Trump said so? Isn't it a bit late to notice he's the biggest alligator in the swamp?

[David Horn]

(01-25-2021, 06:55 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(01-25-2021, 06:39 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: So, how long will it take to inoculate 300 million people twice during the middle of a global pandemic?

Last guess I heard was that they would be down to young people without an essential worker privilege by early this summer.

The long pole here is vaccine.  If J&J comes online soon (one shot, not two), and Novavax follows soon, we should be done in the US before that ... if, not when.

[David Horn]

(01-25-2021, 07:24 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(01-25-2021, 03:21 PM)David Horn Wrote: The leading theory has the spread originating in a natural food market (think of this as a wild game meat market).  The originating bat may have defecated on food the game later ate, or bitten it.  The actual "how" is unknowable.  What seems cut-and-dry is the type of virus matches bat viruses, and no indication of artificial interference (think crispr-cas9) could be identified, which would be detectable by the pros involved in the investigation. Patient Zero probably ate the infected game, or was the person who processed it for sale.  Again, that info would be known to the investigating team.

Where are you getting your outdated information or haven't you took the time to update information yet? Are you still getting it directly from China? A group of government officials who are in cahoots with China? The scientists who are the ones tracing it/ investigating it already know that it was a scientific project associated with a laboratory in Wuhan, China that went awry and spread from there. The virus is a combination of two bat virus associated with two different species of bats from different regions and an infected test animal of some sort that infected a laboratory worker and possibly some coworkers who unknowingly spread it to the public from there.

I did some more investigating, and you're more right than wrong. China, never good at being open and inviting, is hiding somethings. Was the virus manipulated? Perhaps. If so, then the Chinese military may owe the world an abject apology. If that's true, then I'll bet on sloppiness rather than bad intent. If you weaponize something, you don't let it get out of the lab.

[pbrower2a]

(01-26-2021, 02:03 PM)David Horn Wrote:

(01-25-2021, 07:24 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(01-25-2021, 03:21 PM)David Horn Wrote: The leading theory has the spread originating in a natural food market (think of this as a wild game meat market).  The originating bat may have defecated on food the game later ate, or bitten it.  The actual "how" is unknowable.  What seems cut-and-dry is the type of virus matches bat viruses, and no indication of artificial interference (think crispr-cas9) could be identified, which would be detectable by the pros involved in the investigation. Patient Zero probably ate the infected game, or was the person who processed it for sale.  Again, that info would be known to the investigating team.

Where are you getting your outdated information or haven't you took the time to update information yet? Are you still getting it directly from China? A group of government officials who are in cahoots with China? The scientists who are the ones tracing it/ investigating it already know that it was a scientific project associated with a laboratory in Wuhan, China that went awry and spread from there. The virus is a combination of two bat virus associated with two different species of bats from different regions and an infected test animal of some sort that infected a laboratory worker and possibly some coworkers who unknowingly spread it to the public from there.

I did some more investigating, and you're more right than wrong.  China, never good at being open and inviting, is hiding somethings. Was the virus manipulated?  Perhaps. If so, then the Chinese military may owe the world an abject apology.  If that's true, then I'll bet on sloppiness rather than bad intent.  If you weaponize something, you don't let it get out of the lab.

Yes, indeed: if you have bats infected with COVID-19 you kill them and destroy them as completely as possible, incinerating the dead bats along with the SARS-2 virus. Unknown viruses should always be treated as supremely dangerous until proved otherwise. There is usually no medical treatment for an infectious virus except for fortifying the immune system and dealing with the symptoms until the infection and the symptoms are no more.

[mamabug]

(01-26-2021, 02:03 PM)David Horn Wrote: I did some more investigating, and you're more right than wrong.  China, never good at being open and inviting, is hiding somethings. Was the virus manipulated?  Perhaps. If so, then the Chinese military may owe the world an abject apology.  If that's true, then I'll bet on sloppiness rather than bad intent.  If you weaponize something, you don't let it get out of the lab.

Occam's razor since this started has suggested an accidental leak.  It's unclear whether it was a leak of a manipulated strain or a natural one, but manipulated doesn't mean weaponized.  There are numerous good reasons to alter a virus for study.

Since the start, China's behavior has only made sense if it was an accidental leak.  They imprisoned (and disappeared) doctors, nurses, journalists, lawyers, etc. who were trying to get word out to the world in November of a new virus and instructed overseas nationals to buy up PPE and ship it home before they began admitting anything might be going on.  It is exactly how you might expect an authoritarian regime that hates criticism would respond if they both knew something was going on AND knew it was a government agency's fault.

[David Horn]

(01-27-2021, 05:15 PM)mamabug Wrote:

(01-26-2021, 02:03 PM)David Horn Wrote: I did some more investigating, and you're more right than wrong.  China, never good at being open and inviting, is hiding somethings. Was the virus manipulated?  Perhaps. If so, then the Chinese military may owe the world an abject apology.  If that's true, then I'll bet on sloppiness rather than bad intent.  If you weaponize something, you don't let it get out of the lab.

Occam's razor since this started has suggested an accidental leak.  It's unclear whether it was a leak of a manipulated strain or a natural one, but manipulated doesn't mean weaponized.  There are numerous good reasons to alter a virus for study.

Since the start, China's behavior has only made sense if it was an accidental leak.  They imprisoned (and disappeared) doctors, nurses, journalists, lawyers, etc. who were trying to get word out to the world in November of a new virus and instructed overseas nationals to buy up PPE and ship it home before they began admitting anything might be going on.  It is exactly how you might expect an authoritarian regime that hates criticism would respond if they both knew something was going on AND knew it was a government agency's fault.

Intent of the work aside, I agree that the Chinese are inherently secretive and worse when they have exposure.  Nonetheless, it says a lot about us that we are still chest deep in this pandemic, while Wuhan is more or less back to normal.