The Maelstrom of Violence

[mamabug]

(01-27-2021, 05:35 PM)David Horn Wrote: Intent of the work aside, I agree that the Chinese are inherently secretive and worse when they have exposure.  Nonetheless, it says a lot about us that we are still chest deep in this pandemic, while Wuhan is more or less back to normal.

I would argue that it says 'flatten the curve' worked as intended.  If a new disease comes out that X% of the population is not immune to, then once that disease becomes endemic it is impossible to prevent that X% from catching it without an intervention such as a vaccine.  The disease will continue to spread until it has reached everyone who is not immune, unless they die first.  Basic epidemiology.

Flatten the curve was never intended (before it became political) to stop X% from catching COVID, it was intended to make sure the rate of infection remained low enough that hospitals were not overwhelmed (like in Wuhan).  It meant it would take longer to reach the full set of non-immune people, but nobody would die due to lack of resources.  Once vaccines became feasible, there was the possibility of reducing that X% by a significant factor to reduce the actual volume under the curve.

In Wuhan, the original strain of COVID ran unchecked and reached close the full number of non-immune people available within a short period of time.  The rest of the world is deep in the pandemic because we made the choice to spread out our infections over time.  Now, whether this will change if the new strains are significantly different enough from the original to cause reinfection is a different issue that nobody knows enough about to say for sure.  FWIW, a lot of people predicted this would occur back in the first stage of lockdowns - Coronavirus' tend to mutate and any immunity conferred by infection only lasts about 18 months.  '

There is a solid argument to be made that lockdowns have made things worse, but I doubt we will really know until someone does a good study about a decade from now.  The trouble with being in the midst of it is politicians are averse to accepting visible risks that people can lay at their doorstep, but have no problem with accepting the hidden risks (like higher suicide rates of children with no social outlets).

Also, last thought, it is easier to control a pandemic when you can weld people into their houses or disappear them to a concentration camp. 

[David Horn]

(01-27-2021, 06:16 PM)mamabug Wrote:

(01-27-2021, 05:35 PM)David Horn Wrote: Intent of the work aside, I agree that the Chinese are inherently secretive and worse when they have exposure.  Nonetheless, it says a lot about us that we are still chest deep in this pandemic, while Wuhan is more or less back to normal.

I would argue that it says 'flatten the curve' worked as intended.  If a new disease comes out that X% of the population is not immune to, then once that disease becomes endemic it is impossible to prevent that X% from catching it without an intervention such as a vaccine.  The disease will continue to spread until it has reached everyone who is not immune, unless they die first.  Basic epidemiology.

Flatten the curve was never intended (before it became political) to stop X% from catching COVID, it was intended to make sure the rate of infection remained low enough that hospitals were not overwhelmed (like in Wuhan).  It meant it would take longer to reach the full set of non-immune people, but nobody would die due to lack of resources.  Once vaccines became feasible, there was the possibility of reducing that X% by a significant factor to reduce the actual volume under the curve.

In Wuhan, the original strain of COVID ran unchecked and reached close the full number of non-immune people available within a short period of time.  The rest of the world is deep in the pandemic because we made the choice to spread out our infections over time.  Now, whether this will change if the new strains are significantly different enough from the original to cause reinfection is a different issue that nobody knows enough about to say for sure.  FWIW, a lot of people predicted this would occur back in the first stage of lockdowns - Coronavirus' tend to mutate and any immunity conferred by infection only lasts about 18 months.

Wuhan never got that deep, and China, as a whole, is still way behind us. Even more to the point, both Australia and New Zealand managed to stop COVID in its tracks. South Korea, Singapore and Taiwan were also successful. It's not pretty, but it can be done -- assuming a willing citizenry. Those Asian nations had to deal with SARS, and learned from the experience.

mamabug Wrote:There is a solid argument to be made that lockdowns have made things worse, but I doubt we will really know until someone does a good study about a decade from now.  The trouble with being in the midst of it is politicians are averse to accepting visible risks that people can lay at their doorstep, but have no problem with accepting the hidden risks (like higher suicide rates of children with no social outlets).

We already know. It's not 'knowing' that's the problem. It's the 'doing'.

mamabug Wrote:Also, last thought, it is easier to control a pandemic when you can weld people into their houses or disappear them to a concentration camp. 

If people are going to risk everything for short term gain, it's not likely that anything short of martial law will stop them from being stupid.

[mamabug]

(01-28-2021, 06:03 AM)David Horn Wrote: If people are going to risk everything for short term gain, it's not likely that anything short of martial law will stop them from being stupid.

This, right here, is why nobody in this country can have a reasonable conversation.  

This year has convinced me that my optimism about humanity is completely misplaced.  99% truly are sheep who just want an easy slogan to bleat that makes them feel safe as well as morally superior, because thinking about complex issues and weighing differing risks is *hard*.

[Classic-Xer]

(01-28-2021, 06:03 AM)David Horn Wrote: If people are going to risk everything for short term gain, it's not likely that anything short of martial law will stop them from being stupid.

Yep. If the Democrats are going to risk everything for a short term gain, it's not likely that anything short of certain death or physical injury, violence that's widely known to be directed at them or widely known and viewed as a result of something stupid that they've done as a group and the fear of facing all out war and massive loses will stop them from being stupid either. In short, the can't hold back America or hide the truth forever and its going to take more than a 4 Trillion dollar industry and some Covid deaths and a media mob to keep America muzzled and contained. You seen what American ingenuity can do when America has a problem that Washington DC and the bureaucratic clowns with permanent permanent paychecks and petty/ insecure politicians who don't know where to stand running it can't seem to fix or figure out these days.

Dave, are we talking about a lethal virus that kills most people it infects which would/should only warrant such a response these days or not? I don't know what your problem is or what you want America to become or do to please you or make you feel safe or which or what  agenda that you support because you're all over the place and contradicting yourself or going along with stuff that you claim that you don't support or want as it's going on.

[pbrower2a]

(01-28-2021, 01:11 PM)mamabug Wrote:

(01-28-2021, 06:03 AM)David Horn Wrote: If people are going to risk everything for short term gain, it's not likely that anything short of martial law will stop them from being stupid.

This, right here, is why nobody in this country can have a reasonable conversation.  

This year has convinced me that my optimism about humanity is completely misplaced.  99% truly are sheep who just want an easy slogan to bleat that makes them feel safe as well as morally superior, because thinking about complex issues and weighing differing risks is *hard*.

I had a horrible nightmare last night... mercifully I woke up. It was much like 1984 except that the social order was overtly plutocratic, and the system worked by ensuring that there was nothing on which the common man could spend his money except on vice, and that was fully commercialized and monopolized. People survive only so long as they are useful to the system, after which time they die of heatstroke, cold, or hunger... or are killed in particularly nasty ways (think of Roman circuses) if they turn to crime -- including political dissent as well as robbery-murder. Supposedly Akirema  is libertarian, but the social stratification is so rigid and severe that freedom is a commonly-used word that means little (except as sybaritic indulgence for elites). 

Heroin, meth, and pornography (including child porn) are readily available, but classical music, high-quality art, academic inquiry, slapstick comedy, and witty or piercing drama are as illicit in Akrema as are heroin, meth, and child porn in our world. (For someone with an IQ in the 120's or higher, that would be Hell!) Beauty contests are commonplace as entertainment, but 'winners' get introduced into 'high-class' prostitution. Newspeak is the norm, but there is enough more linguistic fraud that one can innovate without touching Orwell's language -- or that of the polished experts in Hitlerland and Stalinland. Poverty is plenty, stupidity is wisdom, and thought is crime... I think those are adequate spoofs of "War is peace, freedom is slavery, and Ignorance is strength" from 1984. Things are made, but but even the gadgets have limited lifespans as they are all intended to die for lack of some critical 'support' or simply 'expire' in due time so that people have to buy new and with a hefty price tag attached. Your computer makes it easy to play on-line slots or do sports betting, the dumbest of gambling possible. Or you can bet on the stock market (buying options but not stocks) to day-trade in a crooked casino in which insider trading and pump-and-dump scams are the norm instead of ways to go to prison in America or a death chamber in China. There are plenty of ways to die young... and nobody really cares.

[Bob Butler 54]

(01-28-2021, 06:03 AM)David Horn Wrote: If people are going to risk everything for short term gain, it's not likely that anything short of martial law will stop them from being stupid.

If you manage to find a way to stop people from being stupid, make sure you get the copyright.

[pbrower2a]

(01-25-2021, 06:55 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(01-25-2021, 06:39 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: So, how long will it take to inoculate 300 million people twice during the middle of a global pandemic?

Last guess I heard was that they would be down to young people without an essential worker privilege by early this summer.

At that rate about every young adult would be competing for a job as an 'essential worker' for that privilege.

[pbrower2a]

(01-25-2021, 07:24 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(01-25-2021, 03:21 PM)David Horn Wrote:

(01-25-2021, 02:42 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(01-25-2021, 01:02 PM)David Horn Wrote:

(01-24-2021, 11:43 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Actually, the COVID bug wasn't a product of nature as you say. COVID19 was most likely manufactured by a group humans (scientists) working in a Chinese laboratory in Wuhan, China. You should start watching FOX more, you might learn something completely different that blue media isn't telling you these days.

The world's leading authorities on infectious diseases determined that COVID19 may be a novel virus, it's not a manufactured one.  What authority does FOX call on for it's baseless claim?

The chance of a bat from this part of the world and a bat from that part of the world coming in contact with each other then coming in contact with another animal of some sort (undetermined by science at the moment) before coming into contact with a human and then spreading world wide is what? One in a billion chance? There's a group of scientists who know that the virus was made by man in a laboratory in Wuhan, China. So, where did you get your information? China or a group of leading authorities who are in business with China?

The leading theory has the spread originating in a natural food market (think of this as a wild game meat market).  The originating bat may have defecated on food the game later ate, or bitten it.  The actual "how" is unknowable.  What seems cut-and-dry is the type of virus matches bat viruses, and no indication of artificial interference (think crispr-cas9) could be identified, which would be detectable by the pros involved in the investigation. Patient Zero probably ate the infected game, or was the person who processed it for sale.  Again, that info would be known to the investigating team.

Where are you getting your outdated information or haven't you took the time to update information yet? Are you still getting it directly from China? A group of government officials who are in cahoots with China? The scientists who are the ones tracing it/ investigating it already know that it was a scientific project associated with a laboratory in Wuhan, China that went awry and spread from there. The virus is a combination of two bat virus associated with two different species of bats from different regions and an infected test animal of some sort that infected a laboratory worker and possibly some coworkers who unknowingly spread it to the public from there.

Anyone who still trusts official Chinese news sources on anything involving China without fact-checking is as much a fool as someone who trusts Russian sources on anything. I am harsher on Russia on that because the Russians are far closer to us in culture and have more cultural connections to America (one particular ethnic group that has more to fear in Russia than in America, and if in America and having connections to similar people in Russia still have much to fear on behalf of their loved ones in Russia). I wouldn't trust anything from RT unless it were strictly a cultural program. Swan Lake and Dmitri Shostakovich's Quintet for piano and strings are hard to put propaganda into. 

In case anyone thinks that a news source is reliable because it is hostile to the PRC, then think again: 

EPOCH TIMES





QUESTIONABLE SOURCE
A questionable source exhibits one or more of the following: extreme bias, consistent promotion of propaganda/conspiracies, poor or no sourcing to credible information, a complete lack of transparency and/or is fake news. Fake News is the deliberate attempt to publish hoaxes and/or disinformation for the purpose of profit or influence (Learn More). Sources listed in the Questionable Category may be very untrustworthy and should be fact checked on a per article basis. Please note sources on this list are not considered fake news unless specifically written in the reasoning section for that source. See all Questionable sources.

• Overall, we rate The Epoch Times Right Biased and Questionable based on the publication of pseudoscience and the promotion of propaganda and conspiracy theories as well as numerous failed fact checks.
  
  
  
  
• [b]History
  [/b]
  The Epoch Times is an international, multi-language news media company in print and online. The Epoch Times first published in New York in April 2000 (in Chinese only) and the online edition in August 2000. In 2003, The Epoch Times launched an online edition in English, which began printing as a newspaper in New York in 2004.  The Epoch Times is founded by John Tang and a group of Chinese-American Falun Gong practitioners. The Epoch Times publishes in 21 languages in 35 countries across five continents. Their focus topics include sections for world and national news, op-eds, sports, entertainment, business, arts and culture, travel, and health.
  On December 20, 2019, it was reported that Facebook took down more than 600 accounts connected to The Epoch Times. According to an NBC News report “The network was called ‘The BL’ and was run by Vietnamese users posing as Americans, using fake photos generated by algorithms to simulate real identities. The Epoch Media group, which pushes a variety of pro-Trump conspiracy theories, spent $9.5 million on ads to spread content through the now-suspended pages and groups.”
  

Editorially, there is a very strong Pro-Trump bias, with almost all articles praising Trump and denigrating the left such as these Democratic Party: A Broken Kaleidoscope? and Five Reasons Trump’s Celebration of America Was Epic Display of Patriotism. According to an NBC News report the “outlet has spent more than $1.5 million on about 11,000 pro-Trump advertisements in the last six months, according to data from Facebook’s advertising archive — more than any organization outside of the Trump campaign itself, and more than most Democratic presidential candidates have spent on their own campaigns.” In general, straight news reporting is sourced and mostly low biased, however, op-eds 100% favor the right with some promoting conspiracy theories. During the 2020 Coronavirus outbreak and the 2020 Presidential election, they have promoted misinformation. See failed fact checks below.
Failed Fact Checks

• Jack Andraka, 15, came up with a “100 percent accurate” cancer-detection method that was “168 times faster, 26,000 times less expensive, and 400 times more sensitive” than current methods. – False
  
  
• Dubious Posts Tie Political Families to Ukraine Work – False
  
  
• No, Yellowstone volcano’s eruption threat level did not increase in 2018 – False (Corrected)
  
  
• Concerned artificial intelligence researchers hurriedly abandoned an experimental chatbot program after they realized that the bots were inventing their own language. – False
  
  
• Did China’s Communist government create the novel coronavirus in a laboratory and release it into the world as a deadly bioweapon? – False 
  
  
• President Donald Trump has 232 electoral votes, Joe Biden has 212, 226 or 227. – False
  

Further, the Epoch Times has a section called Beyond Science that publishes pseudoscience news, such as Supernormal Abilities Developed Through Meditation: Dr. Dean Radin Discusses. Finally, the above referenced NBC News report states “In addition to claims that alien abductions are real and the drug epidemic was engineered by the “deep state,” the channel pushes the QAnon conspiracy theory, which falsely posits that the same “Spygate” cabal is a front for a global pedophile ring being taken down by Trump.”
Overall, we rate The Epoch Times Right Biased and Questionable based on the publication of pseudoscience and the promotion of propaganda and conspiracy theories as well as numerous failed fact checks. (M. Huitsing 8/21/2017) (Updated 11/13/2020)
Source: https://www.theepochtimes.com

Personal comment:

To be sure, this site is harshly critical of anything sympathetic to the personality cult surrounding Donald Trump... but anyone who still believes him and takes his claim that he can "Make America Great Again" at face value is a fool. That's harsh judgment on my part, and I have gotten a thick rap sheet for self-righteousness. At least I confess. Is it wise to swim in a sewer?  I would not accept any new story from a source considered "mixed" (and that is even worse than "very low" because the source itself discredits its story, as with InfoWars or the Palmer Report.  

[Classic-Xer]

(01-28-2021, 04:02 PM)pbrower2a Wrote:

(01-25-2021, 06:55 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(01-25-2021, 06:39 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: So, how long will it take to inoculate 300 million people twice during the middle of a global pandemic?

Last guess I heard was that they would be down to young people without an essential worker privilege by early this summer.

At that rate about every young adult would be competing for a job as an 'essential worker' for that privilege.

What about the 11,000 American union workers who had that privilege that Biden removed with a stroke of a pen the other day? Do you think a man with a sound mind who was American minded or Democratic minded American would do something foolish like that to please the Progressive minded during a national crisis that's been causing American job losses and killing American business's for several months. Welcome to the 4T.

[pbrower2a]

Coal mining, especially underground, is a dying business, and at this I refer not to the well-known dangers of coal mining as I do to the working-out of known coal seams. The once-powerful United Mine Workers Union (UMWU) that made practically ensured that West Virginia would be a safe D state in any but a 49-state Republican blowout (it went once against Eisenhower, against Reagan in 1980, and against the elder Bush in 1988) has been weakened for that alone. Surface mining, which is more catastrophic to the environment, does not need the highly-skilled union miners; that is most of the contemporary coal mining. West Virginia has gone for the Democratic Presidential nominee in 350-plus electoral vote elections for the Republican before 1980 and against the Democrat in the one 350+ landslide for a Democratic nominee since 2008. It is the only State that has done so since 1970.

Alternative energy could well be the revival of the energy business in what used to be the coal fields, and I can easily imagine the United Mine Workers' Union getting a revival in the area... and new-found political influence. I can hardly imagine more appropriate places for solar panels than the ravaged hilltops that recently had surface coal seams to strip mine. Oh, they will no longer be miners? We have the Teamsters' Union, and not many Teamsters are literal teamsters of the old kind.

Alternative energy will more require formal learning and less on vocational skill, but it would have a relatively concentrated and skilled workforce much like the oil industry, whose refineries and oil fields are heavily organized.

Reviving the economies of middle-Pennsylvania, West Virginia, eastern Kentucky, and southeastern Ohio could well be a win-win for Democrats as well as the rest of America. I don't live there, but I would prefer that people live at least as well as the underground coal miners of yore used to. The only people that that can hurt politically are the local Republican pols, who have done little more than to make the same mistakes as the Democratic machines did there of failing to make the appropriate investments in education, roads, and public health because King Coal did not need much formal education or good roads and because the UMWU was able to get above-average medical insurance for miners... and coal miners needed that. Oh, did they need that!

[Eric the Green]

(01-27-2021, 06:16 PM)mamabug Wrote:

(01-27-2021, 05:35 PM)David Horn Wrote: Intent of the work aside, I agree that the Chinese are inherently secretive and worse when they have exposure.  Nonetheless, it says a lot about us that we are still chest deep in this pandemic, while Wuhan is more or less back to normal.

I would argue that it says 'flatten the curve' worked as intended.  If a new disease comes out that X% of the population is not immune to, then once that disease becomes endemic it is impossible to prevent that X% from catching it without an intervention such as a vaccine.  The disease will continue to spread until it has reached everyone who is not immune, unless they die first.  Basic epidemiology.

Flatten the curve was never intended (before it became political) to stop X% from catching COVID, it was intended to make sure the rate of infection remained low enough that hospitals were not overwhelmed (like in Wuhan).  It meant it would take longer to reach the full set of non-immune people, but nobody would die due to lack of resources.  Once vaccines became feasible, there was the possibility of reducing that X% by a significant factor to reduce the actual volume under the curve.

In Wuhan, the original strain of COVID ran unchecked and reached close the full number of non-immune people available within a short period of time.  The rest of the world is deep in the pandemic because we made the choice to spread out our infections over time.  Now, whether this will change if the new strains are significantly different enough from the original to cause reinfection is a different issue that nobody knows enough about to say for sure.  FWIW, a lot of people predicted this would occur back in the first stage of lockdowns - Coronavirus' tend to mutate and any immunity conferred by infection only lasts about 18 months.  '

There is a solid argument to be made that lockdowns have made things worse, but I doubt we will really know until someone does a good study about a decade from now.  The trouble with being in the midst of it is politicians are averse to accepting visible risks that people can lay at their doorstep, but have no problem with accepting the hidden risks (like higher suicide rates of children with no social outlets).

Also, last thought, it is easier to control a pandemic when you can weld people into their houses or disappear them to a concentration camp. 

The USA failed to contain the covid virus because, unlike before, Trump and the Republicans had shut down the response teams and methods for containing it that had been built by Obama, Susan Rice, Dr. Fauci, etc. Then they called it a hoax that would just go away, even though Trump knew it was serious, and would not, giving as an excuse that to tell the truth "would cause a panic." You cannot shift the blame from Trump, as you Republicans would love to do. He blew it. He did not establish a national plan, using the NWPA to combat the virus with tests, quarantines, masks, closures of gatherings and other measures, but left it to states without any funds to do it. His Republican governors in Florida, Texas, Georgia, Arizona, etc. made sure that the people had no protection and no means of dealing with the virus. When lockdowns did happen, they helped. But Trump and the Republican extremists politicized the virus and made mask wearing a Democratic Party behavior, and held super-spreader events, and that's why the virus came back during travel season after some small declines and killed more than twice as many as should have died.

The containment measures worked in some countries, including some democracies, where people have an awareness of collective needs, but the USA is a huge libertarian country. When the virus came here, it said "oh boy, yum yum! A libertarian country! We'll just be allowed in! No-one will help each other; they are all individualists! They believe in "freedom" and "self-reliance" OH BOY!"

[mamabug]

Oh, yes, it was only the Republicans who politicized this thing. Whatever.

[Classic-Xer]

(01-28-2021, 05:32 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: Coal mining, especially underground, is a dying business, and at this I refer not to the well-known dangers of coal mining as I do to the working-out of known coal seams. The once-powerful United Mine Workers Union (UMWU) that made practically ensured that West Virginia would be a safe D state in any but a 49-state Republican blowout (it went once against Eisenhower, against Reagan in 1980, and against the elder Bush in 1988) has been weakened for that alone. Surface mining, which is more catastrophic to the environment, does not need the highly-skilled union miners; that is most of the contemporary coal mining. West Virginia has gone for the Democratic Presidential nominee in 350-plus electoral vote elections for the Republican before 1980 and against the Democrat in the one 350+ landslide for a Democratic nominee since 2008. It is the only State that has done so since 1970.

Alternative energy could well be the revival of the energy business in what used to be the coal fields, and I can easily imagine the United Mine Workers' Union getting a revival in the area... and new-found political influence. I can hardly imagine more appropriate places for solar panels than the ravaged hilltops that recently had surface coal seams to strip mine. Oh, they will no longer be miners? We have the Teamsters' Union, and not many Teamsters are literal teamsters of the old kind.

Alternative energy will more require formal learning and less on vocational skill, but it would have a relatively concentrated and skilled workforce much like the oil industry, whose refineries and oil fields are heavily organized.

Reviving the economies of middle-Pennsylvania, West Virginia, eastern Kentucky, and southeastern Ohio could well be a win-win for Democrats as well as the rest of America. I don't live there, but I would prefer that people live at least as well as the underground coal miners of yore used to. The only people that that can hurt politically are the local Republican pols, who have done little more than to make the same mistakes as the Democratic machines did there of failing to make the appropriate investments in education, roads, and public health because King Coal did not need much formal education or good roads and because the UMWU  was able to get above-average medical insurance for miners... and coal miners needed that. Oh, did they need that!

Dude, you're not going to be able to power the entire country off solar panels and  windmills alone. I think America can do better than that in the long run myself. I have a better idea lets force China to fall in line with the rest of the world and clean up its act. Keep in mind, the Third Reich had a master plan, big dreams like Progressives do these days and a belief that it would last a thousand years that blew up in its face. Is it a coincidence that the same red states that filed a grievance just had a major oil line project related to all of them stopped in it tracks. This is supposed to be a time of unity and working together and not supposed to be time to demonstrate power and authority. Do you know what I would do, I'd ignore the order and give Biden the finger and continue and force Biden's hand at the wrong time in history. I'm done with the Democrats and all their bullshit. Welcome to the 4T.

[Classic-Xer]

Eric the Green

(01-27-2021, 06:16 PM)mamabug Wrote:

(01-27-2021, 05:35 PM)David Horn Wrote: Intent of the work aside, I agree that the Chinese are inherently secretive and worse when they have exposure.  Nonetheless, it says a lot about us that we are still chest deep in this pandemic, while Wuhan is more or less back to normal.

I would argue that it says 'flatten the curve' worked as intended.  If a new disease comes out that X% of the population is not immune to, then once that disease becomes endemic it is impossible to prevent that X% from catching it without an intervention such as a vaccine.  The disease will continue to spread until it has reached everyone who is not immune, unless they die first.  Basic epidemiology.

Flatten the curve was never intended (before it became political) to stop X% from catching COVID, it was intended to make sure the rate of infection remained low enough that hospitals were not overwhelmed (like in Wuhan).  It meant it would take longer to reach the full set of non-immune people, but nobody would die due to lack of resources.  Once vaccines became feasible, there was the possibility of reducing that X% by a significant factor to reduce the actual volume under the curve.

In Wuhan, the original strain of COVID ran unchecked and reached close the full number of non-immune people available within a short period of time.  The rest of the world is deep in the pandemic because we made the choice to spread out our infections over time.  Now, whether this will change if the new strains are significantly different enough from the original to cause reinfection is a different issue that nobody knows enough about to say for sure.  FWIW, a lot of people predicted this would occur back in the first stage of lockdowns - Coronavirus' tend to mutate and any immunity conferred by infection only lasts about 18 months.  '

There is a solid argument to be made that lockdowns have made things worse, but I doubt we will really know until someone does a good study about a decade from now.  The trouble with being in the midst of it is politicians are averse to accepting visible risks that people can lay at their doorstep, but have no problem with accepting the hidden risks (like higher suicide rates of children with no social outlets).

Also, last thought, it is easier to control a pandemic when you can weld people into their houses or disappear them to a concentration camp. 

The USA failed to contain the covid virus because, unlike before, Trump and the Republicans had shut down the response teams and methods for containing it that had been built by Obama, Susan Rice, Dr. Fauci, etc. Then they called it a hoax that would just go away, even though Trump knew it was serious, and would not, giving as an excuse that to tell the truth "would cause a panic." You cannot shift the blame from Trump, as you Republicans would love to do. He blew it. He did not establish a national plan, using the NWPA to combat the virus with tests, quarantines, masks, closures of gatherings and other measures, but left it to states without any funds to do it. His Republican governors in Florida, Texas, Georgia, Arizona, etc. made sure that the people had no protection and no means of dealing with the virus. When lockdowns did happen, they helped. But Trump and the Republican extremists politicized the virus and made mask wearing a Democratic Party behavior, and held super-spreader events, and that's why the virus came back during travel season after some small declines and killed more than twice as many as should have died.

The containment measures worked in some countries, including some democracies, where people have an awareness of collective needs, but the USA is a huge libertarian country. When the virus came here, it said "oh boy, yum yum! A libertarian country! We'll just be allowed in! No-one will help each other; they are all individualists! They believe in "freedom" and "self-reliance" OH BOY!"
[/quote]

China failed to contain the virus and failed to inform us of it as well. It's hard to stop/contain an unknown virus that shows up here unexpectedly begins to spread prior to being imformed. It doesn't matter what some group think tank came up with, we'd still be in the same situation we are in today. You're not thinking again as usual. You can suck up and tap elbows with China and let bygones be bygones and get back to business as usual. You'll look like shit to Americans but when has that ever bothered Progressives. Get your facts straight and get yourself up to speed because Trump ain't around to falsely accuse, persecute and blame anymore. The Democrats are the only game in town and they only group to blame for everything that goes wrong from here on. Yep, we are a large libertarian country with a large libertarian population that's damn near impossible to control that's involved in just about everything. So, how much money can America legally remove from the Facebook dude, the twitter dude? I've helped quite a few people during my life. I have nothing to feel guilty or ashamed of these days.

[Classic-Xer]

(01-29-2021, 04:22 PM)mamabug Wrote: Oh, yes, it was only the Republicans who politicized this thing.  Whatever.

I can tell that Eric has never been in a position of authority. I mean, if there was a fire would you scream fire in a place packed with people. I wouldn't but Eric probably would because Eric doesn't think much these days.

[pbrower2a]

(01-30-2021, 02:57 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

Quote:Eric the Green

(01-27-2021, 06:16 PM)mamabug Wrote:

(01-27-2021, 05:35 PM)David Horn Wrote: Intent of the work aside, I agree that the Chinese are inherently secretive and worse when they have exposure.  Nonetheless, it says a lot about us that we are still chest deep in this pandemic, while Wuhan is more or less back to normal.

I would argue that it says 'flatten the curve' worked as intended.  If a new disease comes out that X% of the population is not immune to, then once that disease becomes endemic it is impossible to prevent that X% from catching it without an intervention such as a vaccine.  The disease will continue to spread until it has reached everyone who is not immune, unless they die first.  Basic epidemiology.

Flatten the curve was never intended (before it became political) to stop X% from catching COVID, it was intended to make sure the rate of infection remained low enough that hospitals were not overwhelmed (like in Wuhan).  It meant it would take longer to reach the full set of non-immune people, but nobody would die due to lack of resources.  Once vaccines became feasible, there was the possibility of reducing that X% by a significant factor to reduce the actual volume under the curve.

In Wuhan, the original strain of COVID ran unchecked and reached close the full number of non-immune people available within a short period of time.  The rest of the world is deep in the pandemic because we made the choice to spread out our infections over time.  Now, whether this will change if the new strains are significantly different enough from the original to cause reinfection is a different issue that nobody knows enough about to say for sure.  FWIW, a lot of people predicted this would occur back in the first stage of lockdowns - Coronavirus' tend to mutate and any immunity conferred by infection only lasts about 18 months.  '

There is a solid argument to be made that lockdowns have made things worse, but I doubt we will really know until someone does a good study about a decade from now.  The trouble with being in the midst of it is politicians are averse to accepting visible risks that people can lay at their doorstep, but have no problem with accepting the hidden risks (like higher suicide rates of children with no social outlets).

Also, last thought, it is easier to control a pandemic when you can weld people into their houses or disappear them to a concentration camp. 

The USA failed to contain the covid virus because, unlike before, Trump and the Republicans had shut down the response teams and methods for containing it that had been built by Obama, Susan Rice, Dr. Fauci, etc. Then they called it a hoax that would just go away, even though Trump knew it was serious, and would not, giving as an excuse that to tell the truth "would cause a panic." You cannot shift the blame from Trump, as you Republicans would love to do. He blew it. He did not establish a national plan, using the NWPA to combat the virus with tests, quarantines, masks, closures of gatherings and other measures, but left it to states without any funds to do it. His Republican governors in Florida, Texas, Georgia, Arizona, etc. made sure that the people had no protection and no means of dealing with the virus. When lockdowns did happen, they helped. But Trump and the Republican extremists politicized the virus and made mask wearing a Democratic Party behavior, and held super-spreader events, and that's why the virus came back during travel season after some small declines and killed more than twice as many as should have died.

The containment measures worked in some countries, including some democracies, where people have an awareness of collective needs, but the USA is a huge libertarian country. When the virus came here, it said "oh boy, yum yum! A libertarian country! We'll just be allowed in! No-one will help each other; they are all individualists! They believe in "freedom" and "self-reliance" OH BOY!"

China failed to contain the virus and failed to inform us of it as well. It's hard to stop/contain an unknown virus that we nothing about in advance that  shows up begins to spread unexpectedly. It doesn't matter what some group think tank came up with, we'd still be in the same situation we are in today. You're not thinking again as usual. You can suck up and tap elbows with China and let bygones be bygones and get back to business as usual. You'll look like ---- to Americans but when has that ever bothered Progressives. Get your facts straight and get yourself up to speed because Trump ain't around to falsely accuse, persecute and blame anymore. The Democrats are the only game in town and they only group to blame for everything that goes wrong from here on. Yep, we are a large libertarian country with a large libertarian population that's damn near impossible to control that's involved in just about everything. So, how much money can America legally remove from the Facebook dude, the twitter dude? I've helped quite a few people during my life. I have nothing to feel guilty or ashamed of these days.

Trump was a horrible leader. We Americans could have stopped COVID-19 far faster than we did. We were in fact slow to get it, but we could have kept the curve flat enough long enough to keep about 400,000 of those who have died from dying. It would have taken shutting down the US as such a state as Michigan did. We could have had masks in place as a norm, and we would have have been able to have had open movie theaters, concert halls, and sporting arenas. Instead we had mass death characteristic of a shooting war. 

We needed not ask "What would China think?"

...again you seem to believe that the only real Americans share your reactionary beliefs . On the whole we Progressives have done far better in administering a response to COVID-19. Sure, Trump is no longer around. He has become the scapegoat for much that went wrong while he was President. Trump is not a Christian, he is not a conservative, and he is not a libertarian. He stands for right-wing Big Government, and his God is Mammon.

[David Horn]

(01-29-2021, 04:22 PM)mamabug Wrote: Oh, yes, it was only the Republicans who politicized this thing.  Whatever.

Only, no.  Mostly, yes.  The Tories in the UK did similar damage there.  If you spend your time and money convincing folks that up is down, you'll get lots of converts.

[Einzige]

Both capitalist parties are absolute garbage, funded by think tanks advancing the agenda of billionaires. Where they address legitimate concerns - e.g. global climate catastrophe- the way they intend to ameliorate those problems are designed to advance corporate interests and nothing more (e.g. the CEO of Ebay funding the Sunrise Movement - go Green, but in the context of Green Capitalism).

Fuck your society. And fuck wage labor.

[pbrower2a]

(01-31-2021, 09:38 AM)Einzige Wrote: Both capitalist parties are absolute garbage, funded by think tanks advancing the agenda of billionaires. Where they address legitimate concerns - e.g. global climate catastrophe- the way they intend to ameliorate those problems are designed to advance corporate interests and nothing more (e.g. the CEO of Ebay funding the Sunrise Movement - go Green, but in the context of Green Capitalism).

(Expletive deleted)  your society. And (expletive deleted) wage labor.

Some people must be rewarded for doing wage labor, much of which has been dangerous, unpleasant, or harmful. How else does one get people to work in coal or uranium mines than above-average wages?

[David Horn]

(01-31-2021, 09:38 AM)Einzige Wrote: Both capitalist parties are absolute garbage, funded by think tanks advancing the agenda of billionaires. Where they address legitimate concerns - e.g. global climate catastrophe- the way they intend to ameliorate those problems are designed to advance corporate interests and nothing more (e.g. the CEO of Ebay funding the Sunrise Movement - go Green, but in the context of Green Capitalism).

Fuck your society. And fuck wage labor.

Wage labor is still needed. so it will only disappear when machine labor can do everything without assistance from humans.  At that point, you have to ask: what are humans supposed to do to keep themselves occupied?  Boredom isn't freedom.