The generations and Pluto: 

As a Gen Joneser, I was too young to serve in Vietnam or do all the sit-ins, but old enough to remember or  see the effect of  the assassinations of hero-type people like JFK, MLK, Bobbie, and Malcolm X. I call Gen Jones the Assassination Generation because that affected us more than anyone will admit. Gen Jones has Silent parents. Gen Jones was born with Pluto in sober, adult Virgo; we roll up our sleeves and quietly get things done with little notice or reward. Practical Pluto in Virgo Jonesers swing both conservative or liberal; depending on the Silents who raised them. Generous Silent parents created conservative Jonesers; selfish Silents created liberal Jonesers. We are hard  working, sturdy, survivors, serious, grown-up-too-fast, perfectionists, making order out of chaos, always feeling left out,  raised with high economic expectations but  realizing none of these because of de-regulation, pink-slipping, downsizing, greedy 80's policies.   
 
Boomers were born with Pluto in Leo; the teenager of the zodiac with all the insecurities, need to fit in, judgemental attitudes, selfish narcissism, attention-hogging, demanding, needy, vain characters and personalities of teenagers everywhere. Boomers have that "Me, me, ME" attitude.
 
Silents were born with Pluto in Cancer; they got married and had kids early yet did the worst job of nurturing their kids. Cancer is the crab that hoards everything for themselves and won't give up anything; they hold what's theirs like a crab does with their claws; even when you chop off the claw the claw will not open and give up what it has. These Pluto in Cancer Silents are a cardinal sign meaning they want to be the leaders but were stifled in that by the super-hero GI's and super-loud Boomers. So they control what they can and that means they control the assets they were so lucky to accumulate and hoard in their lives. They use those assets to have fun and control their Gen Jones and Gen X kids. 
 
Gen X are the Pluto in Libra folks; Libra being the ones that love balance and beauty and the good life and partnerships but they were raised by selfish Silents or Boomers and so they haven't the economic means to achieve that love of beauty. They grew up in the excessive greed of the 80's but upon reaching adulthood, could not have any of the largesse the Silents and Boomers got. Their Silent and Boomer parents divorced in record numbers but these Pluto in Libra (the sign of marriage) folks had to fend for themselves and grow up fast; they desired marriages but not the easily broken kind like their Silent and Boomer parents. So they were tentative in marriage and seek a balance (another Libra trait) in their work-lives that their parents never looked for because they had it so much easier. They, too, are cardinal folks but  have not had the ability to lead because Silents and Boomers will not relinquish their grip on power. 
 
Millennials are the Pluto in Scorpio folks. Scorpio being about sexuality, death, taxes, inheritances and other people's money; is it any wonder these folks have totally changed the way we all think of gender (transgender, non-binary, gender-fluid, gender-queer, different pronouns) and sex (asexual, pansexual, demisexual, )? They inherit the bad choices of the previous generations, they pay higher taxes to fund the greedier older generations, they now have deadly global warming to contend with and Boomers that will NOT give up their places or their riches for the Millennials who have to have a degree to get jobs but there's few full time jobs available so they end up living with their Joneser or Boomer parents (living off other people's money). That Scorpio death part shows up in their nihilism and nihilistic humor. 
 
Gen Z is the Pluto in Sagittarius generation. They have a much more global and philosophical outlook yet have a fatalistic view of life. Sagittarius are the philosophers of truth, it rules higher love, global ways of thinking, cultural investigations, foreign people, cultures, languages, higher education like college, and long-range communications. These kids grew up with hand-held computers that gave them a global reach before they could even read. They are far more exposed to foreign cultural icons, arts, thinking, philosophy. Theirs is a group that shuns nationalism and sees spirituality as more important than established religion. 
 
And that's just Pluto; Uranus has an 84 year cycle (like the Turning cycle of S & H), Jupiter and Saturn have cycles as does Neptune. All outer planets exert generational influences.

House committee approves ban on drivers holding phones

https://www.al.com/news/2019/03/ban-on-a...ation.html

I don't understand this. As the 4T goes on more and more, I come more to the conclusion that the majority is terrible and that people are getting worse and worse. It makes me want to be a hermit, not unite or conform with people. When you see a 4T, you're looking at the evil of humanity and how terrible people can be. The only solution is to withdraw away from the world because people are getting worse.

(05-05-2019, 12:50 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(05-04-2019, 07:44 PM)Kinser79 Wrote: I would counter that I prefer them focusing on us rather than themselves.  Should they actually become self-aware they may take steps to prevent their own demise. 

I prefer to limit their demise to themselves as much as possible. I can't help it, it must be the tinch of Christian in me.

When is bigotry and racism or hatred and tribalism happening most in American civilization according to past Turnings?

In what Turning (of the four laid out by S&H) are these things happening the most?

Why does it seem that America always descends into factions during certain Turnings?  The idea of building walls and "grouping up" seems to make sense to many while in that period.  Folks are more willing to be against others and have no desire to "meld" with neighbors. 

When this is happening, is it a peak idea we can look at as to WHEN certain Turnings are happening?

Such as:

Where inside the Turning we are.  Beginning?  Middle?  End?  Does it correlate directly to the Turning?  When these things are at the societal zenith, we might be right in the Middle.  Or, if we see it happening, the Beginning.  Or, if it is getting resolved, the End?

I had started a thread earlier about comparing this 4T (in the U.S) to others, but it has mysteriously disappeared. So here is another one.

In the original thread, I kicked off with a comparison to the French Revolution inspired by seeing the play Marie Antoinnette. I realize this is comparing a 4T in France to a 4T in the U.S., but consider that the French Revolution is a kind of gold standard for a Fourth Turning. France was overtly attempting to reformat their society, to pull, or push themselves, as it were, through the gates of history. Here is a list of similarities that pop out based on my knowledge:

• The political extreme locked out the centrists (left vs. right originated in this time)
  
• Political correctness was enforced (with the guillotine then, with the hashtag now)
  
• There was an attempt to erase the past culturally, including changing public space (today we take down Confederate statues, then they attempted to eradicate the Church)
  
• Fake news was rampant (rumors spread via word of mouth and pamphlets then instead of digital memes, but they had the same effect of inciting people with false information)
  

• The leader of the country was in the thrall of a foreign power that was an ideological enemy (then, it was James II under the thumb of King Louis XIV of France, now it is President Trump under the thumb of Vladimir Putin)
  
• The country had a sense of identity crisis, a need to assert its true identity and rid itself of the contaminating influence (then it was Protestant England attempting to assert itself, now it is Progressive America)
  

• The country was, as now, split into two irreconcilable sides.
  
• There was a collapse of civility between the two sides.
  

• The rise of populism and authoritarianism globally, including in the U.S.
  
• The collapse of global alliances and return to nationalism
  
• Low fertility rates
  
• Falling homeownership rates and return to multigenerational households
  
• Economic insecurity and inequality
  

This mentality is foreign to me but I see it a lot in other generations. I've been told "You're a civic and civics aren't known for looking for stuff on their own. They just like big and corporate." and about how other generations are the ones who made up movements to rebel. But I don't have any time to wait for some other movement who will probably reject me anyways for the age group I'm in. Why is it less valid to search for things and find meaning on your own than it is to do so as some part of a big movement? People are telling me my experiences do not exist or matter. Once they hear a generation their mind goes blank with buzzwords. There are plenty of places to look for everything yet everyone tells me that what I do doesn't exist or that my own personal experiences do not exist. That I MUST be defined as what's out there now just because my parents fucked in some random time period. It all seems arbitrary and absurd to me. I'm a loner by nature so it's easy for me to define my own interests. I don't see why that somehow doesn't exist just because I'm not a part of this giant movement.

I don't know whether it's because of the authors' scarce reliance on actually good data, or because they ... quite literally are out of touch boomers, but the brackets to put these generations into are nonsense.

As Howe i think himself said these are not astronomical events you can't time them precisely.
And yet they assume generational lengths constant with about 10 years precision and cohort lengths with about 10 years precision as well, and then are remarkably steadfast about these arbitrary lines.

Well i'm here to tell whomever it may interest that at least the two three generations i have direct insight into are horribly misdefined and characterized.

-First and foremost, lumping in people born in 2005 with people born in '82 is about the least sensical and least substantiated decision possible. There is a reason people outside the US and most polling centers within the US use mid 1990's as the cutoff. (and conversely extend the starting years back a bit, so it lasts about 15 years) As a basis it needs to be established that the internet is the most defining thing of human existence nowadays. The most recent US presidential election went the way it did to a large extent because of the internet according to polling data after the fact, and that's just the most powerful country in the world. So the relation to the internet should be a defining factor in determining cohort intervals. With this in mind, millennials generally remember a time before being connected up. This is a defining trait. Millennials all at least had some form of 'being unsupervisable/unreachable', be that on the way to school at camp, etc. Psychologically this is a massively infuential, one might say defining characteristic of this cohort. They *conquered* the internet. They remember a time when the internet wasn't necessarily at home or available to them. They also do remember the actual importance and significance of 9/11.
This all stops after 1996.
People born from 1997 on can only remember the 9/11 event like a bad nightmare "with two burning towers falling down or something" to quote someone from the specified age range. They are thus too young to understand the reasoning behind the following reactionary actions. People after 1997 on average also had the internet available as a dial up as soon as they were old enough (school age/2004) to actually know what it was. There was no time that they could have actually reasonably used the internet but didn't for lack of availability. Most importantly however, cell phones were widely available and widely used by the time they were in any position to be sent alone anywhere. The options for them to be ever truly disconnected from parents are very scarce, especially with overprotective genX parents (soccer mom stereotype). How this makes for a huge impact on the psychological development of people probably doesn't need explaining.
There are also no generational differences in their experience to someone born in 2005 as far as i can tell. Both had cell-phones from the moment they could meaningfully use them - granted the later ones had smartphones.
What were major life affecting things that occurred between 2001(start of meaningful memories of 1997ers) and 2009(start of meaningful memories of 2005ers)? Wars, catastrophes, internet boom, policy changes, economic crash and historic election. All things that wouldn't influence the world of a young child much.
In other words there is nothing 2005ers experienced that 1997s didnt also experience and nothing 1997s experienced that 2005s didn't. This distinction is therefore meaningless. A distinction could possibly be 2003-4 which is the point from which people are too young to remember the crash of 2008.
What would make much more sense is a distinction around 2011 which is the point from which on a lot of people are on social media before they are born, and have access to smart toys and the internet and normal tech before they can completely deal with it, as in "completely growing up with tech." But this is still just a small distinction from 'growing up with tech from the point at which you can comprehend it" which is true from 1997 on.

-Next, identifying genZ as "Homelanders" is .... really really wrong. It's a bit presumptuous to name a generation not based on something they did (GI), or some temporal thing (millennials), but on something their parents/other people were focusing at the time of their birth years. Furthermore while GenX and Millennials were a step into a more global understanding of generations - a great step with human culture itself becoming more global - naming the one gneration whose existence has been most defined by the global village of the internet so far after a local trend is..... puzzling.
I mean it's a nice name, but it really can't be the primary name for the cohort. Millennials would self identify as millennials... i doubt homelanders would self identify as homelanders.
Futhermore GenZ has a sort of finality, a sense of "the world is circling the drain" "everything is depressing but i don't care" "lmao ? just yeet me off this planet?" about it that is incredibly common with people born in the 2000s.

-Additionally the cohort pew and some statistical people from the UK worked with (1997+) actually shows aigns of not fitting the 4 turnings model at all, indicating that the Artist generation is possibly yet to be born.
Millennials clearly fit the hero archetype the best, there can be no question to this. The best description i heard was explaining why the NPC memes affected their target so much "they grew up with everyone telling them that they could and woud be heroes and the protagonists of their stories, independently of upbringing, and this meme cuts at the heart of that, at the generational insecurity that they are allegedly just one in a mass and parroting what the establishment wants without individual agency." This individual agency and capacity being denied because of for example financial crises caused by people other than them is also what has prompted so many to be disillusioned with current society.
Compared to this however GenZ doesn't quiiiite fit the bill neither of the Hero, nor the Artist cohort.
Compared to their Millennial counterparts at the same age GenZ were found to be more fiscally conservative, more improving their behavior, more empathetic, fitting the hero generation more, but also far less politically active, and with less collective confidence, completely influenced by the circumstances of them growing up amidst economic uncertainty and turbulent political times with civil liberties curtailed.
One might argue of course that this is because that cohort is between the generations that are outlined in the 4 turnings theory, but the trend line shows that while the progress towards more and more liberalism has slowed in some aspects, in others it's not even close to peaking, so maybe we haven't even reached the true new Artist generation yet, who are supposed to grow up amidst the peak societal High. Because after all, even counting with 2005 as the starting year we're less than 4 years away from the first of this generation reaching adulthood. And i highly doubt that the conflict will be sufficiently and agreeably resolved within the next election cycle with trump being the only republican option and the democrats being in disarray.

In short: there's no indication or reason that birthyears 1997 and 2005 should be different, there is litle sign that anyone is in line to becoming conformist any time soon (at least not in a single groups and with civil engagement type of thing), not to mention that the current crisis will definitely not have ended when the designated artist generation comes of age,

I will refuse to be considered to be someone who was for censorship in the future. If some punk snot nosed kid in the future blames me for it for the year I was born in I'll chew them out and say how it took far more bravery to be me and against censorship in an era where people were for censorship and how they weren't brave because they were in the majority. I would chew him out majorly until he apologized to me otherwise I'd keep ranting and raving and pissing the idiot off. Also I'm not interested in the music right now so I refuse to be blamed for it. If another snot nosed kid blames me for it I too will chew them out on how they're ingrates and that back then I had to search for music while they didn't. Believe me, I will give the future generation a piece of my mind if they decide to blame me. Since I'm against the narrative of my so-called generation and will be blamed by future generations I'll have a lot of people I will have to chew out, spit, and leave in the dust. I don't care if it's in my generation or some generation before or after me. Nobody blames me or tells me what to think without negative consequences. It takes far more bravery to be me, an anti censorship person in a time where censorship is lauded than to be anti censorship when it's a safe opinion. I for one refuse to take any form of disrespect. How do you think they'll react to this? 

I had a thread titled "Compare this 4T to Others" or something similar. It was in the Turnings subforum. It started with a review of the play Marie Antoinette which is what inspired the topic. But it seems to have disappeared! Does anyone have any insights into how this could have happened? Have I misplaced it?