Trump Trainwreck - Ongoing diary of betrayal and evil

[Odin]

The head of American education is going to be the daughter in law of the founder of an infamous pyramid scheme. Wonderful....

[Eric the Green]

[Eric the Green]

Sebastiano Grasso:
TRUMP SPENT THANKSGIVING AT a VERY flashy Mar-a-Lago resort = WHILE PRESIDENT OBAMA served meals at an armed forces retirement home.

[Galen]

(11-27-2016, 12:41 AM)Eric the Green Wrote:

Considering how bad the public schools are how is any of this a problem.  At this point I am looking forward to see public employee unions go away.  Lets see how the Democrats do without Teacher's Union money.

[pbrower2a]

(11-27-2016, 12:48 AM)Galen Wrote: Considering how bad the public schools are how is any of this a problem.  At this point I am looking forward to see public employee unions go away.  Lets see how the Democrats do without Teacher's Union money.

Let's see how well public education does when teachers are paid like retail sales clerks.

For-profit education? Do you mean like the infamous Corinthian Colleges that induced students to borrow heavily in federally-insured student loans and gave bad vocational education? The Obama Administration cut off the student loans and Corinthian Colleges shut down. I understand that the Trump Administration wants to bring back such shyster schools.

Private schooling can do well when it cherry-picks elite students. So what? There are easy students to teach, and difficult ones. Public schools end up with many of the disabled and dull students. In  many schools and school districts, public schools double as social-service agencies, an added cost for dealing with students with problems. Let's say that the kids' parents have been busted for meth, and the kids have traumatic experiences of facing the Big Blue Meanies (the police) taking Mommy and Daddy away again, perhaps this time for ten-to-life. As a substitute I have had encountered such kids. it is not easy.

[Eric the Green]

Indeed, at just the time when there was talk about the need for someone other than the police to be social workers in poor communities, the people of Galen's persuasion are back in power and able to cut off social services and education even more. What the right-wing wants is for the poor and people of color to suffer, apparently. They want them to rise up, and get themselves shot and jailed by racist police. They are not satisfied with 40 years of national decline; they want more and more.

[Galen]

(11-27-2016, 03:55 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: Indeed, at just the time when there was talk about the need for someone other than the police to be social workers in poor communities, the people of Galen's persuasion are back in power and able to cut off social services and education even more. What the right-wing wants is for the poor and people of color to suffer, apparently. They want them to rise up, and get themselves shot and jailed by racist police. They are not satisfied with 40 years of national decline; they want more and more.

Not really, its just that government is so inefficient.

[Bob Butler 54]

(11-27-2016, 03:55 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: Indeed, at just the time when there was talk about the need for someone other than the police to be social workers in poor communities, the people of Galen's persuasion are back in power and able to cut off social services and education even more. What the right-wing wants is for the poor and people of color to suffer, apparently. They want them to rise up, and get themselves shot and jailed by racist police. They are not satisfied with 40 years of national decline; they want more and more.

There are racists and bad cops out there.  The entire Republican party, however, is not made up of racists and bad cops.  They just don't see as much of the problems we see in urban areas and don't want to spend a ton of money solving problems that they don't tend to see.

Thus, the above would be in some respects a vile stereotype, a slanderous negative image of those you disagree with.  To the degree you indulge yourself in such thinking and tell other people what they think, you aren't listening or growing.

The last election had both factions talking to their own bases in a "we're the good guys, they're the bad guys" partisan angle.  The degree to which the Democrats couldn't understand or didn't care about large parts of the country became a disaster for progressives.  I'd like to see one party or the other try to govern the whole country, not just the parts that have bought into their particular scheme.

[Bronsin]

You know you're on the right side when the opposition is burning flags and mourning Castro.

[Eric the Green]

(11-27-2016, 05:53 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(11-27-2016, 03:55 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: Indeed, at just the time when there was talk about the need for someone other than the police to be social workers in poor communities, the people of Galen's persuasion are back in power and able to cut off social services and education even more. What the right-wing wants is for the poor and people of color to suffer, apparently. They want them to rise up, and get themselves shot and jailed by racist police. They are not satisfied with 40 years of national decline; they want more and more.

There are racists and bad cops out there.  The entire Republican party, however, is not made up of racists and bad cops.  They just don't see as much of the problems we see in urban areas and don't want to spend a ton of money solving problems that they don't tend to see.

Thus, the above would be in some respects a vile stereotype, a slanderous negative image of those you disagree with.  To the degree you indulge yourself in such thinking and tell other people what they think, you aren't listening or growing.

The last election had both factions talking to their own bases in a "we're the good guys, they're the bad guys" partisan angle.  The degree to which the Democrats couldn't understand or didn't care about large parts of the country became a disaster for progressives.  I'd like to see one party or the other try to govern the whole country, not just the parts that have bought into their particular scheme.

Policies have results, and the results of the policies followed in the red states are generally not good for them. So I don't think it's a matter of telling people what they think, or pretending that I'm inherently better because of what I think. The best policies generally work best for everyone. There are different needs in different places too, so when people seek the proper balance, it can be achieved. Right now, no, the Republicans are not seeking it. What would be helpful, is if they would take the time to understand what the people need. It's quite possible for people to do that; it's just not being done right now in those states. To depend on the police for social work, is not helpful, according to many witnesses I've heard who live and work in those areas. 

If the people can't vote correctly, they bring the disaster upon themselves, and to a large degree, upon all of us.

[Eric the Green]

(11-27-2016, 11:20 AM)Bronsin Wrote: You know you're on the right side when the opposition is burning flags and mourning Castro.

I don't know what side that is, or whom the "opposition" is. Castro had his good point and bad points. But very few people here in the USA are naive about such a totally-controlled society and economy. It improved things in some ways, but since a mixed economy, not a totally-state controlled one, is best, according to liberals here in the USA, the Castro model is not what we recommend or aspire to.

[pbrower2a]

(11-27-2016, 11:20 AM)Bronsin Wrote: You know you're on the right side when the opposition is burning flags and mourning Castro.

Castro was, like most leaders, a mixture of good and evil. Driving out the American Mafia was a good thing. Installing a Scandinavian-style social welfare system but without a strong capitalist system to make it possible was sheer foolishness. Of course he was a dictator with a police state and mind-numbing propaganda. There have been leaders of pure evil, like Hitler, Pavelic, Szalasi, Rakosi, Amin, Pol Pot, Mengistu, etc. .... Castro isn't quite in that category. At least some people on the Right who have been stigmatized by the Far Left, like Ronald Reagan and Margaret Thatcher, at least don't have much blood on their hands.



Marxism-Leninism, including Castroism, is in part a moral appeal -- that mass suffering for the indulgence of a few is unconscionable. That it comes with a police state, numbing propaganda, pervasive regimentation, material scarcity, and the absence of political choice discredits Marxism-Leninism, including Castro's variety. But should Donald Trump and his supporters 'give' us a police state, numbing propaganda, pervasive regimentation, material scarcity, and the absence of political choice in the name of "national greatness", then maybe there will be American exile communities elsewhere in the world in which people celebrate the death of someone who murdered American democracy.

Yes, I hope for the best, but this largely depends upon Donald Trump operating with a moral compass that he never showed during the 2016 election. Expecting a politician to become more humane and decent in office than he was in a campaign is like expecting a tiger to go vegetarian.

[Galen]

(11-27-2016, 11:20 AM)Bronsin Wrote: You know you're on the right side when the opposition is burning flags and mourning Castro.

Pretty much how I feel about it.  I bet Castro had a pretty large body count.

[Bob Butler 54]

(11-27-2016, 07:16 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(11-27-2016, 05:53 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(11-27-2016, 03:55 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: Indeed, at just the time when there was talk about the need for someone other than the police to be social workers in poor communities, the people of Galen's persuasion are back in power and able to cut off social services and education even more. What the right-wing wants is for the poor and people of color to suffer, apparently. They want them to rise up, and get themselves shot and jailed by racist police. They are not satisfied with 40 years of national decline; they want more and more.

There are racists and bad cops out there.  The entire Republican party, however, is not made up of racists and bad cops.  They just don't see as much of the problems we see in urban areas and don't want to spend a ton of money solving problems that they don't tend to see.

Thus, the above would be in some respects a vile stereotype, a slanderous negative image of those you disagree with.  To the degree you indulge yourself in such thinking and tell other people what they think, you aren't listening or growing.

The last election had both factions talking to their own bases in a "we're the good guys, they're the bad guys" partisan angle.  The degree to which the Democrats couldn't understand or didn't care about large parts of the country became a disaster for progressives.  I'd like to see one party or the other try to govern the whole country, not just the parts that have bought into their particular scheme.

Policies have results, and the results of the policies followed in the red states are generally not good for them. So I don't think it's a matter of telling people what they think, or pretending that I'm inherently better because of what I think. The best policies generally work best for everyone. There are different needs in different places too, so when people seek the proper balance, it can be achieved. Right now, no, the Republicans are not seeking it. What would be helpful, is if they would take the time to understand what the people need. It's quite possible for people to do that; it's just not being done right now in those states. To depend on the police for social work, is not helpful, according to many witnesses I've heard who live and work in those areas. 

If the people can't vote correctly, they bring the disaster upon themselves, and to a large degree, upon all of us.

When you say the entire right wing wants people of color to suffer, that they favor racist police shooting them, I believe you are unjustly smearing the right wing.  There are racists out there, sure, but few go to that extreme.  You have a vile hateful stereotype of the right and push it on us regularly.  Your telling the people of the right how hatefully they think is not going to do anything to improve communication.  As a contributor to this board, pushing hate and stereotypes really only messes up the board, poisoning the conversation.  Professional Democratic politicians seldom get as blatant as you.  They need to be even more careful to avoid painting with too broad and too ugly a brush.

I certainly agree there are different needs in different places, but don't see the Republicans as being the only party that focuses on their base and familiar territory to the point of disregarding the opposites.  The Democrats might want to brush up on farm policy as a start, and lighten up on forcing urban solutions on rural areas.  In general, living in a suburban environment, I'm sympathetic with many Democratic solutions.  I remain more open, however, to how others want to spend less, be less coerced, and not have to endure the government doing stuff 'for' them or to them they don't want or need.

Gore might have lost the presidency due to his strong position on guns.  Quite a few Democrats learned from that, are doing fewer calls for prohibition of this gun or that feature, pushing more to close loopholes that allow criminals and mentally deficient to obtain weapons.  An awful lot on the right may not have noticed.  Trump would repeat that Hillary would 'gut' the Second Amendment, while she repeated she is a loophole closer, and it seems an awful lot of Trump supporters were ready to believe Trump's lies.

Still, taking the other guy's needs and wants seriously might still get one more support from the other guys.  Not insulting and stereotyping the other guys might get one more support from the other guys.  Telling this to an extreme partisan might be quite futile.  Repeating the blatantly obvious shouldn't be necessary.  Still, here we are.

[Bob Butler 54]

(11-27-2016, 09:34 PM)pbrower2a Wrote:

(11-27-2016, 11:20 AM)Bronsin Wrote: You know you're on the right side when the opposition is burning flags and mourning Castro.

Marxism-Leninism, including Castroism, is in part a moral appeal -- that mass suffering for the indulgence of a few is unconscionable. That it comes with a police state, numbing propaganda, pervasive regimentation, material scarcity, and the absence of political choice discredits Marxism-Leninism, including Castro's variety. But should Donald Trump and his supporters 'give' us a police state, numbing propaganda, pervasive regimentation, material scarcity, and the absence of political choice in the name of "national greatness", then maybe there will be American exile communities elsewhere in the world in which people celebrate the death of someone who murdered American democracy.

Yes, I hope for the best, but this largely depends upon Donald Trump operating with a moral compass that he never showed during the 2016 election. Expecting a politician to become more humane and decent in office than he was in a campaign is like expecting a tiger to go vegetarian.

For the record, I'm not mourning Castro.

In my exchanges with Kinser during his Marxist phase, I repeated often my feeling that the followers of Marx replace one group of ruling elites with no check on their power with another.  Castro would be no exception.  At least, I envision Castro as the typical communist leader riding in fancy cars, not going hungry, and having access to good medical care, while his people are treated less well.

Trump?  He rides in fancy cars and planes, doesn't go hungry and has good access to medical care too.  How proactively will he take health care away from the poor?  How active will he be in further increasing the division of wealth?  While I'm dubious that another round of borrow and spend trickle down will have a different long term result than Bush 43's, I don't think Trump will produce an economy as bad as Cuba's under Castro.  Pushing Trump = Castro is a bit much for me, but I'm not expecting a vegetarian tiger either.

[Bob Butler 54]

Just to confirm there are racists out there,  CNN reports that California mosques are receiving hate letters.

CNN Wrote:The author addressed the letter "to the children of Satan" and called Muslims "a vile and filthy people."

"There's a new sheriff in town," the letter said, "President Donald Trump."

An anonymous group calling itself "Americans for a Better Way" has sent a letter to at least three California mosques, according to the Council for Islamic Relations (CAIR), a Muslim advocacy group.

"He's going to do to you Muslims what Hitler did to the jews [sic]," the letter said. "You muslims [sic] would be wise to pack your bags and get out of Dodge."

Now, Trump isn't as blatant and open in his hate as this guy, but is clear that some of the deplorables are interpreting him as green lighting this sort of stuff.

[Odin]

(11-28-2016, 02:46 AM)Galen Wrote:

(11-27-2016, 11:20 AM)Bronsin Wrote: You know you're on the right side when the opposition is burning flags and mourning Castro.

Pretty much how I feel about it.  I bet Castro had a pretty large body count.

Capitalism has a pretty large body count.

[Odin]

(11-28-2016, 08:03 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: Just to confirm there are racists out there,  CNN reports that California mosques are receiving hate letters.

CNN Wrote:The author addressed the letter "to the children of Satan" and called Muslims "a vile and filthy people."

"There's a new sheriff in town," the letter said, "President Donald Trump."

An anonymous group calling itself "Americans for a Better Way" has sent a letter to at least three California mosques, according to the Council for Islamic Relations (CAIR), a Muslim advocacy group.

"He's going to do to you Muslims what Hitler did to the jews [sic]," the letter said. "You muslims [sic] would be wise to pack your bags and get out of Dodge."

Now, Trump isn't as blatant and open in his hate as this guy, but is clear that some of the deplorables are interpreting him as green lighting this sort of stuff.

And the Trump supporters are in complete denial mode and are claiming the letters were planted by liberals to make God-Emperor Trump look bad, I shit you not.

[Bob Butler 54]

(11-28-2016, 08:05 AM)Odin Wrote:

(11-28-2016, 02:46 AM)Galen Wrote:

(11-27-2016, 11:20 AM)Bronsin Wrote: You know you're on the right side when the opposition is burning flags and mourning Castro.

Pretty much how I feel about it.  I bet Castro had a pretty large body count.

Capitalism has a pretty large body count.

The Fascists, kings and other communist leaders also had a large body count.  Just to compare and contrast, who doesn't have a large body count?  The Eskimos live in a very resource poor environment.  They have never had the surplus resources and population for warfare and genocide.  There are other cultures in similar situations that haven't large body counts.

But to compare and contrast, would anyone care to suggest a few recent cultures or government styles that don't tend to run up body counts?

[Odin]

(11-28-2016, 08:11 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(11-28-2016, 08:05 AM)Odin Wrote:

(11-28-2016, 02:46 AM)Galen Wrote:

(11-27-2016, 11:20 AM)Bronsin Wrote: You know you're on the right side when the opposition is burning flags and mourning Castro.

Pretty much how I feel about it.  I bet Castro had a pretty large body count.

Capitalism has a pretty large body count.

The Fascists, kings and other communist leaders also had a large body count.  Just to compare and contrast, who doesn't have a large body count?  The Eskimos live in a very resource poor environment.  They have never had the surplus resources and population for warfare and genocide.  There are other cultures in similar situations that haven't large body counts.

But to compare and contrast, would anyone care to suggest a few recent cultures or government styles that don't tend to run up body counts?

Yeah, fair enough. I just find it hypocritical for us bashing a left-wing dictator when the US has propped up so many brutal right-wing dictators like Pinochet.