If The Russians Engineered a Trump Victory

[Bob Butler 54]

(03-29-2017, 02:12 PM)Kinser79 Wrote: As to non-Americans or those who feel they are not Americans.  I hold the view of Theodore Roosevelt.  I have no time for hypenated Americans.

T.R. Wrote:What is true of creed is no less true of nationality. There is no room in this country for hyphenated Americanism. When I refer to hyphenated Americans, I do not refer to naturalized Americans. Some of the very best Americans I have ever known were naturalized Americans, Americans born abroad. But a hyphenated American is not an American at all. This is just as true of the man who puts “native” before the hyphen as of the man who puts German or Irish or English or French before the hyphen. Americanism is a matter of the spirit and of the soul. Our allegiance must be purely to the United States. We must unsparingly condemn any man who holds any other allegiance. But if he is heartily and singly loyal to this Republic, then no matter where he was born, he is just as good an American as any one else.

The one absolutely certain way of bringing this nation to ruin, of preventing all possibility of its continuing to be a nation at all, would be to permit it to become a tangle of squabbling nationalities, an intricate knot of German-Americans, Irish-Americans, English-Americans, French-Americans, Scandinavian-Americans or Italian-Americans, each preserving its separate nationality, each at heart feeling more sympathy with Europeans of that nationality, than with the other citizens of the American Republic. The men who do not become Americans and nothing else are hyphenated Americans; and there ought to be no room for them in this country. The man who calls himself an American citizen and who yet shows by his actions that he is primarily the citizen of a foreign land, plays a thoroughly mischievous part in the life of our body politic. He has no place here; and the sooner he returns to the land to which he feels his real heart-allegiance, the better it will be for every good American. There is no such thing as a hyphenated American who is a good American. The only man who is a good American is the man who is an American and nothing else.

I bit ago I reviewed some generalities about world views and values.  Most everyone can defend their own systems with logic, evidence and woo.  The logic often feels like convoluted doublethink.  The evidence often feels cherry picked and spun to death.  The woo is generally a child of the logic and evidence, but more poetic for lack of a better word.  What seems like nigh on holy high principle to one person feels like ugly garbage to someone else.

The TR quote might be an example of woo that feels holy to some, ugly to others.  TR...   Those were the days of manifest destiny, the white man's burden and Jim Crow.  There was a lot of pride in one's race and culture back then.  TR expressed it with his typical confidence and bombast.

I was into genealogy a while back.  I'm a pure bred mongrel.  I've got lines that trace back to France via Canada, to Norway, and many elsewheres.  The dominant best researched and documented branch, though, is original yankee on the south shore of Massachusetts.  I've got lots of ancestors who settled in Hingham MA.  The most famous landed in Plymouth in 1620, including Priscilla Mullens and John Alden.  I guess that makes me Anglo-American.

I guess I might take pride in my hyphenated past, perhaps enough to celebrate Thanksgiving with an extra spoon full of stuffing.  I don't think my heritage makes me superior to anyone else.  The hyphen doesn't make me want to see the US going into the Commonwealth, and let the queen to some of the ceremonial head of state stuff.  Thing is, I think those with Irish blood should feel as much pride and fun in celebrating St Patrick's day as I do Thanksgiving.  I'm pleased with the melting post aspect of America.  I eat Chinese food regularly enough, and Mexican.  I studied martial arts styles from both China and Japan.  A lot of cultures have contributed to what makes America great.  So long as they aren't practicing actual treason, it's all good.

I see the TR quote as garbage.  There is room for people to celebrate their heritage.  People were more into race and cultural prejudice back then.  I'm pleased to see that fading.  If privilege and prejudice can become more of the past, I'm good with that.

I kinda like TR as a historical figure, but he isn't one of my patron political saints.  I like Jefferson more.  He is one of my patron political saints.  Jefferson's self evident truths are my favorite bit of political woo.  Jefferson was also a slave holder.  I find it necessary and appropriate, when remembering great Americans of the past, to remember that parts of the past belong in the past.

Tribalism is part of humanity.  It is easy and natural to divide the world between 'us' and 'them' and treat 'them' poorly.  Meanwhile one's own tribe becomes a special bunch naturally destined to have a privileged place.  To me, if one has a conscience, if one cares about good over evil, tribalism is a character flaw to be striven against rather than a justification for treating people badly.  But that's woo.  It's an abstract moral principle.  I can say it and expect a smattering of approval and support, especially from among the blue leaning.

I expect it less from the red leaning.  To the degree that my expectations are met, I am disappointed in those who use race and culture to draw the us / them divide, and who actively promote privilege for their tribe while disparaging other tribes.

[Eric the Green]

An FBI official claims to have information that suggests collaboration between President Donald Trump's associates and Russian intelligence officials during the 2016 election, CNN reported Wednesday night.

The anonymous law enforcement official told the news outlet that FBI evidence shows "people connected to the campaign were in contact and it appeared they were giving the thumbs up to release information" in order to promote Trump and erode trust in Hillary Clinton's campaign.

Still, other agents said that the evidence in question was almost all circumstantial, which means that it cannot be used to make any conclusive suppositions.

FBI Director James Comey confirmed before Congress on Monday that the agency was investigating the Trump campaign's ties to Russia. This investigation includes reviewing travel, business, and phone, and in-person meeting records between Trump's inner circle and Russian intelligence officials, according to CNN.

US lawmakers or the intelligence community hadn't previously acknowledged having concrete evidence tying Trump or his associates to collusion with the Kremlin.

Rep. Adam Schiff, the California Democrat who is a ranking member of the House Intelligence Committee, which is also investigating the Trump-Russia connection, echoed the CNN report in an interview on MSNBC on Wednesday.

"There is more than circumstantial evidence now," Schiff said, declining to get into specifics. "I will say there is evidence that is not circumstantial, and it is very much worthy of investigation."

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/report-sug...hoofinance

[Bob Butler 54]

(03-30-2017, 09:59 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: An FBI official claims to have information that suggests collaboration between President Donald Trump's associates and Russian intelligence officials during the 2016 election, CNN reported Wednesday night...

After the Republicans did full court press on Hillary's e-mails, the Democrats are going to think pushing links to Russia is fair turnabout.  I think the country would do better not pushing scandal, and if possible avoiding behaviors that give the slightest opportunity for the other side to turn into a scandal.  Perhaps I should engage in a profound round of wishful thinking that this sort of thing will go away?

After all, wishful thinking is such a fine tool.

[David Horn]

(03-30-2017, 02:35 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(03-30-2017, 09:59 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: An FBI official claims to have information that suggests collaboration between President Donald Trump's associates and Russian intelligence officials during the 2016 election, CNN reported Wednesday night...

After the Republicans did full court press on Hillary's e-mails, the Democrats are going to think pushing links to Russia is fair turnabout.  I think the country would do better not pushing scandal, and if possible avoiding behaviors that give the slightest opportunity for the other side to turn into a scandal.  Perhaps I should engage in a profound round of wishful thinking that this sort of thing will go away?

After all, wishful thinking is such a fine tool.

If the Russia contacts were petty, I'll agree.  If not, then the quid pro quo simply isn't.  Collaborating with a known adversary is more than bad form, which is about the extent of the Hillary email issue.

[Ragnarök_62]

(08-23-2016, 08:44 PM)X_4AD_84 Wrote: The polls say otherwise but we cannot know what sorts of chicanery and intrigue may arise out of nowhere, when the Kremlin is directly interfering in a US election.

Thus far the interference has not risen to the level where the actual voting process is impaired, or, where a mass disinformation op throws a monkey wrench into the works very late in the campaign season.

I must wonder - if there were obvious major interference in the election, and, against all odds, it ended up installing Trump, how would the FBI, CIA and Military react?

My guess is there would be an armed struggle for power between the illegitimate Executive Branch and its "children" in those departments.

Into the chaos - Russia / the SCO may then try to do a sneak attack while we are caught up in a Civil War (but not one of the "Red" vs "Blue" variety - it would be one within the Executive Branch).

Or, Russia / the SCO would back the Trump faction and overtly install a puppet government atop the ashes of what used to be the legitimate US Government.

Boy, do I have news for you dude.  Russia has not advocated the break up of the United States but this EU guy has.  Fuck off EU.  Pull all  US forces out of Europe now.  Fuck you Druncker!





If the EU acts like this, eat shit and die.  Fund y'all own defense!  Death to NATO, death to the EU.

[Eric the Green]

I have a different reaction. Trump has supported the Europe breakup. And many of us don't like that. And many of us DO advocate, at least in our passionate moments, that the United States break up. Actually, it would be the more-constructive of the two possibilities. It's the USA that is stagnant and stalemated by the reactionary right wing, now ironically called "red." Red states and blue states are not something Europe is saddled with. They don't have red countries and blue countries. They are all progressive compared to us. We are saddled with a group of states and rural counties who believe that God created the world in 6 days, that the most important issue we face is abortion, that climate science is a hoax, that our "liberal and socialist" government destroys character and is trying to create a global dictatorship. We are saddled with a group of states that send people to congress whose only goal is to block anything and everything, even their own president's health plan, and who can't be worked or dealt with.

No, I think that guy should not eat shit and die; we need to pay attention to the fact that what's happening between Brexit and Trump is that the two nations that led the way toward a socially-responsible, democratic, diplomatic-minded alliance won't be there to defend it from the Putins, Dugins and Bannon/Mercers of the world, and is no longer upholding it. One pundit on Charlie Rose made that point last night, and it's well taken. The current right-wing "populist" trend is destructive and dangerous. It takes us away from progress; it's like what happened in the thirties. And if Le Pen wins, all bets are off for a sustainable and prosperous future. The only way this trend makes sense, is if the resistance to it triumphs in the end.

[Kinser79]

Bob, I'm not going to get into a long debate over what is and is not garbage. One either agrees with TR or one does not. I happen to agree with him.

As to regarding heritage. I'm fine with people eating their tacos, or their sauerkraut, and whatever other nonsense that they want to eat. I could care less if one celebrates Passover, or Easter or some Hindu holiday. That is not what is at contention with hyphenated Americans. What is at contention is where one's allegiance is. Ether one is aligned with the Republic or one is not. Anyone who is not 100% aligned with the Republic needs to go. I don't care if they were born in East Tumbleweed Iowa or Timbuktu. The country is not in the position to afford having fifth columns in it. That is the nature of 4Ts.

With reguard to morality--I find it impossible to expect one to care for those outside of one's own tribe if one doesn't care for those in one's own tribe. It is like expecting the man who lives in filth to be capable of cleaning an other's house. That being said if one wants to discuss who is and who is not drawing dividing lines among the American people on the basis of race, sex, sexuality and etc--one should be looking at the "blue team". I find it strange that the people who are supposedly fighting racism are obsessed with race.

WRT Jefferson--Yeah he gets a lot of press. Personally I prefer Adams. But if one wants to talk about imporant figures I'd put TR up there pretty highly along with Lincoln and Fredrick Douglas.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-ZblMfZpuw

An interesting video if you're so inclined.

[Bob Butler 54]

(03-30-2017, 09:53 PM)Kinser79 Wrote: Bob, I'm not going to get into a long debate over what is and is not garbage.  One either agrees with TR or one does not.  I happen to agree with him.

Yep.  Woo is subjective, emotional and values driven.  We've likely both made our point, with little to be gained by repeating it.

(03-30-2017, 09:53 PM)Kinser79 Wrote: As to regarding heritage.  I'm fine with people eating their tacos, or their sauerkraut, and whatever other nonsense that they want to eat.  I could care less if one celebrates Passover, or Easter or some Hindu holiday.  That is not what is at contention with hyphenated Americans.  What is at contention is where one's allegiance is.  Ether one is aligned with the Republic or one is not.  Anyone who is not 100% aligned with the Republic needs to go.  I don't care if they were born in East Tumbleweed Iowa or Timbuktu. The country is not in the position to afford having fifth columns in it.  That is the nature of 4Ts.

Show me some real fifth columns, and I'd be with you in defending against them.  The amount of emotional and political heat is way out of proportion with the threat.

(03-30-2017, 09:53 PM)Kinser79 Wrote: With reguard to morality--I find it impossible to expect one to care for those outside of one's own tribe if one doesn't care for those in one's own tribe.  It is like expecting the man who lives in filth to be capable of cleaning an other's house.  That being said if one wants to discuss who is and who is not drawing dividing lines among the American people on the basis of race, sex, sexuality and etc--one should be looking at the "blue team".  I find it strange that the people who are supposedly fighting racism are obsessed with race.

If one has a conscience, if one considers it important to erase lines, one has to be aware of the lines.

(03-30-2017, 09:53 PM)Kinser79 Wrote: WRT Jefferson--Yeah he gets a lot of press.  Personally I prefer Adams.  But if one wants to talk about imporant figures I'd put TR up there pretty highly along with Lincoln and Fredrick Douglas.

Honorable names, all.  I do like some of what TR did, including the Square Deal which was a prototype for FDR's New Deal.  I'm less enthusiastic for how he help shift US imperial expansionism away from pushing the native Americans around to entering the international stage.  Well, that was the times, I suppose.  Coal was driving the navies of the world.  If one was going to be a player one needed coaling stations.  He was a man if his times, but those times are gone.

[Kinser79]

(03-30-2017, 10:22 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: Show me some real fifth columns, and I'd be with you in defending against them.  The amount of emotional and political heat is way out of proportion with the threat.

BLM, SJWs, and the anti-Trump rioters. Where have you been for the last 4 years Bob?

BLM is a terrorist organization. (Note I say the same thing about the Klan, but the Klan is a lot less virulent these days.) SJWs are largely loud and stupid but they are overt political agitators. They should be glad I'm not President (I'd have them arrested and sent off to Camp Xray--even if I had to invent charges). And well Rioters are well rioters.

Again, where have you been?

Quote:If one has a conscience, if one considers it important to erase lines, one has to be aware of the lines.

I disagree. If one is going to be anti-racist, one has to start by not themselves being racist. It is just as easy to be racist against whites (trust me I know lots of people who hate whitey) as it is blacks or any other group. If one wants to stop racism, one stops it by not being racist themselves. The Jim Crow institutions are long dead. As I've pointed out several times if you have to go to black and white photos to make your point, it means it is irrelevant in the 21st century.

Quote:Honorable names, all.  I do like some of what TR did, including the Square Deal which was a prototype for FDR's New Deal.  I'm less enthusiastic for how he help shift US imperial expansionism away from pushing the native Americans around to entering the international stage.  Well, that was the times, I suppose.  Coal was driving the navies of the world.  If one was going to be a player one needed coaling stations.  He was a man if his times, but those times are gone.

I'm not keen on TR's imperial expansion but that has to do with the logic of violence and geopolitics of the era as well as the geographical situation the US finds itself in (which has not changed). Bordered on the north by a friendly nation without a military tradition, bordered on the south by a less than friendly nation with no military tradition, and on the east and west by fish.

As such the the US' defense priorities should be focused on the Navy (and more recently the Air Force). Of course during the time period this required coaling stations. That need has passed with the rise of nuclear propulsion.

[Ragnarök_62]

(03-30-2017, 08:37 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: I have a different reaction. Trump has supported the Europe breakup. And many of us don't like that. And many of us DO advocate, at least in our passionate moments, that the United States break up. Actually, it would be the more-constructive of the two possibilities. It's the USA that is stagnant and stalemated by the reactionary right wing, now ironically called "red." Red states and blue states are not something Europe is saddled with. They don't have red countries and blue countries. They are all progressive compared to us. We are saddled with a group of states and rural counties who believe that God created the world in 6 days, that the most important issue we face is abortion, that climate science is a hoax, that our "liberal and socialist" government destroys character and is trying to create a global dictatorship. We are saddled with a group of states that send people to congress whose only goal is to block anything and everything, even their own president's health plan, and who can't be worked or dealt with.

No, I think that guy should not eat shit and die; we need to pay attention to the fact that what's happening between Brexit and Trump is that the two nations that led the way toward a socially-responsible, democratic, diplomatic-minded alliance won't be there to defend it from the Putins, Dugins and Bannon/Mercers of the world, and is no longer upholding it. One pundit on Charlie Rose made that point last night, and it's well taken. The current right-wing "populist" trend is destructive and dangerous. It takes us away from progress; it's like what happened in the thirties. And if Le Pen wins, all bets are off for a sustainable and prosperous future. The only way this trend makes sense, is if the resistance to it triumphs in the end.

1. the Eurozone has has a different problem. It's composed of rich countries in the north and poorer countries near the Mediterranean Sea.  Greek folks are being robbed blind by the EU. Greece has for some reason, but most likely its elites in concert with the EU are the parties involved.  IOW, the EU is the debt collector for assorted Big Banking interests within the EU. That is despicable.  Any entity that is in league with banks is to be reviled. So you are correct, there is no red/blue divide, but rather a set of countries that are creditors [liked Germany] and debtor countries like Greece. Feel free to do an internet search on how Greece is getting robbed blind. So, do you support austerity? I don't Greece, for example should never have joined the EU.

2. US breakup:  Easy, Druncker is admitting EU interference in the domestic affair of the US.  Like I always say, nobody and nobody should be allowed to interfere in the internal affairs of any nation state. It is for that reason that I despise CIA meddling in ANY OTHER nations' internal affairs.

3. Btexit: The British people voted for Brexit. That's democracy. The will of the people should never, ever be dismissed. Great Britain is exercising democracy in action by the elected officials in leaving.

4. Dugan/Putin/Bannon:  OK, have you ever considered that this meme comes from the MIC?. The MIC is always looking for excuses to feather its nest. Here's the deal, Most European nations have a higher GDP/person than the US.;  I ask why should the we pay for Europe's defense? I think that's insane. The US needs to focus like a laser beam on fixing stuff right here.

5. Here's the other thing. I fear the MIC and their I-spy crap far more than Russia. I also fear ISP's selling my browsing history than Russia.  Folks who sell my internet data are just... plain... evil. Sorry. And, let me say,to  you the defense extremism for defense of internet privacy is no vice and moderation in the pursuit of internet pricacy is no virtue.

[Bob Butler 54]

The dictionary definition of fifth column is “a group within a country at war who are sympathetic to or working for its enemies.”  As we’re not at war, as the groups you mention are concerned with domestic issues, I’m inclined to say you are totally abusing the phrase ‘fifth column’.    This is typical of extreme partisans, along the lines of claiming all Republicans are Fascists.  If one redefines a word, one can apply it to all sorts of people, but in the process the word loses any meaning.  I'll insist that you are neither Noah Webster or Humpty Dumpty, free to mangle the English language with impunity.

Certainly, we're not going to eliminate the BLM movement by preventing Muslim immigration.

OK.  Perhaps I am a bit out of touch.  My first question was whether the Bureau of Land Management was really a terrorist organization?

If one’s primary method of fighting racism is to not become a racist, one is supporting the continued existence of the status quo.  I consider this to be an example of extreme partisan double think.  You seem to have been able to convince yourself given your selfish values, but anyone with a conscience isn’t apt to buy it.

(03-30-2017, 10:44 PM)Kinser79 Wrote: I'm not keen on TR's imperial expansion but that has to do with the logic of violence and geopolitics of the era as well as the geographical situation the US finds itself in (which has not changed).  Bordered on the north by a friendly nation without a military tradition, bordered on the south by a less than friendly nation with no military tradition, and on the east and west by fish.

As such the the US' defense priorities should be focused on the Navy (and more recently the Air Force).  Of course during the time period this required coaling stations.  That need has passed with the rise of nuclear propulsion.

In general I'm somewhat sympathetic with much of the above.  I'd note, though, that most of the navy still runs on oil.  We still have a wide net of bases and a lot of tanker ships.  The politics of having a network of naval bases all over the world hasn't really gone away, but most folks don't seem too upset about the status quo.  (The locals of Okinawa are one exception.  I'm sure there are others.)

I'd also note we don't have a defensive navy.  We have a navy designed to project power far abroad.  We want a capability of fighting and supplying a conflict anywhere in the world that has access to the ocean.  This has been a useful geopolitical tool, but I think it prudent to keep track of how it is used.  Powell's Questions, rah rah rah.

[Kinser79]

Bob, I'd say you're very out of touch. I strongly suspect an internal conflict. Also BLM does not mean Bureau of Land Management. I can't tell if you're genuinely confused or being intentionally obtuse (the latter of which I expect of Eric rather than you which is why my patience for him is about as long as the length of rope it would take to properly hang him on the short drop); as to Black Lives Matter (which itself implies that the lives of non-blacks do not matter) is a racist and terrorist organization. Out of the tens of thousands of blacks killed in the last decade over 90% of them have been killed by other black people--and largely other black people also involved in gang related or drugs related crime. Instead this organization is overtly attacking police.

I would say that the status quo is a country that elected a black man to the highest office twice. If the whole country is one giant Klan Rally explain to me how a <N> got elected what is essentially the position of Imperial Wizard. The idea that there is a racist status quo is absurd, which is why the Regressive Left looks for and manufactures incidents--they suffer from a shortage of racism. In all honestly most people are simply too lazy to be racist.

WRT Bases and the Navy. The navy is at such a point that we could through a combination of ship tenders and naval bases supplied by allies cover the globe, even on an oil based fleet. The diesel engines of today are far more fuel efficient than the coal fired steam engines of yesteryear.

As to the navy being defensive: The best way for a navy to be defensive is to be able to project offensive power anywhere in the world at any time. I would largely say where the Pentagon is going wrong in the imperial area is by having a huge army. States that have armies tend to want to use them. I instead favor a US based, primarily defensive professional land force--which of course can be augmented with conscription should anyone be foolish enough to mess with a nuclear power that has already demonstrated once it has no problem irradiating its enemies.

As to Okinawa, I couldn't really tell you, I was only in the Pacific on my maiden cruise and wasn't there long enough to draw liberty never mind leave. I did however draw quite a bit of leave in the UK and Europe.

[Eric the Green]

(03-30-2017, 11:58 PM)Ragnarök_62 Wrote:

(03-30-2017, 08:37 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: I have a different reaction. Trump has supported the Europe breakup. And many of us don't like that. And many of us DO advocate, at least in our passionate moments, that the United States break up. Actually, it would be the more-constructive of the two possibilities. It's the USA that is stagnant and stalemated by the reactionary right wing, now ironically called "red." Red states and blue states are not something Europe is saddled with. They don't have red countries and blue countries. They are all progressive compared to us. We are saddled with a group of states and rural counties who believe that God created the world in 6 days, that the most important issue we face is abortion, that climate science is a hoax, that our "liberal and socialist" government destroys character and is trying to create a global dictatorship. We are saddled with a group of states that send people to congress whose only goal is to block anything and everything, even their own president's health plan, and who can't be worked or dealt with.

No, I think that guy should not eat shit and die; we need to pay attention to the fact that what's happening between Brexit and Trump is that the two nations that led the way toward a socially-responsible, democratic, diplomatic-minded alliance won't be there to defend it from the Putins, Dugins and Bannon/Mercers of the world, and is no longer upholding it. One pundit on Charlie Rose made that point last night, and it's well taken. The current right-wing "populist" trend is destructive and dangerous. It takes us away from progress; it's like what happened in the thirties. And if Le Pen wins, all bets are off for a sustainable and prosperous future. The only way this trend makes sense, is if the resistance to it triumphs in the end.

1. the Eurozone has has a different problem. It's composed of rich countries in the north and poorer countries near the Mediterranean Sea.  Greek folks are being robbed blind by the EU. Greece has for some reason, but most likely its elites in concert with the EU are the parties involved.  IOW, the EU is the debt collector for assorted Big Banking interests within the EU. That is despicable.  Any entity that is in league with banks is to be reviled. So you are correct, there is no red/blue divide, but rather a set of countries that are creditors [liked Germany] and debtor countries like Greece. Feel free to do an internet search on how Greece is getting robbed blind. So, do you support austerity? I don't Greece, for example should never have joined the EU.

OK, your bipolar flare-up is over; a thoughtful post. Congratulations!

Greece is not clamouring to leave the EU. Merkel and Co. had to craft a balancing act between making Greece get itself solvent and helping it out. I think austerity was too strict, and that the EU needed more stimulus. As inadequate as Obama's stimulus was for the USA, at least we got one before the Repugs stopped it. AND, we have the FED, which further stimulated us out of depression, and THEY did not yet. They do have banks, of course, which helped cause the mess, and no I don't trust them. The EU should make them pay more taxes, and since these nations are progressive, maybe they are, or will; far more than the USA does with its Repugs who want to repeal Dodd-Frank. Greece also seems to have its own problem with its own rich hogs, and despite electing a socialistic government, seems not to be dealing with this.

Quote:2. US breakup:  Easy, Druncker is admitting EU interference in the domestic affair of the US.  Like I always say, nobody and nobody should be allowed to interfere in the internal affairs of any nation state. It is for that reason that I despise CIA meddling in ANY OTHER nations' internal affairs.

I don't consider expressing a point of view to be meddling. People are and should be free to express their minds in the supposedly free society. If we don't like it, toughee. Putin's is not a free society, so he was free himself to retaliate against Hillary for speaking her mind about his oligarchic disaster. And I am too. Putin's Russia is an oligarchic disaster, and the Russians should overthrow it or break it up.

Quote:3. Btexit: The British people voted for Brexit. That's democracy. The will of the people should never, ever be dismissed. Great Britain is exercising democracy in action by the elected officials in leaving.

And I hope Blair can get another referendum going, so the British can correct their mistake.

Quote:4. Dugan/Putin/Bannon:  OK, have you ever considered that this meme comes from the MIC?. The MIC is always looking for excuses to feather its nest. Here's the deal, Most European nations have a higher GDP/person than the US.;  I ask why should the we pay for Europe's defense? I think that's insane. The US needs to focus like a laser beam on fixing stuff right here.

Except that Bannon IS right here, and HE's what needs to be fixed. A pox on both the Duginists and the MIC. Neither are memes, and neither is Mercer; they are threats to our democracy and our sustainability as a nation and a planet.

Quote:5. Here's the other thing. I fear the MIC and their I-spy crap far more than Russia. I also fear ISP's selling my browsing history than Russia.  Folks who sell my internet data are just... plain... evil. Sorry. And, let me say, to  you the defense extremism for defense of internet privacy is no vice and moderation in the pursuit of internet privacy is no virtue.

OK Barry, but "I would remind you" that Goldwater didn't get too far with that impressive line that expressed his intense Mars in Scorpio rising. I say, America first. Fear the Russians more than our own spies. Or better yet, fear them both in equal measure, enough to crack down on their abuses.

And with the abundance of evil in our new administration and congress, internet privacy is not at the top of my list of worries. But I hope this invasion is stopped; no telling where it might lead. If it arouses more people against the orange menace, so much the better. The Orange Menace and Co. also want to reduce our internet speed by letting big business have special internet privileges (abolishing internet neutrality). That will adversely affect me more, I believe. Internet companies already know what sites I visit, and recommend sites to me. If it goes no further than that, it's actually a convenience. But, of course, where greed is concerned, our American business interests are always likely to go further in the wrong directions unless stopped.

According to one report, though, GE is asking its fellow corporations to resist Drump's war on the environment, saying it's bad for business and that we need the alternatives to the fossil fuels. So, maybe as Mr. Summers recommends, some of Drump/Bannon's beloved "free enterprise" companies will exert some positive influence in favor of a modicum of common sense. It would be nice. Even corporations have some actual people in them, or so it seems.

[Bob Butler 54]

My first reading of your few notes back I really didn’t recognize the ‘BLM’ initials.  The first entry popping up on my first internet search really was the home page for the Bureau of Land Management.  Now, that BLM really is involved in some controversy.  Some conservatives out west think public lands should be exploited by locals rather than conserved by city slickers way back east.  Some of these conservatives are armed and organized in the style of the ‘militia’ groups.  Every once in a while, they put their foot down and reject the policies of that other ‘BLM’.  Now, that BLM isn’t a bunch of armed goons.  If they have a problem, they will generally call in Federal Marshals, the FBI, the BATF, or whomever.  For some reason, even if they are part of a controversy, I really had a problem turning them into a terrorist organization.

So I widened the search.  Wiki’s BLM disambiguation page had a bunch of suggestions.  I quickly guessed you were talking about the #4 BLM.

Wiki Wrote:BLM may refer to:
• Bergbahn Lauterbrunnen-Mürren, a railway line in Switzerland
• Biotic Ligand Model, toxicology tool
• Black lipid membranes
• Black Lives Matter, an activist movement
• Bleed Like Me, a 2005 album by Garbage
• BLM Heliport
• BLM (law firm)
• Bloom syndrome protein
• Blue Lives Matter, a pro-police movement in the United States
• Braunschweigisches Landesmuseum, a history museum in Brunswick, Germany
• Bureau of Land Management, US federal government agency
• Monmouth Executive Airport's IATA code
• Saint Barthélemy's ISO 3166-1 alpha-3 country code

Now, I don’t consider Black Lives Matter to be a terrorist group or fifth column working for a foreign country.  They see a very real domestic problem and organize non violent protests.  Some cops are just more afraid of black people than others folks, and are trained that when they fear for their lives to use lethal force.  They need better training.  Cops who are particularly fearful or prejudiced ought to be taken off the streets.  Yes, I can understand that if both hands aren’t in plain sight cops will get nervous, but if you ask for an ID and they reach for their wallets, this shouldn’t be a death sentence.

I don’t really like the term ‘lone nut’.  However, any social issue that draws a large bunch of protesters might well draw in someone far more ready to use violence than the majority of the movement.  Yes, there are a few shooters concerned about the same issues as BLM.  One might reasonably call these few shooters terrorists.

But the primary BLM organization is not a terrorist group.  They organize non-violent protests.  They are certainly not working for the benefit of a foreign power, thus shouldn’t be described as a fifth column.

Now, you repeatedly asked where I have been.  I’ve been in reality.  I’ve been speaking English.  In the world you seem to be living in, words take on all sorts of weird meanings and vile stereotypes are applied freely and widely.  I expect this of extreme partisans.  They will typically twist and distort their vision of reality to support their strange perspectives.

A bit ago, Eric suggested that everything you say is wrong.  Pot, kettle.  Kettle, pot.  Black.  You both live in strange alternate worlds.  The difference is that Eric seems to be starting to be aware of it.

[Kinser79]

There's one problem with your theory. They don't organize peaceful protests. Were it merely that they would merely be annoying. BLM mostly instigates riots and anti-police crime. As for the police themselves statistics indicate that they are prejudiced against shooting blacks in proportion to the rate at which that race commits crimes--particularly violent crime. Remember Blacks are 13% of the population but commit half the murders and robberies.

I would also indicate again that the main cause of unnatural death amongst blacks is in fact being killed by other non-police black people. If one wants to save black lives, black people should start by not killing each other. In the words of RuPaul "If you don't love yourself how the hell you gonna love anyone else?". Black on black crime is real and a serious issue but since it doesn't fit the hate the white man narrative BLM isn't interested.

I'm not so sure you do live in the real world. If all you do is watch the Tee-Vee "news" then you're not well informed. Seriously you've tried to claim that rioters are peacefully protesting. This is not a lone nut activity--violence is actively encouraged in their circles. I should know as I was initially drawn to them myself, for pretty obvious reasons.

[pbrower2a]

(03-31-2017, 04:44 PM)Kinser79 (to Bob Butler) Wrote: There's one problem with your theory.  They don't organize peaceful protests.  Were it merely that they would merely be annoying.  BLM mostly instigates riots and anti-police crime.  As for the police themselves statistics indicate that they are prejudiced against shooting blacks in proportion to the rate at which that race commits crimes--particularly violent crime.  Remember Blacks are 13% of the population but commit half the murders and robberies.

"Black lives matter"... or we all have a problem. That includes me, someone who could hardly be "whiter". A nasty society in which to live for any large population -- and that includes poor whites, too -- makes life more precarious for us all. Note that I did not say that violent criminals who happen to be black need a "get away from the consequences" card because some of their ancestors were slaves. Pull a gun on a cop and die, especially when the cops have body armor and almost invariably get the second shot with a more lethal aim. One reason for criminal homicides going down is that the cops now survive felonious assaults and those who commit those felonious assaults never make it to jail or the courtroom, let alone the execution chamber.

By the way -- I have a suggestion for solving many of the problems of any oppressed people in America -- more rigorous, effective schooling. If it works for middle-class people of every ethnic group in America, then why can't it work for...

Yes, parents must turn off the Idiot Screen and the video games.

Quote:I would also indicate again that the main cause of unnatural death amongst blacks is in fact being killed by other non-police black people.  If one wants to save black lives, black people should start by not killing each other.  In the words of RuPaul "If you don't love yourself how the hell you gonna love anyone else?".  Black on black crime is real and a serious issue but since it doesn't fit the hate the white man narrative BLM isn't interested.

What if I told you that white people use more drugs, use worse drugs, and get away with them longer? OK, whatever one's ethnicity, poverty makes life far harder and personal decisions more difficult. I recall seeing a study in which much murder was over money. Middle-class people burned for $20 simply abandon their losses if they can't get them corrected.  For them, $20 is easy to come by. Poor people were more likely to act violently to being burned. Tellingly, middle-class people asked to draw dollar bills drew them at the right size. Poorer people tended to draw them bigger than they really are.

Quote: If all you do is watch the Tee-Vee "news" then you're not well informed.  Seriously you've tried to claim that rioters are peacefully protesting.  This is not a lone nut activity--violence is actively encouraged in their circles.  I should know as I was initially drawn to them myself, for pretty obvious reasons.

Back when people respected TV news, even Walter Cronkite suggested that to get more complete news, read a newspaper. Yes, the thirty-minute evening news program is limited in value: first it is only about twenty minutes of news (the rest of the time is advertising) that has limited time for any one news story. PBS News Hour has no such problem; it has no advertising, and it can treat any news item with a few sentences or thirty minutes if necessary. Twelve minutes on a nightly news show? That might stretch time between commercial breaks. CNN, MSNBC, and FoX News Channel can do that, at least potentially... CNN is often fluff, and MSNBC and FoX News have their biases.

[Eric the Green]

It is amazing that a black person could be that mis-informed about the activities of black lives matter.

[Kinser79]

(03-31-2017, 11:58 PM)pbrower2a Wrote:

(03-31-2017, 04:44 PM)Kinser79 (to Bob Butler) Wrote: There's one problem with your theory.  They don't organize peaceful protests.  Were it merely that they would merely be annoying.  BLM mostly instigates riots and anti-police crime.  As for the police themselves statistics indicate that they are prejudiced against shooting blacks in proportion to the rate at which that race commits crimes--particularly violent crime.  Remember Blacks are 13% of the population but commit half the murders and robberies.

"Black lives matter"... or we all have a problem. That includes me, someone who could hardly be "whiter". A nasty society in which to live for any large population -- and that includes poor whites, too -- makes life more precarious for us all. Note that I did not say that violent criminals who happen to be black need a "get away from the consequences" card because some of their ancestors were slaves. Pull a gun on a cop and die, especially when the cops have body armor and almost invariably get the second shot with a more lethal aim. One reason for criminal homicides going down is that the cops now survive felonious assaults and those who commit those felonious assaults never make it to jail or the courtroom, let alone the execution chamber.

By the way -- I have a suggestion for solving many of the problems of any oppressed people in America -- more rigorous, effective schooling. If it works for middle-class people of every ethnic group in America, then why can;t it work for...

Yes, parents must turn off the Idiot Screen and the video games.

The Tee-Vee is a dead medium PBR. As for video games there is no concrete linkage between them and increased violence or sexism--but it is up to parents to set priories until such time as their children are capable of doing that themselves.

As to the matter with the organization known as "Black Lives Matter" (who is whom I'm referring to when I say BLM--unless I indicate otherwise) the problem is that they are calling for the removal of police from the very streets on which black people live. I don't know what you know about crime, but criminals rarely commit said crimes right in front of the police (unless they are stupid) so removing them from our neighborhoods might reduce the extremely small numbers of people shot by police it will increase crime. Crime breeds poverty which breeds more crime.

Quote:

Quote:I would also indicate again that the main cause of unnatural death amongst blacks is in fact being killed by other non-police black people.  If one wants to save black lives, black people should start by not killing each other.  In the words of RuPaul "If you don't love yourself how the hell you gonna love anyone else?".  Black on black crime is real and a serious issue but since it doesn't fit the hate the white man narrative BLM isn't interested.

What if I told you that white people use more drugs, use worse drugs, and get away with them longer?

So what? It would seem to indicate to me that whites might have several factors going for them that blacks don't. A greater proportion not actively poor (it is easier for a richer person to maintain an Oxy habit than it is for a poor one to maintain a crack habit--such is the difference between being richer and poorer), a lower propensity to act the fool while on drugs or trying to obtain drugs (I don't subscribe to the anti-scientific notion that evolution stopped below the neck in humans) regardless of class.

But all of that seems to indicate to me that is a failure of the War on Drugs. It seems to me that gangs and so on would have a harder time shooting each other up over the crack spot if one can go down to their local Walgreens and get all the base they need, and at a higher purity and cheaper price. What drives gang violence is the profit to be made over the drugs trade, a trade created by prohibition--amazingly something that hurt the Mafia far more than RICO ever could was the repeal of the 18th amendment.

Quote: OK, whatever one's ethnicity, poverty makes life far harder and personal decisions more difficult. I recall seeing a study in which much murder was over money. Middle-class people burned for $20 simply abandon their losses if they can't get them corrected.  For them, $20 is easy to come by. Poor people were more likely to act violently to being burned. Tellingly, middle-class people asked to draw dollar bills drew them at the right size. Poorer people tended to draw them bigger than they really are.

I have no solution to the class problem other than to increase police presence and liberalize the availability of starting businesses. I've told people repeatedly if the black community wants to get out of poverty the solution isn't more welfare, the solution is to get a job, and if you can't find a job to make one up. Of course after that I'm told I'm an Uncle Tom and that I should stop "acting white".

I would argue that there is an other factor that Blacks have that whites don't. There is the whole "Thug Culture" thing. It literally takes the very worst aspects of a culture and promotes it. I'm going to refer again to Chris Rock's statements:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3PJF0YE-x4

Quote:<snip> Newspapers</snip>

I agree. Newspapers are superior to Tee-Vee news. It's a lot harder to wipe one's ass with a tee-vee.

[Bob Butler 54]

I seldom watch TV news and never buy newspapers.  I get news from the web.  As many of the web sites I visit also do broadcast or hardcopy, I don't think this a big deal.  The significant difference on the web is in picking up links to the fringe extreme sources.  Forums like this one do make available alternate perspectives.

But, you have to be a bit careful.  If you want to review Black Lives Matters's agenda and policies, you visit their web site rather than trust opinions of extreme partisans.  The web is full of a lot of garbage.

[pbrower2a]

(04-01-2017, 06:07 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: I seldom watch TV news and never buy newspapers.  I get news from the web.  As many of the web sites I visit also do broadcast or hardcopy, I don't think this a big deal.  The significant difference on the web is in picking up links to the fringe extreme sources.  Forums like this one do make available alternate perspectives.

But, you have to be a bit careful.  If you want to review Black Lives Matters' agenda and policies, you visit their web site rather than trust opinions of extreme partisans.  The web is full of a lot of garbage.

The Internet has allowed the proliferation of data without the building of wisdom necessary for judging the merit of what exists. One can find porn, racist garbage, links to totalitarian causes, the prosperity gospel, homophobia, quack medicine, and get-rich-quick schemes taking advantage of suckers on a scale impossible for the hucksters and shysters of the past to deal with. But fall for this stuff and you are a loser. Whether the Tsarnaev brothers, Dylann Roof, or Benjamin Nathaniel Smith one has plenty of opportunity for self-radicalization. With the radicalization that these four people got, the consequences for others is great personal tragedy. For themselves it was ruin. That's before I even discuss hucksters who offer legerdemain that says that you need not pay income or sales taxes or that some proprietary concoction of lemon, paprika, and honey will uniquely cure cancer (Accept no substitutes! A usual appeal of the medicine show of the 19th century). Yes, the Internet has a way of bringing back to life old ideas that most of us thought could never emerge from the grave of bad ideas.

People with the capacity to discern nonsense from reason are precious. The Internet has brought forth much of the same stupidity that many of us thought died a century ago. But that stuff lives.

I did check the website of Black Lives Matters. It looks much like a reversion to the Black Consciousness movements of the Awakening Era.
So white people aren't completely trustworthy with the obvious interests of black people? Nothing new there. Take care of yourselves because Whitey isn't your friend? Self-help, including the advocacy of starting businesses that 'Whitey' has no obvious role.

Don't fool yourself. White racism is real. I hear it often enough because many white people feel free to express it so long as there are no blacks around. It's ugly. It's much the same stuff as people said a century ago everywhere in America or fifty years ago in the South.

So why does it return from the dead? Because people stupefy themselves on brain-rot and soul-rot that emanates from the television, whether broadcast or from video devices. Human nature does not change. The Greek philosophers and the Hebrew prophets remain relevant because we have the same potential for crass stupidity and selfishness as ever. We transcend our worst lest we fall for the worst.