Presidential election, 2016

[Bob Butler 54]

(12-20-2016, 12:48 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: You are correct. I have an authoritarian's attitude like most American adults my age

Perhaps Red Americans. In the America I'm living in, I do not consider authoritarian attitudes common.

[Bob Butler 54]

(12-20-2016, 02:51 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: President-elect Donald J. Trump has claimed he won the electoral vote in a “landslide,” but he ranks below most presidents in the electoral vote and popular vote margins.

Somebody is confusing 'truth' and 'big lie'. I'm not quite sure who...

[Classic-Xer]

(12-20-2016, 07:49 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(12-20-2016, 02:51 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: President-elect Donald J. Trump has claimed he won the electoral vote in a “landslide,” but he ranks below most presidents in the electoral vote and popular vote margins.

Somebody is confusing 'truth' and 'big lie'.  I'm not quite sure who...

What would you call it if the situation was reversed? I'd call it and see it as a landslide victory regardless of who had won the election. As I've told you before, the term Democrat and the term Republican represent little value to me as an American voter.

[Warren Dew]

(12-20-2016, 02:51 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: President-elect Donald J. Trump has claimed he won the electoral vote in a “landslide,” but he ranks below most presidents in the electoral vote and popular vote margins.

Obama twice claimed landslides when he didn't get them, too.  It's become the norm for the president to claim a landslide, irrespective of the facts.

[Classic-Xer]

(12-20-2016, 08:01 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(12-20-2016, 05:51 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(12-20-2016, 12:48 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: You are correct. I have an authoritarian's attitude like most American adults my age

Perhaps Red Americans.  In the America I'm living in, I do not consider authoritarian attitudes common.

You don't possess the authority to make your own decisions and determine your own courses. Are you saying the absence of individual authority is now common where you're living or are you saying the people where you live don't really need government bosses/parents telling them what to do and how to think and what to believe in and so forth?

[Ragnarök_62]

Bob Butler 54 Wrote:All interesting conjecture, fodder for fun on the forum, but I suspect enough the electors will stay loyal to the will of the people to get Trump in.

Ding!  We have a winner as subsequent events have shown.


It's a nice calm time for Rags.   This is because Rags knows he can't change stuff.  If ya can't change it, don't fuss over it. All of the feathers have settled and the birds have flown south for the winter.   Just take a mental trip to a real swamp that's not drained.  Nope, drained swamps are dead swamps. We don't need no skinkin' drained swamps. Swamps hare vital habitat.








Let's all do as Eric sez to do in other thread, meditate to however you do it and peace out.





http://www.runestonereading.com/The%2DPeace%2DSign.html

Since the peace sign is a derivate of a rune, that means it's awesome. Yes, it's even more awesome than I ever thought  cause it's from a rune.

[Eric the Green]

(12-20-2016, 09:30 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(12-20-2016, 08:01 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(12-20-2016, 05:51 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(12-20-2016, 12:48 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: You are correct. I have an authoritarian's attitude like most American adults my age

Perhaps Red Americans.  In the America I'm living in, I do not consider authoritarian attitudes common.

You don't possess the authority to make your own decisions and determine your own courses. Are you saying the absence of individual authority is now common where you're living or are you saying the people where you live don't really need government bosses/parents telling them what to do and how to think and what to believe in and so forth?

In my experience, very few bosses are from the government, unless you run afoul of the law. "Bosses" mostly refers to businessmen. They tell us what to do in order to get the work from us they want.

Parents and teachers are authority figures for children, but they also, if they are good at what they do, encourage their children to find their own path and inner authority too. Religion is an authority for many people in Red America; science serves as such for many in Blue America, although both are accessible in both regions. Many people in both regions live within a media echo chamber.

People in deep blue states may tend to need less people "telling them what to do and how to think and what to believe in and so forth" than people in red states, as you describe yourself as needing in order to be an "adult." I would say on the contrary, the more adult you are, the less authority you need, and the less authoritarian you are.

[Eric the Green]

(12-20-2016, 09:14 PM)Warren Dew Wrote:

(12-20-2016, 02:51 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: President-elect Donald J. Trump has claimed he won the electoral vote in a “landslide,” but he ranks below most presidents in the electoral vote and popular vote margins.

Obama twice claimed landslides when he didn't get them, too.  It's become the norm for the president to claim a landslide, irrespective of the facts.

I don't think Obama claimed a landslide, and if he did, he is exaggerating. But it was a definitive victory; twice. The first time, more so. Trump did not only not get a landslide, as he claimed, he did not get a definitive win, and got no mandate at all.

[Bob Butler 54]

(12-20-2016, 07:21 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(12-20-2016, 07:49 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(12-20-2016, 02:51 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: President-elect Donald J. Trump has claimed he won the electoral vote in a “landslide,” but he ranks below most presidents in the electoral vote and popular vote margins.

Somebody is confusing 'truth' and 'big lie'.  I'm not quite sure who...

What would you call it if the situation was reversed? I'd call it and see it as a landslide victory regardless of who had won the election. As I've told you before, the term Democrat and the term Republican represent  little value to me as an American voter.

Nixon once took every state in the Union except Massachusetts.  That would seem to count as an electoral landslide.  Still proud to have been from Massachusetts that year.  Nixon was also forced to resign in disgrace.  Even a true landslide is an ephemeral thing if one hasn't got one's head on straight.  I'm not sure Trump's head is on straight.

We could hold a lengthy discussion on the meaning of the word 'landslide', I suppose.  If someone doesn't get a majority of the popular vote, I don't think the word should apply, but then I'm not Noah Webster or Humpty Dumpty.

But my concern is that if either party wins narrowly then tries to pretend that they had a landslide majority, a mandate, and tries to transform the culture as a result, they are riding for a fall.  Through the extended unravelling, since Nixon, the White House has swung back and forth with regularity.  Arguably, both sides are forcing extreme transformation on a lot of people who don't like the government forcing culture change, and both sides lose power at regular intervals as a result.  You understand quite well why the red folk are unhappy with a blue White House, but seem unable to comprehend that blue folk are equally happy a red White House, and with equally good reason.  Eric has the opposite biases.  Neither of you seems able to open minds sufficiently to comprehend the other, and you two are hardly alone.

From my point of view, Trump did not win a landslide, does not have a mandate for profound change.  If things had played different, if the FBI and/or Putin hadn't done their things, if severals states had gone the other way, Hillary's win wouldn't have been a landslide, a mandate either.

Not to say she wouldn't have tried to govern as if she had a mandate.

[Bob Butler 54]

(12-20-2016, 09:30 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(12-20-2016, 08:01 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(12-20-2016, 05:51 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(12-20-2016, 12:48 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: You are correct. I have an authoritarian's attitude like most American adults my age

Perhaps Red Americans.  In the America I'm living in, I do not consider authoritarian attitudes common.

You don't possess the authority to make your own decisions and determine your own courses. Are you saying the absence of individual authority is now common where you're living or are you saying the people where you live don't really need government bosses/parents telling them what to do and how to think and what to believe in and so forth?

In my work as a software engineer, I convinced my boss that the job of the boss was not to dictate, but to provide the tools and the environment to get the job done.  The technical decisions were made as a group consensus.  I had my say, everyone had their say, everyone had their turn at the white board.  It wasn't a matter of the the winner of the ego contest forcing their will.  It was a question of incorporating as many good ideas as possible.  The boss had been at it longer than the rest of us.  She was more aware of things that had gone wrong in the past.  She would typically have more influence than the rest of us.  Still, she generally wasn't arguing from authority, but from technical knowledge.

There are too many people in a town, a state or a country to work that way.  The egos involved are often bigger.  There is a perception on both the red and the blue side of one culture forcing itself on the other.

I am not as happy with using words like 'dictator', 'authoritarian' or 'demagogue' as other forum contributors.  I would freely use such words to describe people like Hitler or Stalin.  I would not use them to describe Obama or Trump.  At least, I'm not using such words now.  Talk to me about Trump in another year or three.  His personality makes me nervous.

But mostly, here in Massachusetts, retired, with my finances in pretty good shape, I'm just not feeling dictated upon.  I can do pretty much anything I care to do.  Nobody in government has really tried to clip my wings.  This doesn't mean I like borrow and spend trickle down economics, or that I approve of cops that feel free to shoot unarmed people of color.  The culture is anything but perfect.  There is need for improvement.

But the issues we discuss here aren't aimed directly at me.  The government is not forcing me to do anything I'm not content with, barring that no one is particularly eager to pay taxes.

Sure, there are people with strong values trying to tell me what to think.  You are one of them.  Freedom of speech is a wonderful thing.  Continue telling me what to think if you'd like.  But your sharing your opinions doesn't in the least twist my arms.  It is not a form of coercion.  If I do not recognize that you have any authority over my thoughts, how can I think you are an authoritarian?  You are just a guy with an opinion.  So is Trump.

[Classic-Xer]

(12-20-2016, 11:37 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(12-20-2016, 07:21 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(12-20-2016, 07:49 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(12-20-2016, 02:51 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: President-elect Donald J. Trump has claimed he won the electoral vote in a “landslide,” but he ranks below most presidents in the electoral vote and popular vote margins.

Somebody is confusing 'truth' and 'big lie'.  I'm not quite sure who...

What would you call it if the situation was reversed? I'd call it and see it as a landslide victory regardless of who had won the election. As I've told you before, the term Democrat and the term Republican represent  little value to me as an American voter.

Nixon once took every state in the Union except Massachusetts.  That would seem to count as an electoral landslide.  Still proud to have been from Massachusetts that year.  Nixon was also forced to resign in disgrace.  Even a true landslide is an ephemeral thing if one hasn't got one's head on straight.  I'm not sure Trump's head is on straight.

We could hold a lengthy discussion on the meaning of the word 'landslide', I suppose.  If someone doesn't get a majority of the popular vote, I don't think the word should apply, but then I'm not Noah Webster or Humpty Dumpty.

But my concern is that if either party wins narrowly then tries to pretend that they had a landslide majority, a mandate, and tries to transform the culture as a result, they are riding for a fall.  Through the extended unravelling, since Nixon, the White House has swung back and forth with regularity.  Arguably, both sides are forcing extreme transformation on a lot of people who don't like the government forcing culture change, and both sides lose power at regular intervals as a result.  You understand quite well why the red folk are unhappy with a blue White House, but seem unable to comprehend that blue folk are equally happy a red White House, and with equally good reason.  Eric has the opposite biases.  Neither of you seems able to open minds sufficiently to comprehend the other, and you two are hardly alone.

From my point of view, Trump did not win a landslide, does not have a mandate for profound change.  If things had played different, if the FBI and/or Putin hadn't done their things, if severals states had gone the other way, Hillary's win wouldn't have been a landslide, a mandate either.

Not to say she wouldn't have tried to govern as if she had a mandate.

Trump wasn't given a mandate to transform society anymore than Lincoln was given a mandate to transform society. Trump isn't a moral crusader like Lincoln was that's for sure. What's makes you think that I'm unable to comprehend that blues feel unhappy and uneasy when there's a red in the White House? I comprehend that just fine and even understand why that is to a certain degree.

[Odin]

(12-20-2016, 09:14 PM)Warren Dew Wrote:

(12-20-2016, 02:51 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: President-elect Donald J. Trump has claimed he won the electoral vote in a “landslide,” but he ranks below most presidents in the electoral vote and popular vote margins.

Obama twice claimed landslides when he didn't get them, too.  It's become the norm for the president to claim a landslide, irrespective of the facts.

2008 objectively was a landslide.

[Anthony '58]

Quote:I don't think Obama claimed a landslide, and if he did, he is exaggerating. But it was a definitive victory; twice. The first time, more so. Trump did not only not get a landslide, as he claimed, he did not get a definitive win, and got no mandate at all.

Not only that, but the Democrats with their 2.8 million popular vote win have a mandate to kill the Ryan plan's tax increases on the working poor - singles without children working full time at less than $10 an hour and the bottom 51% of all single parents - just as the Senate Democrats extorted a cut in the bottom income tax rate from 15% to 10% after another Republican President had lost the popular vote in 2000, and by over 2 million less than Trump lost it.

[Eric the Green]

(12-21-2016, 12:11 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(12-20-2016, 09:30 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(12-20-2016, 08:01 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(12-20-2016, 05:51 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(12-20-2016, 12:48 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: You are correct. I have an authoritarian's attitude like most American adults my age

Perhaps Red Americans.  In the America I'm living in, I do not consider authoritarian attitudes common.

You don't possess the authority to make your own decisions and determine your own courses. Are you saying the absence of individual authority is now common where you're living or are you saying the people where you live don't really need government bosses/parents telling them what to do and how to think and what to believe in and so forth?

In my work as a software engineer, I convinced my boss that the job of the boss was not to dictate, but to provide the tools and the environment to get the job done.  The technical decisions were made as a group consensus.  I had my say, everyone had their say, everyone had their turn at the white board.  It wasn't a matter of the the winner of the ego contest forcing their will.  It was a question of incorporating as many good ideas as possible.  The boss had been at it longer than the rest of us.  She was more aware of things that had gone wrong in the past.  She would typically have more influence than the rest of us.  Still, she generally wasn't arguing from authority, but from technical knowledge.

There are too many people in a town, a state or a country to work that way.  The egos involved are often bigger.  There is a perception on both the red and the blue side of one culture forcing itself on the other.

I am not as happy with using words like 'dictator', 'authoritarian' or 'demagogue' as other forum contributors.  I would freely use such words to describe people like Hitler or Stalin.  I would not use them to describe Obama or Trump.  At least, I'm not using such words now.  Talk to me about Trump in another year or three.  His personality makes me nervous.

But mostly, here in Massachusetts, retired, with my finances in pretty good shape, I'm just not feeling dictated upon.  I can do pretty much anything I care to do.  Nobody in government has really tried to clip my wings.  This doesn't mean I like borrow and spend trickle down economics, or that I approve of cops that feel free to shoot unarmed people of color.  The culture is anything but perfect.  There is need for improvement.

But the issues we discuss here aren't aimed directly at me.  The government is not forcing me to do anything I'm not content with, barring that no one is particularly eager to pay taxes.

Sure, there are people with strong values trying to tell me what to think.  You are one of them.  Freedom of speech is a wonderful thing.  Continue telling me what to think if you'd like.  But your sharing your opinions doesn't in the least twist my arms.  It is not a form of coercion.  If I do not recognize that you have any authority over my thoughts, how can I think you are an authoritarian?  You are just a guy with an opinion.  So is Trump.

I don't know if Trump is a dictator yet. I think he has impulses in that direction. As for demagogue, yes I think that applies perfectly to him. That term has more to do with how you campaign and appeal to the people, than with what actions you take in office.

[Eric the Green]

(12-20-2016, 09:45 PM)Ragnarök_62 Wrote:

Bob Butler 54 Wrote:All interesting conjecture, fodder for fun on the forum, but I suspect enough the electors will stay loyal to the will of the people to get Trump in.

Ding!  We have a winner as subsequent events have shown.


It's a nice calm time for Rags.   This is because Rags knows he can't change stuff.  If ya can't change it, don't fuss over it. All of the feathers have settled and the birds have flown south for the winter.   Just take a mental trip to a real swamp that's not drained.  Nope, drained swamps are dead swamps. We don't need no skinkin' drained swamps. Swamps hare vital habitat.








Let's all do as Eric sez to do in other thread, meditate to however you do it and peace out.





http://www.runestonereading.com/The%2DPeace%2DSign.html

Since the peace sign is a derivate of a rune, that means it's awesome. Yes, it's even more awesome than I ever thought  cause it's from a rune.

You have a nice suggestion there. Good pictures. Calm is good. Meditation; that's a good idea-- from that Eric guy, you say?

[Eric the Green]

Final Popular Vote Total Shows Hillary Clinton Won Almost 3 Million More Ballots Than Donald Trump
It’s by far the largest margin of victory in the popular vote for a candidate who did not win the election.
12/20/2016 05:31 pm ET

Nick Wing
Senior Viral Editor, The Huffington Post
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/hill...58648446c6

Donald Trump is set to be sworn in next month as the 45th president of the United States, despite garnering almost 3 million fewer votes than his challenger.

With the presidential election results now certified in all 50 states and Washington, D.C., Hillary Clinton won a total of 65,844,610 votes ― 48.2 percent ― compared with Trump’s 62,979,636 votes ― 46.1 percent ― according to David Wasserman of the nonpartisan Cook Political Report. Other candidates took 7,804,213 ballots, or about 5.7 percent of the popular vote.

Follow
Dave Wasserman ✔ @Redistrict
All 50 states + DC now certified:

Clinton: 65,844,610 (48.2%)
Trump: 62,979,636 (46.1%)
Others: 7,804,213 (5.7%)

Clinton’s margin of victory in the popular vote is the largest in raw numbers for any candidate who has gone on to lose in the Electoral College. Her margin of victory is almost six times larger than that of Democrat Al Gore, whose popular vote win in 2000 is now the second-largest in this category. Gore received about 500,000 more votes than Republican George W. Bush, but came up short in the Electoral College after a hotly contested race in Florida.

Trump’s substantial deficit in the popular vote makes his margin by percentage of votes the third-worst among winning candidates since 1824 (when the popular vote was first officially recorded), according to an analysis by The New York Times published earlier this week.

Thanks to the Electoral College, none of this matters. Trump won 306 electoral votes to Clinton’s 232 on Election Day, securing him a comfortable victory last month. Although many of Trump’s opponents had spent the past few weeks trying to figure out how they could deny the real estate mogul a path to the White House, the Electoral College on Monday further secured his win.

A total of 304 electors cast their votes in favor of the GOP nominee, meaning just two Republican electors defected. Some 227 cast their presidential ballots for Clinton, with five Democratic electors switching their vote. Those seven defecting electors voted for other candidates.

Trump’s team has tried to deflect focus away from the popular vote over the past month, with Trump himself even mentioning what he referred to as a “massive landslide victory” in the Electoral College. PolitiFact ruled that claim “false,” noting that Trump’s win ranks near the bottom in terms of the portion of total available electoral votes won by a candidate.

[pbrower2a]

(12-20-2016, 07:21 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(12-20-2016, 07:49 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(12-20-2016, 02:51 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: President-elect Donald J. Trump has claimed he won the electoral vote in a “landslide,” but he ranks below most presidents in the electoral vote and popular vote margins.

Somebody is confusing 'truth' and 'big lie'.  I'm not quite sure who...

What would you call it if the situation was reversed? I'd call it and see it as a landslide victory regardless of who had won the election. As I've told you before, the term Democrat and the term Republican represent  little value to me as an American voter.

We liberals would be humbled by our win and would be trying to make conservatives feel less bad about their loss. I wish I could tell you how I tried to console conservatives with the wins of my side. There would be no "Eat sh--!" talk on our part and no attempt to make people feel bad about themselves for voting 'wrong'. The campaign ends, and service to voters comes above partisan politics. We would expect conservatives to participate in the give-and-take of politics.

But there is no confusion. Republicans win the votes that mattered, and the only people who will now matter in our political order will be those who believe that no human suffering is in excess so long as they get everything that they can possibly get by command against people who can do nothing to stop them. By the  time that Donald Trump is through, America will be a wreck, the sort of place that has no immigration problem because it is no longer a country that people want to go to.


I expect to hate life. If I were thirty years younger I would emigrate. If Social Security and Medicare should disappear then I might as well take a Valium and vodka.

[Classic-Xer]

(12-23-2016, 06:50 PM)pbrower2a Wrote:

(12-20-2016, 07:21 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(12-20-2016, 07:49 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(12-20-2016, 02:51 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: President-elect Donald J. Trump has claimed he won the electoral vote in a “landslide,” but he ranks below most presidents in the electoral vote and popular vote margins.

Somebody is confusing 'truth' and 'big lie'.  I'm not quite sure who...

What would you call it if the situation was reversed? I'd call it and see it as a landslide victory regardless of who had won the election. As I've told you before, the term Democrat and the term Republican represent  little value to me as an American voter.

We liberals would be humbled by our win and would be trying to make conservatives feel less bad about their loss. I wish I could tell you how I tried to console conservatives with the wins of my side. There would be no "Eat sh--!" talk on our part and no attempt to make people feel bad about themselves for voting 'wrong'. The campaign ends, and service to voters comes above partisan politics. We would expect conservatives to participate in the give-and-take of politics.

But there is no confusion. Republicans win the votes that mattered, and the only people who will now matter in our political order will be those who believe that no human suffering is in excess so long as they get everything that they can possibly get by command against people who can do nothing to stop them. By the  time that Donald Trump is through, America will be a wreck, the sort of place that has no immigration problem because it is no longer a country that people want to go to.


I expect to hate life. If I were thirty years younger I would emigrate. If Social Security and Medicare should disappear then I might as well take a Valium and vodka.

The liberals rubbed it in our faces the last time.

[Eric the Green]

(12-23-2016, 09:07 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(12-23-2016, 06:50 PM)pbrower2a Wrote:

(12-20-2016, 07:21 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(12-20-2016, 07:49 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(12-20-2016, 02:51 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: President-elect Donald J. Trump has claimed he won the electoral vote in a “landslide,” but he ranks below most presidents in the electoral vote and popular vote margins.

Somebody is confusing 'truth' and 'big lie'.  I'm not quite sure who...

What would you call it if the situation was reversed? I'd call it and see it as a landslide victory regardless of who had won the election. As I've told you before, the term Democrat and the term Republican represent  little value to me as an American voter.

We liberals would be humbled by our win and would be trying to make conservatives feel less bad about their loss. I wish I could tell you how I tried to console conservatives with the wins of my side. There would be no "Eat sh--!" talk on our part and no attempt to make people feel bad about themselves for voting 'wrong'. The campaign ends, and service to voters comes above partisan politics. We would expect conservatives to participate in the give-and-take of politics.

But there is no confusion. Republicans win the votes that mattered, and the only people who will now matter in our political order will be those who believe that no human suffering is in excess so long as they get everything that they can possibly get by command against people who can do nothing to stop them. By the  time that Donald Trump is through, America will be a wreck, the sort of place that has no immigration problem because it is no longer a country that people want to go to.


I expect to hate life. If I were thirty years younger I would emigrate. If Social Security and Medicare should disappear then I might as well take a Valium and vodka.

The liberals rubbed it in our faces the last time.

How did liberals rub it in your face?

[pbrower2a]

I certainly didn't knock John McCain or Mitt Romney after they were defeated.