Let's make fun of Trump, bash him, etc. while we can!

[Eric the Green]

The president who wants a wall to stop crime, has committed a crime.

[Eric the Green]

Who has the best horoscope scores among potential Republican presidential candidates? The Donald (9-4), Ivanka (16-2) and Jared (10-4). Ivanka has just the kind of approach America loves and falls for! Where's the Kush? He's everywhere!

[Eric the Green]

John Oliver still has the best words about the wall

[pbrower2a]

Devin Nunes isn't Trump., but if there is one current Congressman likely to face prison time, it is he. At the least, if he parleyed with Russian intelligence he should be expelled from Congress.

[Classic-Xer]

(01-05-2019, 06:34 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: John Oliver still has the best words about the wall

What's a blue Brit doing sticking his nose in our business? God, I'd love to be an American guest on his blue minded show. I mean, we've got stuck with 20 some million illegal immigrants that I wouldn't have a problem rounding up and shipping to his little country. I think idiots like need to meet Americans like us so they can understand what the future is going to be like for global minded blues who are used to getting away everything. I wonder how many illegals he's able to support on his income. As far as humans go, the obnoxious four eyed geek who acts and sounds like a liberal moron is pretty low as far as American values go today. My generation knows what to do about people like him or allow others to do about people like him. Oh. if only the blue boomer driven kids of today and not so along only understood what the not so distant future has in store for them.

[Classic-Xer]

(12-12-2018, 11:11 PM)pbrower2a Wrote:

(12-12-2018, 06:47 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(12-12-2018, 02:32 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: Stephen Colbert outdid himself about how Trump outdid himself with his over-the-top tantrums. Colbert speaks truth to power, and reminds us just how ridiculous he is. We need to be reminded of this every day! And Stephen has been blest with the material he has been given. All he has to do is recount what Trump does and add fun and brilliant connections to it.

Heads up! Oh Trumpie, he has erectile dysfunction now!

Quote:(language unsuited for a family audience redacted) Yeah, you kind of got to laugh at these serious issues that blue comedians fail to view as serious issue or aren't able to look at seriously or are to busy entertaining to actually pay attention to  what was going on, what was being said and what all was being communicated (the body language and the points being expressed and so forth) during the exchanges. He was telling them that he was politically  immune to the negative impacts associated with a government shutdown and he's right. We don't care if the government shuts down and a bunch of  blue voters (public sector employees go without paychecks for a few weeks/several weeks) are financially forced to sacrifice for a bunch of people who don't matter as much as the people their government wages and federal revenues are being used to support. I think it would be a great way to test how strong blue values actually are in this country and within the Democratic party.

Trump tries to do Machiavellian politics to the extent possible in America (reward allies, but punish the rest), but he just does not do it well.  He may also be going too far in accordance with the checks and balances.

Remember: the House controls the budget, and on that Nancy Pelosi and Donald Trump will be equals on January 3. Democrats have priorities other than an environmentally-blighting, budget-busting wall on the border. He can get a smarter border, one with better electronic detection, the sort that can detect a jackrabbit making an illegal crossing of the border and can give the Border Patrol more lead time on catching a border-crosser. But that is as far as things can reasonably go.

Remember: The House and Senate or Legislative Branch controls the budget and Nancy Pelosi is involved just for show at this point and is only along for the ride at this point. It really boils down to Chuck or Trump and their toughness and their willingness to see this through regardless of the outcome and who prefers who as far as who the American MALE voters are more likely to identify with and support at this point or show up in mass to support support in 2020. I can't stand liberal wimps who bow down to lesser/ weaker women regardless of whether they're right or wrong, lying or seriously lacking legitimate proof, whether they're chosen or hand picked and advanced because they happen to be a woman instead of a man and so forth. 

I mean, are illegal blue citizens really worth all the sacrifices that American workers are being expected to make for them these days. I agree with Trumps view as well. I thinks it's probably best to get the elitist blue (queen Nancy) out of the way early so the next two years aren't a complete loss as far as  getting things down for the American people for a change vs  doing nothing  done like the politicians of old who are now working for CCN and MSNBC were doing wth their time and our money less than a decade ago. I mean, if you ain't a mover and shaker politician these days, what good are you these days. I'm there's got to be some reddish minded blues who understand the value of making progress and being associated with actual accomplishments vs being viewed as a liberal only who is only interested in voting liberal and going along with liberals.

I mean, she looks good until she opens her mouth and the mind of a clueless blue comes out. If blue brains worked properly, the blue would be able to see that there are larger problems like illegal immigration ( an issue that costs America a hell of a lot more money and causes a lot more issues for American citizens than the idea of building a wall) and healthcare costs which Obamacare wasn't ever really intended to address or fix.

[pbrower2a]

(01-15-2019, 08:28 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Remember: The House and Senate or Legislative Branch controls the budget and Nancy Pelosi is involved just for show at this point and is only along for the ride at this point. It really boils down to Chuck or Trump and their toughness and their willingness to see this through regardless of the outcome and who prefers who as far as who the American MALE voters are more likely to identify with and support at this point or show up in mass to support support in 2020. I can't stand liberal wimps who bow down to lesser/ weaker women regardless of whether they're right or wrong, lying or seriously lacking legitimate proof, whether they're chosen or hand picked and advanced because they happen to be a woman instead of a man and so forth. 

Speaker of the House is arguably the second-most powerful person in America. If not on specific functions, it is for legislation and oversight of the conduct of the Executive Branch. It is no mere ceremonial role; Nancy Pelosi is responsible as the highest-ranking Democrat and head of a House of Congress when in opposition to the President. 

Unless she has changed since 2011, I have never thought of her as a weak figure in American government. She impresses me as a chilly rationalist, which does not define one as a strong leader, but chilly rationality seems to be a hallmark of every strong and benign leader that I have ever known of in political leadership. If you see her as weak, then you stand to be burned. Besides, some of us liberals are tougher characters than you might think. Many liberals did the manly thing against the gangster regimes of Hitler, Mussolini, and Tojo.

Quote:I mean, are illegal blue citizens really worth all the sacrifices that American workers are being expected to make for them these days.

Illegal citizens? I think you misspoke. You probably mean 'illegal aliens'. if an illegal alien does real work, obeys the law on matters other than citizenship status, and speaks passable English, then he may never be detected. Even a commonplace conviction for DUI or minor drug violations as good for deportation. An American-born citizen who commits plenty of crimes has no fear of being sent back to some other country.

Illegal aliens have children, and many of those children are citizens by birth. We never know which one has promise and which one doesn't. Which kid has a better chance in America -- some kid whose parents are illegal aliens who shower affection on their children and strongly promote learning among their kids -- or white children born to parents heavily involved in meth, who inspire contempt for the legal system and defend their children's inadequate performance in school? I'm talking about parents who let their kids stay up until half-past Letterman and console their kids who say "that mean English teacher has us doing homework again!"

Sure, I have no children, but in view of how unforgiving our economic system can be, I am going to tell a child that that teacher has a good reason for assigning that homework, and that I insist that it be done with meticulous effort as I did as a child. If the work is difficult -- well, nobody ever achieves much by doing something easy. It is far easier to get ahead in America by using one's mind than by doing raw labor, although the latter may be necessary at times.

Quote:I agree with Trumps view as well. I thinks it's probably best to get the elitist blue (queen Nancy) out of the way early so the next two years aren't a complete loss as far as  getting things down for the American people for a change vs  doing nothing  done like the politicians of old who are now working for CCN and MSNBC were doing with their time and our money  less than a decade ago. I mean, if you ain't a mover and shaker politician these days, what good are you these days. I'm there's got to be some reddish minded blues who understand the value of making progress and being associated with actual accomplishments vs being viewed as a liberal only who is only interested in voting liberal and going along with liberals.

Except for his crass vulgarity (he acts much like someone who won the Super-Duper Megabucks Lottery) he is as blatant an elitist as there is. He is the sort of person who stays ahead by making sure that others fail -- which is pathological leadership in business or government.

No, one does not need to be a mover-and-shaker in politics, business, or academia to be of value. Honest work should be adequate, and that applies to the people who pick our crops, sweep cow droppings in a dairy, change bedpans, clean toilets, or do other work that nobody does when he has a viable alternative. People who do such things cannot hide any inadequacies of their performance of their jobs, unlike the worthless (and often lavishly-paid) poseurs that seduce their ways into highly-respected positions.

As it is the current GOP seems to have sold its soul  to get power; it either can't yet see that Donald Trump is an unmitigated disaster or it is unwilling to recognize him as such (with few exceptions, most notably when Mitt Romney called Donald Trump the dishonest, corrupt, cruel, intolerant, and bigoted figure that he is. How bad is Donald Trump? He makes me regret supporting Obama in 2012  because I would rather be going into the seventh year of a Romney Presidency instead of into the third of a Trump Presidency.

You underestimate my subtlety as a thinker, I may see absolute right and wrong, and extreme disparities between truth and falsehood at times -- but I also recognize the desirability of human virtue, part of which is overall competence (that Trump lacks), integrity (that Trump lacks), self-control (that Trump lacks), ability to learn from errors (that Trump lacks), and decency toward people in bad situations (that Trump lacks). It may be easy to see those in Obama.. but I look at the record of some conservatives  such as Ford and Eisenhower, and I see in Donald Trump someone that falls far short of either.

Let's think again of formal education. It has a classical purpose in improving a youth who endures it. So there is more to life than "sex and drugs and rock-and-roll"? Yup! There is also more to life than material indulgence, bureaucratic power, pleasure-seeking, and getting onto the executive fast track. If someone goes to a four-year college and decides to take a low-paying profession such as fish-and-wildlife officer, clergy in a depressed area, social worker, or librarian -- then that is not failure. Maybe one has found a calling, which is far better than drifting along in life or living as a thrall of consumerism. Someone fortunately educated does not need a penthouse with a  glorious view, a Mercedes, a stable of fine riding horses, fine silver, and other accoutrements of class privilege. It is best that one recognize their emptiness. I would always have been satisfied with the means of a garage mechanic. I might not make the same consumer choices as a blue-collar worker, as I would have a house full of books -- and a collection of classical music and great old movies. Maybe I would buy some art to go along. I just wouldn't buy into the mass low culture which is as empty as the vulgarity of Donald Trump.

Quote:I mean, she looks good until she opens her mouth and the mind of a  clueless blue comes out.

I have known smart liberals and smart conservatives. The difference is not in their mental abilities; it is in their core values. But I know how to appeal to the core values of conservatives on some issues that I consider pressing. I was all for homosexual rights once I was gay-bashed... and I told one arch-conservative that the fault with the gay-bashing was a gross disrespect for the conservative value of law and order that give human rights, including property rights that people staunchly favor, their validity. I told another arch-conservative, a religious fundamentalist, that nobody is ever going to lead a homosexual to Jesus through a beating.

Quote:  If blue brains worked properly, the blue would be able to see that there are larger problems like illegal immigration ( an issue that costs America a hell of a lot more money and causes a lot more issues for American citizens than the idea of building a wall) and healthcare costs which Obamacare wasn't ever really intended to address or fix.

On the other hand, certain people make money off greater competition for real estate (higher rents and property valuations), more costly infrastructure (more people using highways that must often be widened expensively), and fuel consumption (more demand means higher prices for us all). Meanwhile, more population by any means (and a birth rate high enough to get the same population would have the same effect) implies that more people compete for such jobs as there are, especially in declining industries.

When it comes to the cost of living, including the unspoken costs of traffic jams, resource depletion, pollution, and the ugliness of suburban sprawl, 350 million people, 50 million of which might be illegal aliens, and 350 million people of whom nobody is an illegal alien, would be much the same. Life really was easier when there were fewer Americans. Real estate alone was far more affordable. Fuel was incredibly cheap. To be sure, some things have gotten better due to regulation and taxation -- we no longer use leaded gasoline (which probably explains why crime rates are far lower now than in the 1960s*), people don't smoke and drink (and especially don't drive drunk) as much, highway deaths are down -- way down -- because the roads that people now use most heavily are far safer as are the cars that people now use, we have better medical technology to save our lives, and better technology of entertainment. But whether such would have been possible with a population of 180 million as in 1960 or the 350 million that we now have is not so obvious.

As for the cost of building a wall -- I can think of plenty of alternative uses for the funds on infrastructure, like building rural freeways that will give much of America access to first-rate highways that it does not now have. I can think of some routes on a mental map -- like extending Interstate 27 to Midland-Odessa from Lubbock and in turn  to Interstate 10 or to the southeast through Abilene along US 84 and then south along US 83 to Interstate 10. Hastening the building of Interstate 11 connecting Las Vegas and Phoenix would connect the two largest cities at such distance that do not have an Interstate connection would be more popular in Arizona than a wall at the Mexican border. Connecting Calexico and the Mexican border to Interstate 10  would serve California far better than would building a border wall. Or maybe if you want a real interstate solution to traffic, then connect Amarillo to El Paso (Interstate 28?) with a new freeway. New expressway in underdeveloped rural areas does far more economic good than will building a white elephant of a border wall that the next Democratic President will cut off funding for. 310, 11, 28, and 27 all make more sense than a wall which will never get any goods to market, will never foster local development, will never cut traffic fatalities -- but will be full of cost over-runs, will bring environmental degradation, and will disrupt local economies.

As little as I trust President Trump, I would not be surprised to find that the  Russian Mafia has already gotten its hooks into the President for graft in the greatest boondoggle that any pol has ever thought up.

By the way -- I do not live in the American Southwest. I am simply suggesting alternative infrastructure of a type whose costs and benefits are already well known.  Improved mass transit might be more desirable than highways from an ecological standpoint.

[Classic-Xer]

(01-16-2019, 08:58 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: Speaker of the House is arguably the second-most powerful person in America. If not on specific functions, it is for legislation and oversight of the conduct of the Executive Branch. It is no mere ceremonial role; Nancy Pelosi is responsible as the highest-ranking Democrat and head of a House of Congress when in opposition to the President. 

Unless she has changed since 2011, I have never thought of her as a weak figure in American government. She impresses me as a chilly rationalist, which does not define one as a strong leader, but chilly rationality seems to be a hallmark of every strong and benign leader that I have ever known of in political leadership. If you see her as weak, then you stand to be burned. Besides, some of us liberals are tougher characters than you might think. Many liberals did the manly thing against the gangster regimes of Hitler, Mussolini, and Tojo.  


Illegal citizens? I think you misspoke. You probably mean 'illegal aliens'. if an illegal alien does real work, obeys the law on matters other than citizenship status, and speaks passable English, then he may never be detected. Even a commonplace conviction for DUI or minor drug violations as good for deportation. An American-born citizen who commits plenty of crimes has no fear of being  sent back to some other country.

Illegal aliens have children, and many of those children are citizens by birth. We never know which one has promise and which one doesn't. Which kid has a better chance in America -- some kid whose parents are illegal aliens who shower affection on their children and strongly promote learning among their kids -- or white children born to parents heavily involved in meth, who inspire contempt for the legal system and defend their children's inadequate performance in school? I'm talking about parents who let their kids stay up until half-past Letterman and console their kids who say "that mean English teacher has us doing homework again.

She's a political schemer, a backroom deal maker and a major threat to those on the Democratic side who are foolish enough to oppose her and the views of wealthy blue political donors who she represents for the most part. But, she's not much of an actual leader per say. You ever see how she acts when the heat/pressure/emphasis is on her. She babbles, says stupid stuff and acts like a snotty teenager. Well, I'm not all that interested in the opinions or positions of a spoiled rich bitch who acts like a  over protected female who reminds me of a teenage girl and someone who would support a fascist in order to keep her wealth and privilege. As far a political power, the Senate has power over her at this point because the fate of strengthening American border security is in their hands at this point and the Senate has power over the House in general because nothing gets passed without Senate approval. What you have to be concerned about are  Democratic voters and traditional non voters who may have shared your view of Trump a couple of years ago who have seen and have been watching a president who they didn't trust enough to vote for in 2016 who has been actually trying to deliver on the campaign campaign promises that he made to the American working class voters who supported him.

I didn't misspeak, I chose terms that I thought were more closely related to the so-called liberals view of them instead of mine. I'm quite capable of viewing things/people the same way as the so-called liberals. But you're right, I do view them as illegal aliens who have no legal right to be here at all. I view them as people who don't have a right to receive healthcare benefits or welfare entitlements or the right to take away classroom space or the attention of American teachers or other educational resources away from an American student/school or view them as having the right to infringe upon the rights of American citizens and the right to screw up or severely impact the lives of American citizens. How long is it going to be before we start hearing and seeing and talking about bad stuff that's happening to so-called liberal officials and so-called liberal groups or so-called liberals in general? I think the blues or so-called liberals have a major wake up call that'll be coming their way one way or another that will be beginning to occur not so far down the road.

[pbrower2a]

(01-17-2019, 12:20 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: (Nancy Pelosi is)  a political schemer, a backroom deal maker

That is how American politics used to be done -- and it worked. I see us going back to what worked, with the most blatant difference in a recognition that America has changed in ethnic composition and that the technology is more advanced.

Quote:and a major threat to those on the Democratic side who are foolish enough to oppose her and the views of wealthy blue political donors who she represents for the most part.

Nobody gets everything that he wants except as a coincidence, but nobody gets completely rejected, either. Such is a consequence of democratic give-and-take, and not of My Way or the Highway politics as Trump tries. It's back to the style of Sam Rayburn or Mike Mansfield.

Quote:But, she's not much of an actual leader per say. You ever see how she acts when the heat/pressure/emphasis is on her. She babbles, says stupid stuff and acts like a snotty teenager.

Which is what I expect from you because you see disagreement as evil.  

Quote:Well, I'm not all that interested in the opinions or positions of a spoiled rich bitch who acts like a  over protected female who reminds me of a teenage girl and someone who would support a fascist in order to keep her wealth and privilege.

She does not need a fascist to protect her wealth and privilege. A free market with an adequate welfare state will do that for most Americans -- and it is the absence of a welfare state that fosters extremism, Left or Right.

Quote:As far a political power, the Senate has power over her at this point because the fate of strengthening American border security is in their hands at this point and the Senate has power over the House in general because nothing gets passed without Senate approval.

The border wall and any efforts to privatize the public sector to Trump cronies die in the House for the next two years. Maybe she can hammer out deals with Republicans in Texas for highway projects instead of the border wall. Maybe we rush the I-69 project in southern Texas intended to connect Houston with Corpus Christi and such cities as Harlingen, McAllen, and Brownsville.  

Quote:What you have to be concerned about are  Democratic voters and traditional non voters who may have shared your view of Trump a couple of years ago who have seen and have been watching a president who they didn't trust enough to vote for in 2016 who  has been actually trying to deliver on the campaign campaign promises that he made to the American working class voters who supported him.

I look at the polls, and President Trump seems to have lost the voters who swung from Obama to Trump. Trump made contradictory promises and appealed to identity. People who disliked both Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump voted heavily for Trump -- and they now see what they are getting. I also look at the 2018 election for the House of Representatives, and I see an unambiguous rejection of Donald Trump and his policies. Better good roads than a bad wall.

Donald Trump has cast off some of the old virtues of conservatism in the recent American past, and what do we get as compensation? A Commie-style personality cult with a President who sees politics as an unending campaign of vilification of any real or imagined opposition. Big government at its most pathological -- something of little use, but full of built-in graft. He melds the style of an old-style urban boss onto fascistic contempt for the poor and helpless. At the least the old-style urban bosses made sure that the children of poor people got fed and went to school.

Quote:I didn't misspeak, I chose  terms that I thought were more closely related to the so-called liberals view of them instead of mine. I'm quite capable of viewing things/people the same way as the so-called liberals. But you're right, I do view them as illegal aliens who have no legal right to be here at all.

We need to see ourselves as world citizens as well as Americans. We need to see any pointless human suffering as an affront to us all. People without empathy invariably become cruel overlords of the unfortunate, whether the religious and ethnic pariahs of the time, the poor, or those of inadequate education. Even 'model minorities' can go from doing well to being beaten, robbed, and killed. The only significant difference that I see between myself and German-speaking and Yiddish-speaking Jews is Jesus.  

Quote:I view them as people who don't have a right to receive healthcare benefits or welfare entitlements  or the right to take away classroom space or the attention of American teachers or other educational resources away from an American student/school or view them as having the right to infringe upon the rights of American citizens and the right to screw up or severely impact the lives of American citizens.

I see them as fellow human beings. Some of them have fled the violent crime in Guatemala, Honduras, and El Salvador related to gangs over drug money that 100%-American addicts supply to drug-trafficking cartels. Do you want to blame Mexico? Net immigration from Mexico to the United States is now negative (many Mexican-Americans retiring to Mexico, where Social Security funds and proceeds from the sale of American real estate go further).

Let us remember that the children of illegal aliens are often themselves citizens, and the divide between an older sibling who came to America as a toddler and a younger sibling born in America is not so clear in the family dynamics. Medical coverage for children is comparatively inexpensive in contrast with what it is for the elderly. Illegal aliens have a tendency to become citizens, as many end up marrying US citizens.

Consider this: if I am dating, is the first question that I ask someone for whom I start to develop an interest about status of citizenship? Shared values and interests matter far more.

Quote: How long is it going to be before we start hearing and seeing and talking about bad stuff that's happening to so-called liberal officials and so-called liberal groups or so-called liberals in general? I think the blues or so-called liberals have a major wake up call that'll be coming their way one way or another that will be beginning to occur not so far down the road.

And when do you start showing concern for the plight of poor white kids in Appalachia and the Ozarks?

...I look at our advanced technology, and it can take away millions of jobs while enhancing productivity (including computer power).  The world is changing faster than you recognize in ways that you fail to contemplate. We will  need to change the priority of school from training people for a miserable first job that practically everyone outgrows quickly to one that teaches how to enjoy life to its fullest. I look at Donald Trump, who is close to being a fascist who thinks that life is rightly preparation for suffering and death, and see a reactionary fool. We will need to tax machine-based productivity and easy money from property rents to develop a welfare system that allows people to fully assert their precious humanity despite unemployment. The alternative is either a Bolshevik-style revolution that overthrows elites who indulge themselves in the presence of mass suffering or the rejection of modern technology that can enrich us.

[Bill the Piper]

Make fun! There are other threads for Serious Discussions
Let's ridicule Mr

Terrible
Racist
Unqualified
Misogynistic
Pompous

[Bill the Piper]

[Classic-Xer]

(01-17-2019, 09:52 AM)pbrower2a Wrote:

(01-17-2019, 12:20 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: (Nancy Pelosi is)  a political schemer, a backroom deal maker

That is how American  politics used to be done -- and it worked. I see us going back to what worked, with the most blatant difference in a recognition that America has changed in ethnic composition and that the technology is more advanced.

Quote:and a major threat to those on the Democratic side who are foolish enough to oppose her and the views of wealthy blue political donors who she represents for the most part.

Nobody gets everything that he wants except as a coincidence, but nobody gets completely rejected, either. Such is a consequence of democratic give-and-take, and not of My Way or the Highway politics as Trump tries. It's back to the style of Sam Rayburn or Mike Mansfield.

Quote:But, she's not much of an actual leader per say. You ever see how she acts when the heat/pressure/emphasis is on her. She babbles, says stupid stuff and acts like a snotty teenager.

Which is what I expect from you because you see disagreement as evil.  

Quote:Well, I'm not all that interested in the opinions or positions of a spoiled rich bitch who acts like a  over protected female who reminds me of a teenage girl and someone who would support a fascist in order to keep her wealth and privilege.

She does not need a fascist to protect her wealth and privilege. A free market with an adequate welfare state will do that for most Americans -- and it is the absence of a welfare state that fosters extremism, Left or Right.

Quote:As far a political power, the Senate has power over her at this point because the fate of strengthening American border security is in their hands at this point and the Senate has power over the House in general because nothing gets passed without Senate approval.

The border wall and any efforts to privatize the public sector to Trump cronies die in the House for the next two years. Maybe she can hammer out deals with Republicans in Texas for highway projects instead of the border wall. Maybe we rush the I-69 project in southern Texas intended to connect Houston with Corpus Christi and such cities as Harlingen, McAllen, and Brownsville.  

Quote:What you have to be concerned about are  Democratic voters and traditional non voters who may have shared your view of Trump a couple of years ago who have seen and have been watching a president who they didn't trust enough to vote for in 2016 who  has been actually trying to deliver on the campaign campaign promises that he made to the American working class voters who supported him.

I look at the polls, and President Trump seems to have lost the voters who swung from Obama to Trump. Trump made contradictory promises and appealed to identity. People who disliked both Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump voted heavily for Trump -- and they now see what they are getting. I also look at the 2018 election for the House of Representatives, and I see an unambiguous rejection of Donald Trump and his policies. Better good roads than a bad wall.

Donald Trump has cast off some of the old virtues of conservatism in the recent American past, and what do we get as compensation? A Commie-style personality cult with a President who sees politics as an unending campaign of vilification of any real or imagined opposition. Big government at its most pathological -- something of little use, but full of built-in graft. He melds the style of an old-style urban boss onto fascistic contempt for the poor and helpless. At the least the old-style urban bosses made sure that the children of poor people got fed and went to school.

Quote:I didn't misspeak, I chose  terms that I thought were more closely related to the so-called liberals view of them instead of mine. I'm quite capable of viewing things/people the same way as the so-called liberals. But you're right, I do view them as illegal aliens who have no legal right to be here at all.

We need to see ourselves as world citizens as well as Americans. We need to see any pointless human suffering as an affront to us all. People without empathy invariably become cruel overlords of the unfortunate, whether the religious and ethnic pariahs of the time, the poor, or those of inadequate education. Even 'model minorities' can go from doing well to being beaten, robbed, and killed. The only significant difference that I see between myself and German-speaking and Yiddish-speaking Jews is Jesus.  

Quote:I view them as people who don't have a right to receive healthcare benefits or welfare entitlements  or the right to take away classroom space or the attention of American teachers or other educational resources away from an American student/school or view them as having the right to infringe upon the rights of American citizens and the right to screw up or severely impact the lives of American citizens.

I see them as fellow human beings. Some of them have fled the violent crime in Guatemala, Honduras, and El Salvador related to gangs over drug money that 100%-American addicts supply to drug-trafficking cartels. Do you want to blame Mexico? Net immigration from Mexico to the United States is now negative (many Mexican-Americans retiring to Mexico, where Social Security funds and proceeds from the sale of American real estate go further).

Let us remember that the children of illegal aliens are often themselves citizens, and the divide between an older sibling who came to America as a toddler and a younger sibling born in America is not so clear in the family dynamics. Medical coverage for children is comparatively inexpensive in contrast with what it is for the elderly. Illegal aliens have a tendency to become citizens, as many end up marrying US citizens.

Consider this: if I am dating, is the first question that I ask someone for whom I start to develop an interest about status of citizenship? Shared values and interests matter far more.

Quote: How long is it going to be before we start hearing and seeing and talking about bad stuff that's happening to so-called liberal officials and so-called liberal groups or so-called liberals in general? I think the blues or so-called liberals have a major wake up call that'll be coming their way one way or another that will be beginning to occur not so far down the road.

And when do you start showing concern for the plight of poor white kids in Appalachia and the Ozarks?

...I look at our advanced technology, and it can take away millions of jobs while enhancing productivity (including computer power).  The world is changing faster than you recognize in ways that you fail to contemplate. We will  need to change the priority of school from training people for a miserable first job that practically everyone outgrows quickly to one that teaches how to enjoy life to its fullest. I look at Donald Trump, who is close to being a fascist who thinks that life is rightly preparation for suffering and death, and see a reactionary fool. We will need to tax machine-based productivity and easy money from property rents to develop a welfare system that allows people to fully assert their precious humanity despite unemployment. The alternative is either a Bolshevik-style revolution that overthrows elites who indulge themselves in the presence of mass suffering or the rejection of modern technology that can enrich us.

So, you prefer politicians making backroom deals among themselves instead of being open or transparent as we say and debating issues among themselves in front of the public like they should these days. I mean, do you think Obamacare would have been passed without the backroom deals that resulted in the elimination of the Democratic super majority and the bulk of the GOP establishment as well. Pelosi didn't want to discuss details with Trump in public. She preferred to discuss details in private. Why? I assume that she felt uncomfortable and concerned about Trump hammering her with the truth as it relates to illegal immigration and facts as they relate to illegal immigration and the use of walls and so forth.

I'm fully aware of technological advancement and the impacts that it's having on America today. Would you be open to socialist ideas or ideals, if there wasn't computer's and databases that can do what you're still view yourself as being good at doing today? I'm not concerned about computers replacing me or replacing tradesmen/women anytime soon. One couldn't program a computer or a machine to do what we do and deal with as a normal part of our jobs. Technological advancement has become part of our way of life and an important part of what we do as far as our careers these days.

Dude, I've seen electric hand held drills and most other electrically operated hand tools be replaced by modern battery operated hand tools. I've seen the advancement in heating and air conditioning equipment and so forth. I'm not a stranger to technological advancement or a stranger to the idea of experiencing changes to the norm either.  Once again, you haven't adjusted your view of me and reds in generals as not being backwoods reds that aren't quite up to speed with modern day advancement or technological advancement. You're not alone, most blues seem pretty clueless when it comes to actually knowing who the reds (the Republican voters) are as far as it's voters go these days. Remember, we aren't the ones voting to go backwards and return to large scale use of labor to build stuff like the good old days or the idea paying lots of people to sit around and strum themselves while the other half works, pay their own bills and contributes the bulk of the taxes to accommodate their presence and support their welfare lifestyles either. No, I figure we'll opt to go separate ways and opt to move on without the liberals. I'm sure Reddish America will let liberals decide whether a war of liberation will be necessary or whether they'll be willing to let go and go with Europe.

As the Appalachian and Ozarks kids, I don't view them as deplorable or speak of them or view them or treat them as if they're dirt either. As far as you and blues in general, I haven't seen anything of value coming from blue minds and mouths that I consider worth sacrificing or worth paying the ultimate sacrifice for either at this point.

[pbrower2a]

(01-18-2019, 01:59 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: (exchange redacted for brevity)

So, you prefer politicians making backroom deals among themselves instead of being open or transparent as we say and debating issues among themselves in front of the public like they should these days. I mean, do you think Obamacare would have been passed without the backroom deals that resulted in the elimination of the Democratic super majority and the bulk of the GOP establishment as well. Pelosi didn't want to discuss details with Trump in public. She preferred to discuss details in private. Why? I assume that she felt uncomfortable and concerned about Trump hammering her with the truth as it relates to illegal immigration and facts as they relate to illegal immigration and the use of walls and so forth.

I defer to the expert on the topic:



Churchill may have been a piece of work, but at least he wasn't the fascist pig that Donald Trump is -- let alone the man for whom he would be the arch-enemy. He knew what was going on under Mussolini, Hitler, Stalin, and Franco, and didn't like such. He also knew about monarchical absolutism from the British historical experience. He knew enough about the tin-pot military dictators who exuded spit-and-polish machismo yet proved brittle under the false front.

Democracy does not mean that people get their way at all times, but instead they get a workable approximation. As important as the formality of democracy is the rule of law. For an exercise of democracy at its worst, just contemplate a lynching: all decisions by a lynch mob involve strict adherence to a majority vote.

Direct democracy is impossible in a society more complex than a tribal community in which property is void except for the tools of a hunter-gatherer. We have representative government because few of us can spend the time in the political process or have the focus on legislation that trustworthy experts have. We the People have the responsibility to choose the most reliable experts. Republicans had the House of Representatives for eight years and have proved inadequate. In a little less than two years, Republicans will have had the presidency for four catastrophic years and the Senate for six dreary years. Do you want to guess how that will turn out?

Donald Trump is a My-Way-or-the-Highway sort of executive which we can tolerate in business because business has the narrow objectives of turning a profit and protecting assets without committing outright crime. A company that can't make a profit eventually eats its assets just to survive (Studebaker), loses its customer base due to demographic change (Sears, Big Boy Restaurants), endures a killing lawsuit and judgment (Texaco), or a company that becomes a criminal enterprise (Enron, Madoff) collapses from both a lack of internal controls and an unwillingness of people who have alternatives to deal with it. If you are responsible to shareholders above all else, then you had better push salesmen with quotas, compel people to adapt to change in consumer desires, make sure that the production lines operate effectively but lean if your firm is to survive. If you don;t like the way things are going at JC Penney, then there is at the least Macy's and Kohl's... or maybe you can pass the postal exam and become a letter carrier or decide that doing the vehicle repairs is as good a career as you can hope for. 

My Way or the Highway is impossible for a government unless it is willing to exile, enslave, or murder people. It is not the prerogative of a leader of a formal democracy to tell people that he dislikes to 'find another country'. When 57% of the American people say that they do not want to vote for Donald Trump again, then maybe the problem is Donald Trump.  Maybe we would be better off with a parliamentary system that has an even better constraint on a wayward executive -- the vote of non-confidence (Teresa May survived such a vote -- instead of the more convoluted and difficult process of impeachment. (Of course I know the reason for our system -- our Founding Fathers recognized the corruption of a British parliament  in which many MPs were simply flunkies of the King and that the system was unrepresentative due to the infamous rotten borough.*

Quote:I'm fully aware of technological advancement and the impacts that it's having on America today. Would you be open to socialist ideas or ideals, if there wasn't computer's and databases that can do what you're still view yourself as being good at doing today? I'm not concerned about computers replacing me or replacing tradesmen/women anytime soon. One couldn't program a computer or a machine to do what we do and deal with as a normal part of our jobs. Technological advancement has become part of our way of life and an important part of what we do as far as our careers these days.

Socialist ideas? Which form of socialism? If you are speaking of Marxism-Leninism, it seems to have relied upon the technology of a century ago to overthrow an infant democracy that could neither wage war nor achieve peace and was incapable of reforming away the legacy of an absolute monarchy. Marxism-Leninism has such baggage as the absence of responsible government  -- and where ever it has emerged, an inexcusable body count. If you are discussing other manifestations of socialism, such as the racist socialism of the Strasser brothers or the benign social democracy of some countries, both developed before there was a computer. People have been discussing how to change society in coffee shops just outside good universities for a couple centuries now -- and often without a computer present.

If anything, it is the computer that may have slowed the emergence of socialist ideas in America because many people have found it satisfying than the old 'idiot screen' on which one viewed vapid sitcoms and dramas with plenty of T&A. T&A? Think of what Playboy Magazine has to offer in a centerfold, except that the FCC demands that the T&A be covered out of a superstitious respect for 'decency'... after all we don't want suggestible people to see literal T&A. Yes, there is porn on the web, and plenty of click-bait. But yes, I have read both The Communist Manifesto (which should scare anyone about revolutionary socialism) and Das Kapital -- both in dead-tree editions. No computer was necessary. 

But this said, what Karl Marx said (and the more pathological the social order, the more relevant Marx gets), the role of religion as the opiate of the masses has gone to mindless mass entertainment. Let us also remember that it is the capitalists, executives, big land-owners, and their intellectual flunkies who decide whether Marx describes economic reality or loses relevance.

Quote:Dude, I've seen electric hand held drills and most other electrically operated hand tools be replaced by modern battery operated hand tools. I've seen the advancement in heating and air conditioning equipment and so forth. I'm not a stranger to technological advancement or a stranger to the idea of experiencing changes to the norm either.

I cannot know about your specific skill set as you do. As a skilled worker you can see the results of your efforts as a semi=skilled punch-press operator who sees only one process in thousands can't. Most people see their work as nothing more than what they do for a paycheck, and exploitative elites who live in opulent splendor while trying to get more profits through harsher management or through monopolization and privatization -- and as they see such and hear such insensitive rhetoric as that no human suffering can ever be in excess so long as it serves their greed and indulgence they might see a Marxist-Leninist body count as a small price to pay for   a more just society.

Do you really admire Donald Trump? He is little more than a landlord. Sure, we need them if we have a housing shortage, but I can remember when the middle class could buy its own housing. It was happier then. He is no innovator bringing tangible improvement in people's lives; he simply milks housing shortages in places that have economic opportunity that places like Detroit and St. Louis used to have and no longer do. His forays into entertainment are mindless, as is his sick foray into politics.

He does not understand how American politics works. Maybe Russian political life is easier to understand -- the Big Boss gets rich off sweetheart deals and privatizes the public sector off to his political allies as a reward for complicity in his corrupt dictatorship.  Well, Russia is a country that many want to leave, and you cannot blame that strictly on the remaining heritage of the Soviet system. Communist rule has been gone in Russia for 27 years even in its mildest form (by the way -- the last couple years of Gorbachev were more democratic than what is in Putin's Russia now).

I do not want the Russian political system here. I do not want a system that simply allocates profits to people well-connected so that they can facilitate a dictatorial order. This said, Donald Trump is only the latest of political villains who have found the seams in our political institutions and exploited those seams in efforts to establish dictatorial rule. Lee Atwater... Newt Gingrich... Tom DeLay... Jack Abramoff... Karl Rove... and now Donald Trump. Maybe we would do better with a parliamentary system; Canada seems to do fine.

Quote:Once again, you haven't adjusted your view of me and reds in generals as not being backwoods reds that aren't quite up to speed with modern day advancement or technological advancement.

The problem with Red America is not that it has too few i-devices or self-driving, electrically-powered vehicles. Wal*Mart has its headquarters in Bentonville, Arkansas; it has succeeded by the application of information technology to retailing. I consider Wal*Mart a very sophisticated operation for being able to replace a pair of mass-market navy slacks with the size 34x27 in a store within a couple days after someone buys it. One can get very sophisticated electronics and housewares at Wal*Mart. But technology does not itself bring intellectual sophistication. One can have an excellent PC and alternate between FoX Newspeak Channel, porn, and mindless video games. That is not a way to improve oneself as a person.

I've known middle-wave GIs (born in the 1910s) who grew up in hardscrabble times compared to what we now enjoy, who grew up if lucky with a crank-up phonograph and an early radio if they were fairly-well off. They did not get as much formal schooling as was the norm for youth who grew up even in the Great Depression (the government was encouraging kids to stay in school in part so that they would not compete with adult bread-winners for jobs). Some of those people, who might have grown up on farms or in what would now be horrid urban slums, were far more sophisticated about literature, science, and music than many youth today.

In case you think technology the driving force in moral improvement -- fascists and commies both love technology for what it can do for creating war machines and suppressing dissent. Hell -- and the Nazis created Hell in the form of their concentration camp system
--  the Nazis used the most sophisticated machinery then available to do the Holocaust.

Quote:You're not alone, most blues seem pretty clueless when it comes to actually knowing who the reds (the Republican voters) are as far as it's voters go these days. Remember, we aren't the ones voting to go backwards and return to large scale use of labor to build stuff like the good old days or the idea paying lots of people to sit around and strum themselves while the other half works, pay their own bills and contributes the bulk of the taxes to accommodate their presence and support their welfare lifestyles either. No, I figure we'll opt to go separate ways and opt to move on without the liberals. I'm sure Reddish America will let liberals decide whether a war of liberation will be necessary or whether they'll be willing to let go and go with Europe.

You are discussing as much old norms of manufacturing that made the stuff that people needed in five-day weeks of eight-hour shifts. The forty-hour workweek in manufacturing, wholly inadequate around 1900, was appropriate in view of the manufacturing technology of the 1930s. We can make all the stuff that we need in far less time. We can no longer go back to the old norm in which most people put as much effort into manufacturing as they did eighty to ninety years ago, let alone 120 years ago. We would simply produce more stuff than we need. Humanity has yet to fully adapt to that -- and so it is also with our political and commercial institutions.  My favorite discussion of technological improvement  is with color televisions:




If you were a real early-adapter you would have paid $1,295, or equivalent to $12,082 in 2018 (Wikipedia) in 1954 to buy one of these, and only if you lived in Greater New York City, for this Westinghouse H840CK15 model in 1954. Few people did; it cost in real money what a low-end automobile cost. It was neither very useful or reliable. The 32" flat-screen LED television that you can buy at Wal*Mart is far more useful and reliable. Few bought it.

Quote:As the Appalachian and Ozarks kids, I don't view them as deplorable or speak of them or view them or treat them as if they're dirt either. As far as you and blues in general, I haven't seen anything of value coming from blue minds and mouths that I consider worth sacrificing or worth paying the ultimate sacrifice for either at this point.

When Hillary Clinton spoke of the infamous "basket of deplorables", she referred to adults -- not children. She was talking about adult proud of their arrogant ignorance, bigotry, and fanaticism that Donald Trump exploited -- and won on. We can all regret that people that she so labeled often took pride in that label. Maybe it is not so sick as the "1%" patch of outlaw biker gangs proud to attract sociopaths who traffic in sex and drugs, let alone the death's-head insignia of the SS. But the word 'deplorable' is not intended to flatter.

By the way -- those children deserve better than what they are now getting than what the deplorable right-wing politicians offer them. The only thing uncharacteristic of the Third World in much of Appalachia and the Ozarks is that the people are mostly lily-white. By the way -- what is Donald Judas Trump doing for them?

*The British eventually solved the problem of the rotten borough with apportionment of Parliamentary representation with a Census as the United States established in its Constitution. The system became adequately representative, and as dominions such as Canada, Australia, and New Zealand because the Westminster-style parliament worked adequately in those countries.

[Classic-Xer]

(01-18-2019, 06:30 AM)pbrower2a Wrote:

(01-18-2019, 01:59 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: (exchange redacted for brevity)

So, you prefer politicians making backroom deals among themselves instead of being open or transparent as we say and debating issues among themselves in front of the public like they should these days. I mean, do you think Obamacare would have been passed without the backroom deals that resulted in the elimination of the Democratic super majority and the bulk of the GOP establishment as well. Pelosi didn't want to discuss details with Trump in public. She preferred to discuss details in private. Why? I assume that she felt uncomfortable and concerned about Trump hammering her with the truth as it relates to illegal immigration and facts as they relate to illegal immigration and the use of walls and so forth.

I defer to the expert on the topic:



Churchill may have been a piece of work, but at least he wasn't the fascist pig that Donald Trump is -- let alone the man for whom he would be the arch-enemy. He knew what was going on under Mussolini, Hitler, Stalin, and Franco, and didn't like such. He also knew about monarchical absolutism from the British historical experience. He knew enough about the tin-pot military dictators who exuded spit-and-polish machismo yet proved brittle under the false front.

Democracy does not mean that people get their way at all times, but instead they get a workable approximation. As important as the formality of democracy is the rule of law. For an exercise of democracy at its worst, just contemplate a lynching: all decisions by a lynch mob involve strict adherence to a majority vote.

Direct democracy is impossible in a society more complex than a tribal community in which property is void except for the tools of a hunter-gatherer. We have representative government because few of us can spend the time in the political process or have the focus on legislation that trustworthy experts have. We the People have the responsibility to choose the most reliable experts. Republicans had the House of Representatives for eight years and have proved inadequate. In a little less than two years, Republicans will have had the presidency for four catastrophic years and the Senate for six dreary years. Do you want to guess how that will turn out?

Donald Trump is a My-Way-or-the-Highway sort of executive which we can tolerate in business because business has the narrow objectives of turning a profit and protecting assets without committing outright crime. A company that can't make a profit eventually eats its assets just to survive (Studebaker), loses its customer base due to demographic change (Sears, Big Boy Restaurants), endures a killing lawsuit and judgment (Texaco), or a company that becomes a criminal enterprise (Enron, Madoff) collapses from both a lack of internal controls and an unwillingness of people who have alternatives to deal with it. If you are responsible to shareholders above all else, then you had better push salesmen with quotas, compel people to adapt to change in consumer desires, make sure that the production lines operate effectively but lean if your firm is to survive. If you don;t like the way things are going at JC Penney, then there is at the least Macy's and Kohl's... or maybe you can pass the postal exam and become a letter carrier or decide that doing the vehicle repairs is as good a career as you can hope for. 

My Way or the Highway is impossible for a government unless it is willing to exile, enslave, or murder people. It is not the prerogative of a leader of a formal democracy to tell people that he dislikes to 'find another country'. When 57% of the American people say that they do not want to vote for Donald Trump again, then maybe the problem is Donald Trump.  Maybe we would be better off with a parliamentary system that has an even better constraint on a wayward executive -- the vote of non-confidence (Teresa May survived such a vote -- instead of the more convoluted and difficult process of impeachment. (Of course I know the reason for our system -- our Founding Fathers recognized the corruption of a British parliament  in which many MPs were simply flunkies of the King and that the system was unrepresentative due to the infamous rotten borough.*

Quote:I'm fully aware of technological advancement and the impacts that it's having on America today. Would you be open to socialist ideas or ideals, if there wasn't computer's and databases that can do what you're still view yourself as being good at doing today? I'm not concerned about computers replacing me or replacing tradesmen/women anytime soon. One couldn't program a computer or a machine to do what we do and deal with as a normal part of our jobs. Technological advancement has become part of our way of life and an important part of what we do as far as our careers these days.

Socialist ideas? Which form of socialism? If you are speaking of Marxism-Leninism, it seems to have relied upon the technology of a century ago to overthrow an infant democracy that could neither wage war nor achieve peace and was incapable of reforming away the legacy of an absolute monarchy. Marxism-Leninism has such baggage as the absence of responsible government  -- and where ever it has emerged, an inexcusable body count. If you are discussing other manifestations of socialism, such as the racist socialism of the Strasser brothers or the benign social democracy of some countries, both developed before there was a computer. People have been discussing how to change society in coffee shops just outside good universities for a couple centuries now -- and often without a computer present.

If anything, it is the computer that may have slowed the emergence of socialist ideas in America because many people have found it satisfying than the old 'idiot screen' on which one viewed vapid sitcoms and dramas with plenty of T&A. T&A? Think of what Playboy Magazine has to offer in a centerfold, except that the FCC demands that the T&A be covered out of a superstitious respect for 'decency'... after all we don't want suggestible people to see literal T&A. Yes, there is porn on the web, and plenty of click-bait. But yes, I have read both The Communist Manifesto (which should scare anyone about revolutionary socialism) and Das Kapital -- both in dead-tree editions. No computer was necessary. 

But this said, what Karl Marx said (and the more pathological the social order, the more relevant Marx gets), the role of religion as the opiate of the masses has gone to mindless mass entertainment. Let us also remember that it is the capitalists, executives, big land-owners, and their intellectual flunkies who decide whether Marx describes economic reality or loses relevance.

Quote:Dude, I've seen electric hand held drills and most other electrically operated hand tools be replaced by modern battery operated hand tools. I've seen the advancement in heating and air conditioning equipment and so forth. I'm not a stranger to technological advancement or a stranger to the idea of experiencing changes to the norm either.

I cannot know about your specific skill set as you do. As a skilled worker you can see the results of your efforts as a semi=skilled punch-press operator who sees only one process in thousands can't. Most people see their work as nothing more than what they do for a paycheck, and exploitative elites who live in opulent splendor while trying to get more profits through harsher management or through monopolization and privatization -- and as they see such and hear such insensitive rhetoric as that no human suffering can ever be in excess so long as it serves their greed and indulgence they might see a Marxist-Leninist body count as a small price to pay for   a more just society.

Do you really admire Donald Trump? He is little more than a landlord. Sure, we need them if we have a housing shortage, but I can remember when the middle class could buy its own housing. It was happier then. He is no innovator bringing tangible improvement in people's lives; he simply milks housing shortages in places that have economic opportunity that places like Detroit and St. Louis used to have and no longer do. His forays into entertainment are mindless, as is his sick foray into politics.

He does not understand how American politics works. Maybe Russian political life is easier to understand -- the Big Boss gets rich off sweetheart deals and privatizes the public sector off to his political allies as a reward for complicity in his corrupt dictatorship.  Well, Russia is a country that many want to leave, and you cannot blame that strictly on the remaining heritage of the Soviet system. Communist rule has been gone in Russia for 27 years even in its mildest form (by the way -- the last couple years of Gorbachev were more democratic than what is in Putin's Russia now).

I do not want the Russian political system here. I do not want a system that simply allocates profits to people well-connected so that they can facilitate a dictatorial order. This said, Donald Trump is only the latest of political villains who have found the seams in our political institutions and exploited those seams in efforts to establish dictatorial rule. Lee Atwater... Newt Gingrich... Tom DeLay... Jack Abramoff... Karl Rove... and now Donald Trump. Maybe we would do better with a parliamentary system; Canada seems to do fine.

Quote:Once again, you haven't adjusted your view of me and reds in generals as not being backwoods reds that aren't quite up to speed with modern day advancement or technological advancement.

The problem with Red America is not that it has too few i-devices or self-driving, electrically-powered vehicles. Wal*Mart has its headquarters in Bentonville, Arkansas; it has succeeded by the application of information technology to retailing. I consider Wal*Mart a very sophisticated operation for being able to replace a pair of mass-market navy slacks with the size 34x27 in a store within a couple days after someone buys it. One can get very sophisticated electronics and housewares at Wal*Mart. But technology does not itself bring intellectual sophistication. One can have an excellent PC and alternate between FoX Newspeak Channel, porn, and mindless video games. That is not a way to improve oneself as a person.

I've known middle-wave GIs (born in the 1910s) who grew up in hardscrabble times compared to what we now enjoy, who grew up if lucky with a crank-up phonograph and an early radio if they were fairly-well off. They did not get as much formal schooling as was the norm for youth who grew up even in the Great Depression (the government was encouraging kids to stay in school in part so that they would not compete with adult bread-winners for jobs). Some of those people, who might have grown up on farms or in what would now be horrid urban slums, were far more sophisticated about literature, science, and music than many youth today.

In case you think technology the driving force in moral improvement -- fascists and commies both love technology for what it can do for creating war machines and suppressing dissent. Hell -- and the Nazis created Hell in the form of their concentration camp system
--  the Nazis used the most sophisticated machinery then available to do the Holocaust.

Quote:You're not alone, most blues seem pretty clueless when it comes to actually knowing who the reds (the Republican voters) are as far as it's voters go these days. Remember, we aren't the ones voting to go backwards and return to large scale use of labor to build stuff like the good old days or the idea paying lots of people to sit around and strum themselves while the other half works, pay their own bills and contributes the bulk of the taxes to accommodate their presence and support their welfare lifestyles either. No, I figure we'll opt to go separate ways and opt to move on without the liberals. I'm sure Reddish America will let liberals decide whether a war of liberation will be necessary or whether they'll be willing to let go and go with Europe.

You are discussing as much old norms of manufacturing that made the stuff that people needed in five-day weeks of eight-hour shifts. The forty-hour workweek in manufacturing, wholly inadequate around 1900, was appropriate in view of the manufacturing technology of the 1930s. We can make all the stuff that we need in far less time. We can no longer go back to the old norm in which most people put as much effort into manufacturing as they did eighty to ninety years ago, let alone 120 years ago. We would simply produce more stuff than we need. Humanity has yet to fully adapt to that -- and so it is also with our political and commercial institutions.  My favorite discussion of technological improvement  is with color televisions:




If you were a real early-adapter you would have paid $1,295, or equivalent to $12,082 in 2018 (Wikipedia) in 1954 to buy one of these, and only if you lived in Greater New York City, for this Westinghouse H840CK15 model in 1954. Few people did; it cost in real money what a low-end automobile cost. It was neither very useful or reliable. The 32" flat-screen LED television that you can buy at Wal*Mart is far more useful and reliable. Few bought it.

Quote:As the Appalachian and Ozarks kids, I don't view them as deplorable or speak of them or view them or treat them as if they're dirt either. As far as you and blues in general, I haven't seen anything of value coming from blue minds and mouths that I consider worth sacrificing or worth paying the ultimate sacrifice for either at this point.

When Hillary Clinton spoke of the infamous "basket of deplorables", she referred to adults -- not children. She was talking about adult proud of their arrogant ignorance, bigotry, and fanaticism that Donald Trump exploited -- and won on. We can all regret that people that she so labeled often took pride in that label. Maybe it is not so sick as the "1%" patch of outlaw biker gangs proud to attract sociopaths who traffic in sex and drugs, let alone the death's-head insignia of the SS. But the word 'deplorable' is not intended to flatter.

By the way -- those children deserve better than what they are now getting than what the deplorable right-wing politicians offer them. The only thing uncharacteristic of the Third World in much of Appalachia and the Ozarks is that the people are mostly lily-white. By the way -- what is Donald Judas Trump doing for them?

*The British eventually solved the problem of the rotten borough with apportionment of Parliamentary representation with a Census as the United States established in its Constitution. The system became adequately representative, and as dominions such as Canada, Australia, and New Zealand because the Westminster-style parliament worked adequately in those countries.

I don't see a reason to continue this conversation with you at this point. I mean, it's really kind of a waste of personal time that could be spent doing other things that are more constructive that pertain to my life. BTW, I don't admire Trump like you admired Obama. Once again, you fail to see/recognize our very distinct differences. I just respect him as a businessman, as a father and even as a politician these days.

[pbrower2a]

(01-19-2019, 01:35 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: I don't see a reason to continue this conversation with you at this point. I mean, it's really kind of a waste of personal time that could be spent doing other things that are more constructive that pertain to my life. BTW, I don't admire Trump like you admired Obama. Once again, you fail to see/recognize our very distinct differences.  I just respect him as a businessman, as a father and even as a politician these days.

More power to you. You can do far more good doing HVAC installation and repair than you can do trying to convince liberals that they are completely wrong.

Obama has an excellent legal mind which has made him a fine political leader. Donald Trump is not a good businessman; he is simply fortunate to have been born to a successful businessman and to have been in a real estate owner in a city with exorbitant rents. If he had inherited properties in such places as Detroit or St. Louis he would be flat broke. He has made ventures that have mostly gone under.

There's hardly an easier way to generate profit than to own residential and commercial properties in a city with a chronic and incurable real-estate market. There is no need for accommodating a changing market - just raise the rent even faster than GDP. There is no need to keep up with innovation in product design or manufacturing technology. Innovative marketing? There's more to marketing than putting one's personality onto a product. Financial analysis? That is how Warren Buffett makes his money -- deciding what investment is worth his cash. Donald Trump doesn't have the brains for that. Finding marketable resources like metals and oil is tougher. Donald Trump would be a disaster in the oil industry. Autos? The annual retooling of auto assembly lines to meet changes between model years is beyond his comprehension. Do you think he would have any competence in the area of intellectual property? Definitely not in book publishing, music, or movies. OK, he has had some success offering schlock entertainment, but seemingly anyone can make money offering exploitative bilge to fill time on some network. Do you believe that if he tried his hand in movies that Clint Eastwood, Steven Spielberg, or Ron Howard would have anything to do with him?

You are probably a better businessman than Donald Trump is. You must keep abreast of technical changes in your business. You must convince people that it is wiser to replace an obsolete HVAC system with something newer, perhaps doing some math that others are either too incompetent or too lazy to do to express a decision between sticking with a dying HVAC system and either retrofitting or replacing it.

Capitalists at their best are drivers of economic progress as most people aren't.   But Trump is simply someone who gets away with stiffing contractors as you could never get away with. I suspect that you really are a self-made man, not having had a rich father to leave you with a fortune to work with. If you default on loans, then the bank will liquidate your business. If you default on federal taxes then the IRS is the Infernal Ripping Shylock that can take its figurative pound of flesh. Bankers and the IRS have no ear for excuses.

The typical small businessman does not have it easy. Nobody gives him any breaks. Not the banks, not the regulators, and certainly not the taxing authorities.

[Eric the Green]

(01-18-2019, 01:59 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: So, you prefer politicians making backroom deals among themselves instead of being open or transparent as we say and debating issues among themselves in front of the public like they should these days. I mean, do you think Obamacare would have been passed without the backroom deals that resulted in the elimination of the Democratic super majority and the bulk of the GOP establishment as well. Pelosi didn't want to discuss details with Trump in public. She preferred to discuss details in private. Why? I assume that she felt uncomfortable and concerned about Trump hammering her with the truth as it relates to illegal immigration and facts as they relate to illegal immigration and the use of walls and so forth.

Obamacare passed through the Democratic supermajority in 2009-January 2010, and could not have been passed at any other time. The facts as they relate to illegal immigration is that it is substantially down from past administrations and Obama had a handle on it. The issue was a mere gimmick to appeal to prejudice by a demagogue.

Quote:....we (reds) aren't the ones voting to go backwards and return to large scale use of labor to build stuff like the good old days or the idea paying lots of people to sit around and strum themselves while the other half works, pay their own bills and contributes the bulk of the taxes to accommodate their presence and support their welfare lifestyles either. No, I figure we'll opt to go separate ways and opt to move on without the liberals. I'm sure Reddish America will let liberals decide whether a war of liberation will be necessary or whether they'll be willing to let go and go with Europe.

We blues do not say that labor should not be replaced, where it's productive to do so. We say if we do this, then the resulting profits do not belong to just the owners of the machines, but should be distributed to all the workers who make them profitable, and to all people in need. All of society has contributed to this advancement. If the machines save labor, as promised, then it should save labor for workers, and everybody. Robotics means the end of the Republican anti-welfare meme that you guys are SO devoted to, and which is the basis of your votes. Americans will have to let go of the work ethic, since less work is needed, and make sure that the profits from the machines get distributed, and that workers and other creative and enterprising people of all kinds only need to work part time at full pay. That won't mean the end of ethics, or the goal of fulfilling and productive activities, or even of self-reliance. But if the conservative red Reagun/Gingrinch/Bushed/Drumpface Republican voters insist on keeping this outdated anti-welfare meme as the ruling doctrine of our society, then we'd be willing to let you guys go live in your separate Dixieland Heartland, and let us forge ahead with progress by ourselves.

[Classic-Xer]

[quote='Eric the Green' pid='41009' dateline='1547950167']
We blues do not say that labor should not be replaced, where it's productive to do so. We say if we do this, then the resulting profits do not belong to just the owners of the machines, but should be distributed to all the workers who make them profitable, and to all people in need. All of society has contributed to this advancement. If the machines save labor, as promised, then it should save labor for workers, and everybody. Robotics means the end of the Republican anti-welfare meme that you guys are SO devoted to, and which is the basis of your votes. Americans will have to let go of the work ethic, since less work is needed, and make sure that the profits from the machines get distributed, and that workers and other creative and enterprising people of all kinds only need to work part time at full pay. That won't mean the end of ethics, or the goal of fulfilling and productive activities, or even of self-reliance. But if the conservative red Reagun/Gingrinch/Bushed/Drumpface Republican voters insist on keeping this outdated anti-welfare meme as the ruling doctrine of our society, then we'd be willing to let you guys go live in your separate Dixieland Heartland, and let us forge ahead with progress by ourselves.[/quote}


What interest to do you think or believe that you have in all the machinery and profits associated with my business or anyone else's business? The blues are sure making a lot of important business decisions for local business owners/ local employers that are located in their urban areas these days. I mean, allowing people to work thirty hours of work for forty hours of pay is an important business decision for blues to be making for its business owners these days. I mean, doubling or tripling wages of their employees is another important business decision that blues have made for its business owners as well. I'm not sure how long they'll be able to afford doing business that way or how long they'll opt to remain in business or how long people will be able to afford to do business with them with the blues making important business decisions that increases the cost/price associated with the consumers/customers these days. I can see why stuff could get really screwed up/messed up in some blue urban areas and some blue states within a decade or so.

We aren't socialist/fascist yet and I don't see a large portion of America converting/submitting to socialists, Communists or fascists without violence and significant amount of casualties and all kinds of pain and suffering being felt by millions upon millions of people. Blue America on the other hand seems to be getting pretty close to becoming one or the other or a lethal combination of all of them. Honestly, I don't know who is what these days. The fascist seemed to follow or subscribe to the same basic left wing ideological belief as the blues these days. I guess that's an issue for blues to sort out and determine among themselves.

I bet Hitler and his crony's ate well as their utopian world was coming apart at the seams and crumbling down all around them. Does Nancy have a clue as to how powerful  and resilient and determined the real American people are during real crisis's and major wars that matter as far as American survival goes. Your Millie's ain't quite up par with the old GI's. Of coarse, the old GI's didn't really have a choice to vote themselves out of a war or obtain a college deferment to avoid being drafted and being sent to fight a war or the right to vote themselves out of college debt or the right vote themselves out of foreclosure or the right to vote for a free college degree or the right to vote to receive free healthcare or the right to drink at 18 or the right to smoke pot or the right to vote for a guaranteed job that pays a middle income wage. Yes, I have a pretty good idea of what blues are about and a pretty good idea of what kind of government that the blues will need to elect and a pretty good idea of how the utopian blue world will eventually end up as well. I say thanks for the offer but I'm not interested in becoming a blue.[/quote}

[Eric the Green]

(01-20-2019, 01:57 AM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(01-20-2019, 12:07 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(01-19-2019, 09:09 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: We blues do not say that labor should not be replaced, where it's productive to do so. We say if we do this, then the resulting profits do not belong to just the owners of the machines, but should be distributed to all the workers who make them profitable, and to all people in need. All of society has contributed to this advancement. If the machines save labor, as promised, then it should save labor for workers, and everybody. Robotics means the end of the Republican anti-welfare meme that you guys are SO devoted to, and which is the basis of your votes. Americans will have to let go of the work ethic, since less work is needed, and make sure that the profits from the machines get distributed, and that workers and other creative and enterprising people of all kinds only need to work part time at full pay. That won't mean the end of ethics, or the goal of fulfilling and productive activities, or even of self-reliance. But if the conservative red Reagun/Gingrinch/Bushed/Drumpface Republican voters insist on keeping this outdated anti-welfare meme as the ruling doctrine of our society, then we'd be willing to let you guys go live in your separate Dixieland Heartland, and let us forge ahead with progress by ourselves.

What interest to do you think or believe that you have in all the machinery and profits associated with my business or anyone else's business? The blues are sure making a lot of important business decisions for local business owners/ local employers that are located in their urban areas these days. I mean, allowing people to work thirty hours of work for forty hours of pay is an important business decision for blues to be making for its business owners these days. I mean, doubling or tripling wages of their employees is another important business decision that blues have made for its business owners as well. I'm not sure how long they'll be able to afford doing business that way or how long they'll opt to remain in business or how long people will be able to afford to do business with them with the blues making important business decisions that increases the cost/price associated with the consumers/customers these days. I can see why stuff could get really  screwed up/messed up in some blue urban areas and some blue states within a decade or so.

We aren't socialist/fascist yet and I don't see a large portion of America converting/submitting  to socialists, Communists or fascists without violence and significant amount of casualties and all kinds of pain and suffering being felt by millions upon millions of people. Blue America on the other hand seems to be getting pretty close to becoming one or the other or a lethal combination of all of them. Honestly, I don't know who is what these days. The fascist seemed to follow or subscribe to the same basic left wing ideological belief as the blues these days. I guess that's an issue for blues to sort out and determine among themselves.

I bet Hitler and his crony's ate well as their utopian world was coming apart at the seams and crumbling down all around them. Does Nancy have a clue as to how powerful  and resilient and determined  the real  American people are during real crisis's and major wars that matter as far as American survival goes. Your Millie's ain't quite up par with the old GI's. Of coarse, the old GI's didn't really have a choice to vote themselves out of a war or obtain a college deferment to avoid being drafted and being sent to fight a war or the right to vote themselves out of college debt or the right vote themselves out of foreclosure or the right to vote for a free college degree or the right to vote to receive  free healthcare or the right to drink at 18 or the right to smoke pot or the right to vote for a guaranteed job that pays a middle income wage. Yes, I have a pretty good idea of  what blues are about and a pretty good idea of what kind of government that the blues will need to elect  and a pretty good idea of how the utopian blue world will eventually end up as well. I say thanks for the offer but I'm not interested in becoming a blue.[/quote}

Oh well, I thought you were really considering it

No, I was thinking of the large portion of workers who work for big companies who are laying off workers or not paying them well while they replace workers with machines and make a bundle. Small business would be different, if it's not being replaced by machines. The big CEOs can certainly afford to pay their workers more, seeing as they make thousands of times more money for the same hours of work. We blues would have to make allowances and different policies for smaller bosses who have fewer employees and less automation.

[Classic-Xer]

(01-19-2019, 08:02 PM)pbrower2a Wrote:

(01-19-2019, 01:35 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: I don't see a reason to continue this conversation with you at this point. I mean, it's really kind of a waste of personal time that could be spent doing other things that are more constructive that pertain to my life. BTW, I don't admire Trump like you admired Obama. Once again, you fail to see/recognize our very distinct differences.  I just respect him as a businessman, as a father and even as a politician these days.

More power to you. You can do far more good doing HVAC installation and repair than you can do trying to convince liberals that they are completely wrong.

Obama has an excellent legal mind which has made him a fine political leader. Donald Trump is not a good businessman; he is simply fortunate to have been born to a successful businessman and to have been in a real estate owner in a city with exorbitant rents. If he had inherited properties in such places as Detroit or St. Louis he would be flat broke. He has made ventures that have mostly gone under.

There's hardly an easier way to generate profit than to own residential and commercial properties in a city with a chronic and incurable real-estate market. There is no need for accommodating a changing market - just raise the rent even faster than GDP. There is no need to keep up with innovation in product design or manufacturing technology. Innovative marketing? There's more to marketing than putting one's personality onto a product. Financial analysis? That is how Warren Buffett makes his money -- deciding what investment is worth his cash. Donald Trump doesn't have the brains for that. Finding marketable resources like metals and oil is tougher. Donald Trump would be a disaster in the oil industry. Autos? The annual retooling of auto assembly lines to meet changes between model years is beyond his comprehension. Do you think he would have any competence in the area of intellectual property? Definitely not in book publishing, music, or movies. OK, he has had some success offering schlock entertainment, but seemingly anyone can make money offering exploitative bilge to fill time on some network. Do you believe that if he tried his hand in movies that Clint Eastwood, Steven Spielberg, or Ron Howard would have anything to do with him?

You are probably a better businessman than Donald Trump is. You must keep abreast of technical changes in your business. You must convince people that it is wiser to replace an obsolete HVAC system with something newer, perhaps doing some math that others are either too incompetent or too lazy to do to express a decision between sticking with a dying HVAC system and either retrofitting or replacing it.

Capitalists at their best are drivers of economic progress as most people aren't.   But Trump is simply someone who gets away with stiffing contractors as you could never get away with. I suspect that you really are a self-made man, not having had a rich father to leave you with a fortune to work with. If you default on loans, then the bank will liquidate your business. If you default on federal taxes then the IRS is the Infernal Ripping Shylock that can take its figurative pound of flesh. Bankers and the IRS have no ear for excuses.

The typical small businessman does not have it easy. Nobody gives him any breaks. Not the banks, not the regulators, and certainly not the taxing authorities.

Well, I actually spend more time showing others, warning others and convincing others than I spend convincing liberals that they're wrong.

[pbrower2a]

(01-20-2019, 04:27 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Well, I actually spend more time showing others, warning others and convincing others than I spend convincing liberals that they're wrong.

My liberalism results from my premises, which include ethical values.