Presidential election, 2016

[Odin]

(01-13-2017, 02:01 PM)SomeGuy Wrote: Gah, INFJ, ISFP, you people are almost entirely on the opposite side of every category from me.  No wonder you're so often wrong. 

THE BLEEDING-HEART LIBERALS ARE GONNA GET YA!!!

[SomeGuy]

(01-13-2017, 08:50 PM)Odin Wrote:

(01-13-2017, 10:12 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(01-13-2017, 07:51 AM)Odin Wrote: To me the problem is when people's nice, neat "logical", "rational" ideas start getting in the way of the lives of actual human beings. Libertarians and doctrinaire Marxist-Leninists are good examples of this. Architects, urban planners, and sociologists with grand plans of utopian social engineering also run into this problem, it's one of the reasons the GIs Great Society projects went off the rails.

Yep.  I can agree with this.  Damn these humans, always getting in the way of improving society.  

This might also touch upon the iNtuitive / Sensor divide.  Is one interested in the forest, or the trees?

Well, improving society really isn't the problem. The problem is when you get one person or a group or people who think they know "The Way" to Utopia and try to impose it on everyone else without caring what people actually want. The whole "New Left" idea of Participatory Democracy came from the backlash to that.

Although, funnily enough, other segments of the New Left are all about "The Way".  Meet the new boss...

[Odin]

(01-13-2017, 02:04 PM)taramarie Wrote:

(01-13-2017, 02:01 PM)SomeGuy Wrote: Gah, INFJ, ISFP, you people are almost entirely on the opposite side of every category from me.  No wonder you're so often wrong. 

No, you just have a closed mind and cannot see the value we bring to this world. All types are necessary just as the turnings need nomads, civics etc the world needs these personality types too for balance.

I'm pretty sure he was being humorous, Tara!

[SomeGuy]

(01-13-2017, 08:51 PM)Odin Wrote:

(01-13-2017, 02:01 PM)SomeGuy Wrote: Gah, INFJ, ISFP, you people are almost entirely on the opposite side of every category from me.  No wonder you're so often wrong. 

THE BLEEDING-HEART LIBERALS ARE GONNA GET YA!!!

And get their "feelings" all over me.  Gah, somebody pass me a towel! 

[Odin]

(01-13-2017, 02:50 PM)X_4AD_84 Wrote: However, we are also seeing a resurgence of groups that incorporate significant aspects of funky things like classic acoustic or semi acoustic Jazz, classic Blues, classic Soul, as well as Folk and Bluegrass (there are some serious string bands kicking around). So there is a simultaneous fascination with some highly traditional forms.

I have a coworker who listens to a lot of stuff like this and the artists sound pretty young, I need to ask him some artist/band names to look up because the music sounds really good.

[SomeGuy]

I am a Millennial and I listen almost exclusively to bello canto opera, Eastern European folk music, and bluegrass.  Putin is particularly strict on the Eastern European folk music, and I gotta pay the bills somehow. 

[Odin]

(01-13-2017, 03:07 PM)X_4AD_84 Wrote: Scots Irish (and non Scots Irish normed to that culture) are proud and stoic. There is a long history there and in many ways their distrust of "the system" is justified given how it failed them in both the UK and here.

I find it sad how seemingly reactionary that culture seems to have become, a case can be made that the Scots-Irish people of Appalachia created popular democracy in it's modern Western form.

[Eric the Green]

(01-13-2017, 02:13 PM)SomeGuy Wrote:

(01-13-2017, 02:08 PM)taramarie Wrote:

(01-13-2017, 02:06 PM)SomeGuy Wrote:

(01-13-2017, 02:04 PM)taramarie Wrote:

(01-13-2017, 02:01 PM)SomeGuy Wrote: Gah, INFJ, ISFP, you people are almost entirely on the opposite side of every category from me.  No wonder you're so often wrong. 

No, you just have a closed mind and cannot see the value we bring to this world. All types are necessary just as the turnings need nomads, civics etc the world needs these personality types too for balance.

Nah, I'm sticking with "You're wrong!".  It's so much more succinct. 

Thank you for showing your ignorance. Nothing to be proud of.

Speaking of ignorance, the use of emoticons is not simply an involuntary spasm on my part.

Emoticons to me mean: don't take things I say TOO seriously, and I'm mostly mocking myself. Lighten up, and yes, focus on the ideas, not on trying to change personalities or taking personal offense over the fact that others might see things differently.

Yes, I am more in the INFJ/ISFP direction than you, Someguy, though I am actually T as most people who know me can testify. And not necessarily always in a good way, that T of mine. But it's close on the scale in my case. But yes, I am often "wrong" too from the point of view of some EST people.

But types can't be taken too seriously. Many people come out as certain types on the test, and yet have qualities and abilities that seem the opposite. So an emoticon is a good way of saying, so what; it's only a category; generation types, MBTI types, even astrology types, and philosophy types are fun, but don't take them too seriously as applying rigidly.

[SomeGuy]

(01-13-2017, 09:09 PM)Odin Wrote:

(01-13-2017, 03:07 PM)X_4AD_84 Wrote: Scots Irish (and non Scots Irish normed to that culture) are proud and stoic. There is a long history there and in many ways their distrust of "the system" is justified given how it failed them in both the UK and here.

I find it sad how seemingly reactionary that culture seems to have become, a case can be made that the Scots-Irish people of Appalachia created popular democracy in it's modern Western form.

They're also closely attached to the resource extraction industry (particularly coal), just suffering the initial effects of deindustrialization (kinda like the northern black population in maybe the 1970s), and have long been suspicious of outside intervention unless it benefits them directly, and even then it's still suspicious.

It's also long been one of those things about American politics that the Greater Appalachia/poor white part of the Deep South, despite their similar cultures and economic profiles, have long been aligned on the opposite side of the political spectrum from wherever black people are.  They might interact frequently day to day (at least in the greater South), but one group generally gets championed by one segment of the national elite and the other party picks up the other.

[SomeGuy]

(01-13-2017, 09:16 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(01-13-2017, 02:13 PM)SomeGuy Wrote:

(01-13-2017, 02:08 PM)taramarie Wrote:

(01-13-2017, 02:06 PM)SomeGuy Wrote:

(01-13-2017, 02:04 PM)taramarie Wrote: No, you just have a closed mind and cannot see the value we bring to this world. All types are necessary just as the turnings need nomads, civics etc the world needs these personality types too for balance.

Nah, I'm sticking with "You're wrong!".  It's so much more succinct. 

Thank you for showing your ignorance. Nothing to be proud of.

Speaking of ignorance, the use of emoticons is not simply an involuntary spasm on my part.

Emoticons to me mean: don't take things I say TOO seriously, and I'm mostly mocking myself. Lighten up, and yes, focus on the ideas, not on trying to change personalities or taking personal offense over the fact that others might see things differently.

Yes, I am more in the INFJ/ISFP direction than you, Someguy, though I am actually T as most people who know me can testify. And not necessarily always in a good way, that T of mine. But it's close on the scale in my case. But yes, I am often "wrong" too from the point of view of some EST people.

But types can't be taken too seriously. Many people come out as certain types on the test, and yet have qualities and abilities that seem the opposite. So an emoticon is a good way of saying, so what; it's only a category; generation types, MBTI types, even astrology types, and philosophy types are fun, but don't take them too seriously as applying rigidly.

I generally end up being either ENTP or INTP, depending on how I answer one or two questions, and very rarely anything else.  But I don't set much stock in it.  I am baffled how on Earth that was taken seriously, particularly when I was going out of my way to lampshade it.  But I remember being baffled by her reading comprehension when she first showed up, too.  Not too worried about it.

Yeah, I don't think people should get too wrapped up in anything that happens on a message board, and getting too emotional about it is probably a good sign that you need a break.  That's what I did, at least.

That being said, you're still wrong, Eric.  I want you to know that. 

[Eric the Green]

I know, I know

[Eric the Green]

(01-13-2017, 01:37 PM)flbones too Wrote:

(01-13-2017, 06:16 AM)Danilynn Wrote: Pulling up bootstraps:

Yeah, I understand this and do it daily.

I've worked 2 and 3 jobs at a time my whole life. I still work 2 jobs.

I haven't been able and none of my Xer friends either to go out together because all of us are working like this. See we are taking care of our parents AND our kids.

SO if we seem a bit bitchy, it's because we are tired. Some of us are tired and doing all this while fighting life altering medical stuff. Some of us are just dead inside from exhaustion. I'm tired. I'm exhausted. And I know I'll drop dead working.

get out of here with that crap. no one should have to work 2-3 jobs just to make a living. no one.  wake up and stop defending a system that is rigged in favor of the rich. stop it.

Yes. I wonder when the Republican voters get with it, and start bitching at the right targets, instead of defending the folks that are causing the problems for us. It might take a little while, but I'm thinking some of them will. It will only take some of them.

[Eric the Green]

(01-13-2017, 09:28 PM)SomeGuy Wrote:

(01-13-2017, 09:16 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(01-13-2017, 02:13 PM)SomeGuy Wrote:

(01-13-2017, 02:08 PM)taramarie Wrote:

(01-13-2017, 02:06 PM)SomeGuy Wrote: Nah, I'm sticking with "You're wrong!".  It's so much more succinct. 

Thank you for showing your ignorance. Nothing to be proud of.

Speaking of ignorance, the use of emoticons is not simply an involuntary spasm on my part.

Emoticons to me mean: don't take things I say TOO seriously, and I'm mostly mocking myself. Lighten up, and yes, focus on the ideas, not on trying to change personalities or taking personal offense over the fact that others might see things differently.

Yes, I am more in the INFJ/ISFP direction than you, Someguy, though I am actually T as most people who know me can testify. And not necessarily always in a good way, that T of mine. But it's close on the scale in my case. But yes, I am often "wrong" too from the point of view of some EST people.

But types can't be taken too seriously. Many people come out as certain types on the test, and yet have qualities and abilities that seem the opposite. So an emoticon is a good way of saying, so what; it's only a category; generation types, MBTI types, even astrology types, and philosophy types are fun, but don't take them too seriously as applying rigidly.

I generally end up being either ENTP or INTP, depending on how I answer one or two questions, and very rarely anything else.  But I don't set much stock in it.  I am baffled how on Earth that was taken seriously, particularly when I was going out of my way to lampshade it.  But I remember being baffled by her reading comprehension when she first showed up, too.  Not too worried about it.

Yeah, I don't people should get too wrapped up in anything that happens on a message board, and getting too emotional about it is probably a good sign that you need a break.  That's what I did, at least.

That being said, you're still wrong, Eric.  I want you to know that. 

It's funny I end up the same type as Bob Butler and the plurality of folks here, INTP. T by a very small margin, and P moderately. BUT, I Eric Mystic keep company with folks that think of themselves as science geeks. But for many of us borderline F INTPs, we'd like people to remember that an INTP is an architect of ideas, primarily a theorist; and with the strong N like me, it's very intuitive, meaning a preference for generalities and design over empirical sense data; and what might be over what is.

[Warren Dew]

(01-13-2017, 11:03 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(01-13-2017, 01:37 PM)flbones too Wrote:

(01-13-2017, 06:16 AM)Danilynn Wrote: Pulling up bootstraps:

Yeah, I understand this and do it daily.

I've worked 2 and 3 jobs at a time my whole life. I still work 2 jobs.

I haven't been able and none of my Xer friends either to go out together because all of us are working like this. See we are taking care of our parents AND our kids.

SO if we seem a bit bitchy, it's because we are tired. Some of us are tired and doing all this while fighting life altering medical stuff. Some of us are just dead inside from exhaustion. I'm tired. I'm exhausted. And I know I'll drop dead working.

get out of here with that crap. no one should have to work 2-3 jobs just to make a living. no one.  wake up and stop defending a system that is rigged in favor of the rich. stop it.

Yes. I wonder when the Republican voters get with it, and start bitching at the right targets, instead of defending the folks that are causing the problems for us. It might take a little while, but I'm thinking some of them will. It will only take some of them.

Lots are already complaining about illegal immigrants, which are likely the right targets since there's such a close correlation between immigration and the fall of low end wages.  Whether the complaints are adequately directed to people who could do something with it, I don't know.

[gabrielle]

(01-13-2017, 11:50 PM)Warren Dew Wrote:

(01-13-2017, 11:03 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(01-13-2017, 01:37 PM)flbones too Wrote:

(01-13-2017, 06:16 AM)Danilynn Wrote: Pulling up bootstraps:

Yeah, I understand this and do it daily.

I've worked 2 and 3 jobs at a time my whole life. I still work 2 jobs.

I haven't been able and none of my Xer friends either to go out together because all of us are working like this. See we are taking care of our parents AND our kids.

SO if we seem a bit bitchy, it's because we are tired. Some of us are tired and doing all this while fighting life altering medical stuff. Some of us are just dead inside from exhaustion. I'm tired. I'm exhausted. And I know I'll drop dead working.

get out of here with that crap. no one should have to work 2-3 jobs just to make a living. no one.  wake up and stop defending a system that is rigged in favor of the rich. stop it.

Yes. I wonder when the Republican voters get with it, and start bitching at the right targets, instead of defending the folks that are causing the problems for us. It might take a little while, but I'm thinking some of them will. It will only take some of them.

Lots are already complaining about illegal immigrants, which are likely the right targets since there's such a close correlation between immigration and the fall of low end wages.  Whether the complaints are adequately directed to people who could do something with it, I don't know.

So we build the Great Wall of Trump and have taxpayers...er...Mexico pay for it, and then we will graciously be given living wages?

[Bob Butler 54]

(01-13-2017, 11:03 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: Yes. I wonder when the Republican voters get with it, and start bitching at the right targets, instead of defending the folks that are causing the problems for us. It might take a little while, but I'm thinking some of them will. It will only take some of them.

Well, you have got to admit that they soundly rejected their establishment presidential candidates. Unfortunately, they are still buying into the Unravelling ideas. For the most part, Trump promised the same old same old. I've the sense that at least some of the Republican base walked away from the Republican establishment because the business as usual candidates didn't push the old ideas hard enough.

[Mikebert]

(01-13-2017, 11:50 PM)Warren Dew Wrote: Lots are already complaining about illegal immigrants, which are likely the right targets since there's such a close correlation between immigration and the fall of low end wages.  Whether the complaints are adequately directed to people who could do something with it, I don't know.

Well, net entry of illegal immigrants into the US stopped like 8 years ago. Hasn't had much of an effect so far. Building a wall will serve to maintain the status quo at a significant cost. Seems like a waste of money, mandating E-verify would cost less and work better.

Total number of illegals today are about 1 million less than in 2007, which hasn't had much of an effect.  Trump is now saying he wants to deport 2 million, so perhaps a bit more than the imperceptible impact so far.  Has he talked about repealing Hart-Cellar?  That may have some impact.  If he has I haven't heard about it.

I heard or read a rumor that Trump is talking about an across-the-board 10% tariff or something like that.  Is that right?  That's something I'd like the see.

[Mikebert]

(01-14-2017, 06:02 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: Well, you have got to admit that they soundly rejected their establishment presidential candidates.  Unfortunately, they are still buying into the Unravelling ideas.  For the most part, Trump promised the same old same old.  I've the sense that at least some of the Republican base walked away from the Republican establishment because the business as usual candidates didn't push the old ideas hard enough.

The tax cut and deregulation stuff is old hat. But serious discussion of immigration and trade restriction as are new, at least for this cycle.

[Warren Dew]

(01-14-2017, 08:52 AM)Mikebert Wrote:

(01-13-2017, 11:50 PM)Warren Dew Wrote: Lots are already complaining about illegal immigrants, which are likely the right targets since there's such a close correlation between immigration and the fall of low end wages.  Whether the complaints are adequately directed to people who could do something with it, I don't know.

Well, net entry of illegal immigrants into the US stopped like 8 years ago. Hasn't had much of an effect so far. Building a wall will serve to maintain the status quo at a significant cost. Seems like a waste of money, mandating E-verify would cost less and work better.

Total number of illegals today are about 1 million less than in 2007, which hasn't had much of an effect.  Trump is now saying he wants to deport 2 million, so perhaps a bit more than the imperceptible impact so far.  Has he talked about repealing Hart-Cellar?  That may have some impact.  If he has I haven't heard about it.

I heard or read a rumor that Trump is talking about an across-the-board 10% tariff or something like that.  Is that right?  That's something I'd like the see.

I agree that mandating E-verify is more important, at least in the short term.  In fact, mandating E-verify will make so much of a change that it may need to be phased in somehow.  I think its effect on the economy would be roughly the same as changing the minimum wage to the $15-$20 an hour range for places with average cost of living.  We'd see unskilled wages in the range of $10/hour in Mississippi and $25/hour in the richer areas of the coasts.  That's the kind of shock that we might want to phase in over 5 or 10 years.

However, "the wall" is more durable institutionally - a future attorney general could negate mandatory E-verify by failing to enforce it, which is likely given how much the big money hates it - so the wall needs to be built too.  The estimates I've seen - from Democrats who didn't want to build it, so likely high - are in the $20 billion range.  I'm sure we could find $20 billion of fat in our $600 billion defense budget for the wall.  Just switch one Navy squadron of F35s to advanced F18s or something; the Navy doesn't want F35s anyway. And the Army is currently bloated in terms of manpower which could be reduced to make up for ongoing manpower and funding requirements for the wall.

Any across the board tariff is unnecessary and destructive, as I've discussed elsewhere. Changing the tax system to permit repatriation of capital would achieve all of the benefits with none of the costs.

[Anthony '58]

But what if the wall ends up serving the purpose not of keeping illegal immigrants out, but keeping would-be illegal emigrants in?

Reflect on that as Ben "Dathan" Carson - and those of you who have seen The Ten Commandments will know what I'm getting at - sails toward confirmation as HUD secretary. Carson will do all he can to accelerate the gentrefaction - what I call it to make it sound like "putrefaction" - of the cities. And with the illegal aliens expelled, the entire Great Migration of African-Americans to those cities that began with the outbreak of World War I in Europe in 1914 can be reversed very rapidly, with black workers replacing the deported illegals on those farms - a fate that most will attempt to escape by leaving the country.

Furthermore, I'm guessing that when the righties really try to ram Christianity down their throats, the Jews will start bailing as well - and they have a guaranteed place to go, thanks to the Law Of Return. And well-educated LGBTs and urban progressives with college (and often higher) degrees should have no trouble finding a new home either.

And who will be left up s--t creek, senza paddle?

The white working class - who will be working 12 hours a day, six days a week, and coming "home" to barracks with 100 other (wo)men to a single room.

How's that for Jedem das Seine?