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Where there is a large Mexican-American population, the cultural assimilation also goes the other way. Much about Mexican culture is attractive. The food is good, and the music is colorful (OK, Herb Alpert isn't Mexican...) Mexican restaurants often have nice murals... lots of Mexican-American painters imagine themselves as the new Diego Rivera. That's before I talk of the heavy intermarriage.
Mexican-American social life has advantages: in it no man is an island. At the same level of poverty as white and black people in Chicago, Mexican-Americans died at a far lower rate than non-Hispanic poor during a heat wave in Chicago. Mexican-Americans were looking out for their neighbors and relatives in contrast to the norm in non-Hispanic American life.
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated Communist but instead the people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists -- Hannah Arendt.
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01-15-2017, 01:06 PM
(This post was last modified: 01-15-2017, 01:07 PM by SomeGuy.)
(01-15-2017, 11:16 AM)David Horn Wrote: (01-14-2017, 05:44 PM)SomeGuy Wrote: And enough of all of that.
E-Verify, a useful policy, or one more step on the road to the American Reich?
I'm going with "useful tool", but it may prove a very different tool than the proponents expect. If e-verify stands between our fresh food and immigration policy, I'm betting on food.
I dunno, Donald Trump and Jeff Sessions don't much seem like foodies to me. You might be mistaken. But thanks for confirming (once again) some of my long-held beliefs about yuppie liberals and their political positions.
REAL 'Murican: "We need to do somethin' about this ILLEGAL immigration! They's breaking our laws!"
Yuppie Liberal: "Oh no, you can't crack down on that, that's racist! Think of the poor strawberries!"
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Does anyone want Soviet-style internal passports? That is what it would take to fully thwart illegal residence.
They would also make it easier for employers to control employees.... as in "There was a union conference in that town when you went there -- why did you go there?" Or, "So you are taking courses in accounting. Don't you want to remain a domestic servant?"
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated Communist but instead the people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists -- Hannah Arendt.
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01-15-2017, 03:19 PM
(This post was last modified: 01-15-2017, 04:49 PM by SomeGuy.)
Blah, blah, fascism, blah, blah!
E-verify would no more be a sign of incipient fascism/Stalinism/general "bad"-ism than is the fact that I have to show a valid ID to check into a motel.
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Just watched Patriot's Day yesterday, Hollywood's take on the Boston Marathon bombings. Did you know that you can't place a homemade pressure cooker bomb on a busy street without leaving a whole bunch of video images behind on surveillance cameras? Did you know that some people can view a police state with overwhelming surveillance technology as heroic?
The world is definitely changing. It has been definitely changing since the Agricultural Age gave way to the Industrial. I see many crises as being driven in big part by new technology. If nothing else, new groups of elites who make money in a new way are apt to want to trim the influence of the old elites. As a broad rule of thumb, traditionalists attempting to suppress the new technology while clinging to old power structures often don't do very well.
Principled clinging to traditional standards will feel right for lots of folk, but...
That this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom, and that government of the people, by the people, for the people shall not perish from the earth.
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It's a Brave New World, Bob!
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(01-15-2017, 02:34 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: Does anyone want Soviet-style internal passports? That is what it would take to fully thwart illegal residence.
We pretty much already have that with the requirement to have a driver's license to drive. That said, the primary objective I've seen is to thwart illegal employment and crime and use of welfare by illegals, which go beyond mere presence.
(01-15-2017, 03:19 PM)SomeGuy Wrote: E-verify would no more be a sign of incipient fascism/Stalinism/general "bad"-ism as is the fact that I have to show a valid ID to check into a motel.
Indeed. Given we already have a requirement to provide a valid social security number, E-verify really doesn't add to the government intrusion we already have.
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(01-15-2017, 03:44 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: Just watched Patriot's Day yesterday, Hollywood's take on the Boston Marathon bombings. Did you know that you can't place a homemade pressure cooker bomb on a busy street without leaving a whole bunch of video images behind on surveillance cameras? Did you know that some people can view a police state with overwhelming surveillance technology as heroic?
But for the preventive surveillance to be effective, one needs an army of people watching the surveillance cameras. Surveillance cameras not so closely watched can catch something like a pressure cooker placed in a heavily-populated or heavily-traveled place only after the fact.
But what is an unattended pressure cooker doing where there is a crowd? Wouldn't someone unplug it? A pressure cooker with the vents closed makes an excellent bomb -- especially if it has sharp objects within it.
Quote:The world is definitely changing. It has been definitely changing since the Agricultural Age gave way to the Industrial. I see many crises as being driven in big part by new technology. If nothing else, new groups of elites who make money in a new way are apt to want to trim the influence of the old elites. As a broad rule of thumb, traditionalists attempting to suppress the new technology while clinging to old power structures often don't do very well.
Especially in wartime. Technologies of food production can feed armies and their absence can starve an army (Union vs. Confederacy). That is before one discusses logistics, battlefield medicine, and information technology (without which the British would have been just another nation defeated by the Devil's Reich).
Quote:Principled clinging to traditional standards will feel right for lots of folk, but...
... but will a reversion to the ways of the early-industrial age achieve prosperity or even economic equity? Not likely.
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated Communist but instead the people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists -- Hannah Arendt.
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(01-15-2017, 12:05 PM)David Horn Wrote: (01-15-2017, 10:26 AM)Odin Wrote: When people complain about Mexican-Americans "not assimilating" they are talking about the folks in parts of south Texas, SoCal, and the desert SW that had Hispanic populations even before the current wave of immigration and has shared cultural ties with northern Mexico (this is the region Colin Woodard calls "El Norte"). In my personal experience the Mexican-Americans who move out of that region do assimilate normally.
Let's also agree that maintaining cultural heritage practices is not the same as "not assimilating". The whole point of Garrison Keeler's A Prairie Home Companion is the cultural links still in existence by the, in this case, Norwegian settlers who populated the Minnesota prairie in 19th and early 20th century. Can we agree that today's Minnesotans of Norwegian heritage are fully assimilated?
Yep! Though Woodard notes that the reason that Scandinavians mostly settled in the Upper Midwest was because their culture was highly compatible with that of the New Englanders who were the earliest settlers in the Upper Midwest.
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(01-15-2017, 08:33 PM)Odin Wrote: (01-15-2017, 12:05 PM)David Horn Wrote: (01-15-2017, 10:26 AM)Odin Wrote: When people complain about Mexican-Americans "not assimilating" they are talking about the folks in parts of south Texas, SoCal, and the desert SW that had Hispanic populations even before the current wave of immigration and has shared cultural ties with northern Mexico (this is the region Colin Woodard calls "El Norte"). In my personal experience the Mexican-Americans who move out of that region do assimilate normally.
Let's also agree that maintaining cultural heritage practices is not the same as "not assimilating". The whole point of Garrison Keeler's A Prairie Home Companion is the cultural links still in existence by the, in this case, Norwegian settlers who populated the Minnesota prairie in 19th and early 20th century. Can we agree that today's Minnesotans of Norwegian heritage are fully assimilated?
Yep! Though Woodard notes that the reason that Scandinavians mostly settled in the Upper Midwest was because their culture was highly compatible with that of the New Englanders who were the earliest settlers in the Upper Midwest.
Well that and most of the settlers were farmers used to similar climates. You just reread American Nations or something?
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Immigration today just seems an excuse by Trump, Sessions and other such demagogues to use in order to get votes through creating fear. It has no real bearing on the fortunes of our country or the people.
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(01-16-2017, 07:38 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: Immigration today just seems an excuse by Trump, Sessions and other such demagogues to use in order to get votes through creating fear. It has no real bearing on the fortunes of our country or the people.
That's not all of it. Lots of illegals will provide low wage labor with no requirements for benefits. A lot of legals are understandably resentful that the illegals are taking jobs that would otherwise be available. A lot of employers don't want their cheap labor to go away. I agree that some politicians are using hate to get votes, but the fortunes of lots of people are on the line.
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(01-15-2017, 01:06 PM)SomeGuy Wrote: (01-15-2017, 11:16 AM)David Horn Wrote: I'm going with "useful tool", but it may prove a very different tool than the proponents expect. If e-verify stands between our fresh food and immigration policy, I'm betting on food.
I dunno, Donald Trump and Jeff Sessions don't much seem like foodies to me. You might be mistaken. But thanks for confirming (once again) some of my long-held beliefs about yuppie liberals and their political positions.
REAL 'Murican: "We need to do somethin' about this ILLEGAL immigration! They's breaking our laws!"
Yuppie Liberal: "Oh no, you can't crack down on that, that's racist! Think of the poor strawberries!"
My money is on the farmers, who are overwhelmingly Republican these days. Can't get the <insert fruit or vegetable> picked? Scream about lack of access to farm labor.
... and it doesn't have to be arugula or quinoa. Lettuce will do.
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(01-15-2017, 03:44 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: Just watched Patriot's Day yesterday, Hollywood's take on the Boston Marathon bombings. Did you know that you can't place a homemade pressure cooker bomb on a busy street without leaving a whole bunch of video images behind on surveillance cameras? Did you know that some people can view a police state with overwhelming surveillance technology as heroic?
It's not just here ... or even mainly here. the city of London has 25,000 cameras running 24/7
Bob Butler Wrote:The world is definitely changing. It has been definitely changing since the Agricultural Age gave way to the Industrial. I see many crises as being driven in big part by new technology. If nothing else, new groups of elites who make money in a new way are apt to want to trim the influence of the old elites. As a broad rule of thumb, traditionalists attempting to suppress the new technology while clinging to old power structures often don't do very well.
Principled clinging to traditional standards will feel right for lots of folk, but...
An even larger problem: how much change can any system tolerate before it breaks? Our system dates to the Agricultural Age, as you've noted many times. Nothing we have in place today fits that mold anymore. Is that sustainable?
Intelligence is not knowledge and knowledge is not wisdom, but they all play well together.
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(01-15-2017, 04:45 PM)Warren Dew Wrote: (01-15-2017, 02:34 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: Does anyone want Soviet-style internal passports? That is what it would take to fully thwart illegal residence.
We pretty much already have that with the requirement to have a driver's license to drive. That said, the primary objective I've seen is to thwart illegal employment and crime and use of welfare by illegals, which go beyond mere presence.
Has anyone asked to see your papers ... ever?
Warren Dew Wrote: (01-15-2017, 03:19 PM)SomeGuy Wrote: E-verify would no more be a sign of incipient fascism/Stalinism/general "bad"-ism as is the fact that I have to show a valid ID to check into a motel.
Indeed. Given we already have a requirement to provide a valid social security number, E-verify really doesn't add to the government intrusion we already have.
I don't see anything inherently bad about this, but it could be used for bad if the PTB wanted to use it that way. Intent is still more important than the act itself.
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(01-15-2017, 10:41 PM)SomeGuy Wrote: ... You just reread American Nations or something?
Not all knowledge comes from the printed page. Since Odin is a Minnesotan and, as you should surmise, also of Scandinavian extraction, he has first hand knowledge. He even eats lutefisk, I'm told.
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Quote:My money is on the farmers, who are overwhelmingly Republican these days. Can't get the <insert fruit or vegetable> picked? Scream about lack of access to farm labor.
... and it doesn't have to be arugula or quinoa. Lettuce will do.
Who, all five of them?
Hyperbole aside, the present agricultural system is filled with 70 year old men dependent on federal subsidies and price support and illegal labor. It's ripe for disruption anyways, and I don't believe it has the demographic or political clout it once had.
Yes, yes, I know, any changes in present arrangements will lead inevitably to famine / universal poverty / endless reruns of Lena Dunham's naked body on basic television.
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(01-16-2017, 12:31 PM)David Horn Wrote: (01-15-2017, 10:41 PM)SomeGuy Wrote: ... You just reread American Nations or something?
Not all knowledge comes from the printed page. Since Odin is a Minnesotan and, as you should surmise, also of Scandinavian extraction, he has first hand knowledge. He even eats lutefisk, I'm told.
He has referenced Woodard by name multiple times in this and other threads. I don't think that comes from his "Scandinavian extraction".
Why are you responding to this, again?
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(01-16-2017, 12:16 PM)David Horn Wrote: (01-15-2017, 01:06 PM)SomeGuy Wrote: (01-15-2017, 11:16 AM)David Horn Wrote: I'm going with "useful tool", but it may prove a very different tool than the proponents expect. If e-verify stands between our fresh food and immigration policy, I'm betting on food.
I dunno, Donald Trump and Jeff Sessions don't much seem like foodies to me. You might be mistaken. But thanks for confirming (once again) some of my long-held beliefs about yuppie liberals and their political positions.
REAL 'Murican: "We need to do somethin' about this ILLEGAL immigration! They's breaking our laws!"
Yuppie Liberal: "Oh no, you can't crack down on that, that's racist! Think of the poor strawberries!"
My money is on the farmers, who are overwhelmingly Republican these days. Can't get the <insert fruit or vegetable> picked? Scream about lack of access to farm labor.
... and it doesn't have to be arugula or quinoa. Lettuce will do.
I don't know of many farmers (Republican voters) who still rely on people (manual labor) to harvest their crops (wheat, corn, soybeans, potatoes, so on).
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(01-16-2017, 12:31 PM)David Horn Wrote: (01-15-2017, 10:41 PM)SomeGuy Wrote: ... You just reread American Nations or something?
Not all knowledge comes from the printed page. Since Odin is a Minnesotan and, as you should surmise, also of Scandinavian extraction, he has first hand knowledge. He even eats lutefisk, I'm told.
True, I'm a Minnesotan who isn't of Scandinavian heritage. I'm a mixture of French Canadian, English and Bohemian heritages.
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