Bipartisan Senate group proposes ‘no fly, no buy’ gun measure

[Bob Butler 54]

(10-11-2018, 01:06 AM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(10-11-2018, 12:24 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(10-10-2018, 01:42 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: If you dislike fascism, you probably will not like Communism in practice. Life is a privilege, liberty is non-existent, and the pursuit of happiness is sheer folly under Communism, fascism, Ba'athism, or ISIS.

For most of these reasons, you should understand why I despise Donald Trump as President of the United States.

I'd add socialism to the list of terms one should avoid as well. I think liberals/blues fail to understand/accept the reality that Hitler and the Nazi party were elected Democratically. I don't think Democratic voters understand that the beloved party of old associated with their parents and grand parents is no longer the party that represents the interests of the common man/ regular folks these days. Blues should expect the current trend to continue until the political/ideological lines solidify. What happens then? Blue America finds out what it was like to live in Yugoslavia during the time of its demise. I agree with the view of Eric Holder, when the other side stoops low, KICK THEM/PUNISH THEM. I'm glad to see that arrogant mother fucker is now starting to view and see things OUR WAY too. It's not going to be long before its going to be open season on all blues. You see, we aren't pissed yet. We are aggravated, disgusted and getting more upset but we aren't pissed yet because we still have faith in the American system.

Trump was elected in much the same way that Hitler was. Both got a minority of the votes. Trump was installed by virtue of the electoral college, the institution created to keep the people from voting, and as an incentive to get the slave states in the union since blacks were only 3/5 people. Also, by virtue of vote suppression laws of various kinds. Hitler was installed in office by a plot by conservatives to install him as chancellor to forestall a left government, thinking they could control him since his party was not in the majority in parliament. But when his brown shirts set fire to the Reichstag, Hitler used this "trumped" up incident to get an enabling law passed, which gave him expanded powers.

Democratic voters understand that the beloved GOP of their parents and grand parents no longer represents the interests of regular folks these days. The Republican Party represents ONLY the interests of the rich, and uses the prejudices of racists and semi-racists and religious fanatics, which are a large proportion of the voters in red states, which in turn are disproportionately way over-represented in the electoral college and the senate, to support the greed of our corporate masters. We are already finding out what happens when political and ideological lines solidify. The people get screwed over royally. And that's what's happening today.

We blues are aggravated, disgusted and getting more upset but we aren't pissed yet because we still have faith in the American system. But speaking for myself, I am already pissed off and have been for some time. We are being kicked and punished just for speaking out. This last 2 weeks have probably put me a lot farther toward the pissed-off level, and my faith in the American system has about run out.

Well, I am glad that if you two can agree on anything, it is on dislike of the political establishments.  The reds cannot nominate one of their own these days.  The blues can, but lost the general election.  Now, if you only were able to listen well enough to work together...

[Classic-Xer]

(10-10-2018, 08:28 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: The elites, one group of elites, have always dominated.  There was the hereditary nobility of the Agricultural Age.  They moved into the communists and fascists, keeping autocracy but welcoming modern industry.  There were also the robber barons.  Where the robber barons fought the kings and land owning nobility, promises were made to the People to give the robber barons power.  We live with the imperfections of those deals.

The difference is that in a democratic civilization the politicians have to fool somebody.  The 1% has to get something like a majority, which they do with patriotic slogans, the slave compromises, and hiding behind slogans such as "small government".  All they need is good sounding reasons to do bad things and they can maintain power.

You would like to think that Lincoln was right, that you can't fool all of the people all of the time.  I prefer to think of the rural folk as stubborn but not stupid.  Every four score and seven years, I am used to people seeing through some of the lies, of things getting a little better.

Autocracies such as those run by the kings, Hitler, Stalin, Mao and their ilk rule by fear to a great extent.  They fooled nobody in the long term.  They didn't have to.

You do know that "small government" actually refers to those who believe in/prefer to have a limited government. You do know that your views are actually more in line with those who are on the small government side these days. Dude, a large country with a large population will most likely have a big government like the one we have in place. Yes, there are some people who don't see the value of having an interstate freeway system in place. How many people? Not enough to matter to me. You can bring them up and use them for an argument but I'm not going to pay much attention to your concerns about their views or waste must time arguing with you over the views of some who are viewed as a non concern by me.

[Classic-Xer]

(10-11-2018, 01:34 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: Well, I am glad that if you two can agree on anything, it is on dislike of the political establishments.  The reds cannot nominate one of their own these days.  The blues can, but lost the general election.  Now, if you only were able to listen well enough to work together...

I'm not a member of the GOP,  I'm an independent Republican voter. What's the chances of a guy with Asperger's and a guy with no brain disorders being able to listen, understand and accept one another other well enough to be able to work together?

[Bob Butler 54]

(10-11-2018, 03:43 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(10-11-2018, 01:34 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: Well, I am glad that if you two can agree on anything, it is on dislike of the political establishments.  The reds cannot nominate one of their own these days.  The blues can, but lost the general election.  Now, if you only were able to listen well enough to work together...

I'm not a member of the GOP,  I'm an independent Republican voter. What's the chances of a guy with Asperger's and a guy with no brain disorders being able to listen, understand and accept one another other well enough to be able to work together?

The problem in not the Asperger's.  The problem is that too many people are locked into world views that are designed and abused by various establishments.  Both party's politicians are more ready to accept robber baron legalized bribes that to do their best to serve the People, and the People half know it.

Things will get worse until the People say enough.

[Eric the Green]

(10-11-2018, 01:34 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(10-11-2018, 01:06 AM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(10-11-2018, 12:24 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(10-10-2018, 01:42 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: If you dislike fascism, you probably will not like Communism in practice. Life is a privilege, liberty is non-existent, and the pursuit of happiness is sheer folly under Communism, fascism, Ba'athism, or ISIS.

For most of these reasons, you should understand why I despise Donald Trump as President of the United States.

I'd add socialism to the list of terms one should avoid as well. I think liberals/blues fail to understand/accept the reality that Hitler and the Nazi party were elected Democratically. I don't think Democratic voters understand that the beloved party of old associated with their parents and grand parents is no longer the party that represents the interests of the common man/ regular folks these days. Blues should expect the current trend to continue until the political/ideological lines solidify. What happens then? Blue America finds out what it was like to live in Yugoslavia during the time of its demise. I agree with the view of Eric Holder, when the other side stoops low, KICK THEM/PUNISH THEM. I'm glad to see that arrogant mother fucker is now starting to view and see things OUR WAY too. It's not going to be long before its going to be open season on all blues. You see, we aren't pissed yet. We are aggravated, disgusted and getting more upset but we aren't pissed yet because we still have faith in the American system.

Trump was elected in much the same way that Hitler was. Both got a minority of the votes. Trump was installed by virtue of the electoral college, the institution created to keep the people from voting, and as an incentive to get the slave states in the union since blacks were only 3/5 people. Also, by virtue of vote suppression laws of various kinds. Hitler was installed in office by a plot by conservatives to install him as chancellor to forestall a left government, thinking they could control him since his party was not in the majority in parliament. But when his brown shirts set fire to the Reichstag, Hitler used this "trumped" up incident to get an enabling law passed, which gave him expanded powers.

Democratic voters understand that the beloved GOP of their parents and grand parents no longer represents the interests of regular folks these days. The Republican Party represents ONLY the interests of the rich, and uses the prejudices of racists and semi-racists and religious fanatics, which are a large proportion of the voters in red states, which in turn are disproportionately way over-represented in the electoral college and the senate, to support the greed of our corporate masters. We are already finding out what happens when political and ideological lines solidify. The people get screwed over royally. And that's what's happening today.

We blues are aggravated, disgusted and getting more upset but we aren't pissed yet because we still have faith in the American system. But speaking for myself, I am already pissed off and have been for some time. We are being kicked and punished just for speaking out. This last 2 weeks have probably put me a lot farther toward the pissed-off level, and my faith in the American system has about run out.

Well, I am glad that if you two can agree on anything, it is on dislike of the political establishments.  The reds cannot nominate one of their own these days.  The blues can, but lost the general election.  Now, if you only were able to listen well enough to work together...

Words can be cleverly used to confuse, as Galen did when he said I admitted that the boomers screwed up everything. You say that we agree on the dislike of the establishments. Unfortunately, the establishment that I dislike, is the one he likes, and the establishment he dislikes, is the one I like. It is just Dem vs Rep per se. Oh well, nice try. But this is a 4T and conflicts will only be resolved with a fight and a victory by one side or the other. His side is winning for now. We'll see. It will be 10 years before it's over, and it may not even be over then (but pretty well-decided).

[pbrower2a]

(10-11-2018, 03:43 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(10-11-2018, 01:34 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: Well, I am glad that if you two can agree on anything, it is on dislike of the political establishments.  The reds cannot nominate one of their own these days.  The blues can, but lost the general election.  Now, if you only were able to listen well enough to work together...

I'm not a member of the GOP,  I'm an independent Republican voter. What's the chances of a guy with Asperger's and a guy with no brain disorders being able to listen, understand and accept one another other well enough to be able to work together?

Asperger's syndrome does not affect my politics except to accentuate a vested interest in putting an end to the Trump era as early as possible. In any event, mocking the handicapped is horrible behavior, evidence of a lack of empathy, tact, taste, and morals. It is in the same zone of moral rottenness as the President mocking the late Senator John McCain for having been a prisoner of war of a thug regime (North Vietnam), a mockery that I find disgusting for reasons similar to those of mocking a reporter with autism. No, having Asperger's is nothing like being under the custody of a brutal regime. I do not need to be a former POW to recognize mockery of the handicapped or a victim of mistreatment as a POW is abominable.

Someone with Asperger's could be a conservative if most things go right. It's almost an asset in some economic activities if one adjusts appropriately. But nobody has an excuse for mocking people with mental disorders (including PTSD common among military veterans) or any obvious handicap (blindness, paraplegia, limb loss, deafness, senility), or debilitating diseases.

There is no alternative to people acting with basic decency toward those less fortunate.

I look at someone with limb loss or paraplegia and I can only think "there but for the Grace of God go I". Dementia, Parkinsonism, and cancer scare me. We are all but one encounter with a very bad driver from being crippled for life.

[Bob Butler 54]

CNN Wrote:"It feels like a nightmare," Linda Albrecht, a councilwoman in Mexico Beach, Florida, said of the catastrophic damage in her town. "Somebody needs to come up and shake you and wake you up."

Yep.

[Bob Butler 54]

(10-11-2018, 05:14 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: There is no alternative to people acting with basic decency toward those less fortunate.

Well, no. It is part of the red mind set to see only themselves and their tribe. It is what Kinser calls tribal thinking. You care only about yourselves and your own and do not care about what you call basic decency. You reject the idea that all men are created equal, and focus on people most like you. They see nothing wrong with it. Indeed, various elites have worked it just fine for as long as civilization has been going on.

Granted, we see some of the worst examples. Appealing to morality just does not touch some. Swing and a miss.

This is much of what I mean about values shift occurring with a crisis, about how it is easy to see that kings and slaves must fall to the Enlightenment "all men are created equal", but it is less easy to see how the current conservatives are equally wrong in resisting the new values. Still, every once in a while, values do change.

[Bob Butler 54]

(10-11-2018, 05:04 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: Words can be cleverly used to confuse, as Galen did when he said I admitted that the boomers screwed up everything. You say that we agree on the dislike of the establishments. Unfortunately, the establishment that I dislike, is the one he likes, and the establishment he dislikes, is the one I like. It is just Dem vs Rep per se. Oh well, nice try.

I do try.

(10-11-2018, 05:04 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: But this is a 4T and conflicts will only be resolved with a fight and a victory by one side or the other. His side is winning for now. We'll see. It will be 10 years before it's over, and it may not even be over then (but pretty well-decided).

Again, we may be seeing a new age.  4T conflicts may be an Industrial Age thing.  Democracy in some cultures has so much replaced war as a way of settling divides that we could well see something like the Consciousness Revolution settle what used to be settled by war. Remember September 11th, when Republican and Democratic politicians paired up and loudly proclaimed that violence was not the way to settle political differences?  In this case extremists looking for war without bothering to check the spiral of violence will just look silly, or be ignored as extremists generally are.  There is an assumption that a total flip of the see saw is just a presidential election or two away.  Why go extreme if that is true?

[Galen]

(10-11-2018, 05:04 AM)Eric the Obtuse Wrote: Words can be cleverly used to confuse, as Galen did when he said I admitted that the boomers screwed up everything. You say that we agree on the dislike of the establishments. Unfortunately, the establishment that I dislike, is the one he likes, and the establishment he dislikes, is the one I like. It is just Dem vs Rep per se. Oh well, nice try. But this is a 4T and conflicts will only be resolved with a fight and a victory by one side or the other. His side is winning for now. We'll see. It will be 10 years before it's over, and it may not even be over then (but pretty well-decided).

Only complete idiot would think this because, among other things, since I wish that government was much smaller and less powerful.  Only a complete moron such as yourself would think that since the very people you whine about use government regulation to shut out smaller competitors in favor of established players.  In most respects I agree with Ron Paul and anyone who thinks that he is an establishment player has to be completely out of their mind.  By a strange coincidence this is an accurate description of Eric the Obtuse.

[David Horn]

(10-10-2018, 01:44 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(10-10-2018, 12:14 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: The political compass and the Nolan grid pretty well illustrate those two axes; they are equally important. 

Well, I for one would rather live under a Republican president than under your typical dictator.

We're in cross-over territory at the moment, so it's moot for now.

[David Horn]

(10-11-2018, 12:24 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: I'd add socialism to the list of terms one should avoid as well. I think liberals/blues fail to understand/accept the reality that Hitler and the Nazi party were elected Democratically. I don't think Democratic voters understand that the beloved party of old associated with their parents and grand parents is no longer the party that represents the interests of the common man/ regular folks these days. Blues should expect the current trend to continue until the political/ideological lines solidify. What happens then? Blue America finds out what it was like to live in Yugoslavia during the time of its demise. I agree with the view of Eric Holder, when the other side stoops low, KICK THEM/PUNISH THEM. I'm glad to see that arrogant mother fucker is now starting to view and see things OUR WAY too. It's not going to be long before its going to be open season on all blues. You see, we aren't pissed yet. We are aggravated, disgusted and getting more upset but we aren't pissed yet because we still have faith in the American system.

Let me see if I have this right.  You feel that outright political warfare is fine, but you're upset that both sides are playing (which they really aren't … yet).  You oppose socialism, but seem to have no idea what you are opposing, because, you assume, that the common folks will get screwed by the socialists.  Can I assume you think the capitalists won't screw average folks … all historical evidence to the contrary?

What am I missing here?

[pbrower2a]

(10-11-2018, 06:21 AM)Galen the Quack Wrote:

(10-11-2018, 05:04 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: Words can be cleverly used to confuse, as Galen did when he said I admitted that the boomers screwed up everything. You say that we agree on the dislike of the establishments. Unfortunately, the establishment that I dislike, is the one he likes, and the establishment he dislikes, is the one I like. It is just Dem vs Rep per se. Oh well, nice try. But this is a 4T and conflicts will only be resolved with a fight and a victory by one side or the other. His side is winning for now. We'll see. It will be 10 years before it's over, and it may not even be over then (but pretty well-decided).

Only (a) complete idiot would think this because,

Boomers have been on the whole inept in bringing about technological change because so many have their minds in the aether, and they may be the worst generation of business executives in modern America without having such an excuse (as had the Gilded, who were innovative entrepreneurs) of having created the material basis of prosperity. Many are the sorts who fit the metaphorical description of having been born on third base and believing that they hit a triple -- and they self-select for people who believe much the same about themselves to be leaders. By doing so they are throwing away much talent and ensuring that top leadership in America is often mediocre -- like Trump.   

Quote:among other things, since I wish that government was much smaller and less powerful.

No, you seem to want a government that responds only to the whims of the rich and powerful and neglects all else.

Quote:Only a complete moron such as yourself would think that since the very people you whine about use government regulation to shut out smaller competitors in favor of established players.

[/quote]

 
1. The Silent had little proclivity to start new businesses other than professional practices (lucrative from the start but with little possibility of job growth.

When I think of Silent entrepreneurs I think of Hugh Hefner (porn), Michael Milken (insider trading), Ross Perot (government contracting), T. Boone Pickens (oil wildcatting), Carl Icahn and Warren Buffett (investment banking without the investment bank), and Dave Thomas (fast food). There is a huge lag between the formation of small businesses and the establishment of economic conditions conducive to personal advancement and job growth in successful businesses.

2. Small business is where the innovation is. The federal tax code creates a nearly-flat tax that treats General Electric and some successful cottage industry much the same. The tax system that we have favors vertical integration and monopolization. I see the consolidation of much of banking, retail, and especially manufacturing... with job loss for working stiffs. Giant business develops insensitive and unresponsive bureaucracies that seek to impose their will upon customers, compelling people to make do or do without.

Quote:In most respects I agree with Ron Paul and anyone who thinks that he is an establishment player has to be completely out of their mind.  By a strange coincidence this is an accurate description of Eric the Green.

I can't quite parse that due to the ambiguous reference in the sentence..

[Eric the Green]

Ron Paul is an establishment booster par excellance, as is his son. They are social darwinists who allow greedy businessmen to do anything they want in the name of freedom and lower taxes. Result: control of society by a wealthy and powerful few.

[Eric the Green]

(10-11-2018, 05:48 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(10-11-2018, 05:04 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: Words can be cleverly used to confuse, as Galen did when he said I admitted that the boomers screwed up everything. You say that we agree on the dislike of the establishments. Unfortunately, the establishment that I dislike, is the one he likes, and the establishment he dislikes, is the one I like. It is just Dem vs Rep per se. Oh well, nice try.

I do try.

(10-11-2018, 05:04 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: But this is a 4T and conflicts will only be resolved with a fight and a victory by one side or the other. His side is winning for now. We'll see. It will be 10 years before it's over, and it may not even be over then (but pretty well-decided).

Again, we may be seeing a new age.  4T conflicts may be an Industrial Age thing.  Democracy in some cultures has so much replaced war as a way of settling divides that we could well see something like the Consciousness Revolution settle what used to be settled by war.  Remember September 11th, when Republican and Democratic politicians paired up and loudly proclaimed that violence was not the way to settle political differences?  In this case extremists looking for war without bothering to check the spiral of violence will just look silly, or be ignored as extremists generally are.  There is an assumption that a total flip of the see saw is just a presidential election or two away.  Why go extreme if that is true?

I am puzzled by this post. After Sept. 11, politicians and pundits pressed for war, and then we went to war, and then went to war in another country too just for good measure, even though it had nothing to do with Sept. 11. Violence was the way to settle our political differences with those Asian countries. And it still continues.

Right now, we are headed toward a violent civil war, because the extreme right wing has used mostly-legal but unfair tactics to seize power in a country in which they are not the majority, and are ruthless in their methods. They just prohibited Native Americans from voting in North Dakota because they don't have a residence address, thus helping the extremists to hold power in the senate right after placing another extremist on the Supreme Court who will take away our rights, except the right to blow people away with guns. This will arouse more people on the left to act out violently, because there is no democratic way to get any justice or progress for the people. 

And there are similar problems in other countries. It may end up as a milder 4T, as it has been so far, but right now it looks like another violent and severe 4T is on the horizon. As you know, we are 1850s redux, and civil war had not broken out yet in 1854 either, but that's where we are. And even if this 4T is not too violent, it is still a conflict as I said, and will be won politically by one side or the other, not end in a compromise which settles divides. We are too far divided for us to settle our disputes without political conflict. The people will have to wake up and fight back in this 4T, or they lose this country forever.

You don't get dibs on the term new age. There will be no new age without the new age movement that brings back spirit into our consciousness, instead of leaving us in a Newtonian and Darwinian world based on the kind of mechanical causation concepts that gave us the industrial age. Only higher consciousness can really bring us into a new age beyond the industrial one.

And as you point out, this isn't even a conflict between those in the industrial and post-industrial ages, because our right-wing opponents are still in the Agricultural Age.

[Eric the Green]

(10-11-2018, 05:22 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

CNN Wrote:"It feels like a nightmare," Linda Albrecht, a councilwoman in Mexico Beach, Florida, said of the catastrophic damage in her town. "Somebody needs to come up and shake you and wake you up."

Yep.

The people of Florida, Georgia and the Carolinas voted for the catastrophe they are facing. It was right on the ballot, and they voted for it. Yup, they need to wake up.

I noticed that I let this comment of yours slip by. " the red establishment can't elect one of its own" or words to that effect. Yes they can, and did. Trump is one of their own on steroids. He is and already was the most famous example of the red establishment.

Another interesting fact, is that the voters of Montana elected a congressman despite the fact that he punched and injured a reporter. And our wonderful senate confirmed a right-wing justice who had pinned a girl to the bed and covered her mouth. Violence is perfectly acceptable to the right-wing that rules our country. Not to mention it's OK with them if we go to Iraq and kill 400,000 people for no reason at all. And they allow gun violence that kills thousands and thousands each year. Violence means nothing to them at all.

[Galen]

(10-11-2018, 06:49 PM)Eric the Obtuse Wrote: Ron Paul is an establishment booster par excellance, as is his son. They are social darwinists who allow greedy businessmen to do anything they want in the name of freedom and lower taxes. Result: control of society by a wealthy and powerful few.

Yes, this is why he was the sole No vote so many times that they called him Doctor No.  Hardly sounds like an establishment player.  How much do you really know about him?  It sounds like almost nothing.

[Classic-Xer]

(10-11-2018, 11:26 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(10-11-2018, 12:24 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: I'd add socialism to the list of terms one should avoid as well. I think liberals/blues fail to understand/accept the reality that Hitler and the Nazi party were elected Democratically. I don't think Democratic voters understand that the beloved party of old associated with their parents and grand parents is no longer the party that represents the interests of the common man/ regular folks these days. Blues should expect the current trend to continue until the political/ideological lines solidify. What happens then? Blue America finds out what it was like to live in Yugoslavia during the time of its demise. I agree with the view of Eric Holder, when the other side stoops low, KICK THEM/PUNISH THEM. I'm glad to see that arrogant mother fucker is now starting to view and see things OUR WAY too. It's not going to be long before its going to be open season on all blues. You see, we aren't pissed yet. We are aggravated, disgusted and getting more upset but we aren't pissed yet because we still have faith in the American system.

Let me see if I have this right.  You feel that outright political warfare is fine, but you're upset that both sides are playing (which they really aren't … yet).  You oppose socialism, but seem to have no idea what you are opposing, because, you assume, that the common folks will get screwed by the socialists.  Can I assume you think the capitalists won't screw average folks … all historical evidence to the contrary?

What am I missing here?

Yes, I feel that outright political warfare is appropriate. Have you ever seen what happens to some liberal dickhead who goes off in a bar or at a party? I have and it's not pretty. I wouldn't want to be the blue dickhead who finds themselves at odds with an American Red with no Democratic support because they're viewed as being such dickheads. Dude, I didn't get to the position that I'm at today by being nice, playing nice and trying to be friends with liberals/blues/progressives. Ask yourself this question, how thick is the Democratic barrier these days. I broke through that protective barrier many years ago and the blues found themselves losing ground, losing popularity and losing support ever since. Look around, you're down to less than a handful vs me and whoever else who wants to pitch in and do their part opposing the blues these days. I remember the day when regular Democrats and left leaning libertarians couldn't say shit or say anything bad and say anything they disliked about the blues in public. I changed that during my stint posting as KIA.

[pbrower2a]

(10-11-2018, 12:24 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(10-10-2018, 01:42 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: If you dislike fascism, you probably will not like Communism in practice. Life is a privilege, liberty is non-existent, and the pursuit of happiness is sheer folly under Communism, fascism, Ba'athism, or ISIS.

For most of these reasons, you should understand why I despise Donald Trump as President of the United States.

I'd add socialism to the list of terms one should avoid as well.

Socialism is a political curse-word in America. That is unique to America. If one tries to glorify the word in America one usually gets dirty looks. If by socialism one means social democracy, then many who hear the  program without identifying it as socialism like the idea. So if you are telling the children of some farm laborers that they could attend college free of charge or their parents that their kids could get good medical treatment at no cost, then it might be popular. Of course there is no such thing as a free lunch, so social democracy means higher taxes. It also means more opportunity. In practice we have severe inequality of economic result and class barriers to advancement as unstated objectives of the heirs and executives who excel at grabbing whatever they want. For them, maximal profit (their objective) comes with the denial of opportunity and the waste of talent. 

Communism, fascism, Ba'athism, and ISIS are human tragedy.

Quote:I think liberals/blues fail to understand/accept the reality that Hitler and the Nazi party were elected Democratically.

Myth. The Hugenberg-Papen government wanted to avoid an election  and chose to go with Hitler because he seemed like someone who would create fewer problems. Hitler sliced the Communists out of public life as promised -- and also removed the Social Democrats who believed in democracy as well as an activist government on behalf of German toilers then the lowest-paid industrial workers in Europe except for Russia.  Make 45% of the electorate irrelevant because it is too far left for the tastes of the economic elites, and political life goes far to the Right... which is what America's economic elites want. Then lop off conservatives who put democracy above enrichment of the economic elites, and one has fascism.

OK, Trump seems unlikely to set up torture chambers and concentration camps, but we know what the Right wants -- including the obliteration of labor unions. The right-wing ideal for labor-management relations is that the owners and bosses dominate economic life and decide what workers need and what is available to consumers -- maximal productivity for minimal pay.

Quote:I don't think Democratic voters understand that the beloved party of old associated with their parents and grand parents is no longer the party that represents the interests of the common man/ regular folks these days.

America used to be 'whiter' and more formally Protestant. It won't go that way again. Demographic reality is irreversible now. For one thing, the old bogie of miscegenation already makes 'white' identity less important. to be sure, it is not so much between whites and blacks that so appalled the Klan as it is whites marrying Asians and not-so-clearly-white Latinos. You must also remember that almost all American blacks have significant white ancestry, and the smaller the black ancestry, the more likely that a person is to marry someone white. This said, people proud to be white are utterly wrong. Maybe one can be legitimately proud of some European heritage liked to a culture. If one is proud of connections to the Old Country, let us say to the antiquarian heritage of Greece or to the musical heritage of the Czechs, then that is fine. Proud to be white? One is proud more of not being other things.

This said, I pick and choose. I would guess that my musical taste would fit in well in Prague, and my artistic taste would fit Paris.

Quote:Blues should expect the current trend to continue until the political/ideological lines solidify. What happens then? Blue America finds out what it was like to live in Yugoslavia during the time of its demise.

...and so does "Red America". It won't be attractive either way. Tribal politics is ugly, cruel, and empty. This said, anyone who wants any equivalent of a Srebrenica massacre anywhere should know that his fate for bringing about such is a prison cell.

Quote:I agree with the view of Eric Holder, when the other side stoops low, KICK THEM/PUNISH THEM. I'm glad to see that arrogant mother (vile word redacted) is now starting to view and see things OUR WAY too.

Eric Holder is still an Obama man, a law-and-order man with no delusion that crime results from any oppression. Of course you must remember that 'community activists' like Obama had to figure out who the good people in the distressed areas are and who the rotten people are, and try to do good for the good people. The bad people stick knives in the backs of people naive enough to believe that expressions of inter-ethnic solidarity so that the bad people can get some heroin with the proceeds of a robbery, or perhaps some sexual indulgence through rape. The good people are good despite it all, and deserve some help.

The Hard Right has nothing to offer the good people in our distressed urban areas. It is only a matter of time before the good people in rural areas learn much the same thing. When that is over we will have another New Deal-style coalition.  

Quote:It's not going to be long before its going to be open season on all blues. You see, we aren't pissed yet. We are aggravated, disgusted and getting more upset but we aren't pissed yet because we still have faith in the American system.

We Blues have you figured out. We have read Nineteen Eighty-Four and recognize that debasement of language and rejection of logic can create only tragedy. Donald Trump is doing to the English language what Hitler's henchmen did to the language of Goethe and Schiller and what Stalin's henchmen did to the language of Dostoevsky and Tolstoy -- turning words into gibberish at best and lies at the worst.

You are not dealing with a "cultural Marxist" when you debate me. You are dealing with someone more dangerous to your agenda -- a classicist. I recognize a great trove of cultural achievement against which contemporary achievements can face aesthetic judgment. Wise people still read Plato. Donald Trump reminds me of villains in the Bible. Michelangelo, Velazquez, and Rubens remain relevant. I can speak of Bach and Mozart in the present tense. That is not to say that I cannot recognize greatness from outside 'my' heritage. Hokusai holds out well. Yes, cinema is a legitimate art form, and standards are already emerging.

Basically, if one is to break the rules, then one must have a good reason for doing so. "My gut feelings" are not good enough. An expression that simply says "I am horny" or "I have constipation" is not good enough. I do a little painting, and there are things about myself that I cannot hide. I like to believe that I break enough rules to be interesting but not enough to be absurd.

[Bob Butler 54]

(10-12-2018, 12:27 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Yes, I feel that outright political warfare is appropriate. Have you ever seen what happens to some liberal dickhead who goes off in a bar or at a party? I have and it's not pretty. I wouldn't want to be the blue dickhead who finds themselves at odds with an American Red with no Democratic support because they're viewed as being such dickheads. Dude, I didn't get to the position that I'm at today by being nice, playing nice and trying to be friends with liberals/blues/progressives. Ask yourself this question, how thick is the Democratic barrier these days. I broke through that protective barrier many years ago and the blues found themselves losing ground, losing popularity and losing support ever since. Look around, you're down to less than a handful vs me and whoever else who wants to pitch in and do their part opposing the blues these days. I remember the day when regular Democrats and left leaning libertarians couldn't say shit or say anything bad and say anything they disliked about the blues in public. I changed that during my stint posting as KIA.

Eric quite often mixes his mystical way of looking at things with his politics.  I generally don't oppose or reject him as his world view regarding things mystical is so different from mine that it does no good.  You waste your time instead on the gun question.

Living in Massachusetts, I can expect a good solid conversation about liberal or progressive politics with most people.  There are many common shared assumptions.  Not so with a red extremist.  A normal Massachusetts person will likely turn his ears off in rejection.  There are few like me who would take the perspective seriously.

Now I have no doubt you world view will collide with the blues, that they will soon turn you off, tune you out, not take you seriously.  That you communicated, that you won your argument, that you convinced people, that I do doubt.  Like Eric's astrology, the common response is to roll one eyes and walk away from the crazy person.  Members of both factions are generally too stubborn to change.  That and your views are so tainted with absurdities as no one would take things based on the absurdities to be anything but absurd.