Who Can Beat Trump?

[David Horn]

(09-19-2018, 06:57 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: You're need to pack courts as means to bypass the democratic process says what about actual size of the blues so called majority. If you haven't figured this out, I've been able to differentiate and I have been differentiating between the traditional Democratic base voters and the blue/green voters who are using the Democratic party. My beef is not with and has never been with the traditional Democratic voters. The Republican beef is not with them either. The beef is with the leadership of the voters who identify with the color blue.

You see, the blue leadership doesn't seem to actually believe in democracy or the US Constitution. I dunno, what would you call a system of government that's basically ruled by a group of liberals, a panel of liberal judges who aren't elected officials who have been given the power to eliminate peoples rights with the stroke of a pen. I think every Democratic voter should be viewing and following our exchanges so they understand what's at stake for them if they allow this liberal/ blue trend and the liberal/ blue dominance to continue within the Democratic party. Bob seems to bounce back & forth between traditional Democratic beliefs and rhetoric and blue beliefs and rhetoric (communist, socialist, fascist, dictatorship of some sort). Well, if that's what blues want then the blues better start preparing themselves and preparing their followers for a war with THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA that will be fought within Blue America that will be fully supported by Red America.

That's rich!  We have a single party, the GOP, that has a horrible record for managing "democratic norms":

• They ran a 7-year investigation that wandered all over the place, then impeached a President for lying about having sex with an intern, yet they wail like babies about a 17-month investigation of the current President
  
• They had a President anointed by their conservative Supreme Court who actually lost an election, then got us involved in two wars that continue to this day
  
• And now, they are running interference for a President who may have conspired with Russia to capture the job he currently holds
  
• They also wail about the mistreatment of their SCOTUS appointments, though their chief complaints there center on Robert Bork, who triggered the Saturday Night Massacre under Nixon, and a few clearly incapable appointees.
  

For 30 years, the Dems have gotten far fewer appointments than they should have statistically.  The court has been solidly conservative since Nixon appointed four to the court … Nixon who was the only President to resign in shame.  Now, we have the spectacle of this bizarre President having appointed one to the court that was held for him by the GOP-dominated Senate, and is prepared to nominate another extreme RW judge -- both confirmed by simple majority.  But, according to you, it's the Democrats who are dictatorial.  Yeah, right!

[Bob Butler 54]

(09-21-2018, 07:11 AM)David Horn Wrote: Nixon who was the only President to resign in shame.

For the moment that is true... Not sure if you put the right qualifier on that. On the one hand, evidence is that Trump knows no shame. On the other hand, having to resign would label him as a loser.

We'll see.

It might make for good bookends for the unraveling.

[David Horn]

(09-21-2018, 07:48 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(09-21-2018, 07:11 AM)David Horn Wrote: Nixon who was the only President to resign in shame.

For the moment that is true...  Not sure if you put the right qualifier on that.  On the one hand, evidence is that Trump knows no shame.  On the other hand, having to resign would label him as a loser.

We'll see.

It might make for good bookends for the unraveling.

I don't see Trump leaving of his own accord.  Clinton proved that you can be impeached and survive -- even in the modern era.  Assume Trump thinks that applies to him as well.

[Classic-Xer]

(09-21-2018, 09:36 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(09-21-2018, 07:48 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(09-21-2018, 07:11 AM)David Horn Wrote: Nixon who was the only President to resign in shame.

For the moment that is true...  Not sure if you put the right qualifier on that.  On the one hand, evidence is that Trump knows no shame.  On the other hand, having to resign would label him as a loser.

We'll see.

It might make for good bookends for the unraveling.

I don't see Trump leaving of his own accord.  Clinton proved that you can be impeached and survive -- even in the modern era.  Assume Trump thinks that applies to him as well.

The other Clinton proved that as long as you have friendly people in the right places, you can clearly break the law and get away with it while you are running for President. What makes you think we should care about what Trump does? I mean, what makes you guys think calling you communists is worse than calling us racist. I have plenty of written evidence available at my finger tips to back it up. Right now, Trump has free reign like me or any other red. What blues often view as race related is actually class related, character related and education related. Here's the deal, whatever school didn't teach me, life and careers have taught me. So, keep this mind as we continue moving toward 4T.

[Classic-Xer]

(09-21-2018, 07:11 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(09-19-2018, 06:57 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: You're need to pack courts as means to bypass the democratic process says what about actual size of the blues so called majority. If you haven't figured this out, I've been able to differentiate and I have been differentiating between the traditional Democratic base voters and the blue/green voters who are using the Democratic party. My beef is not with and has never been with the traditional Democratic voters. The Republican beef is not with them either. The beef is with the leadership of the voters who identify with the color blue.

You see, the blue leadership doesn't seem to actually believe in democracy or the US Constitution. I dunno, what would you call a system of government that's basically ruled by a group of liberals, a panel of liberal judges who aren't elected officials who have been given the power to eliminate peoples rights with the stroke of a pen. I think every Democratic voter should be viewing and following our exchanges so they understand what's at stake for them if they allow this liberal/ blue trend and the liberal/ blue dominance to continue within the Democratic party. Bob seems to bounce back & forth between traditional Democratic beliefs and rhetoric and blue beliefs and rhetoric (communist, socialist, fascist, dictatorship of some sort). Well, if that's what blues want then the blues better start preparing themselves and preparing their followers for a war with THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA that will be fought within Blue America that will be fully supported by Red America.

That's rich!  We have a single party, the GOP, that has a horrible record for managing "democratic norms":

• They ran a 7-year investigation that wandered all over the place, then impeached a President for lying about having sex with an intern, yet they wail like babies about a 17-month investigation of the current President
  
• They had a President anointed by their conservative Supreme Court who actually lost an election, then got us involved in two wars that continue to this day
  
• And now, they are running interference for a President who may have conspired with Russia to capture the job he currently holds
  
• They also wail about the mistreatment of their SCOTUS appointments, though their chief complaints there center on Robert Bork, who triggered the Saturday Night Massacre under Nixon, and a few clearly incapable appointees.
  

For 30 years, the Dems have gotten far fewer appointments than they should have statistically.  The court has been solidly conservative since Nixon appointed four to the court … Nixon who was the only President to resign in shame.  Now, we have the spectacle of this bizarre President having appointed one to the court that was held for him by the GOP-dominated Senate, and is prepared to nominate another extreme RW judge -- both confirmed by simple majority.  But, according to you, it's the Democrats who are dictatorial.  Yeah, right!

He was impeached for lying under oath (which he did) and he was acquitted by the Senate as a means to prevent civil unrest. Had he been straight  up and honest like he should have been, he would have been fine and left office less tarnished. Nixon got caught for doing what LBJ did and got away with for several years before him. LBJ had little to no shame either. Who knows what else he could have accomplished had he demonstrated to the American people that he had the capabilities necessary to win a war like good old FDR. He didn't measure up to FDR in that department so he was done as President of the United States of America.

[pbrower2a]

(09-21-2018, 12:25 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(09-21-2018, 09:36 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(09-21-2018, 07:48 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(09-21-2018, 07:11 AM)David Horn Wrote: Nixon who was the only President to resign in shame.

For the moment that is true...  Not sure if you put the right qualifier on that.  On the one hand, evidence is that Trump knows no shame.  On the other hand, having to resign would label him as a loser.

We'll see.

It might make for good bookends for the unraveling.

I don't see Trump leaving of his own accord.  Clinton proved that you can be impeached and survive -- even in the modern era.  Assume Trump thinks that applies to him as well.

The other Clinton proved that as long as you have friendly people in the right places, you can clearly break the law and get away with it while you are running for President. What makes you think we should care about what Trump does? I mean, what makes you guys think calling you communists is worse than calling us racist. I have plenty of written evidence available at my finger tips to back it up. Right now, Trump has free reign like me or any other red. What blues often view as race related is actually class related, character related and education related. Here's the deal, whatever school didn't teach me, life and careers have taught me. So, keep this mind as we continue moving toward 4T.

Clinton was accused of fornication that he did, and not of outright rape. He wasn't walking into female changing rooms. He didn't brag about grabbing women by their crotches.

We on the Blue side are not Communists. Most of us recognize Communist rule for tyranny, repression, and a high body count, with Communist rule typically becoming reactionary due to an ideology that rejects real change.

Race and class are not intertwined as much as they used to be, as our system does a fine job of ensuring that supremely-talented black people get showcased for their legitimate achievements. It does badly at bringing people out of poverty, especially as inheritance becomes the predominant means of getting wealth from one set of people to another, and because bureaucratic institutions establish low, rigid ceilings for anyone not born to all the advantages of class privilege. People from among the poor might show some empathy for people in distress, which is inconsistent with an economic order that punishes poverty.

We now have a pay-to-play economic system. Everything has a high price, and all that really matter is that the economic elites get what they want. Therefore, making everything from health care to education fiendishly expensive (and the Trump design of privatization is to ensure that monopoly gougers get control of everything from schools to highways). Nothing matters to Trump and his ilk except that the Right People get whatever they want, and the rest of us suffer as much as is necessary to satisfy the unrestrained greed of such people.

[Classic-Xer]

(09-20-2018, 08:33 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(09-20-2018, 01:07 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: The blues may claim that a communist like system isn't what they want. However, a communist like system is what they need to control our freedoms. I've always said, your biggest issue is our freedoms.

Is that all you have?  A straw man?  Again, it is easy to tell a Democrat from a communist, or a Republican from a fascist.  For example, I am not a communist.  I view both the communists and the fascist as outgrowths of Agricultural Age authoritarian government, attempts to combine Industrial Age industry and technology with absolute power methods of ruling.  I believe there must be checks and balances on everything, including and especially offers from an elite class.

Are you stupid?  

Again, what freedoms are you claiming the blues are threatening?  The 'right' to offer slave wages?  The 'right' to be a  racist?  The 'right' to have the government enforce religious doctrines?  What amendments of the Bill of Rights have been threatened?

Straw man? It may have been easy to tell the difference between the Democrats and a communist at one time but it isn't as easy anymore. Look at you, you claim to be half Marxist yet you claim to be opposed to communism but seem to be open to a close relative called socialism. I have to admit its hard to figure out who is who because they're pretty similar in their beliefs and similar as far as the kind of government they represent and/or prefer. It seems, the communist and fascists prefer the method involving the use of force to eliminate existing governments and people in order take control over the nations wealth and the socialists prefer using an existing democratic process that's in place to accomplish the task instead. Sound about right?

As far as the freedoms the Democrats have taken away from me? The answer to your question is none. The Democrats aren't stupid enough to try it these days. Oh wait, the Democrat's did take away my right to have affordable health care like I had before Obamacare. But then again, I don't recognize that as being a right any way so I'll give them a pass on that one.

[Classic-Xer]

(09-21-2018, 01:36 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: Clinton was accused of fornication that he did, and not of outright rape. He wasn't walking into female changing rooms. He didn't brag about grabbing women by their crotches.

We on the Blue side are not Communists. Most of us recognize Communist rule for tyranny, repression, and a high body count, with Communist rule typically becoming reactionary due to an ideology that rejects real change.

Race and class are not intertwined as much as they used to be, as our system does a fine job of ensuring that supremely-talented black people get showcased for their legitimate achievements. It does badly at bringing people out of poverty, especially as inheritance becomes the predominant means of getting wealth from one set of people to another, and because bureaucratic institutions establish low, rigid ceilings for anyone not born to all the advantages of class privilege. People from among the poor might show some empathy for people in distress, which is inconsistent with an economic order that punishes poverty.

We now have a pay-to-play economic system. Everything has a high price, and all that really matter is that the economic elites get what they want. Therefore, making everything from health care to education fiendishly expensive (and the Trump design of privatization is to ensure that monopoly gougers get control of everything from schools to highways). Nothing matters to Trump and his ilk except that the Right People get whatever they want, and the rest of us suffer as much as is necessary to satisfy the unrestrained greed of such people.

Clinton wasn't being accused of rape. He was accused of committing perjury. You should get the facts straight. Your college degree and you ability to write at a college level doesn't give you the right to lie and say whatever you want with anything to back it up. As I've mentioned, I may not write very well but I can read very well and listen very well.

Do you have a clue about the cost of business? Do you have a clue about anything that relates to business? Here, I'll give you a clue about the cost of the refrigerant you might need to be added to an air conditioner some day. The price of a pound includes the cost of an expensive machine for reclaiming refrigerant and expansive tanks to store used refrigerant in that are required by federal law and additional schooling and fee's associated with  cards that are legally required and distributed by the EPA, expensive refrigerant gauges, expensive instruments, future disposal costs and the cost of the refrigerant itself which isn't cheap either.

If you are just starting out in business, you will need to spend about 3,000-4,000 just on refrigeration tools. As you said, if you want to play like us, you better be prepared to anti up/ drop some serious change/ part with thousands of dollars/ pay the initial entrance fee and you better be smart, better be tough, better be stubborn, better be willing to make sacrifices or you're not going to be in business in five years and you'll most likely be down thousands of dollars.

[Bob Butler 54]

(09-21-2018, 04:24 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Straw man? It may have been easy to tell the difference between the Democrats and a communist at one time but it isn't as easy anymore.

What do you see as changed?  I see China and to quite an extent Russia as two major places where the once communists still wield considerable power.  They use an autocratic government, rather than the Democrats preference for Enlightenment rights and democracy.  What has changed is allowing some former communists become something that looks a lot like capitalist elites.  What has not changed is the preference for using autocratic government.

Again, unless you are exceedingly stupid, it is easy to tell the difference.  So, yes, you are dependent on a straw man.

(09-21-2018, 04:24 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: Look at you, you claim to be half Marxist yet you claim to be opposed to communism but seem to be open to a close relative called socialism. I have to admit its hard to figure out who is who because they're pretty similar in their beliefs and similar as far as the kind of government they represent and/or prefer.

Again, socialism means many things to many people.  I prefer not to use the label as is means nothing these days.  Any government which helps the People could be called socialist.  The US Constitution listed "promote the general Welfare" as a base function in the preamble, so being a so called socialist is hardly un American.

Just a confused word these days.

(09-21-2018, 04:24 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: It seems, the communist and fascists prefer the method involving the use of force to eliminate existing governments and people in order take control over the nations wealth and the socialists prefer using an existing democratic process that's in place to accomplish the task instead. Sound about right?

No.  Helping the People is to me an admirable goal.  Increasing the power of government to increase ones own power is not.  Again, the word 'socialist' means different things to different people.  I prefer not to use the word.  It is you who are obsessed with it, as it helps with your straw man.  Or, are you familiar with the Equivocation fallacy?

(09-21-2018, 04:24 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: As far as the freedoms the Democrats have taken away from me? The answer to your question is none. The Democrats aren't stupid enough to try it these days. Oh wait, the Democrat's did take away my right to have affordable health care like I had before Obamacare. But then again, I don't recognize that as being a right any way so I'll give them a pass on that one.

Thought so.  Straw Man.  

Though health care is included in the UN Declaration of Human Rights.  The US signed, the Senate ratified, so in principle it is the law of the land.  I don't know that citizens are allowed to reject rights as individuals.

[Bob Butler 54]

(09-21-2018, 06:13 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: I may not write very well but I can read very well and listen very well.

{Choke.  Sputter.}

Well, no.  You are extremist, and you filter everything through your worldview.  This renders you as unable to listen and comprehend what is not consistent with your worldview.

In this, you are hardly alone here.

[Eric the Green]

(09-20-2018, 10:15 PM)Ragnarök_62 Wrote:

(09-20-2018, 06:44 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(09-20-2018, 04:37 PM)Ragnarök_62 Wrote:

(09-20-2018, 01:07 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(09-19-2018, 07:19 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: Blue is only a color on a network TV map on election day for any state that votes Democratic, whether those Democrats are your traditional ones or not. These days, judges are being appointed by Republicans who will take away our rights to vote, speak, demonstrate, strike, have a union, have a decent environment, have rights as consumers, have rights as workers, love whom we wish without restrictions.

Democrats (all blues) don't want communism or dictatorship, and they don't want rule by bosses. You on the red side want rule by bosses. 

When the blues finally take power again after 40 years of abject regression, we will put back the assault weapons ban and other reasonable gun controls. We will raise taxes on the wealthy. We will cut unnecessary spending, especially on war, but in all areas, and balance the budget. We will require energy and car companies and all industries to put out products that do not harm the environment and the climate we depend on. We will ensure net neutrality. We will protect and encourage unions and consumer rights. We will prevent the banking speculators from ruining our economy, and put financial criminals in jail. We will enforce and extend anti-trust laws and prevent big mergers not in the peoples' interest. We will stop unnecessary oil wars. We will protect women's rights and LBGTQ rights and make sure all qualified citizens can vote. We will restore real democracy from the moneyed interests and the gerrymanders. We will make sure police respect black lives, and correct abuses in the criminal justice system that put too many innocent people in prison. We will protect social security and ensure an adequate welfare system that protects us from capricious bosses that fire people for no reason. We will raise the minimum wage, restore overtime and shorter working hours, and make sure that all people benefit from the machines that do our work, not just the owners of the machines. We will make sure corporate boards have worker and community representatives with real power. We will pack and reform the courts if necessary to achieve these aims, because the courts do not represent and were not appointed by the majority of Americans, but by an outdated system of minority rule. We will create a fair trade world economy. We will make our country truly great, instead of the laughing stock of the world as it is now. If you reds want a war over all of that, then that's your choice. We will defeat you.

The blues have never really had power over anyone other than the poor who don't have the freedom to do anything but vote for a blue and hope for the best as far as getting something back in return for their voting effort like a higher minimum wage for the jobs that they tend to do for a living. A higher wage for a job that will most likely no longer exist after the law is passed. The blues are going have to figure out a way to do something about the freedom to say fuck that, I'm closing the doors and accepting the offer previously made by group of multi millionaires and getting out of this fucked up place. The blues may claim that a communist like system isn't what they want. However, a communist like system is what they need to control our freedoms. I've always said, your biggest issue is our freedoms.

Freedoms?  I want nothing to do with the freedom to be a wage slave for that fucking shithead Bezos.
https://www.salon.com/2014/03/16/amazons..._this_way/

His sweatshops are in dire need of molotov cocktails!  Just burn 'em down.

Well, that's your freedom as we say.

Would you like to work for Bezos or for that matter Walfart?  I also want the freedom to do weed. Is that OK with you? Sessions is such a square you know.

As for the subject matter of this thread, who can beat Trump.  To me Trump presents a mixed record.  I fully support him for bricking free trade with tariffs. He just needs to do that some more and slap some tariffs on electronic crap like Ishits. I also like his position on immigration. More immigrants = lower wages. Finally, I like it that he's bricking the "Liberal World Order." His positions on taxes, health care, and being in bed with fundies and Israel sucks though.

Democrats need to chuck SJW's and open borders.  They also need to stop with the Russia,Russia,Russia stuff. Israel and multinationals interfere in our elections far more than Russia. Democrats also need to sign up for single payer health care and higher taxes on fat cats. IOW, Bernie Sanders is the way to go.  Stupid Hillary cheated him out, so shame, shame on the DNC for doing shat crap.

Well, to the extent that you agree with Trump, to that degree you have a mixed record

Wages are too low, and that's not the kind of freedom we need; agreed. But more immigrants does not = lower wages, when it's the kind of immigration Trump is stopping, you understand. Poor Mexicans are not going to drive down wages in jobs that residents of the USA don't do anyway. Trump wants a "merit based" immigrant system, which means he wants the kind of high-skilled immigrants from India and Europe that took away your job. I know nuance may not be your thing, but when it comes to what's best for our country and our people, sometimes it is needed.

Be careful about agreeing with the Drump! Social justice is a good thing, and Obama made a great point in his Sept.7 speech. Democrats need to appeal to everybody, and ask for every vote, not just white working class voters who voted for Trump, and not just ethnic/gender/LGBTQ voters. "I don't buy that" he said. We can't dismiss what others have to say just because they have certain characteristics.

https://youtu.be/sHAkDTlv8fA?t=41m50s




Russia Russia Russia is a good thing too. I hope it works to discredit him and lose him votes in the midterms. That's about all it's likely to do. Trump is really screwing up the tariffs. I thought I might agree with him on that too, but he is just creating problems with his reckless approach, putting tariffs on by fiat on first world countries. I don't think his heavy-handed approach will work. He's supposed to be a deal-maker, but I don't see it happening.

Hillary didn't cheat, or do anything wrong. Regardless of that nonsense, Bernie Sanders may be the way to go, but can he beat the Drum(p)? I have my doubts. That's the question of this thread. His horoscope score as I read it is no longer better than Trump's, and the new moon before election favors the incumbent, but with caveats. So I think McAuliffe, Landrieu, or maybe Sherrod Brown are better choices. They have higher scores than the Drump. Sanders may well be nominated, if he's feeling up to running at 78-79 years old. I would not predict him to lose, but I could not predict him to win.

http://philosopherswheel.com/presidentialelections.html

[Classic-Xer]

(09-20-2018, 06:31 AM)pbrower2a Wrote:

(09-20-2018, 01:07 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(09-19-2018, 07:19 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: Blue is only a color on a network TV map on election day for any state that votes Democratic, whether those Democrats are your traditional ones or not. These days, judges are being appointed by Republicans who will take away our rights to vote, speak, demonstrate, strike, have a union, have a decent environment, have rights as consumers, have rights as workers, love whom we wish without restrictions.

Democrats (all blues) don't want communism or dictatorship, and they don't want rule by bosses. You on the red side want rule by bosses. 

When the blues finally take power again after 40 years of abject regression, we will put back the assault weapons ban and other reasonable gun controls. We will raise taxes on the wealthy. We will cut unnecessary spending, especially on war, but in all areas, and balance the budget. We will require energy and car companies and all industries to put out products that do not harm the environment and the climate we depend on. We will ensure net neutrality. We will protect and encourage unions and consumer rights. We will prevent the banking speculators from ruining our economy, and put financial criminals in jail. We will enforce and extend anti-trust laws and prevent big mergers not in the peoples' interest. We will stop unnecessary oil wars. We will protect women's rights and LBGTQ rights and make sure all qualified citizens can vote. We will restore real democracy from the moneyed interests and the gerrymanders. We will make sure police respect black lives, and correct abuses in the criminal justice system that put too many innocent people in prison. We will protect social security and ensure an adequate welfare system that protects us from capricious bosses that fire people for no reason. We will raise the minimum wage, restore overtime and shorter working hours, and make sure that all people benefit from the machines that do our work, not just the owners of the machines. We will make sure corporate boards have worker and community representatives with real power. We will pack and reform the courts if necessary to achieve these aims, because the courts do not represent and were not appointed by the majority of Americans, but by an outdated system of minority rule. We will create a fair trade world economy. We will make our country truly great, instead of the laughing stock of the world as it is now. If you reds want a war over all of that, then that's your choice. We will defeat you.

The blues have never really had power over anyone other than the poor who don't have the freedom to do anything but vote for a blue and hope for the best as far as getting something back in return for their voting effort like a higher minimum wage for the jobs that they tend to do for a living. A higher wage for a job that will most likely no longer exist after the law is passed. The blues are going have to figure out a way to do something about the freedom to say fuck that, I'm closing the doors and accepting the offer previously made by group of multi millionaires and getting out of this fucked up place. The blues may claim that a communist like system isn't what they want. However, a communist like system is what they need to control our freedoms. I've always said, your biggest issue is our freedoms.

Blues want to give the poor more human dignity through better education and higher wages. Of course many of the poor are disabled or are victims of abuse (as by spouses who got the best of the economic situation while divesting themselves of a victim).

Do poor people really want to be sweated, basically worked harder and longer for less so that the Master Class can make more, as in the time that Donald Trump thinks was far greater than what we now have? Self-interest is a legitimate concern for all in a democracy, and not only for economic elites.

The Right Libertarians that you seem to love fail to recognize that hunger, filth, exposure, exploitation, illness, and ignorance are not freedom. The technological wonders of our time are inconsistent with extreme poverty, let alone peonage.

The prerogative to exploit, humiliate, and subjugate those who endure disadvantages not of their choosing is freedom for an elite but tyranny to the rest. You have no problem with an economic order that has fear as its sole motivator. You fail to recognize the consequences of your core beliefs should they become the official agenda. Your ideology would create hordes of people with no stake in the system, the sorts who would think a Lenin, Mao, Tito, or Castro their wish-fulfillment when the opportunity arises in the chaos resulting from the pervasive failure of institutions in war or economic collapse.



Yeah, the good old days -- when it was great to be around as long as one didn't have to do real work. Except that in those days most people were farm, mine,  or factory laborers, and their lives were miserable.That is not my idea of American greatness.

Dude, most women are making more money than most men these days. The doors have been open to women workers for along time now. I'm not raising my daughter to be a housewife. If she chooses to be one, that's fine but she will have the skills and the mindset to be a career woman too.

Dude, I don't care if you're poor and vote for Democrats to give you more stuff to make living in poverty more comfortable for you and other poor people. Sounds shitty to me but I'm not someone like you. I think we've clearly established that there are major differences between the two of us. I think you know which system that I'll be choosing and you should know that I don't care about which one you choose for yourself.

[pbrower2a]

(09-21-2018, 08:03 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(09-20-2018, 06:31 AM)pbrower2a Wrote:

(09-20-2018, 01:07 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(09-19-2018, 07:19 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: Blue is only a color on a network TV map on election day for any state that votes Democratic, whether those Democrats are your traditional ones or not. These days, judges are being appointed by Republicans who will take away our rights to vote, speak, demonstrate, strike, have a union, have a decent environment, have rights as consumers, have rights as workers, love whom we wish without restrictions.

Democrats (all blues) don't want communism or dictatorship, and they don't want rule by bosses. You on the red side want rule by bosses. 

When the blues finally take power again after 40 years of abject regression, we will put back the assault weapons ban and other reasonable gun controls. We will raise taxes on the wealthy. We will cut unnecessary spending, especially on war, but in all areas, and balance the budget. We will require energy and car companies and all industries to put out products that do not harm the environment and the climate we depend on. We will ensure net neutrality. We will protect and encourage unions and consumer rights. We will prevent the banking speculators from ruining our economy, and put financial criminals in jail. We will enforce and extend anti-trust laws and prevent big mergers not in the peoples' interest. We will stop unnecessary oil wars. We will protect women's rights and LBGTQ rights and make sure all qualified citizens can vote. We will restore real democracy from the moneyed interests and the gerrymanders. We will make sure police respect black lives, and correct abuses in the criminal justice system that put too many innocent people in prison. We will protect social security and ensure an adequate welfare system that protects us from capricious bosses that fire people for no reason. We will raise the minimum wage, restore overtime and shorter working hours, and make sure that all people benefit from the machines that do our work, not just the owners of the machines. We will make sure corporate boards have worker and community representatives with real power. We will pack and reform the courts if necessary to achieve these aims, because the courts do not represent and were not appointed by the majority of Americans, but by an outdated system of minority rule. We will create a fair trade world economy. We will make our country truly great, instead of the laughing stock of the world as it is now. If you reds want a war over all of that, then that's your choice. We will defeat you.

The blues have never really had power over anyone other than the poor who don't have the freedom to do anything but vote for a blue and hope for the best as far as getting something back in return for their voting effort like a higher minimum wage for the jobs that they tend to do for a living. A higher wage for a job that will most likely no longer exist after the law is passed. The blues are going have to figure out a way to do something about the freedom to say fuck that, I'm closing the doors and accepting the offer previously made by group of multi millionaires and getting out of this fucked up place. The blues may claim that a communist like system isn't what they want. However, a communist like system is what they need to control our freedoms. I've always said, your biggest issue is our freedoms.

Blues want to give the poor more human dignity through better education and higher wages. Of course many of the poor are disabled or are victims of abuse (as by spouses who got the best of the economic situation while divesting themselves of a victim).

Do poor people really want to be sweated, basically worked harder and longer for less so that the Master Class can make more, as in the time that Donald Trump thinks was far greater than what we now have? Self-interest is a legitimate concern for all in a democracy, and not only for economic elites.

The Right Libertarians that you seem to love fail to recognize that hunger, filth, exposure, exploitation, illness, and ignorance are not freedom. The technological wonders of our time are inconsistent with extreme poverty, let alone peonage.

The prerogative to exploit, humiliate, and subjugate those who endure disadvantages not of their choosing is freedom for an elite but tyranny to the rest. You have no problem with an economic order that has fear as its sole motivator. You fail to recognize the consequences of your core beliefs should they become the official agenda. Your ideology would create hordes of people with no stake in the system, the sorts who would think a Lenin, Mao, Tito, or Castro their wish-fulfillment when the opportunity arises in the chaos resulting from the pervasive failure of institutions in war or economic collapse.



Yeah, the good old days -- when it was great to be around as long as one didn't have to do real work. Except that in those days most people were farm, mine,  or factory laborers, and their lives were miserable.That is not my idea of American greatness.

Dude, most women are making more money than most men these days. The doors have been open to women workers for along time now. I'm not raising my daughter to be a housewife. If she chooses to be one, that's fine but she will have the skills and the mindset to be a career woman too.

Men used to be essential to the economy for supplying brute force. Machines have been taking over work that depends heavily on brute force. Success at work requiring brain power or adept handling of human relations has nothing to do with gender.

In most species, males are more aggressive, a consequence of testosterone. I saw that difference between male and female dogs of the same breed -- the cocker spaniel. The male was far more aggressive than the female even after spaying and neutering.  Yes, they are both dogs, animals of great power, strength, and agility. They were equal in those for their size.

In a world of finely-tuned devices that can kill if mishandled, whether automobiles or nuclear weapons, aggressive behavior can be quite unwelcome. OK -- it is simply out of style to raise girls to be housewives.

Quote:Dude, I don't care if you're poor and vote for Democrats to give you more stuff to make living in poverty more comfortable for you and other poor people. Sounds shitty to me but I'm not someone like you. I think we've clearly established that there are major differences between the two of us. I think you know which system that I'll be choosing and you should know that I don't care about which one you choose for yourself.

I'm finally getting some necessary help through Obamacare -- some physical therapy for a bad back. Such will allow me to do a wider variety of jobs. It is already changing my mental state for the better, as chronic pain leads to depression. It is also improving my sleep pattern. I may be off disability soon.

I had back pain so intense that it mimicked a coronary. I got the coronary treatment, and it wasn't something I want to repeat. But the system is delighted to get me into physical therapy to give me a back that, I hope, will never put me in the emergency room for a suspected heart attack.

[Eric the Green]

Glad to hear you are feeling better, p. brower.

Women are doing better in school than men nowadays, but they still don't get equal pay for equal work, and they still have glass ceilings to break through. There's one at the top that could have been broken through in 2016, and should have been, but instead we got a bull in a china shop who breaks lots of glass and accomplishes nothing for the people who voted for him.

[Classic-Xer]

(09-21-2018, 06:32 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(09-21-2018, 06:13 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: I may not write very well but I can read very well and listen very well.

{Choke.  Sputter.}

Well, no.  You are extremist, and you filter everything through your worldview.  This renders you as unable to listen and comprehend what is not consistent with your worldview.

In this, you are hardly alone here.

What's my worldview? I assume that you know what it is or at least think you do. So, lay it out for me to see and read and determine whether its accurate or not. I know you tend to bounce around quite a bit with your use of worldview. The way one sees the world and knows it,  is a pretty good filter for one to use and others to go by don't you think. I've used the word heaven to describe your worldview. According to my worldview, we do not live in heaven and therefore your worldview does not apply to the world that we live in and doesn't belong in real life discussions. Now, I'm not rejecting heaven, I'm simply stating the reality that we ain't even close to being there yet and there isn't an amount of money that can be raised and spent to get us there tomorrow. So, you might as well give up the dream and hope Jesus is kind enough to let you in when your time comes.

[Bob Butler 54]

(09-22-2018, 12:28 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: What's my worldview? I assume that you know what it is or at least think you do. So, lay it out for me to see and read and determine whether its accurate or not. I know you tend to bounce around quite a bit with your use of worldview. The way one sees the world and knows it,  is a pretty good filter for one to use and others to go by don't you think. I've used the word heaven to describe your worldview. According to my worldview, we do not live in heaven and therefore your worldview does not apply to the world that we live in and doesn't belong in real life discussions. Now, I'm not rejecting heaven, I'm simply stating the reality that we ain't even close to being there yet and there isn't an amount of money that can be raised and spent to get us there tomorrow. So, you might as well give up the dream and hope Jesus is kind enough to let you in when your time comes.

Hmm. Good question.

I think you are reddish. You described in the past the Trump Base as simplistic, thus It seems improper to call you red, but much of the time, for most issues, I expect you to lean heavily red.

You cannot seem to see the difference between Democrats and communists. In my view, that is easy, is basic. Agricultural Age autocratic cultures are set on one pattern, while Industrial Age Enlightenment democracies are set in another. I see the S&H crises and cycles as showing how cultures evolve. In each crisis we might implement rights, reject kings, reject slavery, reject fascism, etc… The process is incremental. I see there being different threads involving different civilizations. The Anglo-Americans are different from the French, are different from China, are different from the Middle East. Each civilization finds its own way to move from the autocratic to a democracy. It is an ugly, tedious process involving multiple wars, centuries and crises. In some ways you seem capable of seeing it, but it sure is not the same way I do if you can’t tell an autocracy from a democracy.

In Christian tradition, heaven is perfect. I don’t think in terms of perfection, but in terms of erasing flaws. They may be big flaws: kings, slavery, capitalist elites, not taking care of the Earth, etc…. That makes the progress real, the effort as perpetual, incremental.

As usual, the conservatives and you are trying to stop progress. There is usually an elite class which uses some method to maintain a too strong division of wealth in their favor. There is often an opposing elite class, who make their profits off a newer technology, who feel a need to have their political clout match the new wealth. Thus, they step on the old elite class hard. Among other things, the new elite class promises the People more rights, equality, democracy, etc…. Kind of them. Not. Yet the People remember the promises, and the new stuff becomes real.

Through most of the turnings, it is possible to halt progress. The advantage in different ways goes to those who want to hold still. Eventually the changes in technology and environment keep building and explode. Those are the days of change. Generally the change is much more profound than anticipated.

As a reddish person, I do not anticipate you as able to perceive the need for change. Long ago, some conservatives believed kings were selected by God and wielded His authority. Long ago, some thought all civilization was built on the cornerstone of slavery, that slavery was the natural order. It is really easy to see that by the new values, the old conservatives were immoral, flawed. It is harder to see that, yourself demonstrating it, when the shifting values are todays. It seems OK to destroy the Earth. It seems fine to care more about People with your skin pigmentation, and reject the notion of all men being created equal. Continuing the way things have always been done seems the correct way of doing things to many conservatives, and that is a disease I see you as sharing.

I guess that is the most important thing. I expect you to be blind, to not see what it is not convenient for you to see, to let your greed overcome your vision.

[David Horn]

(09-21-2018, 12:25 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(09-21-2018, 09:36 AM)David Horn Wrote: I don't see Trump leaving of his own accord.  Clinton proved that you can be impeached and survive -- even in the modern era.  Assume Trump thinks that applies to him as well.

The other Clinton proved that as long as you have friendly people in the right places, you can clearly break the law and get away with it while you are running for President. What makes you think we should care about what Trump does? I mean, what makes you guys think calling you communists is worse than calling us racist. I have plenty of written evidence available at my finger tips to back it up. Right now, Trump has free reign like me or any other red. What blues often view as race related is actually class related, character related and education related. Here's the deal, whatever school didn't teach me, life and careers have taught me. So, keep this mind as we continue moving toward 4T.

Clinton had the common sense to know where the edges were.  I'm not sure Trump even knows the edges exist.  The only thing that will stop Trump is an anti-GOP backlash that threatens sitting members of the Senate.  If that happens, Trump is toast … and as hard as he's pushing it, it may happen.  

Trump threatened to release classified material without review -- specifically because it was a threat to him.  He backed-off.  I wonder why!

[David Horn]

(09-21-2018, 12:58 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(09-21-2018, 07:11 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(09-19-2018, 06:57 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: You see, the blue leadership doesn't seem to actually believe in democracy or the US Constitution. I dunno, what would you call a system of government that's basically ruled by a group of liberals, a panel of liberal judges who aren't elected officials who have been given the power to eliminate peoples rights with the stroke of a pen. I think every Democratic voter should be viewing and following our exchanges so they understand what's at stake for them if they allow this liberal/ blue trend and the liberal/ blue dominance to continue within the Democratic party...

That's rich!  We have a single party, the GOP, that has a horrible record for managing "democratic norms":

• They ran a 7-year investigation that wandered all over the place, then impeached a President for lying about having sex with an intern, yet they wail like babies about a 17-month investigation of the current President
  
• They had a President anointed by their conservative Supreme Court who actually lost an election, then got us involved in two wars that continue to this day
  
• And now, they are running interference for a President who may have conspired with Russia to capture the job he currently holds
  
• They also wail about the mistreatment of their SCOTUS appointments, though their chief complaints there center on Robert Bork, who triggered the Saturday Night Massacre under Nixon, and a few clearly incapable appointees.
  

For 30 years, the Dems have gotten far fewer appointments than they should have statistically.  The court has been solidly conservative since Nixon appointed four to the court … Nixon who was the only President to resign in shame.  Now, we have the spectacle of this bizarre President having appointed one to the court that was held for him by the GOP-dominated Senate, and is prepared to nominate another extreme RW judge -- both confirmed by simple majority.  But, according to you, it's the Democrats who are dictatorial.  Yeah, right!

He was impeached for lying under oath (which he did) and he was acquitted by the Senate as a means to prevent civil unrest. Had he been straight  up and honest like he should have been, he would have been fine and left office less tarnished. Nixon got caught for doing what LBJ did and got away with for several years before him. LBJ had little to no shame either. Who knows what else he could have accomplished had he demonstrated to the American people that he had the capabilities necessary to win a war like good old FDR. He didn't measure up to FDR in that department so he was done as President of the United States of America.

First, Nixon was never impeached.  Instead, a contingent of senior GOP Senators paid him a visit, explained how likely a conviction was (almost certain) and he resigned.  LBJ played Texas politics, I'll grant you that, but I don't remember any case where he obstructed justice.  FDR also played hardball, in the middle of two existential crises.  Trump is just playing for personal profit and aggrandizement.  I hope you can see the difference here.  I certainly can.

[pbrower2a]

(09-22-2018, 12:28 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(09-21-2018, 06:32 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(09-21-2018, 06:13 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: I may not write very well but I can read very well and listen very well.

{Choke.  Sputter.}

Well, no.  You are extremist, and you filter everything through your worldview.  This renders you as unable to listen and comprehend what is not consistent with your worldview.

In this, you are hardly alone here.

What's my worldview? I assume that you know what it is or at least think you do. So, lay it out for me to see and read and determine whether its accurate or not. I know you tend to bounce around quite a bit with your use of worldview. The way one sees the world and knows it,  is a pretty good filter for one to use and others to go by don't you think. I've used the word heaven to describe your worldview. According to my worldview, we do not live in heaven and therefore your worldview does not apply to the world that we live in and doesn't belong in real life discussions. Now, I'm not rejecting heaven, I'm simply stating the reality that we ain't even close to being there yet and there isn't an amount of money that can be raised and spent to get us there tomorrow. So, you might as well give up the dream and hope Jesus is kind enough to let you in when your time comes.

I'm not Bob Butler.

I am more rigid in my view.

I see this world as terribly flawed, better when good people are in charge and worse when bad people are in charge. I see power, rank, authority, and wealth as tools that one can use for good or evil, evil mostly being their use to humiliate, exploit, and repress people. If one uses them well one gets good result. If one uses them badly one gets catastrophic results, usually first against innocent people and then against the guiltiest people -- those who actually wield the power, rank, authority, and wealth who have used those for selfish, cruel, exploitative, and destructive purposes. Incompetence and malice often have much the same effect.

Many of us live in nasty places -- places with harsh climates (mine has the fire-and-ice Dfa grouping with winter blizzards and sapping heat and humidity in the summer), no scenery, little to do aside from visiting family, and an aristocratic economy. The cost of living is low because few people would ever choose to live here; they simply get stuck. They think that they will get out when the going is good, but they somehow miss the chance.

The world in which I live is best described as a purgatory -- definitely not Heaven as it is joyless unless one owns the assets, but not Hell in the sense that a concentration camp is. If there is a God, then Man obviously falls short; as some social orders have shown, Man is far more adept at creating Hell than at creating Heaven. If we encounters Heaven, as Joni Mitchell puts it, we "pave paradise -- put up a parking lot".

I've seen enough varying descriptions of Heaven and explanations on who gets there and who doesn't.  Hell is more colorful in its descriptions, typically describing excesses of one's own world. Extreme heat seems to describe what people in hot desert locations like the Arabian Peninsula and most of North Africa. For people in cold places, it is even more brutally cold. If I were to describe Hell based on Iowa, I would have meteorological chaos that alternates between heat waves and blizzards, with severe storms (tornadoes included) ushering the swift transition of one to the other. Slave on a plantation? Inmate of a Konzentratisonlager or gulag? Galley slave? I think we get the idea. I have been in situations in which I thoroughly hated life, but I have always known that things can get worse. Hell has no obvious escape. Who wants to go where the Nazis and Stalinists are?

I have seen  tantalizing examples of Paradise. Climate? Try San Diego, where moderate temperatures prevail all year. Scenery? San Francisco. Things to do? At least Chicago, probably New York City. I have seen some great art and heard some splendid music. I have tasted excellent wine and beer. Maybe Heaven is sort of a fusion of a dude ranch and a Chautauqua. It is wonderful in part because the souls are of good people.

I fault Christianity for offering cheap grace -- that if one believes fervently enough at the end one gets full exculpation for even the worst abominations, but if one has the wrong faith, one ends up in Hell. So if one was an administrator in a Nazi concentration camp and smoothly channeled innocent people from a cattle car to a gas chamber and their bodies to a crematorium but found Jesus at the last moment of life (as an executioner wrapped a rope around one's neck) one goes to some paradise -- but innocent people who rejected Jesus because accepting Jesus as Son of God is inconsistent with Jewish teaching, one goes to Hell.

I better like the idea that goodness as a person puts one in Heaven. A few flaws? You wiggle out. Thoroughly rotten? For the rest of the shades, it's out of sight and out of mind. Destruction or damnation? Being devoured forever by Blondi for testing a cyanide pellet on him is as bad as anything I can imagine. 



Get it?

[Classic-Xer]

(09-22-2018, 09:02 AM)David Horn Wrote:

(09-21-2018, 12:25 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(09-21-2018, 09:36 AM)David Horn Wrote: I don't see Trump leaving of his own accord.  Clinton proved that you can be impeached and survive -- even in the modern era.  Assume Trump thinks that applies to him as well.

The other Clinton proved that as long as you have friendly people in the right places, you can clearly break the law and get away with it while you are running for President. What makes you think we should care about what Trump does? I mean, what makes you guys think calling you communists is worse than calling us racist. I have plenty of written evidence available at my finger tips to back it up. Right now, Trump has free reign like me or any other red. What blues often view as race related is actually class related, character related and education related. Here's the deal, whatever school didn't teach me, life and careers have taught me. So, keep this mind as we continue moving toward 4T.

Clinton had the common sense to know where the edges were.  I'm not sure Trump even knows the edges exist.  The only thing that will stop Trump is an anti-GOP backlash that threatens sitting members of the Senate.  If that happens, Trump is toast … and as hard as he's pushing it, it may happen.  

Trump threatened to release classified material without review -- specifically because it was a threat to him.  He backed-off.  I wonder why!

Are you aware of the classified materials (the classified materials you may have been talking about) that Trump has recently released. You may not have if you are one of those people who only get their information from blue news channels, blue newspapers and blue radio channels. You may not be aware of the other investigation/ probe into a major plot involving several high ranking officials associated with the DOJ, FBI and the DNC. You should be watching FOX news, you should be listening to conservative radio channel and should be reading conservative newspapers right now too. You see if what they are saying is true, the Democratic party as you know now may end up being shredded and everything that I have eluded to and pointing out and stressing for years could end being viewed as true..

Now, who do you think the Democrats are going to be afterwards? Any guess's, any idea's, any clues? You should have some because you've been battling with one and loosing battles with one for years. How many Democrats/Republicans would support me if I were to switch or join with the Democrats? It wouldn't be very hard considering I'm associated with them now and have been associated with them for years. Bob views me as an extremist red. Bob is wrong about the color. Who does a purple represent? What does a purple represent? How much government money is being used to influence? How much government money is being used the wrong way? How much government money is being channeled to blue interest groups how seek to undermine and destroy the United States? Blues better gulp because America's entire social arsenal is waiting to be unleashed and the blues have no chance of stopping it once its unleashed. What I see and what Eric sees are very similar. He's using the stars. I'm using my intuition and common sense and knowledge of the world that we live in. Eric is viewing what the stars are telling him through a blue lens with a blue filter. I'm viewing it with through American eyes, an American's standpoint and an American's point of view.