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Trump Trainwreck - Ongoing diary of betrayal and evil
#81
(11-23-2016, 06:11 PM)Ragnarök_62 Wrote: You're kidding right?  Just look at this   house price.

I didn't specifically say they might move to MY city! There's plenty of other cities in America.

Quote:
Quote:That's what happens in most poor countries when crops fail, landowners get greedy or poverty gets worse. In fact, I'm amazed that rural voters are still so numerous that they can swing an election.

I think folks would be better off doing the exact opposite. The best idea is to sell a house in bubbleland and go to nice cheap Oklahoma and retire on the house price differential. Cool

The problem being that the peoples' mindset out there in rural red America (present cyber-company excepted) is anathema to most people in bubbleland. So, we're stuck here.

It might work economically, for someone who can bring his/her California nest egg with them and don't have to depend on the red state economy. But, economics isn't everything, though "pecuniary" Rags might be tempted to think so. For my money, it's worth it to live in a blue state. And there are bargains here if you can find them, and we do have a government that's willing to help out in various ways.
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive;
Eric M
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#82
(11-23-2016, 08:24 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: I figure that the Trump Administration, both Houses of Congress, and most state legislatures will do everything possible to make liberalism permanently  irrelevant to American politics. Such opens America to extremism, both of the extreme Left and Right.

Both parties, after winning any sort of majority, no matter how thin and tenuous, have interpreted it as a mandate, have tried to push their culture on the other half of the country.  Health care!  Transgender bathrooms!  Gay weddings!  Pushing a mandate when one doesn't really have one is a good way of losing power.  Thus, through the duration of the unravelling neither party has been able to truly push their values in a sustained way.  There is the partisan notion that one's own values are correct, the other guy's wrong, that the other culture must be entirely defeated and suppressed.  Attempting to do this results in political backlash.  The wannabe suppressor becomes the suppressed.

Perhaps forcing one's values on other people isn't always a great and wonderful idea?

At the moment the pendulum is swinging red.  Not so long ago the progressives were talking about demographics, that the blue leaning segments of the population are growing, the red shrinking, so progressive victory was inevitable.  I see values and cultures as incredibly stubborn.  Is it possible that trying to move either immovable object might not be the wisest of moves?  

I think the talk of the country falling apart is premature.  Trump talked an extreme red game through the campaign.  The harder he pushes that agenda in office, the greater the backlash I'd expect.  Thing is, he is shifting blue rather quickly, backing off many of the ideas that won him the angry red votes.  I don't think he is shifting far enough to avoid a backlash, and I don't know if the angry red voters will feel as betrayed by Trump as they felt about the establishment Republicans he defeated.  We'll have to see.  

My magic eight ball keeps coming up 'Answer hazy, try again later.'
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#83
(11-23-2016, 06:12 PM)X_4AD_84 Wrote:
(11-23-2016, 04:53 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: We were talking on the thread about those people in the rural areas, about why they stay put in these depressed areas. As Trump's policies condemn them to even more poverty, they may be forced to move to the cities. That's what happens in most poor countries when crops fail, landowners get greedy or poverty gets worse. In fact, I'm amazed that rural voters are still so numerous that they can swing an election.

But if they move to the cities, there's a chance a few of them become less provincial in their thinking, less wedded to the self-reliance meme, and more aware of the benefits of government services and regulations. It used to be one of the demographic trends in America and worldwide, that people moved to the cities, and cities expanded. Could this trend start back up again, and add to the demographic trend of increasing diversity-- likely to still be a factor given that hispanics don't soon forget insults and attacks on them?

Well, at this point I'm grasping for any kind of hope Smile

Lower cost of living.

Especially if someone doesn't have the skills and experience to work in tech / finance / media / etc. If a person has a McJob, where would they rather be? Paying out the nose at the coasts or living a bit better inland?

BTW - many of the people I went to high school with have left the Bay Area. We are not talking people who grew up in the East Bay or far North Bay here. These are people who grew up "upper middle class" on The Peninsula, although the ones who moved away mostly did not go into tech. That appears to be one of the key decision points. Another one is, even if in tech or other high paid career, people who want to recreate what they experienced growing up during the 70s need to move someplace like Placer County or out of state in order to afford the equivalent now. A number of the ones who've not moved away are either unmarried or if married, are child free. Once one does not have to worry about raising a family, options open up regarding where to live.

Bingo! Here in the Fargo area you can buy a nice house for what would only get you a shoe box in the Bay Area.

In rural areas you can be working class and still afford a decent house, my mom's home was $40,000 (in 1994 dollars).
#MakeTheDemocratsGreatAgain
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#84
(11-24-2016, 06:27 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:
(11-23-2016, 08:24 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: I figure that the Trump Administration, both Houses of Congress, and most state legislatures will do everything possible to make liberalism permanently  irrelevant to American politics. Such opens America to extremism, both of the extreme Left and Right.

Both parties, after winning any sort of majority, no matter how thin and tenuous, have interpreted it as a mandate, have tried to push their culture on the other half of the country.  Health care!  Transgender bathrooms!  Gay weddings!  Pushing a mandate when one doesn't really have one is a good way of losing power.  Thus, through the duration of the unravelling neither party has been able to truly push their values in a sustained way.  There is the partisan notion that one's own values are correct, the other guy's wrong, that the other culture must be entirely defeated and suppressed.  Attempting to do this results in political backlash.  The wannabe suppressor becomes the suppressed.

Perhaps forcing one's values on other people isn't always a great and wonderful idea?

It's sort of natural, I think, for the blue side to want progress and real freedom and opportunity. We can't help it if too many people can't see it and resist it and want to go backwards towards the tyranny of the past. We still need to push, for everyone's benefit.

Quote:At the moment the pendulum is swinging red.  Not so long ago the progressives were talking about demographics, that the blue leaning segments of the population are growing, the red shrinking, so progressive victory was inevitable.  I see values and cultures as incredibly stubborn.  Is it possible that trying to move either immovable object might not be the wisest of moves?  

Wise or not, in regard to the likelihood of success, it still must be done. Yes, reactionaries are stubborn, especially in conservative, heavily-religious countries like the United States, Saudi Arabia, etc. But we push for progress, or we fall behind. Whether the regressives like it or not, we will keep pushing. It's human nature to do that; to keep pushing up into life, in spite of the forces of death. And evolution continues.

Quote:I think the talk of the country falling apart is premature.  Trump talked an extreme red game through the campaign.  The harder he pushes that agenda in office, the greater the backlash I'd expect.  Thing is, he is shifting blue rather quickly, backing off many of the ideas that won him the angry red votes.  I don't think he is shifting far enough to avoid a backlash, and I don't know if the angry red voters will feel as betrayed by Trump as they felt about the establishment Republicans he defeated.  We'll have to see.  

My magic eight ball keeps coming up 'Answer hazy, try again later.'

The talk always comes before the reality. These are the times in history when such talk is going to happen, and grow. Exactly how it shakes down, I have given my estimate. Even with the Republican winning this year, I had already laid out a scenario. I was by no means entirely sure that the Democrats would win this year, although I predicted it. I thought Hillary would win, and I also knew Trump could win, but it was too horrific a prospect for me ever to forecast. But, here we are. Like I said, Trump shifts his way of talking all the time, even in mid-sentence. But his appointments so far are horrific, and they keep coming up snake eyes, every day so far. Not a one has been to any degree acceptable, except to regressives.
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive;
Eric M
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#85
Of course, I also embrace a somewhat-different view about values and evolution, which I have referred you to before Bob, and it's a bit more tolerant than a strictly-progressive view, although you have given me no indication that you have read about it here:
http://philosopherswheel.com/planetarydynamics.html

But it's a very interesting and applicable view to what's going on and the discussion of stubbornly-held valus, and there are links to other authors there too who might not have my more-symbolic take on it. It's called spiral dynamics and integral philosophy, and suggests that although values succeed each other dynamically through progress, each new values meme both transcends and includes the previous ones. So, the question is how can we battle the previous values meme, and yet respect it and honor its place within an integrated whole? I'm not sure how that works, except as you say to at least respect the value of previous values memes (called vmemes for short in spiral dynamics).

The Green meme of all-one-people on one-green-planet is the top of the scale, and sometimes includes also what I inserted called the Lemon-colored meme (socialist). But beyond and above the Green meme are the integral memes (labelled Yellow and Turquoise) in which all the memes up and down the scale are seen as parts of a dynamic whole, each in its place in a "nested hierarchy."

Stretching below the Green (and Lemon) memes of course are the Orange Meme (competition/capitalist industry), the Brown Meme which I have inserted (secular or royal state), the Blue Meme (moral authority), the Red Meme (male war gods and emperors), the Pink Meme which I have inserted (agricultural, feminine fruitfulness), the Purple Meme (tribal and magical thinking) and the Beige Meme (instinctive).
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive;
Eric M
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#86
(11-24-2016, 05:50 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: It's sort of natural, I think, for the blue side to want progress and real freedom and opportunity. We can't help it if too many people can't see it and resist it and want to go backwards towards the tyranny of the past. We still need to push, for everyone's benefit...

Wise or not, in regard to the likelihood of success, it still must be done. Yes, reactionaries are stubborn, especially in conservative, heavily-religious countries like the United States, Saudi Arabia, etc. But we push for progress, or we fall behind. Whether the regressives like it or not, we will keep pushing. It's human nature to do that; to keep pushing up into life, in spite of the forces of death. And evolution continues.

In past American crises, the problems have been clear and drastic.  The need for transformation is in your face obvious.  The progressive can and do solve the problem by submarining the conservatives, just brute for taking over and doing it, with muzzle loading firearms settling two of the larger arguments.  Your attitude suggests a repeat of that pattern.  If I thought you could get a clear majority, a president and a filibuster proof congress, I'd be with you.  The clean way to resolve a 4T is with a solid consensus that certain problems are intolerable.  The progressives will take over, send the Royal Loyalists to Canada and free the slaves.

That requires a critical mass of votes.  The critical mass of votes requires an intolerable problem and consensus on how to solve it.  The pattern we have seen in this endless unravelling with no regeneracy in sight suggests that we might not get the sort of successful culture transforming crisis that S&H predicted.

It might yet happen.  I'd like to at least consider and talk about whether it can happen, whether we should try to make it happen.  We've seen enough dystopian variations of crisis proposed by various folk both red and blue, with the country splitting and rural / urban conflict.  We've seen both red and blue claims that their values will ultimately clearly win at the ballot box.  My magic 8 ball is hazy.  I guess you must do what your values say you have to do, but I don't know if it is possible and wise.

Mind you, I generally favor blue values.  A nice clean traditional progressive transformation of the county that resolves a good number of problems would be a nice thing from my perspective.  I'd just like people to consider if going for it is entirely prudent.  Do we have to force red states onto Obamacare?  Do we have to have transgender bathrooms in red states?  Do we have to force bakers to sell wedding cakes with two tiny wax brides on top?  Do we have to force police departments to improve training so that fewer minorities are shot without real cause?

Well, yes, some fights should be fought.  It is also possible to push unnecessary fights and rile up the opposition for no good reason.
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#87
(11-24-2016, 05:18 AM)Eric the Green Wrote:
Quote:I didn't specifically say they might move to MY city! There's plenty of other cities in America.

But, but San Jose is just so famous. Big Grin





This song came out when I was 6.  It's just one of those songs that gets stuck in my head. Cool

Quote:
Quote:That's what happens in most poor countries when crops fail, landowners get greedy or poverty gets worse. In fact, I'm amazed that rural voters are still so numerous that they can swing an election.

Quote:The problem being that the peoples' mindset out there in rural red America (present cyber-company excepted) is anathema to most people in bubbleland. So, we're stuck here.

Eric, Eric, I already picked a nice house (IMHO) and showed it to XY_4AD.  Just look at this gem! It has everything I like. A nice low,low price and no lawn. Just think of the CO2 emissions that sort of yard saves.  And the mindless effort of messing with that nasty 1950's relic, a lawn. It's in ocean blue California even. I'd add a little greenery though. I think some prickly pear cactus and if y'all can legalize peyote, I can plant that. XY_4AD, hmmm. mentioned Placer county. Let's see what the ol'e interwebs comes up with there.

Here's something.

Quote:It might work economically, for someone who can bring his/her California nest egg with them and don't have to depend on the red state economy. But, economics isn't everything, though "pecuniary" Rags might be tempted to think so. For my money, it's worth it to live in a blue state. And there are bargains here if you can find them, and we do have a government that's willing to help out in various ways.

You are correct. There are bargains to be had in California of all places. The best part of said bargains is that they're located in areas not affected by suburban sprawl and the ensuing traffic headaches like I endured in Houston. I'm guessing I can indulge in a pecuniary pass time in Placer county. I can go out and pan for gold. Placer county is named after placer gold deposits.
---Value Added Cool
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#88
In case you thought that the President-Elect could do little harm with education, then think again. How about appointing someone who thinks that working-class kids would do just as well by being shoved into the underpaid workforce?


Quote:A think tank funded by Donald Trump’s Secretary of Education pick recently advocated for putting kids back in the workforce.

The Acton Institute, a conservative nonprofit that is said to have received thousands of dollars in donations from Betsy DeVos and her family, posted an essay to its blog this month that called child labor “a gift our kids can handle.”

“Let us not just teach our children to play hard and study well, shuffling them through a long line of hobbies and electives and educational activities,” said the post’s author, Joseph Sunde. “A long day’s work and a load of sweat have plenty to teach as well.”

Child labor isn’t universally forbidden in the U.S.― actors and newspaper deliverers are two exceptions― but it is tightly regulated.

DeVos was a member of Acton’s Board of Directors for 10 years and while it’s unclear how much influence she currently has on the organization, its homepage now prominently features a message congratulating DeVos on her nomination.

The essay raises serious questions about the woman who would potentially be in charge of U.S. public schools. Education advocates have already expressed concern about DeVos’ history of supporting school voucher programs.

“In nominating DeVos, Trump makes it loud and clear that his education policy will focus on privatizing, defunding and destroying public education in America,” American Federation of Teachers president Randi Weingarten said.

“She has lobbied for failed schemes, like vouchers — which take away funding and local control from our public schools — to fund private schools at taxpayers’ expense,” the National Education Association said. “These schemes do nothing to help our most-vulnerable students while they ignore or exacerbate glaring opportunity gaps. She has consistently pushed a corporate agenda to privatize, de-professionalize and impose cookie-cutter solutions to public education.”

Trump’s team did not immediately return a request for comment.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/bets...af95edf12e
My comment:

 I am well satisfied that being overworked and underpaid  in tasks of sheer drudgery as a child does little to prepare a child for anything other than being overworked and underpaid in tasks of sheer drudgery. The most effective teaching that I have ever known has elements of play.

Maybe we are finding out the hard way what "MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN" means -- going back about 120 years, when working-class kids were spared the irrelevancy of schooling so that they could work to replace their parents worn out by age 35 in 70-hour workweeks of back-breaking toil.

Does anyone want to turn the calendar back 120 years or so? Sure, times were wonderful for the economic elites of the time.... but except for revolutions and wars that topple elites and the harsh justice against recently-overthrown elites held culpable for everything that went wrong, aren't most times great for elites? The middle class? If one was lucky enough to be in it, real estate was cheap and spacious. But there was no plethora of white-collar jobs that make possible the urban sprawl of giant blocks of tiny condominiums, strip malls, ten-lane expressways inadequate for the traffic upon them.  The least problematic aspect of a return to the past would be the disappearance of the technologies of entertainment. Television numbs us, the popular music of our time isn't an improvement from the ragtime of Scott Joplin's time, and the correspondence that people used to send was far wittier and more thoughtful than the instantaneous communications on the telephone. But return to the social norms of the Gilded Age? That is the ugly capitalism of Marxist stereotypes, the sort of order that a decent person would seek to reform, if not overthrow.

  
Here's a reminder of how and things would be if Donald Trump and his political figures got their way, except that he would not cast off modern technology.

The Good Old Days -- They Were Terrible

[Image: 795898.jpg]
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated Communist  but instead the people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists -- Hannah Arendt.


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#89
What a horrific pick as "Education Secretary." More like education demolisher. She is well-known too as an advocate of "school choice." Besides the facts that show vouchers don't work, they take away public support for public schools, so that they further decline and this increasingly reserves education for the white and wealthy. But, that's "making America great again."

Trump wants to abolish the Department of Education, and this means states will have to pick up more of the tab too. That will suit the politicians in the flyover country well, so the red state governments can keep their schools unfunded and their citizens ignorant, and thus they will continue to vote for them.
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive;
Eric M
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#90
We Americans are in for a very hard lesson in civics for the next four years.
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated Communist  but instead the people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists -- Hannah Arendt.


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#91
(11-25-2016, 04:47 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: We Americans are in for a very hard lesson in civics for the next four years.

I hope we don't flunk the class again, as we did in 2004.
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive;
Eric M
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#92
The head of American education is going to be the daughter in law of the founder of an infamous pyramid scheme. Wonderful....
#MakeTheDemocratsGreatAgain
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#93
[Image: 15134715_10209919953508408_5560756563939...e=58C2DF99]
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive;
Eric M
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#94
[Image: 15134744_1815322368740674_62356891691847...e=58CC04D6]
[Image: 15219374_1815322392074005_85105695057126...e=58B16358]

Sebastiano Grasso:
TRUMP SPENT THANKSGIVING AT a VERY flashy Mar-a-Lago resort = WHILE PRESIDENT OBAMA served meals at an armed forces retirement home.
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive;
Eric M
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#95
(11-27-2016, 12:41 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: [Image: 15134715_10209919953508408_5560756563939...e=58C2DF99]

Considering how bad the public schools are how is any of this a problem.  At this point I am looking forward to see public employee unions go away.  Lets see how the Democrats do without Teacher's Union money.
Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard. -- H.L. Mencken

If one rejects laissez faire on account of man's fallibility and moral weakness, one must for the same reason also reject every kind of government action.   -- Ludwig von Mises
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#96
(11-27-2016, 12:48 AM)Galen Wrote: Considering how bad the public schools are how is any of this a problem.  At this point I am looking forward to see public employee unions go away.  Lets see how the Democrats do without Teacher's Union money.

Let's see how well public education does when teachers are paid like retail sales clerks.

For-profit education? Do you mean like the infamous Corinthian Colleges that induced students to borrow heavily in federally-insured student loans and gave bad vocational education? The Obama Administration cut off the student loans and Corinthian Colleges shut down. I understand that the Trump Administration wants to bring back such shyster schools.

Private schooling can do well when it cherry-picks elite students. So what? There are easy students to teach, and difficult ones. Public schools end up with many of the disabled and dull students. In  many schools and school districts, public schools double as social-service agencies, an added cost for dealing with students with problems. Let's say that the kids' parents have been busted for meth, and the kids have traumatic experiences of facing the Big Blue Meanies (the police) taking Mommy and Daddy away again, perhaps this time for ten-to-life. As a substitute I have had encountered such kids. it is not easy.
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated Communist  but instead the people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists -- Hannah Arendt.


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#97
Indeed, at just the time when there was talk about the need for someone other than the police to be social workers in poor communities, the people of Galen's persuasion are back in power and able to cut off social services and education even more. What the right-wing wants is for the poor and people of color to suffer, apparently. They want them to rise up, and get themselves shot and jailed by racist police. They are not satisfied with 40 years of national decline; they want more and more.
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive;
Eric M
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#98
(11-27-2016, 03:55 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: Indeed, at just the time when there was talk about the need for someone other than the police to be social workers in poor communities, the people of Galen's persuasion are back in power and able to cut off social services and education even more. What the right-wing wants is for the poor and people of color to suffer, apparently. They want them to rise up, and get themselves shot and jailed by racist police. They are not satisfied with 40 years of national decline; they want more and more.

Not really, its just that government is so inefficient.
Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard. -- H.L. Mencken

If one rejects laissez faire on account of man's fallibility and moral weakness, one must for the same reason also reject every kind of government action.   -- Ludwig von Mises
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#99
(11-27-2016, 03:55 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: Indeed, at just the time when there was talk about the need for someone other than the police to be social workers in poor communities, the people of Galen's persuasion are back in power and able to cut off social services and education even more. What the right-wing wants is for the poor and people of color to suffer, apparently. They want them to rise up, and get themselves shot and jailed by racist police. They are not satisfied with 40 years of national decline; they want more and more.

There are racists and bad cops out there.  The entire Republican party, however, is not made up of racists and bad cops.  They just don't see as much of the problems we see in urban areas and don't want to spend a ton of money solving problems that they don't tend to see.

Thus, the above would be in some respects a vile stereotype, a slanderous negative image of those you disagree with.  To the degree you indulge yourself in such thinking and tell other people what they think, you aren't listening or growing.

The last election had both factions talking to their own bases in a "we're the good guys, they're the bad guys" partisan angle.  The degree to which the Democrats couldn't understand or didn't care about large parts of the country became a disaster for progressives.  I'd like to see one party or the other try to govern the whole country, not just the parts that have bought into their particular scheme.
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You know you're on the right side when the opposition is burning flags and mourning Castro.
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