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(08-23-2017, 12:25 PM)noway2 Wrote: [ -> ]
Quote:You're full of crap. Many Xers still adore Reagan.
That's why he is commonly, and not so affectionately, referred to as Saint Ray Gun?

I still remember the old joke, Q: "Why does Nancy Reagan sleep on top?" A: "Because Ronnie can only fuck up".

Very good joke lol
I've been noting an emphasis on the antifa in the way right press, and an emphasis on the phrase 'Alt Left'.  This tries to suggests the left is as violent and prejudiced as the right, and thus justify what the 'Alt Right', neo confederates and neo Nazis are doing.

I for one don't see anything to gain from escalating the spiral of violence, but some seem inclined to do so.  Some of it is just being young and male.  With all that testosterone, it feels good to some to hit somebody.  I suspect a lot of the violence is just testosterone.

Has anyone encountered real people calling themselves the 'Alt Left', or is it all a propaganda ploy be Breitbart and company?  Has anyone here actually thrown a punch or swung a club?
Kinser -- when Obama was President the FBI was investigating criminals and the CIA was spying on terrorists. With Trump as President the FBI is spying on the President and his hangers-on, and the CIA is spying on people connected to the President.

That is no trivial difference.
(08-27-2017, 02:56 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]I've been noting an emphasis on the antifa in the way right press, and an emphasis on the phrase 'Alt Left'.  This tries to suggests the left is as violent and prejudiced as the right, and thus justify what the 'Alt Right', neo confederates and neo Nazis are doing.

Anyone not prejudiced against fascists is a fool.

Could Antifa be authoritarian? Sure. It could decide that anyone to the right of Bernie Sanders is a fascist.... which is a bad way to go. It has never been in such a position yet. 

The Hard Right adopted the "Alt Right" label, and the left-wing opposition to the Hard Right now finds that right-wing media have affixed the unwelcome label "Alt Left".

Anyone who consorts with genocidal tyrants, nostalgia for a slave system, or Apartheid/Jim Crow soils himself. Nazi and Confederate flags marching together? That hurts anyone who wants a connection to ancestors who fought in the Civil War in what those ancestors considered a noble cause. But this said, anyone who associates with Stalin, Mao, and Pol Pot soils himself, too.


Quote:I for one don't see anything to gain from escalating the spiral of violence, but some seem inclined to do so.  Some of it is just being young and male.  With all that testosterone, it feels good to some to hit somebody.  I suspect a lot of the violence is just testosterone.


It is remembering that all fascist causes are best described as young men's clubs (not to be confused with the YMCA). Anger and testosterone make a dangerous mix. Someone who sees himself as a reject for not having a job despite wanting one? Fascists offer him a uniform, a direction, a purpose, and discipline, just like an army. Maybe even a weapon.

Quote:Has anyone encountered real people calling themselves the 'Alt Left', or is it all a propaganda ploy be Breitbart and company?  Has anyone here actually thrown a punch or swung a club?

It's an attempt to brand people who oppose Ku Kluxism, neo-Nazism, and the worst rhetoric of Donald Trump as 'fascists just the same'.
(08-27-2017, 02:56 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]I've been noting an emphasis on the antifa in the way right press, and an emphasis on the phrase 'Alt Left'.  This tries to suggests the left is as violent and prejudiced as the right, and thus justify what the 'Alt Right', neo confederates and neo Nazis are doing.

I for one don't see anything to gain from escalating the spiral of violence, but some seem inclined to do so.  Some of it is just being young and male.  With all that testosterone, it feels good to some to hit somebody.  I suspect a lot of the violence is just testosterone.

Has anyone encountered real people calling themselves the 'Alt Left', or is it all a propaganda ploy be Breitbart and company?  Has anyone here actually thrown a punch or swung a club?

The Alt-Left is part of memetic warfare.  Not that I expect you to get it.  Boomers don't seem capable of understanding memes to any great degree.

In general the term Alt-Right is applied to Right Populists, and White Identitarians to distinguish them from the milquetoast GOP types.  The Alt-Left is a counter-propaganda meme used to combat that.  As to what the alt-left calls themselves, well they usually term themselves as Progressives, or Antifa or Black Lives Matter (since you seem to think BLM stands for Bureau of Land Management).

The last one is most troubling because they want to destroy the law enforcement agencies, the very agencies most likely to be called to deal with the crime problem brought on by the effects of the welfare state on the black population.
(08-27-2017, 04:59 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]Kinser -- when Obama was President the FBI was investigating criminals and the CIA was spying on terrorists. With Trump as President the FBI is spying on the President and his hangers-on, and the CIA is spying on people connected to the President.

That is no trivial difference.

The last time this was true was when JFK was president as well.  Both times the President was an existental threat to the Deep State, that is to say, the swamp.
(08-28-2017, 10:51 AM)X_4AD_84 Wrote: [ -> ]
(08-27-2017, 02:56 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]I've been noting an emphasis on the antifa in the way right press, and an emphasis on the phrase 'Alt Left'.  This tries to suggests the left is as violent and prejudiced as the right, and thus justify what the 'Alt Right', neo confederates and neo Nazis are doing.

I for one don't see anything to gain from escalating the spiral of violence, but some seem inclined to do so.  Some of it is just being young and male.  With all that testosterone, it feels good to some to hit somebody.  I suspect a lot of the violence is just testosterone.

Has anyone encountered real people calling themselves the 'Alt Left', or is it all a propaganda ploy be Breitbart and company?  Has anyone here actually thrown a punch or swung a club?

No doubt there are a few Black Block folks and folks at the extreme end of the Antifa spectrum who are now getting violent. In a way I do not blame them. They look at history and see many opportunities to strike back early at Totalitarianism that were not taken. The Jews in Germany and other places in Europe could have been more brutal in response to harassment. That having been written, most of this "Alt-Left" business is agitprop from the Duginist scum. I write that from a True Right perspective, BTW. Duginists are not True Rightists. They are revolutionary scum.

I see no evidence that antifa types are Duginists; quite the opposite. However, they are on the Left no doubt about that.
We have CNN reporting Trump to lift military gear ban for local police.  Reportedly, military gear without proper training has resulted in a militaristic attitude among police that may contribute to civilian deaths.  Obama tried to fight it a bit.  Trump is reversing course.  I'll keep an eye out for the right wing view on things.
(08-27-2017, 04:59 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]Kinser -- when Obama was President the FBI was investigating criminals and the CIA was spying on terrorists. With Trump as President the FBI is spying on the President and his hangers-on, and the CIA is spying on people connected to the President.

That is no trivial difference.

Bob Butler Wrote:I've been noting an emphasis on the antifa in the way right press, and an emphasis on the phrase 'Alt Left'.  This tries to suggests the left is as violent and prejudiced as the right, and thus justify what the 'Alt Right', neo confederates and neo Nazis are doing.

Yes, assorted spin which can approach Hurricane Harvey levels is at best confusing and at worst unleashes devastation.

So...
"Alt-Right" is a meme which has assorted groups which fall mostly in the right-authoritarian quad of the political compass. I say mostly, since the tag is very obtuse.  I prefer to called the undesirables in that quad, "the white supremacist groups. So, that's the tag I prefer since it's more precise.

"Alt-Left" is also fuzzy.  You mentioned antifa.  They suck just as much as white supremacists because...
attacked person is not a skin head, but rather said person shaved his head or is just bald, MAGA hat wearers,
press coverage, and most of all, you have some minor difference of opinion. IOW I think a bunch of hormone addled young men are in touch with their inner bull. Cool







[/quote]

Try again.  Both antifa and right supremacists are both equally evil.


They're terrorists.

XY_MOD_4AD Wrote:I've been noting an emphasis on the antifa in the way right press, and an emphasis on the phrase 'Alt Left'.  This tries to suggests the left is as violent and prejudiced as the right, and thus justify what the 'Alt Right', neo confederates and neo Nazis are doing.






From the horse's mouth:
http://wtvr.com/2017/08/14/cbs-6-journal...d-protest/


Rats and roaches are more deserving of biomass than radical crackpots on both sides and... and pox on both houses.


---
Rags - of utmost service.   and... Fair and balanced in the no spin zone.
Not equally evil, because antifa seeks to stop fascism before it starts. We have no idea what kind of government antifa would institute. But yes both are wrong because they are too violent and lawless.
(08-28-2017, 04:49 PM)X_4AD_84 Wrote: [ -> ]
(08-28-2017, 02:31 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]
(08-28-2017, 10:51 AM)X_4AD_84 Wrote: [ -> ]
(08-27-2017, 02:56 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]I've been noting an emphasis on the antifa in the way right press, and an emphasis on the phrase 'Alt Left'.  This tries to suggests the left is as violent and prejudiced as the right, and thus justify what the 'Alt Right', neo confederates and neo Nazis are doing.

I for one don't see anything to gain from escalating the spiral of violence, but some seem inclined to do so.  Some of it is just being young and male.  With all that testosterone, it feels good to some to hit somebody.  I suspect a lot of the violence is just testosterone.

Has anyone encountered real people calling themselves the 'Alt Left', or is it all a propaganda ploy be Breitbart and company?  Has anyone here actually thrown a punch or swung a club?

No doubt there are a few Black Block folks and folks at the extreme end of the Antifa spectrum who are now getting violent. In a way I do not blame them. They look at history and see many opportunities to strike back early at Totalitarianism that were not taken. The Jews in Germany and other places in Europe could have been more brutal in response to harassment. That having been written, most of this "Alt-Left" business is agitprop from the Duginist scum. I write that from a True Right perspective, BTW. Duginists are not True Rightists. They are revolutionary scum.

I see no evidence that antifa types are Duginists; quite the opposite. However, they are on the Left no doubt about that.

Eric read more carefully. I wrote 'That having been written, most of this "Alt-Left" business is agitprop from the Duginist scum.'

OK, so noted. I don't know what "agitprop" meant (I can guess now). But I am not good with acronyms and made-up words.
(08-28-2017, 10:24 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]Not equally evil, because antifa seeks to stop fascism before it starts. We have no idea what kind of government antifa would institute. But yes both are wrong because they are too violent and lawless.

https://www.reddit.com/r/DebateCommunism...iscussion/

Yes they are. So yeah, I think Hitler/Mussulini/Mao/Stalin/Khmer Rouge are all equally evil.


And... It looks like some of the MSM is "woke". Cool

After all,   I'm sure somewhere in the food chain, there's a "media gets the bullet too."

Too "Bourgeoisie".

https://www.reddit.com/r/antifa/comments..._peaceful/
(08-28-2017, 10:50 PM)Ragnarök_62 Wrote: [ -> ]
(08-28-2017, 10:24 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]Not equally evil, because antifa seeks to stop fascism before it starts. We have no idea what kind of government antifa would institute. But yes both are wrong because they are too violent and lawless.

https://www.reddit.com/r/DebateCommunism...iscussion/

Yes they are. So yeah, I think Hitler/Mussulini/Mao/Stalin/Khmer Rouge are all equally evil.

Yes, those 5 are. But antifa is not those guys/

Reports may have been wrong about what happened in Berkeley this week. My friend Teed and others there said otherwise.

quote from his facebook post:

Teed Rockwell This time around there was no property damage by the black block, and most sources say no physical attacks on people (although there was a lot of shouts and threats.)
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Nancy P. Stork NPR said the man you mention was assaulted.
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Susa Morgan Black In the news story this morning, it showed liberals refusing to join Antifa because of their violence. My group stayed on campus because we didn't want to be part of the violent confrontation.
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Artemisia Barden I saw the anarchist black bloc of anti-fascists *escorting* white supremacists (including a guy wearing an Identity Europa T-shirt) over to the police. Without touching them. In cases where there were skirmishes, I suspect it depended on whether thealt-Reich led off being violent - the black bloc seemed pretty restrained. The one press guy (Somerville) who went off about them was taking pictures of them against their expressed wish for him not to. And yes Teed, no property damage.
(08-28-2017, 11:03 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]
(08-28-2017, 10:50 PM)Ragnarök_62 Wrote: [ -> ]
(08-28-2017, 10:24 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]Not equally evil, because antifa seeks to stop fascism before it starts. We have no idea what kind of government antifa would institute. But yes both are wrong because they are too violent and lawless.

https://www.reddit.com/r/DebateCommunism...iscussion/

Yes they are. So yeah, I think Hitler/Mussulini/Mao/Stalin/Khmer Rouge are all equally evil.

Yes, those 5 are. But antifa is not those guys/

Reports may have been wrong about what happened in Berkeley this week. My friend Teed and others there said otherwise.

quote from his facebook post:

Teed Rockwell This time around there was no property damage by the black block, and most sources say no physical attacks on people (although there was a lot of shouts and threats.)
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[Image: 12196182_10156195576890223_6099208148310...e=5A19388C]
Nancy P. Stork NPR said the man you mention was assaulted.
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[Image: 63050_436815643854_1597745_n.jpg?oh=f6b8...e=5A277653]
Susa Morgan Black In the news story this morning, it showed liberals refusing to join Antifa because of their violence. My group stayed on campus because we didn't want to be part of the violent confrontation.
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[Image: 20664852_1457331957676731_23084607427716...e=5A2CA4C7]
Artemisia Barden I saw the anarchist black bloc of anti-fascists *escorting* white supremacists (including a guy wearing an Identity Europa T-shirt) over to the police. Without touching them. In cases where there were skirmishes, I suspect it depended on whether thealt-Reich led off being violent - the black bloc seemed pretty restrained. The one press guy (Somerville) who went off about them was taking pictures of them against their expressed wish for him not to. And yes Teed, no property damage.

"In the news story this morning, it showed liberals refusing to join Antifa because of their violence. My group stayed on campus because we didn't want to be part of the violent confrontation."

Uh, please read the above again. I think Antifa is evil ... because of their violence. 

PS.  Wrt Berkely riots, the property damage was in the winter.





Hmmm...... I think your buddy has been smoking some mother nature to miss this.


Yet another MSM awakes!





#NoMoreMasks. Cool

---
Rags ---  "Woke" all along.  
I do dislike Antifa, in good part due to their violent habits. I would not be surprised by partisan press spinning to forward their agenda.
(08-28-2017, 10:24 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]Not equally evil, because antifa seeks to stop fascism before it starts. We have no idea what kind of government antifa would institute. But yes both are wrong because they are too violent and lawless.

Actually we have a very good idea, since their goal is to 'destroy capitalism' and they fly anarchocommunist flags.  Stalinism is at the end of that road. They might not be exactly equal - Stalin killed several times more people than Hitler - but they're on the same level.
(08-29-2017, 10:16 AM)Warren Dew Wrote: [ -> ]
(08-28-2017, 10:24 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]Not equally evil, because antifa seeks to stop fascism before it starts. We have no idea what kind of government antifa would institute. But yes both are wrong because they are too violent and lawless.

Actually we have a very good idea, since their goal is to 'destroy capitalism' and they fly anarchocommunist flags.  Stalinism is at the end of that road.  They might not be exactly equal - Stalin killed several times more people than Hitler - but they're on the same level.

They aren't even close.  Marxist-Leninists look at the Antifa crowd and laugh.  They are at most useful idiots for the Stalinists who follow in their wake, and they are always the first to the Gulags after the revolution.
(08-28-2017, 11:30 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]I do dislike Antifa, in good part due to their violent habits.  I would not be surprised by partisan press spinning to forward their agenda.

It doesn't get more partisan than MSDNC with their token cuckservative Joe Scarborough.
(08-29-2017, 10:16 AM)Warren Dew Wrote: [ -> ]
(08-28-2017, 10:24 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]Not equally evil, because antifa seeks to stop fascism before it starts. We have no idea what kind of government antifa would institute. But yes both are wrong because they are too violent and lawless.

Actually we have a very good idea, since their goal is to 'destroy capitalism' and they fly anarchocommunist flags.  Stalinism is at the end of that road.  They might not be exactly equal - Stalin killed several times more people than Hitler - but they're on the same level.

No, the ideals of the antifa are not Stalinism, and Stalinism is not the end of that road. The anarcho element should be a clue. They are leftists, but the Left does not equal Stalin. That type of totalitarianism was intended to impose industrialism on poor backward peoples, and flourished in countries that were used to centuries of tyrannical imperial rule and did not know democracy. I can't say for sure what they mean by "destroy capitalism," but my suspicion is that they want to take down the huge corporate state that concentrates wealth and power and uses it to drain the prosperity, peace and ecological sustainability of the world.

I don't even know if most participants in antifa have any other goal but to oppose fascism and protest against their rallies and speeches.
http://www.npr.org/2017/08/26/546323215/...-at-antifa

"What does antifa actually want?
Sean Illing
Antifa defines itself in purely negative terms, in terms of what they’re against. But what do they want? Do they have any concrete political goals?

Mark Bray
That’s a great question, and one that often gets overlooked. For the most part, these are pan-leftist groups composed of leftists of different stripes. They all seem to have different views of what they think the ideal social order looks like. Some of them are Marxists, some are Leninists, some are social democrats or anarchists. But they cohere around a response to what they perceive as a common threat."
https://www.vox.com/2017/8/25/16189064/a...-interview

You can't narrow down the views of these leftists into a particular program; it is a loose coalition of revolutionaries. They are not liberal Democrats.

I'm sure all this is enough to earn your opposition, Warren. But lots of people will not agree with your opinion that their movement leads to Stalinism.
(08-28-2017, 11:30 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]I do dislike Antifa, in good part due to their violent habits.  I would not be surprised by partisan press spinning to forward their agenda.

Yes, mainly Republican partisan spinning that emphasizes their violent tendencies, and this apparently works well to make them the scapegoat and to support Trump's contention that "both sides" are the problem.
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