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(09-19-2017, 12:29 AM)Kinser79. Wrote: [ -> ]I don't know what the Antifas and the libtards are on but it isn't weed.  I'm sticking by my theory that they have a mental illness.  It should be noted for those who aren't paying attention that Benjamin Shapiro is a Conservative and Practicing Orthodox Jew.  As I've said before, to these clowns anyone to the right of Mao is literally Hitler.

Well you're one to talk.  Not too long ago you were a Marxist-Leninist of the Stalinist persuasion Smile
(09-19-2017, 05:20 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-19-2017, 12:29 AM)Kinser79 Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-18-2017, 08:40 PM)Ragnarök_62 Wrote: [ -> ]I'm not sure if I get what your stating wrt Martin Luther King vs. Malcolm X.

I believe that he is alluding to the fact that the nonviolent change achieved by MLK was mostly the result of the fact that his version of change was preferable to the violent change that Malcolm X was willing to engage in.  The Civil Rights Movement used a good cop/bad cop method.  In that particular case MLK played the good cop while Malcolm the bad cop.  It was similar to the Indian Independence movement with Gandhi playing good cop while the Hindu Ultranationalist played the bad cops.

I'm not sure I'd use variations of the word 'play'.  Lots of folks would have been quite in earnest.  Other than that, he's got the right idea.

I can't say that "acted" is much better of a word choice.  So unless you have something to quibble over other than semantics....
(09-19-2017, 03:38 PM)Mikebert Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-19-2017, 12:29 AM)Kinser79. Wrote: [ -> ]I don't know what the Antifas and the libtards are on but it isn't weed.  I'm sticking by my theory that they have a mental illness.  It should be noted for those who aren't paying attention that Benjamin Shapiro is a Conservative and Practicing Orthodox Jew.  As I've said before, to these clowns anyone to the right of Mao is literally Hitler.

Well you're one to talk.  Not too long ago you were a Marxist-Leninist of the Stalinist persuasion Smile

Actually even while a Marxist-Leninist I never accused Benjamin Shapiro of being a Nazi.  I didn't agree with him, in fact I still don't, but he is not a Nazi--if I had to pen him down I'd say he is an establishment Republican with Neocon tendencies.  Though those neocon tendencies could just be a manifestation of his Zionist leanings.

Also it should be noted that Marxist-Leninists have a great disdain for the Antifa types going so far as to call them "useful idiots" very directly.  As I've alluded to previously in my time in the leadership of a Marxist-Leninist party I've told lower ranked comrades to indulge the local antifa, we'd send them to the gulag first "after rev".

Yep, it isn't the fascist or even the conservative/religious types that go first.  It is the rabble rousing useful idiots that go first.  The idea being that  they are a threat to the new elite of the the state (that is to say, the Party), and a greater threat than any conservative forces seeing as the ML Party in question worked with them relatively closely while counter-revolutionary forces are generally scattered after a successful revolution.
(09-19-2017, 12:19 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]OK.  Let's assume no racial or gender group is good at flying.

I would say that humans in general are not capable of flight apart from using technology that is capable of flight. (Airplanes, Airships and the like). But it is clear that you missed my entire point by bringing up the "flying fags" meme.

In the Middle East in areas controlled by the likes of Isis and so-on it is well known that they routinely execute persons accused of homosexuality by throwing them from the tallest local building. This has been documented on MSM sources as well as alt-media so you really don't have an excuse as to not understanding the meme at all.

 
Quote: Other than that, you seem to have evaded the question.  Of course, the question wasn't really asked well.

I would counter that PBR didn't ask a question, and as such I was under no compunction to answer one. Rather what PBR was doing as using a canned response. He calls me a True Believer at least once a week. As such I counter his canned response with one of my own.

The thing you have to realize about him Bob is that he has a limited intellect. Since we are fairly certain he didn't burn up his brain cells taking mad hallucinogenics during the 2T, unlike some other posters here, I have to assume that PBR is merely stupid, though thankfully not stoopid (and yes there is a difference).

After all in his post immediately following mine he openly admits that his world view "has not changed much" since he was in College. This leads one to assume one of two possibilities:

A. PBR has not encountered new information which has required him to change his view points (which he later goes on in that same post to refute)

OR

B. PBR has encountered new information which for others would have require a change in view points but yet maintains those view points despite their inconsistency with reality.

Since we know he probably has clinical depression, and he claims to have a spectrum disorder; neither of which are psychoses, we must conclude therefore he has not changed his views with new information to either values lock or limited intellect since he is not insane. Unlike with you, I think in his case it is the latter since he rarely if ever makes new arguments. Much less well reasoned ones. I'd be more forgiving if he made new arguments even if they weren't well reasoned, for example my son often throws ideas around like mud to see which ones will stick--but that is of course to be expected of a teenager.

I'm not going to bother with the rest of your post as you really are chasing your tail after that last point.

As for the "What is he smoking and can I get some?" that is a stoner meme. A pre-internet meme too, this meme was circulating when I was a teenager, and most people didn't even have the internet back in 1995. The idea being that if someone is smoking something that makes them say things that literally sound completely deranged the drug in question (typically marijuana) is some highly potent stuff, and thus desirable.

When I was about my son's age some friends and I smoked weed all day and had our long "philosophizing" sessions which we recorded. The idea being that we in our inebriated state thought we were being profound, but after sobering up and listening to the recording discovered that mostly we sounded stupid.

In part that is one of the reasons why I've long advocated total legalization for marijuana. Not only is it socially harmless in the absence of prohibition, but its main effects are "laughing at things which aren't particularly funny" and "eating things that are not particularly healthy".
(09-19-2017, 09:33 PM)Kinser79 Wrote: [ -> ]Unlike with you, I think in his case it is the latter since he rarely if ever makes new arguments.

I think you've got that backwards.  Most people have to encounter new ideas more than once if they are counter to a lifetime of propaganda exposure - especially when the propaganda specifically includes simplistic ways to reject those ideas.  In addition, I believe, he has a vested interest in the welfare system.  Get him a job that takes him off welfare for a few years, and he might suddenly become open minded.
(09-19-2017, 09:33 PM)Kinser79 Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-19-2017, 12:19 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]OK.  Let's assume no racial or gender group is good at flying.

I would say that humans in general are not capable of flight apart from using technology that is capable of flight.  (Airplanes, Airships and the like).  But it is clear that you missed my entire point by bringing up the "flying fags" meme.

In the Middle East in areas controlled by the likes of Isis and so-on it is well known that they routinely execute persons accused of homosexuality by throwing them from the tallest local building.  This has been documented on MSM sources as well as alt-media so you really don't have an excuse as to not understanding the meme at all.

It seems I needed a smilie face.  Usually you can read the implied one...

(09-19-2017, 09:33 PM)Kinser79 Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-19-2017, 12:19 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]Other than that, you seem to have evaded the question.  Of course, the question wasn't really asked well.

I would counter that PBR didn't ask a question, and as such I was under no compunction to answer one.  Rather what PBR was doing as using a canned response...  He calls me a True Believer at least once a week.  As such I counter his canned response with one of my own.
 

I see PBR as more capable than you see him, but he's a big enough boy that I'm not going to get involved in that particular tangled mess of strawmen and stereotypes.  Yes, if you are both going that route, repeating memes without much listening, you'll both be going in circles indefinitely, and have seemingly closed to a single circle.  That seems satisfactory, anyway.  If all you two want to to is repeat the same old insults repeatedly, you have a fine little pattern.

But the True Believer meme merges well enough with my own values lock and world views that it would be nice to be able to tell a beneficial vantage point from a gung ho fanatic's.  You seem to have a gung ho....  Er...  an unusual enough viewpoint that you be worth a serious ask.  Wink

Or maybe not.  I have been exploring the concept of 'harm' a lot lately.  We may have incompatible views on that.

You may even have a helmet even...  Wink
(09-19-2017, 09:44 PM)Warren Dew Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-19-2017, 09:33 PM)Kinser79 Wrote: [ -> ]Unlike with you, I think in his case it is the latter since he rarely if ever makes new arguments.

I think you've got that backwards.  Most people have to encounter new ideas more than once if they are counter to a lifetime of propaganda exposure - especially when the propaganda specifically includes simplistic ways to reject those ideas.  In addition, I believe, he has a vested interest in the welfare system.  Get him a job that takes him off welfare for a few years, and he might suddenly become open minded.

I would not doubt that PBR has a vested interest in maintaining the welfare state, however, I have seen little evidence of his supposed intellgence.

As for countering a lifetime of exposure to propaganda, I did it.  Of course having been a Marxist-Leninist and a propagandist myself it was far easier for me to detect what is propaganda.
(09-19-2017, 10:14 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-19-2017, 09:33 PM)Kinser79 Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-19-2017, 12:19 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]OK.  Let's assume no racial or gender group is good at flying.

I would say that humans in general are not capable of flight apart from using technology that is capable of flight.  (Airplanes, Airships and the like).  But it is clear that you missed my entire point by bringing up the "flying fags" meme.

In the Middle East in areas controlled by the likes of Isis and so-on it is well known that they routinely execute persons accused of homosexuality by throwing them from the tallest local building.  This has been documented on MSM sources as well as alt-media so you really don't have an excuse as to not understanding the meme at all.

It seems I needed a smilie face.  Usually you can read the implied one...

It would have been prudent to have inserted the appropriate emoji in the passage as the style in which it was written was not clearly indicative of being sarcasm/humor. I find in internet based text communication that if you're unsure if you should put the emoji in, then you probably should put the emoji in.

Worst case scenario the recipient may say your joke was in poor taste.

Quote:
(09-19-2017, 09:33 PM)Kinser79 Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-19-2017, 12:19 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]Other than that, you seem to have evaded the question.  Of course, the question wasn't really asked well.

I would counter that PBR didn't ask a question, and as such I was under no compunction to answer one.  Rather what PBR was doing as using a canned response...  He calls me a True Believer at least once a week.  As such I counter his canned response with one of my own.
 

I see PBR as more capable than you see him, but he's a big enough boy that I'm not going to get involved in that particular tangled mess of strawmen and stereotypes.  Yes, if you are both going that route, repeating memes without much listening, you'll both be going in circles indefinitely, and have seemingly closed to a single circle.  That seems satisfactory, anyway.  If all you two want to to is repeat the same old insults repeatedly, you have a fine little pattern.

Actually I consider PBR to be a cheap form of entertainment. At least unlike with Eric the Ignoramus I don't feel dumber for typing at him. But I base my viewpoint of him on his actions here. He might be skilled in things I don't know about, I'm completely open to that. However, making new arguments is not one of those skills.

Quote:But the True Believer meme merges well enough with my own values lock and world views that it would be nice to be able to tell a beneficial vantage point from a gung ho fanatic's.  You seem to have a gung ho....  Er...  an unusual enough viewpoint that you be worth a serious ask.  Wink

Alright then. I would say that everyone is essentially a True Believer at least in their own world view, and at least at the time they are making a statement expressing that world view.

As for my view point being unusual, I wouldn't agree. There are millions of black Americans who not only voted for the President but also support him. In fact the usual trappings of what is thought of as social conservatism is far more common amongst blacks in the US than whites. The main point of divergence for me from most other blacks is that I decided to stop voting for the guys with D's behind their names because they really weren't representing what I wanted, or believed in. If anything I'm more in line politically with my sperm donor now than at any time previously, which quite honestly is somewhat disconcerting.

Quote:Or maybe not.  I have been exploring the concept of 'harm' a lot lately.  We may have incompatible views on that.

We would. I view harm as being actual harm and not a third party's perception of what 'harm' might be or entail. Mostly because the concept of what is and is not harm is so simple that it is only when one tries to overcomplicate it that one ends up in an ideological quagmire. KISS isn't just a name for a mediocre band.

Quote:You may even have a helmet even...  Wink

I have two helmets, three if you count the bicycle one that I only wear if the BF is watching (otherwise I don't because it looks ridiculous).

I have my grandfather's M-1 helmet from WW2 and a Soviet Sh-40 helmet which I purchased when in Russia a number of years ago. It was probably military surplus. I have and still maintain my collection of Soviet paraphernalia.
Disability. Asperger's will shorten just about any career.
(09-19-2017, 10:40 PM)Kinser79 Wrote: [ -> ]Actually I consider PBR to be a cheap form of entertainment.  At least unlike with Eric the Ignoramus I don't feel dumber for typing at him.  But I base my viewpoint of him on his actions here.  He might be skilled in things I don't know about, I'm completely open to that.  However, making new arguments is not one of those skills.

Or your world views are incompatible.  They are.  It is tempting to treat someone with incompatible worldview as insane, stupid, brainwashed, etc...  It's almost traditional here to stop meaningful conversation and reject wholesale once world view incompatibility seems established.  It certainly is not a one way street.

(09-19-2017, 10:40 PM)Kinser79 Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-19-2017, 10:14 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]But the True Believer meme merges well enough with my own values lock and world views that it would be nice to be able to tell a beneficial vantage point from a gung ho fanatic's.  You seem to have a gung ho....  Er...  an unusual enough viewpoint that you be worth a serious ask.  Wink

Alright then.  I would say that everyone is essentially a True Believer at least in their own world view, and at least at the time they are making a statement expressing that world view.

As for my view point being unusual, I wouldn't agree.  There are millions of black Americans who not only voted for the President but also support him.  In fact the usual trappings of what is thought of as social conservatism is far more common among blacks in the US than whites.  The main point of divergence for me from most other blacks is that I decided to stop voting for the guys with D's behind their names because they really weren't representing what I wanted, or believed in.  If anything I'm more in line politically with my sperm donor now than at any time previously, which quite honestly is somewhat disconcerting.

That's an appropriate specific answer at one level, but misses the point I was after.  How does one tell a True Believer from someone who just has a worldview and is interested in politics?  The above is insightful as far as it goes...

A good part of it is perhaps how far along one is in the spiral of violence.  I mean, you seem to have more helmets than I do, but have you built and detonated truck bombs next to day care centers, driven airplanes into occupied office buildings or (gasp) thrown tea into a harbor?  Most of the example true believers described come from revolutionary times.  The need for change is seen as much greater than the value of the lives of people who belong to another tribe anyway.  Thus, to an ordinary civilian who has not lived and personally perceived the need for change, the acts that are done will be horrible, unimaginable.  Thus, the 'True Believer' might be seen as being a less than sane person of a different type that the ordinary.

It is just that they know the need for change personally and are as locked into one way of seeing things as many are.

My feeling is that on this side of the Atlantic, it is easy to find someone with a narrow and focused worldview.  It is not that easy to find such a person with no value for life, whose spiral of violence has overflowed.  In other parts of the world, the need for change is much more acute, and it would be correspondingly easy to find fanatics, to find the 'True Believer' of the book.

The practical example would be that it is nearly impossible to get people on the forum to listen outside their worldview, but it would be similarly impossible to convince someone to pick up a weapon and seek a permanent solution to another forum contributor.

(09-19-2017, 10:40 PM)Kinser79 Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-19-2017, 10:14 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]You may even have a helmet even...  Wink
I have two helmets, three if you count the bicycle one that I only wear if the BF is watching (otherwise I don't because it looks ridiculous).

I have my grandfather's M-1 helmet from WW2 and a Soviet Sh-40 helmet which I purchased when in Russia a number of years ago.  It was probably military surplus.  I have and still maintain my collection of Soviet paraphernalia.

I had a helmet.  I may still have it if I'm willing to search the basement.  It was designed to deflect hockey pucks, did the job against a pair of nunchaku, and formed the base for a few 'hat day' creations for the university band.  Not the same.
(09-19-2017, 10:19 PM)Kinser79 Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-19-2017, 09:44 PM)Warren Dew Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-19-2017, 09:33 PM)Kinser79 Wrote: [ -> ]Unlike with you, I think in his case it is the latter since he rarely if ever makes new arguments.

I think you've got that backwards.  Most people have to encounter new ideas more than once if they are counter to a lifetime of propaganda exposure - especially when the propaganda specifically includes simplistic ways to reject those ideas.  In addition, I believe, he has a vested interest in the welfare system.  Get him a job that takes him off welfare for a few years, and he might suddenly become open minded.

I would not doubt that PBR has a vested interest in maintaining the welfare state, however, I have seen little evidence of his supposed intelligence.

As for countering a lifetime of exposure to propaganda, I did it.  Of course having been a Marxist-Leninist and a propagandist myself it was far easier for me to detect what is propaganda.

I confess. I am little more than my intellect. I do not have as fervent beliefs as you. I can think of few things woreth dying for and even fewer for which to kill.

But you know how it is. If you want to know who has uncertainty about his sexuality, then look for the fellow who brags about being a 'stud'. If you want to know who has the least-valid achievements (especially including finding meaning in life) then look for the person who brags about having his $#!+ together. If you want to know who is mishandling his money, then look for the schmuck who wastes money on status symbols.  I prefer living like a food-processing worker and making a middle-class income to making a middle-class living and trying to live like an aristocrat. With the former one can amass some savings and do some really-great things; with the latter one achieves a debt-driven banality.

I have good cause to see my own failings. I have long despised myself for failing to live up to my potential. It turns out that people have mishandled me badly. Oh yes, I have a drug and alcohol problem -- that is, being so harshly judgmental about addiction.

If I had known about Asperger's when I was young I would have had a very different and much more-rewarding life. If I could get away with Asperger's (and the one good thing about America is that it does reasonably well for people with handicaps) I would probably have a good job, a wife (probably with Asperger's) and children. Adopted, of course. They probably wouldn't look much like us... but at least they would not have the Curse.  People like me are typical fathers of children who end up institutionalized for autism.

If it takes a welfare state to aid children out of poverty, then so be it. I see a cynical solution in poverty in people using welfare to get a sofa, a TV, beer, ice cream, and chips and getting grotesquely obese... and ending up with a coronary. If I must rely upon disability I will make sure to have a dog to walk, food good for me, and something other than the TV. Like Internet access and the desire to seek something really good.
(09-19-2017, 09:44 PM)Warren Dew Wrote: [ -> ]I think you've got that backwards.  Most people have to encounter new ideas more than once if they are counter to a lifetime of propaganda exposure - especially when the propaganda specifically includes simplistic ways to reject those ideas.  In addition, I believe, he has a vested interest in the welfare system.  Get him a job that takes him off welfare for a few years, and he might suddenly become open minded.

When Americans of the red-state mentality can stop making welfare into a bugaboo and scapegoat, and thus their basis for voting, and realize it is just part of a workable society, now needed more than ever in this age of computer automation and globalization, then they will have become more mature and more like grown up adults.
(09-19-2017, 09:44 PM)Warren Dew Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-19-2017, 09:33 PM)Kinser79 Wrote: [ -> ]Unlike with you, I think in his case it is the latter since he rarely if ever makes new arguments.

I think you've got that backwards.  Most people have to encounter new ideas more than once if they are counter to a lifetime of propaganda exposure - especially when the propaganda specifically includes simplistic ways to reject those ideas.  In addition, I believe, he has a vested interest in the welfare system.  Get him a job that takes him off welfare for a few years, and he might suddenly become open minded.

The last paying job that I had was as a substitute school teacher -- so I know how rough poverty can be on students.

If you are talking about a low-paying job in retail, as in a convenience store -- such would really radicalize me.
(09-20-2017, 11:57 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-19-2017, 09:44 PM)Warren Dew Wrote: [ -> ]I think you've got that backwards.  Most people have to encounter new ideas more than once if they are counter to a lifetime of propaganda exposure - especially when the propaganda specifically includes simplistic ways to reject those ideas.  In addition, I believe, he has a vested interest in the welfare system.  Get him a job that takes him off welfare for a few years, and he might suddenly become open minded.

When Americans of the red-state mentality can stop making welfare into a bugaboo and scapegoat, and thus their basis for voting, and realize it is just part of a workable society, now needed more than ever in this age of computer automation and globalization, then they will have become more mature and more like grown up adults.

I should likely just stand back and let you two prove the point.

I can agree that people who have been subjected to a lifetime of propaganda need more than one exposure to new ideas, but it isn't just the red-state (or blue-state) that features a propaganda system that leaves one values locked.  For many, it takes a lot more than a few exposures to get an open mind.  (I assume you two have lost count?)  To a large degree, you are saying the same thing about each other, and it is greatly true.  The problem is real, and nobody has a wide enough vision and large enough group resolve to solve it.

As to the immediate problem, welfare can do only so much when the minimum wage prevents a living wage.  I'd like to see welfare as an emergency measure to hold somebody over a troubled time once, but it is being turned into a way of life by a system that promotes more profits for the already wealthy.  These are parts of the same problem.  Of course, it is easy for the already wealthy to claim it isn't their problem.

And that leads back to a political system where those who can buy the best lawyers, lobbyists, media people and politicians make the rules.  That will take a lot of people getting angry to fix.  The questions include how many, how soon, and how angry.

We shall now return to our abstract philosophical discussion of maybe True Believers needing to see the key problem as more important than the value of human life.
(09-20-2017, 02:13 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]I can agree that people who have been subjected to a lifetime of propaganda need more than one exposure to new ideas, but it isn't just the red-state (or blue-state) that features a propaganda system that leaves one values locked.  For many, it takes a lot more than a few exposures to get an open mind.  (I assume you two have lost count?)  To a large degree, you are saying the same thing about each other, and it is greatly true.  The problem is real, and nobody has a wide enough vision and large enough group resolve to solve it.

But people in central and southeastern Europe generally did not need long to reject Marxism-Leninism, a system that inundates people with propaganda.


Quote:As to the immediate problem, welfare can do only so much when the minimum wage prevents a living wage.  I'd like to see welfare as an emergency measure to hold somebody over a troubled time once, but it is being turned into a way of life by a system that promotes more profits for the already wealthy.  These are parts of the same problem.  Of course, it is easy for the already wealthy to claim it isn't their problem.


The gig economy ensures that people will go from ill-paid work to poverty and back to ill-paid work frequently. Steady employment is no longer an objective of our economic order. Going from one sort of work to another (let us say from resort work to agricultural work to construction) is possible, but the sort of person who can do that would be a highly-desirable long-term employee in many places due to flexibility of abilities and of physical fitness. If there were steady work.



Quote:And that leads back to a political system where those who can buy the best lawyers, lobbyists, media people and politicians make the rules.  That will take a lot of people getting angry to fix.  The questions include how many, how soon, and how angry.


Donald Trump found the anger, but he had no viable solutions.

I will say this of the "red" states of the South: they have swung from conservative epochs to populist epochs in the past, and without obvious indications of doing so. Is anyone certain that the "New South" that gave America such types as Jimmy Carter, Bill Clinton, Al Gore, and John Edwards will not return?

Quote:We shall now return to our abstract philosophical discussion of maybe True Believers needing to see the key problem as more important than the value of human life.

Let us remember that the best defense against the fanatic is the principle that human life is precious even if it has obvious differences  such as hooked noses, an epicanthic fold, or above-average melanin content. Or that it has a different theology. To Hell with Stalinists, Nazis, and ISIS!
(09-19-2017, 09:44 PM)Warren Dew Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-19-2017, 09:33 PM)Kinser79 Wrote: [ -> ]Unlike with you, I think in his case it is the latter since he rarely if ever makes new arguments.

I think you've got that backwards.  Most people have to encounter new ideas more than once if they are counter to a lifetime of propaganda exposure - especially when the propaganda specifically includes simplistic ways to reject those ideas.  In addition, I believe, he has a vested interest in the welfare system.  Get him a job that takes him off welfare for a few years, and he might suddenly become open minded.

That's rich!  For someone to accuse another of being close-minded, you should be bit open-minded yourself.  Yet you continue to peddle supply side economics, especially growth-through-tax-cuts, as axiomatic, when there is no evidence to support it.  More to the point, it's been a dismal failure every time it's been tried.  I cited Kansas and the counter experience of California, and you claimed California was going broke.  Never mind the dynamism of the California economy, apparently the Kansas example was even too much for you to defend.  Have you had a change of heart?
(09-20-2017, 03:29 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-20-2017, 02:13 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]I can agree that people who have been subjected to a lifetime of propaganda need more than one exposure to new ideas, but it isn't just the red-state (or blue-state) that features a propaganda system that leaves one values locked.  For many, it takes a lot more than a few exposures to get an open mind.  (I assume you two have lost count?)  To a large degree, you are saying the same thing about each other, and it is greatly true.  The problem is real, and nobody has a wide enough vision and large enough group resolve to solve it.

But people in central and southeastern Europe generally did not need long to reject Marxism-Leninism, a system that inundates people with propaganda.

I’d like to have a thing to watch for that lets one pick out groups like the Stalinists, NSGHP, ISIS or other clearly dark True Believers.  It is easy to note that the dark True Believers aren’t the only ones lacking a open mind or a theory on how things work.  We can go around in tight circles.

What are significant about the people of central and southeastern Europe?  They have the Catholic background?  That’s as elaborate an indoctrinate system roughly as the Stalinists.  There are complementary political systems to go with it.  Or can the critical difference be found in the spiral of violence.  Were they just close enough to a solution that the idea of being violent is more necessary that the value of life did not go critical?  There is also not that much ground between central Europe and the territory of NSGHP and the Stalinists.  There is also a gap between populations that contain a large number of True Believers, enough to dominate politics, and a population truly sharing the perspective.

I also never got another answer.  What is the politically correct way of referring to the NSGHP?  That seems a bit obscure, but it seems some of conservatives are crazy into political correctness and get upset by perceived insults.  I wouldn’t want to hurt people’s feelings.  The NSGHP are so sensitive, you know.  Wink

(09-20-2017, 03:29 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-20-2017, 02:13 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]And that leads back to a political system where those who can buy the best lawyers, lobbyists, media people and politicians make the rules.  That will take a lot of people getting angry to fix.  The questions include how many, how soon, and how angry.

Donald Trump found the anger, but he had no viable solutions.

Decent evaluation.  One of the few positive things about the Trump phenomena is how angry the Republican base is getting and how badly their protest candidate is failing.  The Democrats also failed with their establishment.  We might be ready for a true shift.

(09-20-2017, 03:29 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]I will say this of the "red" states of the South: they have swung from conservative epochs to populist epochs in the past, and without obvious indications of doing so. Is anyone certain that the "New South" that gave America such types as Jimmy Carter, Bill Clinton, Al Gore, and John Edwards will not return?  

Interesting point.

(09-20-2017, 03:29 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-20-2017, 02:13 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]We shall now return to our abstract philosophical discussion of maybe True Believers needing to see the key problem as more important than the value of human life.

Let us remember that the best defense against the fanatic is the principle that human life is precious even if it has obvious differences  such as hooked noses, an epicanthic fold, or above-average melanin content. Or that it has a different theology. To Hell with Stalinists, Nazis, and ISIS!

Watch out.  Conservatives are so politically correct, and we wouldn't want to hurt any feelings.  Wink  Otherwise, good point...  I hope.  I sometimes wonder.
(09-20-2017, 04:49 PM)David Horn Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-19-2017, 09:44 PM)Warren Dew Wrote: [ -> ]
(09-19-2017, 09:33 PM)Kinser79 Wrote: [ -> ]Unlike with you, I think in his case it is the latter since he rarely if ever makes new arguments.

I think you've got that backwards.  Most people have to encounter new ideas more than once if they are counter to a lifetime of propaganda exposure - especially when the propaganda specifically includes simplistic ways to reject those ideas.  In addition, I believe, he has a vested interest in the welfare system.  Get him a job that takes him off welfare for a few years, and he might suddenly become open minded.

That's rich!  For someone to accuse another of being close-minded, you should be bit open-minded yourself.  Yet you continue to peddle supply side economics, especially growth-through-tax-cuts, as axiomatic, when there is no evidence to support it.  More to the point, it's been a dismal failure every time it's been tried.  I cited Kansas and the counter experience of California, and you claimed California was going broke.  Never mind the dynamism of the California economy, apparently the Kansas example was even too much for you to defend.  Have you had a change of heart?

I wouldn't count on that last.  He hasn't had enough exposures.
(09-18-2017, 10:22 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]Rags wrote: "Where's the denunciation of Antifa's black/red flags and other symbols?  They may as well be adorned with swastikas."

Hmm, I thought Mr. Rags liked black and red. And very loud bllasts of red and black sound assaulting you. Hmmmmm

Yes, that is an inconvenient truth. I'm stuck though since I can't get a copyright on color combinations. "Black widow pattern" isn't patentable either since it already exists in nature.

Very loud blasts:  Oh yeah, those bullhorns.  Antifa for some reason can't rap into their bullhorns.
I have plenty of sobriquets for Nazis, and four have something to do with the Evil One.

The definitive White Devils.
Brown-shirted demons.
National Satanists.
Satan's Servants (the SS).

If I had to choose between being a Nazi and a Jew -- I'd go Jewish. I could keep my culture and my moral values.
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