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02-21-2021, 09:56 PM
(This post was last modified: 02-21-2021, 10:03 PM by Eric the Green.)
(02-21-2021, 09:00 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: (02-21-2021, 03:39 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: We can only hope that the same thing happens to Trump and his movement that happened with his casino building.
Well, I guess we could hope the same happens to the DNC's main head quarter and all its local offices and the offices of its political affiliates too. Do you really want us to go there? I don't care if the Democrats open up another can of worms and America goes there, do you? You should be more careful about what you say because times are about to become more dangerous for Democrats and Progressives as Americans get more pissed and more open to getting rid of them. It's early 4T and your talking like its half way over and you already won.
Your movement needs to implode, just like Trump's stupid building. Trump is a total failure, the worst president ever of the USA. You liars can never be allowed to have power again. We will scream it from the rooftops. We will defeat you fascists, and put you all in jail, if you make it "dangerous" for us to say what we think. So be careful what you say and do, Classic. This 4T is half-over, and by the time it's done, about 8 years from now, you creeps will be shorn of your weapons and your freedom if you fail to behave and to respect the law, our rights and our republic.
Your mentality is almost on the level of Assad. If your side gets back into power, we can be sure that the USA will be the next Syria. We will do all we can to not only prevent this, but move the USA in all the directions that you hate, as fast as we can.
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02-22-2021, 09:05 AM
(This post was last modified: 02-22-2021, 07:40 PM by pbrower2a.)
(02-21-2021, 08:43 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: I'm a loyal American who supported Trump who will support Trump again if decides to run again in 2024. You're a loyal Democrat who will be stuck voting for Harris and stuck with a party on the brink of imploding by then. We got a rough and challenging road ahead of us with an old dude who forgets where he's at, who loses his train of thought and sounds like an imbecile who can't answer hard questions or hop on a plane at anytime. I told you that this wasn't the time to elect a weak leader like you did any way. So, I hope you'll be ready to accept the consequences of doing that in or within the next four years depending on how bad things get before then. You f---ed up and you and every other (offensive cat-call) are going to pay the price for doing it at the wrong time in history. You talk a lot but you don't pay attention to what you say or what you say you believe or the obvious signs associated with the kinds of government that you fear the most and claim that you would never support.
I do not deny that you are loyal to America in the sense that you would never serve in an occupying army or in a puppet government by an occupier, and that you would never divulge state secrets to a foreign power or make propaganda broadcasts -- even if you ever got the opportunity.
The problem is that you are grossly disloyal to a large part of the American people, which includes Democrats, which includes non-Christians, and perhaps people not unambiguously white. Loyalty to America is no more identical with loyalty to the personality of Donald Trump than it meant loyalty to the personality of Barack Obama. I saw few personal flaws in Barack Obama, but I see little more than vice in Donald Trump. Sure, Barack Obama hasn't faced the temptations of capitalist enterprise that might have compelled him to make some ethical compromises on behalf of fellow investors and the quality of life of his family... but he has proved himself an above-average president for making few mistakes, none of them that couldn't be undone. He solved far more problems than he created. Business is not good preparation for politics, even if the business is honorable. If the business record is sleazy or spotty, then one is likely to bring the sleazy or spotty behavior into public office.
Truth be told, the closest analogue to Obama in competence and temperament is Dwight Eisenhower. Just recall the map overlays between Obama and Eisenhower. In 2012 Obama did not win any state that Eisenhower did not win twice except Hawaii (which wasn't voting in the 1950's) or the non-state DC (likewise). What Ike won twice that Obama did not ever win was the Great Plains states, Tennessee (go figure), and most of the Intermountain West. Political culture can change over sixty years, but not that much. All that kept Obama from being a fine conservative President was that he wasn't a full conservative.
Admit this: Donald Trump was a failed President, reflecting in part that he is a horrible person, in part that he had no idea of how to govern, and in part that he held fast to discreditable ideas outside the mainstream.
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated Communist but instead the people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists -- Hannah Arendt.
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(02-21-2021, 05:06 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: (02-21-2021, 04:27 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: (02-21-2021, 04:13 PM)David Horn Wrote: (02-21-2021, 03:39 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: We can only hope that the same thing happens to Trump and his movement that happened with his casino building.
If he implodes, it will be some time before it happens. I suspect his shadow, if not his actual presence, will be felt for the next cycle or two. MAGA losing bigly in 2022/4 will hasten the process, but we have to wade through those elections first.
Look on the bright side. He may be a gift that keeps on giving.
We'll see. I suspect he will fade away rapidly after the current fourth turning, which is his climate and mood. But there may be others later who have such "gifts" for us, as human nature doesn't shift rapidly, except for those wonderful bursts forward in 2Ts, and sometimes during the embattled 4Ts, like ours maybe (?).
For me, the big questions are whether he can keep the big lie of voter fraud in the 2020 election alive, and whether anyone else can claim the place that first Palin then Trump held with the Republican base. Even in the second impeachment he did not produce evidence supporting the big lie. In throwing his insurrectionists under the bus for a shot at delaying the ceremonial counting of votes for a few hours, he may have put the whole movement in an impossible place. I figure the cops are now taking red violence seriously, and that the insurrection is going to be a one time thing. At the very least, the violent people will have to change tactics in a significant way.
It looks like the various justice departments in New York, Georgia and Washington DC will keep Trump in legal trouble indefinitely, We'll see how it all plays out.
Let's admit it: Trump is a classic iconoclast. Let's also agree that iconoclasts attract followers, in large part, due to their innate intemperance. To be less than subtle about it, pissed-off people are attracted to other pissed-off people, even though they aren't necessarily angry about the same thing. It's the anger!
Trump arrested, convicted and jailed might be a martyr ... or not. We'll have to see just how profoundly he's played his particular audience. I suspect he still has some legs.
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(02-21-2021, 08:43 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: I'm a loyal American who supported Trump who will support Trump again if decides to run again in 2024. You're a loyal Democrat who will be stuck voting for Harris and stuck with a party on the brink of imploding by then. We got a rough and challenging road ahead of us with an old dude who forgets where he's at, who loses his train of thought and sounds like an imbecile who can't answer hard questions or hop on a plane at anytime. I told you that this wasn't the time to elect a weak leader like you did any way. So, I hope you'll be ready to accept the consequences of doing that in or within the next four years depending on how bad things get before then. You fucked up and you and every other dip shit here are going to pay the price for doing it at the wrong time in history. You talk a lot but you don't pay attention to what you say or what you say you believe or the obvious signs associated with the kinds of government that you fear the most and claim that you would never support.
Thanks for making my previous point. Nevermind the degree of his incompetence, Trump is still marketable.
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The reason the Democrats are more susceptible to failure than the Republicans is an obvious one - they have a more discordant base than the Republicans, being a bourgeois Party that must nevertheless pretend to function as a worker's Party.
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(02-22-2021, 11:09 AM)David Horn Wrote: Let's admit it: Trump is a classic iconoclast. Let's also agree that iconoclasts attract followers, in large part, due to their innate intemperance. To be less than subtle about it, pissed-off people are attracted to other pissed-off people, even though they aren't necessarily angry about the same thing. It's the anger!
Trump arrested, convicted and jailed might be a martyr ... or not. We'll have to see just how profoundly he's played his particular audience. I suspect he still has some legs.
I am not so sure it is anger so much as they want a racist president. That seemed possible for a while. For most of the unraveling they were forced to stay undercover, to ve vaguely polite. Suddenly, Trump in the wake of a black president was enabling the KKK, Neo Nazi and other racist organizations to work openly again. If Trump was a reaction to Obama, Black Lives Matter were a reaction to Trump. Trump gave the racists a chance to be out in the open again, which set up the BLM response.
In hindsight, there were lots of catalysts building towards the George Floyd trigger. The racists could have stopped short of creating a trigger, but no. As is, they made systematic racism a crisis issue and crisis issues tend to be decisively solved.
It is not that the red are against democracy and rule of law. They are just against them from applying to minorities.
So, Trump is tapping into America's long history of racism which isn't going away quickly. At the same time the BLM movement has made its point enough that playing the race card is not an automatic win for the Republicans. They have a majority of a minority. They can win primaries, but in most places not general elections.
I anticipate a loud squeaking by the Trump loyalists, but they are not in a position to fight the turnings. The conservative values have always taken a hit in the crisis heart. I don't see things developing differently this time.
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(02-22-2021, 12:17 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: (02-22-2021, 11:09 AM)David Horn Wrote: Let's admit it: Trump is a classic iconoclast. Let's also agree that iconoclasts attract followers, in large part, due to their innate intemperance. To be less than subtle about it, pissed-off people are attracted to other pissed-off people, even though they aren't necessarily angry about the same thing. It's the anger!
Trump arrested, convicted and jailed might be a martyr ... or not. We'll have to see just how profoundly he's played his particular audience. I suspect he still has some legs.
I am not so sure it is anger so much as they want a racist president. That seemed possible for a while. For most of the unraveling they were forced to stay undercover, to be vaguely polite. Suddenly, Trump in the wake of a black president was enabling the KKK, Neo Nazi and other racist organizations to work openly again. If Trump was a reaction to Obama, Black Lives Matter were a reaction to Trump. Trump gave the racists a chance to be out in the open again, which set up the BLM response.
In hindsight, there were lots of catalysts building towards the George Floyd trigger. The racists could have stopped short of creating a trigger, but no. As is, they made systematic racism a crisis issue and crisis issues tend to be decisively solved.
It is not that the red are against democracy and rule of law. They are just against them from applying to minorities.
So, Trump is tapping into America's long history of racism which isn't going away quickly. At the same time the BLM movement has made its point enough that playing the race card is not an automatic win for the Republicans. They have a majority of a minority. They can win primaries, but in most places not general elections.
I anticipate a loud squeaking by the Trump loyalists, but they are not in a position to fight the turnings. The conservative values have always taken a hit in the crisis heart. I don't see things developing differently this time.
I certainly agree that racism is a major source of the anger in many white communities. Knowing that and fixing it are two entirely different issues. Most anti-racism narratives make things worse among the very group most needing convincing. So that's job one: find a narrative that works. I've mentioned Heather McGhee several times recently, because she's been working that problem for several years, and has made some real progress. She has a book and a TED talk that cover a lot of this ground.
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(02-22-2021, 02:51 PM)David Horn Wrote: (02-22-2021, 12:17 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: (02-22-2021, 11:09 AM)David Horn Wrote: Let's admit it: Trump is a classic iconoclast. Let's also agree that iconoclasts attract followers, in large part, due to their innate intemperance. To be less than subtle about it, pissed-off people are attracted to other pissed-off people, even though they aren't necessarily angry about the same thing. It's the anger!
Trump arrested, convicted and jailed might be a martyr ... or not. We'll have to see just how profoundly he's played his particular audience. I suspect he still has some legs.
I am not so sure it is anger so much as they want a racist president. That seemed possible for a while. For most of the unraveling they were forced to stay undercover, to be vaguely polite. Suddenly, Trump in the wake of a black president was enabling the KKK, Neo Nazi and other racist organizations to work openly again. If Trump was a reaction to Obama, Black Lives Matter were a reaction to Trump. Trump gave the racists a chance to be out in the open again, which set up the BLM response.
In hindsight, there were lots of catalysts building towards the George Floyd trigger. The racists could have stopped short of creating a trigger, but no. As is, they made systematic racism a crisis issue and crisis issues tend to be decisively solved.
It is not that the red are against democracy and rule of law. They are just against them from applying to minorities.
So, Trump is tapping into America's long history of racism which isn't going away quickly. At the same time the BLM movement has made its point enough that playing the race card is not an automatic win for the Republicans. They have a majority of a minority. They can win primaries, but in most places not general elections.
I anticipate a loud squeaking by the Trump loyalists, but they are not in a position to fight the turnings. The conservative values have always taken a hit in the crisis heart. I don't see things developing differently this time.
I certainly agree that racism is a major source of the anger in many white communities. Knowing that and fixing it are two entirely different issues. Most anti-racism narratives make things worse among the very group most needing convincing. So that's job one: find a narrative that works. I've mentioned Heather McGhee several times recently, because she's been working that problem for several years, and has made some real progress. She has a book and a TED talk that cover a lot of this ground.
The anti-racism narratives now prevailing- YAAASSSSSS KWEEEEEEN neoliberal identity politics - makes things worse because it serves the class interest of the prodessional-manageeial class within capitalism as well as the minority bourgeoisie. The narrative that works is proletarian revolution.
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(02-22-2021, 03:03 PM)Einzige Wrote: The anti-racism narratives now prevailing- YAAASSSSSS KWEEEEEEN neoliberal identity politics - makes things worse because it serves the class interest of the prodessional-manageeial class within capitalism as well as the minority bourgeoisie. The narrative that works is proletarian revolution.
Show me one case where it has been applied successfully ... just one. Success, by the way, includes happy citizens.
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02-22-2021, 04:49 PM
(This post was last modified: 02-22-2021, 04:50 PM by Eric the Green.)
(02-22-2021, 11:12 AM)David Horn Wrote: (02-21-2021, 08:43 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: I'm a loyal American who supported Trump who will support Trump again if decides to run again in 2024. You're a loyal Democrat who will be stuck voting for Harris and stuck with a party on the brink of imploding by then. We got a rough and challenging road ahead of us with an old dude who forgets where he's at, who loses his train of thought and sounds like an imbecile who can't answer hard questions or hop on a plane at anytime. I told you that this wasn't the time to elect a weak leader like you did any way. So, I hope you'll be ready to accept the consequences of doing that in or within the next four years depending on how bad things get before then. You fucked up and you and every other dip shit here are going to pay the price for doing it at the wrong time in history. You talk a lot but you don't pay attention to what you say or what you say you believe or the obvious signs associated with the kinds of government that you fear the most and claim that you would never support.
Thanks for making my previous point. Nevermind the degree of his incompetence, Trump is still marketable.
That's right. And this mythical Biden figure that Classic describes is marketable as an alternative fact to the same folks. But if the Democrats are stuck with Harris in 2024, Trump will win if he is nominated and legally allowed to run. But I don't think even he or anyone will find it so easy to beat Harris if he runs from a jail cell. Maybe he can, but that's an extra challenge that my system does not account for. I think historically only one socialist candidate has tried that, about 100 years ago, and he wasn't going to win anyway.
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(02-22-2021, 09:05 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: (02-21-2021, 08:43 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: I'm a loyal American who supported Trump who will support Trump again if decides to run again in 2024. You're a loyal Democrat who will be stuck voting for Harris and stuck with a party on the brink of imploding by then. We got a rough and challenging road ahead of us with an old dude who forgets where he's at, who loses his train of thought and sounds like an imbecile who can't answer hard questions or hop on a plane at anytime. I told you that this wasn't the time to elect a weak leader like you did any way. So, I hope you'll be ready to accept the consequences of doing that in or within the next four years depending on how bad things get before then. You f---ed up and you and every other (offensive cat-call) are going to pay the price for doing it at the wrong time in history. You talk a lot but you don't pay attention to what you say or what you say you believe or the obvious signs associated with the kinds of government that you fear the most and claim that you would never support.
I do not deny that you are loyal to America in the sense that you would never serve in an occupying army or in a puppet government by an occupier, and that you would never divulge state secrets to a foreign power or make propaganda broadcasts -- even if you ever got the opportunity.
I hope you are right, but at this point I am not so sanguine about Classic's loyalty. I rather see him as more likely to join the Jan.6th crowd, who must be considered traitors.
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(02-22-2021, 03:54 PM)David Horn Wrote: (02-22-2021, 03:03 PM)Einzige Wrote: The anti-racism narratives now prevailing- YAAASSSSSS KWEEEEEEN neoliberal identity politics - makes things worse because it serves the class interest of the prodessional-manageeial class within capitalism as well as the minority bourgeoisie. The narrative that works is proletarian revolution.
Show me one case where it has been applied successfully ... just one. Success, by the way, includes happy citizens.
[Quote] Empirically, communism is only possible as the act of the dominant peoples “all at once” and simultaneously, which presupposes the universal development of productive forces and the world intercourse bound up with communism. Moreover, the mass of propertyless workers – the utterly precarious position of labour – power on a mass scale cut off from capital or from even a limited satisfaction and, therefore, no longer merely temporarily deprived of work itself as a secure source of life – presupposes the world market through competition. The proletariat can thus only exist world-historically, just as communism, its activity, can only have a “world-historical” existence. World-historical existence of individuals means existence of individuals which is directly linked up with world history.[/quite]
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Discussing communism with Einzige on the let's make fun of trump page. Does that mean Trump is a communist?
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(02-22-2021, 04:52 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: (02-22-2021, 09:05 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: (02-21-2021, 08:43 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: I'm a loyal American who supported Trump who will support Trump again if decides to run again in 2024. You're a loyal Democrat who will be stuck voting for Harris and stuck with a party on the brink of imploding by then. We got a rough and challenging road ahead of us with an old dude who forgets where he's at, who loses his train of thought and sounds like an imbecile who can't answer hard questions or hop on a plane at anytime. I told you that this wasn't the time to elect a weak leader like you did any way. So, I hope you'll be ready to accept the consequences of doing that in or within the next four years depending on how bad things get before then. You f---ed up and you and every other (offensive cat-call) are going to pay the price for doing it at the wrong time in history. You talk a lot but you don't pay attention to what you say or what you say you believe or the obvious signs associated with the kinds of government that you fear the most and claim that you would never support.
I do not deny that you are loyal to America in the sense that you would never serve in an occupying army or in a puppet government by an occupier, and that you would never divulge state secrets to a foreign power or make propaganda broadcasts -- even if you ever got the opportunity.
I hope you are right, but at this point I am not so sanguine about Classic's loyalty. I rather see him as more likely to join the Jan.6th crowd, who must be considered traitors.
He is more dangerous in the context of a civil war, perhaps what Ben Klassen (a founder of the fascist Church of the Creator) described as RaHoWa, or "RAcial HOly WAr" in which white Christians wage war against everyone else who does not submit to extreme subordination. As his business fails he would find opportunity as a harsh enforcer of the "Aryan" struggle.
Maybe he either could not believe that the January 6 insurrection would work or something (family members?) talked him out of attending it.
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated Communist but instead the people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists -- Hannah Arendt.
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02-23-2021, 07:19 AM
(This post was last modified: 02-23-2021, 08:42 AM by Bob Butler 54.)
(02-22-2021, 09:06 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: Discussing communism with Einzige on the let's make fun of trump page. Does that mean Trump is a communist?
Communism is theoretically for the proletariat, in practice it is for the party elite. Trump is for Trump. Yes, Trump was an autocrat. He governed for himself, which does not separate himself from a Stalin, Mao or Putin. If that doesn't make Trump a communist, it illustrates the problem with communism.
But the communists wouldn't count Trump as one of them. He would give communism a bad name. 
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(02-22-2021, 09:06 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: Discussing communism with Einzige on the let's make fun of trump page. Does that mean Trump is a communist?
Of course it does, or maybe it's the opposite and Trump imperils the emergence of Marxism. Then again, it might be that Trump is part of the great anti-Marxist cabal pretending to fight one another to keep Marxism at bay. Your choice.
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(02-23-2021, 03:28 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: (02-22-2021, 04:52 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: (02-22-2021, 09:05 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: (02-21-2021, 08:43 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: I'm a loyal American who supported Trump who will support Trump again if decides to run again in 2024. You're a loyal Democrat who will be stuck voting for Harris and stuck with a party on the brink of imploding by then. We got a rough and challenging road ahead of us with an old dude who forgets where he's at, who loses his train of thought and sounds like an imbecile who can't answer hard questions or hop on a plane at anytime. I told you that this wasn't the time to elect a weak leader like you did any way. So, I hope you'll be ready to accept the consequences of doing that in or within the next four years depending on how bad things get before then. You f---ed up and you and every other (offensive cat-call) are going to pay the price for doing it at the wrong time in history. You talk a lot but you don't pay attention to what you say or what you say you believe or the obvious signs associated with the kinds of government that you fear the most and claim that you would never support.
I do not deny that you are loyal to America in the sense that you would never serve in an occupying army or in a puppet government by an occupier, and that you would never divulge state secrets to a foreign power or make propaganda broadcasts -- even if you ever got the opportunity.
I hope you are right, but at this point I am not so sanguine about Classic's loyalty. I rather see him as more likely to join the Jan.6th crowd, who must be considered traitors.
He is more dangerous in the context of a civil war, perhaps what Ben Klassen (a founder of the fascist Church of the Creator) described as RaHoWa, or "RAcial HOly WAr" in which white Christians wage war against everyone else who does not submit to extreme subordination. As his business fails he would find opportunity as a harsh enforcer of the "Aryan" struggle.
Maybe he either could not believe that the January 6 insurrection would work or something (family members?) talked him out of attending it.
I suspect that Classic is more talk than action.
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(02-23-2021, 11:34 AM)David Horn Wrote: (02-23-2021, 03:28 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: (02-22-2021, 04:52 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: (02-22-2021, 09:05 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: (02-21-2021, 08:43 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: I'm a loyal American who supported Trump who will support Trump again if decides to run again in 2024. You're a loyal Democrat who will be stuck voting for Harris and stuck with a party on the brink of imploding by then. We got a rough and challenging road ahead of us with an old dude who forgets where he's at, who loses his train of thought and sounds like an imbecile who can't answer hard questions or hop on a plane at anytime. I told you that this wasn't the time to elect a weak leader like you did any way. So, I hope you'll be ready to accept the consequences of doing that in or within the next four years depending on how bad things get before then. You f---ed up and you and every other (offensive cat-call) are going to pay the price for doing it at the wrong time in history. You talk a lot but you don't pay attention to what you say or what you say you believe or the obvious signs associated with the kinds of government that you fear the most and claim that you would never support.
I do not deny that you are loyal to America in the sense that you would never serve in an occupying army or in a puppet government by an occupier, and that you would never divulge state secrets to a foreign power or make propaganda broadcasts -- even if you ever got the opportunity.
I hope you are right, but at this point I am not so sanguine about Classic's loyalty. I rather see him as more likely to join the Jan.6th crowd, who must be considered traitors.
He is more dangerous in the context of a civil war, perhaps what Ben Klassen (a founder of the fascist Church of the Creator) described as RaHoWa, or "RAcial HOly WAr" in which white Christians wage war against everyone else who does not submit to extreme subordination. As his business fails he would find opportunity as a harsh enforcer of the "Aryan" struggle.
Maybe he either could not believe that the January 6 insurrection would work or something (family members?) talked him out of attending it.
I suspect that Classic is more talk than action.
People more talk than action, under the worst circumstances, can talk people into horrible things. I see him full of resentment, and with a shaky hold upon inhibitions.
The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated Communist but instead the people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists -- Hannah Arendt.
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(02-23-2021, 11:34 AM)David Horn Wrote: I suspect that Classic is more talk than action.
Suspect?
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(02-23-2021, 12:12 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: (02-23-2021, 11:34 AM)David Horn Wrote: I suspect that Classic is more talk than action.
Suspect?
But---- he is well-armed. *I* suspect that people who are well-armed are more liable to use their weapons.
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