If The Russians Engineered a Trump Victory

[Odin]

(03-24-2017, 01:14 PM)Kinser79 Wrote:

(03-24-2017, 05:47 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: First, it is illegal for someone not a citizen to make campaign contributions to any candidate for President or any House or Senate race. At a Democratic campaign headquarters we had to tell non-citizens that they could not make contributions to political campaigns. I could not accept the cash and write a check, as that would be money-laundering.

This was for contributions of $10 or so from recent immigrants who saw themselves at risk from Donald Trump.

Second, we may have a question of 'foreign agent' status. People intent on promoting tourism to and culture of a foreign country find  it relatively easy to register as foreign agents.

Yes well there is a way around that..if your surname is Clinton.  You take money from China and Saudi Arabia and whatnot and and put it through the Clinton Foundation, then the Clinton foundation cuts a check to the campaign.  Fund Slushing 101 stuff really.

Your cult brainwashing is showing again, having to bring everything back to Emmanuel Goldstein Hillary Clinton for your 2-minute hate.

[Odin]

(03-24-2017, 07:39 PM)Kinser79 Wrote:    I know you rarely leave your house and you probably only watch fake news sources like MSDNC and Clinton News Network so I'll give you a pass on not knowing about how Donald Trump is the most pro-minority and pro-queer President ever.  He's divided the country into only two camps, Authoritarian Cry-babies (Dim-ocrats and their hangers on) and Americans (everyone else).

I still have a great deal of respect for Enver.  And Stalin too.  The problem is their ideology is obsolete in an information age.

I'm not particularly fond of Pope Francis.  Seriously the man is a Communist in a Cassock.  He is also calling for the islamification of Europe.  Good thing he's celibate, he doesn't have to worry about the world his children will inherit.

Now I can't tell if you are just trolling us now, or have become completely deranged.

[Kinser79]

(03-25-2017, 02:38 PM)Odin Wrote:

(03-24-2017, 01:14 PM)Kinser79 Wrote:

(03-24-2017, 05:47 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: First, it is illegal for someone not a citizen to make campaign contributions to any candidate for President or any House or Senate race. At a Democratic campaign headquarters we had to tell non-citizens that they could not make contributions to political campaigns. I could not accept the cash and write a check, as that would be money-laundering.

This was for contributions of $10 or so from recent immigrants who saw themselves at risk from Donald Trump.

Second, we may have a question of 'foreign agent' status. People intent on promoting tourism to and culture of a foreign country find  it relatively easy to register as foreign agents.

Yes well there is a way around that..if your surname is Clinton.  You take money from China and Saudi Arabia and whatnot and and put it through the Clinton Foundation, then the Clinton foundation cuts a check to the campaign.  Fund Slushing 101 stuff really.

Your cult brainwashing is showing again, having to bring everything back to Emmanuel Goldstein Hillary Clinton for your 2-minute hate.

I don't need a tin foil hat to see a slush fund when one comes right up and says "Hi, I'm a Slush Fund". Even my mother figured out the Clinton foundation was a slush fund and she's a partisan Dim-ocrat.

(03-25-2017, 02:41 PM)Odin Wrote:

(03-24-2017, 07:39 PM)Kinser79 Wrote:    I know you rarely leave your house and you probably only watch fake news sources like MSDNC and Clinton News Network so I'll give you a pass on not knowing about how Donald Trump is the most pro-minority and pro-queer President ever.  He's divided the country into only two camps, Authoritarian Cry-babies (Dim-ocrats and their hangers on) and Americans (everyone else).

I still have a great deal of respect for Enver.  And Stalin too.  The problem is their ideology is obsolete in an information age.

I'm not particularly fond of Pope Francis.  Seriously the man is a Communist in a Cassock.  He is also calling for the islamification of Europe.  Good thing he's celibate, he doesn't have to worry about the world his children will inherit.

Now I can't tell if you are just trolling us now, or have become completely deranged.

That is rich, calling me deranged when you're agreeing with Alphabet Soup more and more Odin. Careful there may be a Russian Spy in your closet.

Take my posts as you please.

[pbrower2a]

(03-24-2017, 07:39 PM)Kinser79 Wrote: I still have a great deal of respect for Enver.  And Stalin too.  The problem is their ideology is obsolete in an information age.

I'm not particularly fond of Pope Francis.  Seriously the man is a Communist in a Cassock.  He is also calling for the islamification of Europe.  Good thing he's celibate, he doesn't have to worry about the world his children will inherit.

I never thought murder, torture, and tyranny in vogue. Stalin and Hoxha can roast in Hell.

We can have an economy that operates with conscience, something that 'Daddy' Trump considers impractical. A conscience isn't convenient, but it can certainly make the world much more pleasant.

[Kinser79]

(03-25-2017, 04:54 PM)pbrower2a Wrote:

(03-24-2017, 07:39 PM)Kinser79 Wrote: I still have a great deal of respect for Enver.  And Stalin too.  The problem is their ideology is obsolete in an information age.

I'm not particularly fond of Pope Francis.  Seriously the man is a Communist in a Cassock.  He is also calling for the islamification of Europe.  Good thing he's celibate, he doesn't have to worry about the world his children will inherit.

I never thought murder, torture, and tyranny in vogue. Stalin and Hoxha can roast in Hell.

We can have an economy that operates with conscience, something that 'Daddy' Trump considers impractical. A conscience isn't convenient, but it can certainly make the world much more pleasant.

You'll have to define "conscience" sunshine.  Myself my conscience dictates that I spend as little of my own money flushing it down the toilet as possible.  Give aways to the lazy and the stupid is as much a waste of money as give aways as big business.

[pbrower2a]

Conscience implies doing or refusing to do something out of a concern for Right and Wrong under conditions that make such a difficult and even self-destructive circumstance. It is resistance to a temptation to hurt others. It is not an act of conscience to brush your teeth, as doing so is good for dental health. It is not simply avoiding traffic violations where one knows that the traffic cop is likely there.

It could be doing a job that you hate instead of quitting it because you have bills to pay, and you have no desire to stiff a creditor even if you could get away with it. It could be refusing to take advantage of a sexual opportunity that might give you bliss and pain and shame to an unwilling partner. It could mean dropping out of college to work to pay for medical treatments for a sibling . It could mean canceling a dream vacation so that you can take care of a parent in medical distress. It is the superego at its best.

Conscience at its best is heroism. Conscience at its greatest lack is sociopathy or psychopathy. Where conscience prevails, life is generally good. Where it is rare, the greatest evil is possible.

[Bob Butler 54]

(03-25-2017, 07:16 PM)Kinser79 Wrote: You'll have to define "conscience" sunshine.  Myself my conscience dictates that I spend as little of my own money flushing it down the toilet as possible.  Give aways to the lazy and the stupid is as much a waste of money as give aways as big business.

Why should I be surprised at having to explain what a conscience is to a Trump fan?

Let's start with the dictionary.

Apple Oxford Wrote:conscience |ˈkän(t)SHəns|
noun

an inner feeling or voice viewed as acting as a guide to the rightness or wrongness of one's behavior: he had a guilty conscience about his desires | Ben was suffering a pang of conscience.

PHRASES
in (good) conscience
by any reasonable standard; by all that is fair: they have in conscience done all they could.

on one's conscience
weighing heavily and guiltily on one's mind: an act of providence had prevented him from having a death on his conscience.

It's about having a sense of right and wrong, and feeling obligated to do what is right.  For example...

If one knows that global warming will severely impact the planet, but that the worst of it won't hit until after one is dead, and letting the massive extinctions, migrations and other problems happen would save some money on one's tax bill, one lacking conscience would let the planet go kaput.

If one can pay for an existing health plan, but another plan would reduce one's own expenses while leaving many with no access to health care, putting their health at great risk, one lacking a conscience would care only about himself.

For a lot of folk with blue world views, a prime distinction between red and blue is that red folk lack a conscience.  The blue is a crisis based perspective.  One pulls together as a strong community to provide for common needs in troubled times.  One is ready to perceive problems and put money, effort and votes into seeing the problems solved.  By contrast, it is easy to perceive the red as dismissing, ignoring or procrastinating problem solving in order to save money at a personal and short term level, leaving the country to fester and rot.

And it is a values based thing, not at all easy to change, unless, perhaps, the problem becomes large, threatening and immediate enough that it could significantly effect the people lacking a conscience.  If a person lacks a conscience, if he cannot tell good from evil, or if he doesn't care about the difference between good and evil, there isn't much one can do about it.

Now it is easy to go vile stereotype with this.  To get the point across, I already have in this note.  One can say all Republicans lack a conscience.  All conservatives are Evil with a big letter 'E'.  You have to explain to some people what a conscience is as they lack them entirely.  Eric has advocated for the 'Republicans are Evil and must be utterly removed from power' perspective all along. While many people seem completely unable to comprehend any perspective but their own, at base the 'Republicans are Evil' meme should not be hard to understand. One should be able to see how people think that way.

I try not to go as far as 'Republicans are Evil'.  In rural areas, problems are not so severe. Most to everyone is able to get around them without a ponderous, corrupt, inefficient government taking one's money and mandating big changes in how things have always been successfully done in the past. All successful and common world views came into being as they fit some environment well in the past, and are still perceived of by some as working well. If one is willing to make an effort, it really isn't all that difficult to step out temporarily from one's own values lock. It does help, though, if one's own world view assumes that everyone's world view has historical reasons for coming about. Values have in the view of their holders lots of practical evidence that it they are still working, and can be backed up by logic, evidence and woo. (Of course, the logic is quite often convoluted doublethink, the evidence is often badly slanted and cherry picked to support one's own view, the holy and magnificent woo seems like stupid garbage to the other guys, etc...)

But I still see a lot of the unravelling culture's 'the government issn't the solution, it is the problem' meme as at core being selfish blindness.

[Kinser79]

@PBR and Bob

Have neither of you ever considered that it is my conscience speaking when it says to not waste money on those who aren't part of my tribe? Or is conscience only for those who hypocritically spout off about their love for all of humanity.

Let me lay out what my conscience dictates on several issues brought up:

1. Health care insurance: People should buy their own. It should not be provided by their employer as that makes the older and sicker among us slaves to their employer, or worse makes them unemployable. But it should be noted that insurance and access are two different problems.

2. Climate Change is real--the climate has been changing for some 4.5 billion years or so. What remains to be determines is if/when said climate change is going to cause real impacts. Quite frankly the science on this is still out. As for the predictions made over the years.

Image explains it all

All of those are actual predictions made at the times indicated in the cartoon. Quite frankly I don't take any prediction about the weather seriously that goes more than three days out--there are just too many variables.

3. As for my request for a definition, it was for the sake of clarity--boomers in general love to not use dictionary definitions of words. Myself, I would say that everyone has a conscience, excluding perhaps psychopaths and sociopaths--but I'm no psychologist so I could be completely wrong here.

I'd also go far as to say that some view their conscious as expanding to all of humanity--those with pathological altruism. For the rest of us our compassion only goes out so far--family, friends/tribe, everyone else. This means that if something stands in the way of family or Friends/tribe by everyone else; well everyone else's prerogatives can get screwed.

[Galen]

(03-24-2017, 07:39 PM)Kinser79 Wrote: I'm not particularly fond of Pope Francis.  Seriously the man is a Communist in a Cassock.  He is also calling for the islamification of Europe.  Good thing he's celibate, he doesn't have to worry about the world his children will inherit.

Officially he is celibate but the odds are pretty good he is a homo or molesting a kid given the current state of the Catholic Church.

Before you whine about my reply you might want to actually read about the current state of the Church.  If you read the link you might find that homosexual priests are actually fairly common.

As for Pope Francis being a Communist everything I have ever heard the man say comes right of of Liberation Theology which is little more than Marxism in Christian drag.

There are very few of God's self-appointed representatives that I have a good opinion of and the current pope is not one of them.

[pbrower2a]

(03-28-2017, 03:22 PM)Galen Wrote:

(03-24-2017, 07:39 PM)Kinser79 Wrote: I'm not particularly fond of Pope Francis.  Seriously the man is a Communist in a Cassock.  He is also calling for the islamification of Europe.  Good thing he's celibate, he doesn't have to worry about the world his children will inherit.

Officially he is celibate but the odds are pretty good he is a homo or molesting a kid given the current state of the Catholic Church.

Before you whine about my reply you might want to actually read about the current state of the Church.  If you read the link you might find that homosexual priests are actually fairly common.

I am well aware of the child sexual abuse scandals within the Roman Catholic Church. I certainly hope that the RCC goes to all just means to oust any priest who violates his trust (which includes the vow of celibacy). I also recognize that many priests have homosexual tendencies. But accusing any clergyman in the RCC is still potential slander or libel. Having a homosexual tendency is not a bar to being a priest. Sex of any kind involving a priest is of course a violation of the vow of sexuality.

Quote:As for Pope Francis being a Communist everything I have ever heard the man say comes right of of Liberation Theology which is little more than Marxism in Christian drag.

I suggest that you reread the Sermon on the Mount and ask yourself whether it exults material gain and indulgence for the economic elites of Jesus' time. We can always ask ourselves whether the celebration of greed, class privilege, and crass hedonism is Christian.

Of course whether wealth today creates more human happiness or denies it to the poor is not a question for Jesus. Capitalism can create prosperity for non-capitalists, so it isn't as vile as the economic reality of ancient Judea in Jesus' time, when anyone rich was either a crook or simply an inheritor of class privilege. Liquidating a business and dispensing the proceeds of the business on behalf of the poor practically ensures that one's employees will themselves  become poor.

Your idol Ayn Rand turns the economic part of Jesus' teachings upside down.

Quote:There are very few of God's self-appointed representatives that I have a good opinion of and the current pope is not one of them.

So which greedy televangelists do you most admire?

[Bob Butler 54]

(03-28-2017, 02:12 AM)Kinser79 Wrote: 3.  As for my request for a definition, it was for the sake of clarity--boomers in general love to not use dictionary definitions of words.  Myself, I would say that everyone has a conscience, excluding perhaps psychopaths and sociopaths--but I'm no psychologist so I could be completely wrong here.

I'd also go far as to say that some view their conscious as expanding to all of humanity--those with pathological altruism.  For the rest of us our compassion only goes out so far--family, friends/tribe, everyone else.  This means that if something stands in the way of family or Friends/tribe by everyone else; well everyone else's prerogatives can get screwed.

Well, you made yourself clear enough.  

Not going to refight the global warming question here.

Some might note that the Jews weren't part of the Nazi tribe.  Your style of limited conscience might not be considered quite proper by some.  Some say members of a culture have certain rights that would include the UDHR Article 25 rights of food, shelter and health care.  This might be difficult for a person who lacks a conscience to understand, but many feel this way.

Others might argue that those who don't feel they belong in the same tribe as Americans aren't American.

But I think you are correct genetically.  It is easy to disregard conscience or morality with regard to people from another tribe.  Definitely, if one feels no moral responsibility for anyone but one's self or immediate kin, that could well qualify as a psychopathic or sociopathic level problem.  Another example might be the druggie who will kill for his next fix.  Some just do not care for their fellow men.  Many with a blue perspective will feel that many with a red perspective have that problem.

[Eric the Green]

(03-28-2017, 02:12 AM)Kinser79 Wrote: @PBR and Bob

Have neither of you ever considered that it is my conscience speaking when it says to not waste money on those who aren't part of my tribe? Or is conscience only for those who hypocritically spout off about their love for all of humanity.

Let me lay out what my conscience dictates on several issues brought up:

1. Health care insurance: People should buy their own. It should not be provided by their employer as that makes the older and sicker among us slaves to their employer, or worse makes them unemployable. But it should be noted that insurance and access are two different problems.

Insurance and access are not two different problems. If you can't afford it, you don't have access. It takes a bit of altruism to accept that health care is a right for everyone. Even Daddy Drump said often that "no-one would die on the street in his administration." He may not have meant it, but at least he had the concept. Everyone has the right. But it does have to be paid for, because doctors don't work for free, etc. Social insurance is what more advanced countries than the United States rely on. Classical and neo-liberals have forsaken this concept in preference for individual liberty. But individual existence is interdependent with others, and one is not free if one is too poor to afford the necessities of life, which includes health care. Compassion and conscience dictates support for universal health care coverage.

Quote:2. Climate Change is real--the climate has been changing for some 4.5 billion years or so. What remains to be determines is if/when said climate change is going to cause real impacts. Quite frankly the science on this is still out. As for the predictions made over the years.

Image explains it all

The science IS settled, despite the mistakes that some proponents have made in what they said. The models have predicted global warming, and it's happening, pretty much as predicted. Case closed. Exactly how severe it gets, still depends on humans. There is no doubt that humans are causing the current warming of the climate in the industrial age, and that burning fossil fuels is the primary factor. Just saying "the climate is always changing" is simply denying climate change. The question for conscience is, which is more important: protecting an ideological belief and/or the fortunes of a few fossil fuel CEOs, or protecting the sustainability of life on Earth? I know it's a hard choice for folks like kinser and galen to make, but it isn't for folks like me at all.

Quote:3. As for my request for a definition, it was for the sake of clarity--boomers in general love to not use dictionary definitions of words. Myself, I would say that everyone has a conscience, excluding perhaps psychopaths and sociopaths--but I'm no psychologist so I could be completely wrong here.

The dictionary is a superficial source for insight into psychology and the deeper truths of life.

Quote:I'd also go far as to say that some view their conscious as expanding to all of humanity--those with pathological altruism. For the rest of us our compassion only goes out so far--family, friends/tribe, everyone else. This means that if something stands in the way of family or Friends/tribe by everyone else; well everyone else's prerogatives can get screwed.

My conscious(ness) and my conscience, extends to all humanity. Because it is me, and I am It, and more. It often requires me to look to a deeper perspective regarding some people, beyond their actions and attitudes expressed, to the deeper core-- in which everyone connects to Spirit, and all people have value, and core values. I do see suffering on the part of some people, even those I dislike, and I have some compassion for them. Yet, it may only be some situations, including (but not limited to) people I know, that arouse me to take action to help in some way.

[Ragnarök_62]

(03-28-2017, 06:29 PM)X_4AD_84 Wrote: <snip>

"Curse them papists! They are all anti American Commies" blah, blah .....

Geeze, I can't believe you wrote that...  You know, you're so right on that remark.  The fundies here think that the Catholic Church is full of pervs, apostates, and worship idols. This is nuttery on the highest scale since my Scottish grandmother was a Catholic and she was the most uptight grandparent I had... except for booze and ciggies.

*I suppose fundies would look on her as a advocate for doing assorted substances.

*She was the most prudish of my grandparents wrt other issues. The best comparison I can have is here husband, my paternal grandfather, a perfect example of an Interbellum cusper.  Now, he, a pretty large Swede was a true mess. He was a womanizer, pool hustler, and heavy drinker and smoker. Now... that's what Rags considers class, man. He was the provider of clandestine beer samples and cuss word expert.   There's nothing like a bad ass grandfather for a Prophet/Nomad cuspers / plain Nomads.  Note , early wave Millies, if you manage to get the next any Nomad generation grandkids, teach them the naughty side of life and you'll earn your Nomad grandkids' respect for a lifetime!

[Eric the Green]

(03-29-2017, 12:04 AM)Ragnarök_62 Wrote:

(03-28-2017, 06:29 PM)X_4AD_84 Wrote: <snip>

"Curse them papists! They are all anti American Commies" blah, blah .....

Geeze, I can't believe you wrote that...  You know, you're so right on that remark.  The fundies here think that the Catholic Church is full of pervs, apostates, and worship idols. This is nuttery on the highest scale since my Scottish grandmother was a Catholic and she was the most uptight grandparent I had... except for booze and ciggies.

*I suppose fundies would look on her as a advocate for doing assorted substances.

*She was the most prudish of my grandparents wrt other issues. The best comparison I can have is here husband, my paternal grandfather, a perfect example of an Interbellum cusper.  Now, he, a pretty large Swede was a true mess. He was a womanizer, pool hustler, and heavy drinker and smoker. Now... that's what Rags considers class, man. He was the provider of clandestine beer samples and cuss word expert.   There's nothing like a bad ass grandfather for a Prophet/Nomad cuspers / plain Nomads.  Note , early wave Millies, if you manage to get the next any Nomad generation grandkids, teach them the naughty side of life and you'll earn your Nomad grandkids' respect for a lifetime!

Actually, there are credible reports that the cardinals and priests over there in Rome town like to live it up, perhaps in disguise, at the local bars and clubs, with any available bimbo or queen; ya know, they just gotta party, make up for all that celibate lost time. And being gay is a natural for an occupation in which you are not allowed to be married; ya know! It's true!

http://www.vanityfair.com/culture/2013/1...ch-vatican

[pbrower2a]

(03-28-2017, 02:12 AM)Kinser79 Wrote: @PBR and Bob

Have neither of you ever considered that it is my conscience speaking when it says to not waste money on those who aren't part of my tribe?  Or is conscience only for those who hypocritically spout off about their love for all of humanity.

Let me lay out what my conscience dictates on several issues brought up:

1.  Health care insurance:  People should buy their own.  It should not be provided by their employer as that makes the older and sicker among us slaves to their employer, or worse makes them unemployable.  But it should be noted that insurance and access are two different problems.

"Medicare for all" would solve most problems. The insurance industry did not want the elderly as customers; most elderly were unable to buy private medical insurance.  People end up paying all their lives for Medicate in case they get old enough to need it. The alternative might be that the offspring of the elderly would be compelled to buy actuarially-sound medical coverage which would be astronomical in cost. For most people the last years of their lives are the most costly in overall medical costs, often taking more than the rest of one's life. Medical costs (especially nursing home costs that Medicare does not pay for) have made me join the American poor.

Quote:2.  Climate Change is real--the climate has been changing for some 4.5 billion years or so.  What remains to be determines is if/when said climate change is going to cause real impacts.  Quite frankly the science on this is still out.  As for the predictions made over the years.

All of those are actual predictions made at the times indicated in the cartoon.  Quite frankly I don't take any prediction about the weather seriously that goes more than three days out--there are just too many variables.

I'll raise you.  I can go back 540 million years into the past (which is more than eight times as long ago as the extinction of non-avian dinosaurs) forward from such antiquity with allowance for plate tectonics. 

[url=https://wattsupwiththat.files.wordpress.com/2015/02/failed-climate-predictions.jpg][/url]



...and it is possible to have a video that reverses the process:





There is a time in which almost all of Africa, South America, Spain, and Arabia are glaciated -- but Greenland and parts of Antarctica are on the equator and tropical.

But more relevant to the issue of global warming... food is the ultimate reality in economics. If you are hungry, then just about every other store of wealth becomes irrelevant. The agricultural productivity of the world is finely tuned to the climatic patterns and topography that we have. A hot-summer Mediterranean climate in California is fine because the US government can build reservoirs top detain mountain rains and snow-melt in deep, narrow canyons for release in hot summers. A hot-summer Mediterranean climate in Michigan would be a disaster because Michigan lacks high mountains and deep, narrow canyons for storing water to be released in hot summers. Of course, inundation due to rising sea levels of some of the world's most densely-populated areas full of peasant farmers, like Bangladesh, would create great dislocations -- and possibly mass death on a scale not known  with respect to the human population comparable to the Mongol conquests, the Black Death, the Atlantic slave trade, the Holodomor, and the Holocaust. Man can adjust well enough to slow changes -- but not something so swift as losing so much prime farmland in lower-elevation zones in a few decades.

Quote:Quite frankly I don't take any prediction about the weather seriously that goes more than three days out--there are just too many variables.

In fact, weather forecasting has become much more reliable over the short term. What weather forecasters do not get now is
(1) the speed  of the approach of weather fronts which typically separate 'warmer' and 'cooler' weather.  They can predict that on the west side of a cold front that temperatures will be around 50F and that on the east side they will be around 75F, but they might not be able to predict when the front passes St. Louis and Indianapolis five days ahead -- 2PM or 6 PM? or

(2) where weather events will be most severe.  They can't predict that a tornado will strike exactly where until the tornado is in the final stages of formation.

The National Weather Service gave up on fifteen-day forecasts because their programs tended to go to 'reversion to the mean', which is no better than mere guesswork.

Have fun with the videos; it's remarkable that at one time the land upon which Richmond, Virginia now sits was practically at the South Pole. You will see ice ages and ice-free times.

Quote:3.  As for my request for a definition, it was for the sake of clarity--boomers in general love to not use dictionary definitions of words.  Myself, I would say that everyone has a conscience, excluding perhaps psychopaths and sociopaths--but I'm no psychologist so I could be completely wrong here.

Just open a dictionary if that is all that you want. Ask a Boomer, and expect a sermon.

Quote:I'd also go far as to say that some view their conscious (sic!) as expanding to all of humanity--those with pathological altruism.  For the rest of us our compassion only goes out so far--family, friends/tribe, everyone else.  This means that if something stands in the way of family or Friends/tribe by everyone else; well everyone else's prerogatives can get screwed.

Conscience and consciousness are two very different entities. Conscience implies awareness of Right and Wrong and a desire to choose what is Right. I might have a different view on economic propriety from what a brutal slave-master has or what Pol Pot believed in. Some people thought it right to burn witches and heretics at the stake; I would consider such criminal! Consciousness implies knowledge. A rapist may be fully conscious of a victim whom he can get away with raping and of the illegality of rape; his lack of conscience makes the rape possible. We do good or at least try to avoid doing harm lest we be horrible people. Getting away with horrible behavior is no virtue.

Tribalism is for people at a low level of ethical development.

[Ragnarök_62]

(03-29-2017, 12:31 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: Actually, there are credible reports that the cardinals and priests over there in Rome town like to live it up, perhaps in disguise, at the local bars and clubs, with any available bimbo or queen; ya know, they just gotta party, make up for all that celibate lost time. And being gay is a natural for an occupation in which you are not allowed to be married; ya know! It's true!

http://www.vanityfair.com/culture/2013/1...ch-vatican

Oh, yeah! I just wallow in the hypocrisy of organized religion of all sorts. Lesse, we have the link you posted along with assorted Oklahoma politicians who are Bible thumpers getting caught engaging in sex with child prostitutes. Yes, that's true as well. Of course, I'd prefer assorted religious flakes would just butt out of my life, man. You see, I enjoy assorted "sins".  Mind altering chemicals, gambling, raging against the machine, so to speak, and overall rebelliousness are my style! So yeah, my maternal grandmother was pretty much a prude on [these thing], but not these [other things] is not amenable to logic. I bet she was happy that she passed before I entered my really rebellious teen years.

The "gay" issue.  This is also dumb. Homosexuality has been noted for a long time.  The way I see it, is that homosexuality is not a "lifestyle choice", but is predetermined by some interaction between genetics and environment. IE. folks who are homosexual have no choice in the matter. That means any entity that sees things otherwise is hopelessly naive.

[pbrower2a]

(03-29-2017, 01:13 AM)Ragnarök_62 Wrote:

(03-29-2017, 12:31 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: Actually, there are credible reports that the cardinals and priests over there in Rome town like to live it up, perhaps in disguise, at the local bars and clubs, with any available bimbo or queen; ya know, they just gotta party, make up for all that celibate lost time. And being gay is a natural for an occupation in which you are not allowed to be married; ya know! It's true!

http://www.vanityfair.com/culture/2013/1...ch-vatican

Oh, yeah! I just wallow in the hypocrisy of organized religion of all sorts. Lesse, we have the link you posted along with assorted Oklahoma politicians who are Bible thumpers getting caught engaging in sex with child prostitutes. Yes, that's true as well. Of course, I'd prefer assorted religious flakes would just butt out of my life, man. You see, I enjoy assorted "sins".  Mind altering chemicals, gambling, raging against the machine, so to speak, and overall rebelliousness are my style! So yeah, my maternal grandmother was pretty much a prude on [these thing], but not these [other things] is not amenable to logic. I bet she was happy that she passed before I entered my really rebellious teen years.

The only mind-altering substance for which I have any use is alcohol, and not much at a time -- enough to drown my anxiety. Of course my metabolism isn't what it used to be, so I don't hold liquor well. Gambling is a rip-off, and I don't enjoy parting with money. If I am to give up something, it had better be for something good.

Quote:The "gay" issue.  This is also dumb. Homosexuality has been noted for a long time.  The way I see it, is that homosexuality is not a "lifestyle choice", but is predetermined by some interaction between genetics and environment. IE. folks who are homosexual have no choice in the matter. That means any entity that sees things otherwise is hopelessly naive.

I do not understand homosexuality. I suppose that I would have to be a homosexual to understand it. But I see myself as a moral person, and I recognize happiness as a virtue. If the only love that some men can experience is with other men or that the only love that some women can enjoy is with fellow women, then homosexuality is no vice.  It's only when one messes with children (a destructive, exploitative act) that homosexuality becomes inexcusable -- not that such is so with heterosexuality.

Rationality isn't enough; people could be very rational and systematic in condemning witches, aristocrats, kulaks, or Jews to mass death. Much of what I love -- art, music, and nature -- depends upon some measure of irrationality. Love isn't very rational, either.

[Kinser79]

(03-28-2017, 11:27 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(03-28-2017, 02:12 AM)Kinser79 Wrote: 3.  As for my request for a definition, it was for the sake of clarity--boomers in general love to not use dictionary definitions of words.  Myself, I would say that everyone has a conscience, excluding perhaps psychopaths and sociopaths--but I'm no psychologist so I could be completely wrong here.

I'd also go far as to say that some view their conscious as expanding to all of humanity--those with pathological altruism.  For the rest of us our compassion only goes out so far--family, friends/tribe, everyone else.  This means that if something stands in the way of family or Friends/tribe by everyone else; well everyone else's prerogatives can get screwed.

Well, you made yourself clear enough.  

Not going to refight the global warming question here.

Some might note that the Jews weren't part of the Nazi tribe.  Your style of limited conscience might not be considered quite proper by some.  Some say members of a culture have certain rights that would include the UDHR Article 25 rights of food, shelter and health care.  This might be difficult for a person who lacks a conscience to understand, but many feel this way.

Others might argue that those who don't feel they belong in the same tribe as Americans aren't American.

But I think you are correct genetically.  It is easy to disregard conscience or morality with regard to people from another tribe.  Definitely, if one feels no moral responsibility for anyone but one's self or immediate kin, that could well qualify as a psychopathic or sociopathic level problem.  Another example might be the druggie who will kill for his next fix.  Some just do not care for their fellow men.  Many with a blue perspective will feel that many with a red perspective have that problem.

I'm well aware of the opinions that the Nazis held for Jews.  My neighbor still has here IBM tracking number tattooed onto her forearm.

The UN can declare whatever it likes to be rights--let them enforce that though.  While I would agree that food, shelter and health care are human needs, I would not classify them as rights in so far as the provision of those needs needs to be conducted economically.  A man who steals a loaf of bread is a thief as is the man who refuses to pay his doctor or squats on someone else's property.

I would say that a man who refuses to pay his doctor and the doctor treats him anyway without writting the same off as charity care violates the Doctor's Right 4 under the UDHR.

"No one shall be held in slavery or servitude; slavery and the slave trade shall be prohibited in all their forms."

And in the case of the bread thief and the squatter they are violating someone's rights under article 17 of the UDHR:

"(1) Everyone has the right to own property alone as well as in association with others.

(2) No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his property."

I can use legal documents to argue my points too Bob.

As to non-Americans or those who feel they are not Americans.  I hold the view of Theodore Roosevelt.  I have no time for hypenated Americans.

T.R. Wrote:What is true of creed is no less true of nationality. There is no room in this country for hyphenated Americanism. When I refer to hyphenated Americans, I do not refer to naturalized Americans. Some of the very best Americans I have ever known were naturalized Americans, Americans born abroad. But a hyphenated American is not an American at all. This is just as true of the man who puts “native” before the hyphen as of the man who puts German or Irish or English or French before the hyphen. Americanism is a matter of the spirit and of the soul. Our allegiance must be purely to the United States. We must unsparingly condemn any man who holds any other allegiance. But if he is heartily and singly loyal to this Republic, then no matter where he was born, he is just as good an American as any one else.

The one absolutely certain way of bringing this nation to ruin, of preventing all possibility of its continuing to be a nation at all, would be to permit it to become a tangle of squabbling nationalities, an intricate knot of German-Americans, Irish-Americans, English-Americans, French-Americans, Scandinavian-Americans or Italian-Americans, each preserving its separate nationality, each at heart feeling more sympathy with Europeans of that nationality, than with the other citizens of the American Republic. The men who do not become Americans and nothing else are hyphenated Americans; and there ought to be no room for them in this country. The man who calls himself an American citizen and who yet shows by his actions that he is primarily the citizen of a foreign land, plays a thoroughly mischievous part in the life of our body politic. He has no place here; and the sooner he returns to the land to which he feels his real heart-allegiance, the better it will be for every good American. There is no such thing as a hyphenated American who is a good American. The only man who is a good American is the man who is an American and nothing else.

[Galen]

(03-28-2017, 06:29 PM)X_4AD_84 Wrote:

(03-28-2017, 03:22 PM)Galen Wrote:

(03-24-2017, 07:39 PM)Kinser79 Wrote: I'm not particularly fond of Pope Francis.  Seriously the man is a Communist in a Cassock.  He is also calling for the islamification of Europe.  Good thing he's celibate, he doesn't have to worry about the world his children will inherit.

Officially he is celibate but the odds are pretty good he is a homo or molesting a kid given the current state of the Catholic Church.

Before you whine about my reply you might want to actually read about the current state of the Church.  If you read the link you might find that homosexual priests are actually fairly common.

As for Pope Francis being a Communist everything I have ever heard the man say comes right of of Liberation Theology which is little more than Marxism in Christian drag.

There are very few of God's self-appointed representatives that I have a good opinion of and the current pope is not one of them.

Given your rhetoric and PoV I have trouble believing you are actually a libertarian who lives in OR. You remind me of some of the League of the South people I came across when I was somewhat affiliated with them.

"Curse them papists! They are all anti American Commies" blah, blah .....

Not really.  Its more of a contempt for organized religion in general, particularly the people that run it.  Anyone that becomes the head of what appears to be a corrupt organization, religious or not, is always suspect.

[Kinser79]

PBR Wrote:"Medicare for all" would solve most problems.

Is never going to happen because of the reasons I've over the course of several threads indicated.

Quote:The agricultural productivity of the world is finely tuned to the climatic patterns and topography that we have.

Yes, and since people farm and determine what to plant, and when to plant it, and how much of it to plant it can be finely tuned when that climate changes.  Who knows if you guys are right Northern Canada could be the Wheat Saudi Arabia.  

Quote:A hot-summer Mediterranean climate in California is fine because the US government can build reservoirs top detain mountain rains and snow-melt in deep, narrow canyons for release in hot summers.

Do you mean those reservoirs that are blocking salmon from swimming up to their traditional spawning beds?  Granted salmon can be farmed but it is no where near as nutritious as wild caught not to mention the massive amounts of pollution that aquaculture generates and the fact that lots of grain that could be eaten by people is used in making fish food for those "sustainable" fish.

Quote:A hot-summer Mediterranean climate in Michigan would be a disaster because Michigan lacks high mountains and deep, narrow canyons for storing water to be released in hot summers.

Even if AGW is real (I would argue that the impact of humans is much smaller than the climate alarmists would have you believe) Michigan wouldn't have a Mediterranean climate anyway.  It would likely have a humid continental climate which would be at worst case scenario resemble Northern Mississippi at worst case scenario guesses.

Quote:Man can adjust well enough to slow changes -- but not something so swift as losing so much prime farmland in lower-elevation zones in a few decades.

Over the course of decades...you do realize that people are not plants right?  That they can move.  Let us just suppose that sea levels are rising, and that they are doing so at the rate of 2.5cm per year.  That means to inundate an elevation of 10m above current sea level would require 400 years!

I think that's plenty of time to find some new farm land.

The problem with Bangladesh is that it is a river delta region and it is subsiding due to up river damming projects that India has implmented over several centuries.  The same problem Louisiana is having.

Quote: Tribalism is for people at a low level of ethical development.

Tribalism is the default state of mankind.  I would say that those who are not ethical within their own tribe cannot be ethical outside of their tribe.  It is a matter of "if one cannot be trusted with small things why should one be trusted with large things".