If Trump loses the next election

[pbrower2a]

(07-01-2020, 09:06 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(07-01-2020, 08:10 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: The White House staff would do nothing for him -- even cook his meals or do his laundry.

Not even pick up his fast food?  Don't we have to worry about that clause that forbids cruel and unusual punishment?  

...or accept any deliveries to him. In view of his misogyny I can only imagine what some of those deliveries would be.

[Isoko]

Pbrower,

Personally I do not think that Biden should even be running. That itself is corrupt. A new poll has even confirmed that 30 percent of Democrats thinks he has potential dementia. I think that actually is quite insulting to people to have to vote for a mentally failing old man over Trump.

Just saying "well his physicians will sort it out/the vice president can take over" is actually endorsing corruption. Reagan himself was mentally competent on both elections and only started to slip during his last years of office, which fair point Bush took over many responsibilities and that is a fair point.

But Biden - we all know he is slipping from day one so to go and vote for him with a straight face is just....yeah. Personally I think it's more an election of his potential VP rather then Biden. 

The whole Biden thing is a joke.

[pbrower2a]

(07-02-2020, 10:24 AM)Isoko Wrote: Pbrower,

Personally I do not think that Biden should even be running. That itself is corrupt. A new poll has even confirmed that 30 percent of Democrats thinks he has potential dementia. I think that actually is quite insulting to people to have to vote for a mentally failing old man over Trump.

Just saying "well his physicians will sort it out/the vice president can take over" is actually endorsing corruption. Reagan himself was mentally competent on both elections and only started to slip during his last years of office, which fair point Bush took over many responsibilities and that is a fair point.

But Biden - we all know he is slipping from day one so to go and vote for him with a straight face is just....yeah. Personally I think it's more an election of his potential VP rather then Biden. 

The whole Biden thing is a joke.

Trump is worse -- far worse. Trump is cruel, stubborn, despotic, and completely lacking in self-awareness.

We got away with Ronald Reagan because 

(1) Reagan had competent people around him that he and we could trust
(2) others were formulating the policy
(3) Reagan knew that he was deteriorating and could see his role in the Presidency reduced to a ceremonial role as the best circumstance possible under the conditions
(4) Reagan had a good VP who, although a master of underhanded behavior (George Herbert Walker Bush had been director of the CIA) but generally did nothing dirty to Americans 
(5) Reagan was aware of his medical and mental situation, and accepted the consequences.
(6) Reagan respected experts more knowledgeable than he on specific matters   
(7) Reagan did not surround himself so completely with fanatics and cut-throats
(8) Reagan had some humility -- contrast the extreme narcissist that Trump is. 

The worst that I can imagine with a Biden Presidency is a liberal version of Ronald Reagan. -- and not a liberal version of Donald Trump, which could be as horrid. I expect Obama people to be running things, and in view of how the Obama Presidency went, that is more promising than the Nixon people around Reagan.

[Bob Butler 54]

(07-02-2020, 01:52 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: Trump is worse -- far worse. Trump is cruel, stubborn, despotic, and completely lacking in self-awareness.

Nitpick: I would go for narcissistic rather than lacking in self awareness, but I would second the rest.

[pbrower2a]

(07-02-2020, 02:30 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(07-02-2020, 01:52 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: Trump is worse -- far worse. Trump is cruel, stubborn, despotic, and completely lacking in self-awareness.

Nitpick:  I would go for narcissistic rather than lacking in self awareness, but I would second the rest.

People are not narcissists because they are self-aware. In any event I see narcissism as a common cold in contrast to the COVID-19 to which sociopathy and psychopathy are. "Narcissistic" understates Trump. 

I once heard someone say that were it not for narcissism (the love of attention, the desire to appear on the biggest stage of all -- history, and the ego-rush of power) there would be no politicians. I consider Lincoln, Churchill, and FDR to have been highly self-aware. Self-awareness implies knowing one's
limitations as a person. Trump seems not to know that about himself. Putin, Xi, Erdogan, and Kim know how to exploit that.

[Eric the Green]

(07-02-2020, 10:24 AM)Isoko Wrote: Personally I do not think that Biden should even be running. That itself is corrupt. A new poll has even confirmed that 30 percent of Democrats thinks he has potential dementia. I think that actually is quite insulting to people to have to vote for a mentally failing old man over Trump.

Just saying "well his physicians will sort it out/the vice president can take over" is actually endorsing corruption. Reagan himself was mentally competent on both elections and only started to slip during his last years of office, which fair point Bush took over many responsibilities and that is a fair point.

But Biden - we all know he is slipping from day one so to go and vote for him with a straight face is just....yeah. Personally I think it's more an election of his potential VP rather then Biden. 

The whole Biden thing is a joke.

I guess it's a choice between someone who stumbles over his words, versus someone who also stumbles over his words, but also has no self-awareness and no principles.

The better candidates chose not to run, and one of them was not chosen, so we are stuck with Biden.

[David Horn]

(07-02-2020, 04:03 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: I guess it's a choice between someone who stumbles over his words, versus someone who also stumbles over his words, but also has no self-awareness and no principles.

The better candidates chose not to run, and one of them was not chosen, so we are stuck with Biden.

Several better candidates ran, and some were doing quite well until South Carolina. Why a state that will never vote for a Democrat in the General Election should decide the candidate for the rest of us is still a mystery to me.

[Bob Butler 54]

(07-02-2020, 05:24 PM)David Horn Wrote:

(07-02-2020, 04:03 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: I guess it's a choice between someone who stumbles over his words, versus someone who also stumbles over his words, but also has no self-awareness and no principles.

The better candidates chose not to run, and one of them was not chosen, so we are stuck with Biden.

Several better candidates ran, and some were doing quite well until South Carolina. Why a state that will never vote for a Democrat in the General Election should decide the candidate for the rest of us is still a mystery to me.

I suspect that the powers that be decided they would rather win for sure with an establishment candidate than let Bernie hang around. It had nothing to do with letting the people make a choice.

[Eric the Green]

(07-02-2020, 07:24 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(07-02-2020, 05:24 PM)David Horn Wrote:

(07-02-2020, 04:03 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: I guess it's a choice between someone who stumbles over his words, versus someone who also stumbles over his words, but also has no self-awareness and no principles.

The better candidates chose not to run, and one of them was not chosen, so we are stuck with Biden.

Several better candidates ran, and some were doing quite well until South Carolina. Why a state that will never vote for a Democrat in the General Election should decide the candidate for the rest of us is still a mystery to me.

I suspect that the powers that be decided they would rather win for sure with an establishment candidate than let Bernie hang around.  It had nothing to do with letting the people make a choice.

The powers that be gathered around Biden and endorsed him, but the people still made the choice.

No other candidate that ran besides Sanders could have defeated Donald Trump, at least not until now when he seems to be really blowing it. After New Hampshire and Iowa, Sanders and Biden kept the others at bay and they had no chance.

But it was strange that all Biden needed in order to win the nomination was a big win in South Carolina. Certainly, it was a bigger win than expected.

[Isoko]

To be honest, the only candidate who could have clearly beaten Trump without a shadow of a doubt is Sanders. He would have energised the youth vote, the minority vote and probably could have done it quite comfortably. They say that Sanders could have even beaten Trump in 2016.

However, Biden is still a very weak candidate. I think once the dust has settled and September rolls around, we are going to start to see opinion polls shift somewhat. Due to his weakness and lack of mental clarity, I think this race is going to get alot more tighter before all is said and done.

Also the medical establishment mentioned that Biden has not taken a mental cognitive test yet. However the fact that it has been questioned and noted means that there is suspicion of Bidens actual mental performance. No candidate at this stage should even be considered for it, as was noted.

I'll put it this way - if I was an American, if I had a choice between Trump and Biden, I'd vote for Trump due to concerns alone about his mental clarity. I think alot of Americans are going to go to the polls with that also in mind when they do cast their vote.

[Eric the Green]

(07-03-2020, 10:17 AM)Isoko Wrote: To be honest, the only candidate who could have clearly beaten Trump without a shadow of a doubt is Sanders. He would have energised the youth vote, the minority vote and probably could have done it quite comfortably. They say that Sanders could have even beaten Trump in 2016.

However, Biden is still a very weak candidate. I think once the dust has settled and September rolls around, we are going to start to see opinion polls shift somewhat. Due to his weakness and lack of mental clarity, I think this race is going to get alot more tighter before all is said and done.

Also the medical establishment mentioned that Biden has not taken a mental cognitive test yet. However the fact that it has been questioned and noted means that there is suspicion of Bidens actual mental performance. No candidate at this stage should even be considered for it, as was noted.

I'll put it this way - if I was an American, if I had a choice between Trump and Biden, I'd vote for Trump due to concerns alone about his mental clarity. I think alot of Americans are going to go to the polls with that also in mind when they do cast their vote.

You forget that Trump also raises concerns about his mental clarity, and even more because of his mental illness and his lack of any principles.

[Bob Butler 54]

(07-03-2020, 12:12 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(07-03-2020, 10:17 AM)Isoko Wrote: To be honest, the only candidate who could have clearly beaten Trump without a shadow of a doubt is Sanders. He would have energised the youth vote, the minority vote and probably could have done it quite comfortably. They say that Sanders could have even beaten Trump in 2016.

However, Biden is still a very weak candidate. I think once the dust has settled and September rolls around, we are going to start to see opinion polls shift somewhat. Due to his weakness and lack of mental clarity, I think this race is going to get alot more tighter before all is said and done.

Also the medical establishment mentioned that Biden has not taken a mental cognitive test yet. However the fact that it has been questioned and noted means that there is suspicion of Bidens actual mental performance. No candidate at this stage should even be considered for it, as was noted.

I'll put it this way - if I was an American, if I had a choice between Trump and Biden, I'd vote for Trump due to concerns alone about his mental clarity. I think alot of Americans are going to go to the polls with that also in mind when they do cast their vote.

You forget that Trump also raises concerns about his mental clarity, and even more because of his mental illness and his lack of any principles.

At this point the election has become a referendum on Trump. It almost doesn't matter who he is running against.

[Eric the Green]

Joe Biden doesn't seem to be stumbling too much in his speeches these days. His speech starts about 6 and a half minutes into the video.

[Bob Butler 54]

(07-04-2020, 01:30 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: Joe Biden doesn't seem to be stumbling too much in his speeches these days.

I have a feeling Trump and company care more about making his opponent flawed than they care about truth.  As they don't seem to care a whit about truth, it seems a reasonable belief.

Also, if Biden has been laying low for a bit, perhaps he has hired a speech therapist?  If you counter an opponents biggest attack it seems worth the prize.

Hey, it worked for King George the VI.

[Bob Butler 54]

(07-02-2020, 02:30 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(07-02-2020, 01:52 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: Trump is worse -- far worse. Trump is cruel, stubborn, despotic, and completely lacking in self-awareness.

Nitpick:  I would go for narcissistic rather than lacking in self awareness, but I would second the rest.

Hmmm.  In animals, they test for self awareness by dabbing a bit of paint on the animals face, then holding up a mirror.  If he figures out that the mirror is reflecting him, he will wipe off the paint.  That is considered a pass.  The animal has some degree of self awareness.  If he attacks the mirror, viewing it as another beast encroaching on his territory, that would be a fail.

Do you think Trump would fail?  Do you think he would be willing to do the test?  

Once upon a time, the local robin was in the habit of attacking one of my windows.  I nullified the attack by putting a mirror next to the window, to provide a better target, putting the attack through the concrete thus deadening the sound.  Not a self aware robin.

Is there or should there be a requirement that the president should be self aware?  

[Bob Butler 54]

Looking at things, I came up with another scenario. I’m not at all sure it will take place. Opinions?

The Republican Party sold out to become a Trump personality cult. The Tea Party rejected the traditional loyalty of the GOP with the elites. Suddenly, it became very difficult for an establishment candidate to run for national office. Only a few people like Palin or Trump could attract a following, and even they were questionable to say the least. But, if the GOP was to retain the power and influence which they were accustomed to, they had to become subservient to these unusual personalities. It became Trump’s base, not the Republican base. They had no choice but to stumble along in Trump’s wake.

At this point, Trump is on the road to ruin. He might take the GOP along with him. Staying aboard the bandwagon while it is heading for a cliff might not be viewed as prudent. If you want to retain some vistage of power, you want to jump off the rapidly moving bandwagon, hope you survive the fall, then try to build a new bandwagon. Frankly, a new bandwagon will have to wait a bit.

Trump has lost the American People. This is becoming obvious. Time to jump.

We seriously need an administration which will acknowledge COVUS 19 with a scientific response, and recognize the need to end police racial violence. Trump isn’t going to do it. He is going all in with the old values. He is on the road to dragging it out until February 20th.

If enough senators committed to serve the people rather than the party, to vote for impeachment, they could shorten the time America has to wait for a scientific response. If the chance for maintaining power is gone, might a commitment to saving lives save their skin too?

I don’t see Pelosi starting another impeachment unless she has the votes to succeed. It would be up to enough senators to guarantee her the votes needed. It might be enough to save the skins of those who would otherwise soon have to jump from the doomed bandwagon.

Another scenario. Might it have a shot?

[David Horn]

(07-07-2020, 10:09 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: Looking at things, I came up with another scenario.  I’m not at all sure it will take place.  Opinions?

The Republican Party sold out to become a Trump personality cult.  The Tea Party rejected the traditional loyalty of the GOP with the elites.  Suddenly, it became very difficult for an establishment candidate to run for national office.  Only a few people like Palin or Trump could attract a following, and even they were questionable to say the least.  But, if the GOP was to retain the power and influence which they were accustomed to, they had to become subservient to these unusual personalities.  It became Trump’s base, not the Republican base.  They had no choice but to stumble along in Trump’s wake.

At this point, Trump is on the road to ruin.  He might take the GOP along with him.  Staying aboard the bandwagon while it is heading for a cliff might not be viewed as prudent.  If you want to retain some vistage of power, you want to jump off the rapidly moving bandwagon, hope you survive the fall, then try to build a new bandwagon.  Frankly, a new bandwagon will have to wait a bit.

Trump has lost the American People.  This is becoming obvious.  Time to jump.

We seriously need an administration which will acknowledge COVUS 19 with a scientific response, and recognize the need to end police racial violence.  Trump isn’t going to do it.  He is going all in with the old values.  He is on the road to dragging it out until February 20th.

If enough senators committed to serve the people rather than the party, to vote for impeachment, they could shorten the time America has to wait for a scientific response.  If the chance for maintaining power is gone, might a commitment to saving lives save their skin too?

I don’t see Pelosi starting another impeachment unless she has the votes to succeed.  It would be up to enough senators to guarantee her the votes needed.  It might be enough to save the skins of those who would otherwise soon have to jump from the doomed bandwagon.

Another scenario.  Might it have a shot?

In some ways, we're in a period similar to the Know Nothing period when the Whigs collapsed and the Republicans emerged, except this time the GOP created the new version in-house. Assuming that this is a fatal flaw, the GOP may be due for replacement or complete overhaul. We've seen the replacement model in the past, but it was the distant past. An overhaul is more likely.

A true overhaul only works if there is temporary loss of power, and some time to regroup as a "new thing", of sorts. After Wilson, the Dems regrouped under FDR. After Hoover, the GOP regrouped under Ike. That may be what's in store this time as well. After Hoover, the Republicans went 20 years without the White House, and even longer regaining a sold foothold in Congress. That may be the reason the saner members of that party still cling to Trump... at least for now.

[Bob Butler 54]

(07-07-2020, 11:45 AM)David Horn Wrote: In some ways, we're in a period similar to the Know Nothing period when the Whigs collapsed and the Republicans emerged, except this time the GOP created the new version in-house.  Assuming that this is a fatal flaw, the GOP may be due for replacement or complete overhaul.  We've seen the replacement model in the past, but it was the distant past.  An overhaul is more likely.

A true overhaul only  works if there is temporary loss of power, and some time to regroup as a "new thing", of sorts.  After Wilson, the Dems regrouped under FDR. After Hoover, the GOP regrouped under Ike.  That may be what's in store this time as well.  After Hoover, the Republicans went 20 years without the White House, and even longer regaining a sold foothold in Congress.  That may be the reason the saner members of that party still cling to Trump... at least for now.

Yah.  By referencing a new bandwagon having to wait a bit, it was delays after Wilson and Hoover that I was thinking of.  I guess there is no saving those on the bandwagon.  They might as well enjoy the ride until they hit the bottom of the cliff.

Of course, while they are enjoying the free fall, a bunch of people will be dying of Coronavirus...

[David Horn]

(07-08-2020, 05:57 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(07-07-2020, 11:45 AM)David Horn Wrote: In some ways, we're in a period similar to the Know Nothing period when the Whigs collapsed and the Republicans emerged, except this time the GOP created the new version in-house.  Assuming that this is a fatal flaw, the GOP may be due for replacement or complete overhaul.  We've seen the replacement model in the past, but it was the distant past.  An overhaul is more likely.

A true overhaul only  works if there is temporary loss of power, and some time to regroup as a "new thing", of sorts.  After Wilson, the Dems regrouped under FDR. After Hoover, the GOP regrouped under Ike.  That may be what's in store this time as well.  After Hoover, the Republicans went 20 years without the White House, and even longer regaining a sold foothold in Congress.  That may be the reason the saner members of that party still cling to Trump... at least for now.

Yah.  By referencing a new bandwagon having to wait a bit, it was delays after Wilson and Hoover that I was thinking of.  I guess there is no saving those on the bandwagon.  They might as well enjoy the ride until they hit the bottom of the cliff.

Of course, while they are enjoying the free fall, a bunch of people will be dying of Coronavirus...

Sadly so.  I do have to wonder whether some of the less nutty Republicans will try a mea culpa as a way to get back into the game.  I don't think it will work, except for some in the the Deep Red states.  Most will chose to bow out, and join the sympathetic private sector.  They're owed for numerous past favors, so that's a given.

[Bob Butler 54]

(07-08-2020, 12:35 PM)David Horn Wrote:

(07-08-2020, 05:57 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(07-07-2020, 11:45 AM)David Horn Wrote: In some ways, we're in a period similar to the Know Nothing period when the Whigs collapsed and the Republicans emerged, except this time the GOP created the new version in-house.  Assuming that this is a fatal flaw, the GOP may be due for replacement or complete overhaul.  We've seen the replacement model in the past, but it was the distant past.  An overhaul is more likely.

A true overhaul only  works if there is temporary loss of power, and some time to regroup as a "new thing", of sorts.  After Wilson, the Dems regrouped under FDR. After Hoover, the GOP regrouped under Ike.  That may be what's in store this time as well.  After Hoover, the Republicans went 20 years without the White House, and even longer regaining a sold foothold in Congress.  That may be the reason the saner members of that party still cling to Trump... at least for now.

Yah.  By referencing a new bandwagon having to wait a bit, it was delays after Wilson and Hoover that I was thinking of.  I guess there is no saving those on the bandwagon.  They might as well enjoy the ride until they hit the bottom of the cliff.

Of course, while they are enjoying the free fall, a bunch of people will be dying of Coronavirus...

Sadly so.  I do have to wonder whether some of the less nutty Republicans will try a mea culpa as a way to get back into the game.  I don't think it will work, except for some in the the Deep Red states.  Most will chose to bow out, and join the sympathetic private sector.  They're owed for numerous past favors, so that's a given.

Lately it is more common just to distance yourself from Trump through silence.  A few Republicans who are running races coming up are doing that.  Trump is rapidly becoming a liability election wise.  Still, the Republicans as a block voted with Trump in the impeachment.  I don't think silence will be enough, and few are willing to go so far as actually criticize him.  If they do, it will be seen as bending with the wind.