Presidential election, 2016

[playwrite]

(11-11-2016, 02:30 PM)taramarie Wrote:

(11-11-2016, 08:25 AM)pbrower2a Wrote:

(11-11-2016, 01:48 AM)taramarie Wrote: What is the answer of what to replace the current hostile environment? Here have been a few suggestions by someone that i know. A fellow millennial. I totally agree with this list.

"1. If they are complete strangers and you don't have some type of skill-set in persuading people (negotiator, educator on related topics, etc) I would not even bother. Frankly, it takes a lot of patience that I don't see in many people. If you view the person you are trying to persuade as an adversary, there is a good chance that things will go south by the end of the exchange.

The rest of these are assuming you have some type of relationship to the person, even if you are just acquaintances. I also think that they mainly work with in-person interactions. For the specific situation you gave, I think social media is a horrible mismatched medium to use. Without an actual physical body to interact with, these tools get harder to use.

2. Active listening, labeling and mirroring. This is most of what you will be doing. People have their own ideas of what the term "systemic racism" even means. Let someone explain their views/understanding. Resist the need to label them ("you are ignorant, racist, etc"). That will derail the entire conversation. The individual can't absorb information while trying to defend him/herself. You need to know what they know. Mirror back what they said, so both parties can confirm that you understood their viewpoint correctly. Once they confirm it, you can actually *start* the conversation.

3. Don't force someone to admit you are right. That's not the point of the interaction and if someone senses this, they will instinctively resist what you say.

4. Rinse and repeat. When you get to the end of step 2, you can start providing information. But even with that, the persuader has to stay even-tempered and non-judgmental. Avoid starting sentences with "Why". Why is accusatory and puts people into defense mode."

I doubt that the political environment will become any less hostile. The election of Donald Trump is the possible end of all relevance of liberalism in America except in a few states and cities. America is about to become a brutal, authoritarian, hierarchical world. Humanistic values have given way to the values of planters and Gilded-Age plutocrats. The worst parts of the American heritage have prevailed, and they will be in power for perhaps far longer than one term of a Presidency.

If America has been divided on the President largely for the melanin content in his skin, then Donald Trump is going to divide us on class and ethnicity as a cultural Apartheid comes into existence. Know well that even if you are white you have only one excuse for appreciating anything outside the moronic swill of country music, tabloid media, reality television, and fundamentalist Christianity. We are in for a very bad time.... think of the dissolution of Yugoslavia.

If you are a visible minority because of religion or ethnicity, then form your own ethnic neighborhoods (ghettos in the Jewish sense) as fortresses to defend yourselves from outsiders and to preserve what you have every right to consider superior about your heritage. If you are white and nominally Christian and you have any eccentricities that cause you to prefer Bach to country music, then use your heritage as an excuse for difference. Put up that German, Italian, Polish, or Finnish (among others) with pride. The Union Jack can do, too: British and American culture are not the same.

Do not be afraid to send your kids abroad for education. Latin-American countries have some excellent colleges and universities, and they are much less expensive than American money-churners. Countries with declining populations might offer attractive schooling. Sure, your kid might become a Finn, but that I can imagine far worse -- like becoming an American dullard or wasting one's potential. Getting away from the glass ceilings in America (which will go lower and be more rigid -- the analogy will be to  ceilings so low that one will have to bend one;s knees to negotiate one's way in life.

If you are part of a liberal and humanistic culture then you identity as an American is now shaky. But if you like your culture full of substance, then you have no cause for pride in America. That cause for pride  died on November 8, 2016.

Do not try to convince the fanatics on the other side of your rightness. I talked to one Trump supporter and almost came to blows. The fellow said that America needed to vote in accordance with "God's Law", which meant voting against abortion, same-sex marriage, and scientific secularism.

I have my idea of what "God's Laws" are -- the logical dialectic, mathematical rules, and fundamental realities of physics. The basic rules of human decency (which Donald Trump and the fascist wing of American politics make a sick mockery) can be derived, but somehow they are best put into prophecy (do not murder, do not steal, do not perjure yourself, do not make fraudulent oaths, follow parental guidance until such is no longer necessary, have some loyalty to a group, do not endanger marriages) for the instruction of children who are unready to understand why those laws exist.

If you have a religious tradition, then use it to find pretexts for your difference. I consider "Do not exploit others economically" as a worthy corollary of "Thou shalt not steal". Economic exploitation is one of the greatest possible sins, and it will be the cornerstone of the AmeriKKKan economy. (I am tempted to use Black nationalist language of the 1970s... we are all ni**ers now). If you are a Christian of any kind, then know the Sermon on the Mount well, for in it Jesus offers his only economic and political wisdom. He never said, "Sell all your possessions and give them to the rich so that you can follow Me". In Jesus' time the rich were heirs and criminals who had done nothing to earn respect. We may be back there very soon.

Consider starting a small business. Yes it is hard -- but so will be life as a farm or factory laborer, a miner or logger, or domestic servant. Such middle-class jobs as there are will increasingly go to the well-connected who toe the political line beginning with membership in the pro-Trump equivalents of Hitlerjugend, Balilla, or Young Pioneers. The most fanatically devoted will get the chances to attend diploma mills (and American colleges and universities will become those because politics will matter more than creativity and curiosity) where they get to learn to be teachers of the ideological junk or brutal cops. Small businesses demand that the owner and likely his family each work 70 to 80 hours a week -- but so will industrial work. The post-democratic America wil have plenty of work and demand that it be done; it will no longer make pay relate in any way to productivity. Any surplus of productivity will go to the rapacious Master Class devoid of any human decency. 70 to 80 hours a week in a restaurant that your family owns with the privilege of keeping most of the profits within the family is surely better than working 70 to 80 hours for near-starvation pay.

Remember -- it is back to the plantation of the Jim Crow era and the sweatshop of Gilded-Age early capitalism. Count on the Right making America look like a Marxist stereotype of capitalism.

Above all, recognize who your real Savior might be.

KARL MARX

Defeatist attitude means you have already lost and never will better America. If people follow the method I posted above that small change would have a big impact.

That might work in New Zealand.  Even the deer have you kiwis figured out -

[Galen]

(11-11-2016, 02:24 PM)taramarie Wrote: Self reflection of damaging behaviour that helps with dividing people and the nation as a whole. Correcting it. Listen more and try to understand these people and find a solution together. But first and foremost how we converse with each other is number one. Shoot down labels need to stop.

The left has been demonizing white people, white men in particular, by calling them racist,sexist and anything else they could think of even when it was unwarranted.  Keep it up and you are going to have even bigger problems because the reservoirs of white guilt are not bottomless.  This is what the kiwi has been trying to warn you idiots about.

[Eric the Green]

(11-11-2016, 05:08 PM)Galen Wrote:

(11-11-2016, 02:24 PM)taramarie Wrote: Self reflection of damaging behaviour that helps with dividing people and the nation as a whole. Correcting it. Listen more and try to understand these people and find a solution together. But first and foremost how we converse with each other is number one. Shoot down labels need to stop.

The left has been demonizing white people, white men in particular, by calling them racist,sexist and anything else they could thinbk of even when it was unwarranted.  Keep it up and you are going to have even bigger problems because the reservoirs white guilt are not bottomless.  This is what the kiwi has been trying to warn you idiots about.

It was completely and utterly warranted. They are the ones who voted for this madman. And by the biggest majority in the most racist places. But many whites are blind to their own racism. And I don't need any warnings from any kiwis, or anyone who insults me.

[Odin]

(11-11-2016, 05:08 PM)Galen Wrote:

(11-11-2016, 02:24 PM)taramarie Wrote: Self reflection of damaging behaviour that helps with dividing people and the nation as a whole. Correcting it. Listen more and try to understand these people and find a solution together. But first and foremost how we converse with each other is number one. Shoot down labels need to stop.

The left has been demonizing white people, white men in particular, by calling them racist,sexist and anything else they could think of even when it was unwarranted.  Keep it up and you are going to have even bigger problems because the reservoirs of white guilt are not bottomless.  This is what the kiwi has been trying to warn you idiots about.

You are vastly overgeneralizing, here. The "SJW" types are only a small minority of "the left", they just happen to be extremely vocal.

[Bob Butler 54]

(11-11-2016, 09:06 PM)Odin Wrote:

(11-11-2016, 05:08 PM)Galen Wrote:

(11-11-2016, 02:24 PM)taramarie Wrote: Self reflection of damaging behaviour that helps with dividing people and the nation as a whole. Correcting it. Listen more and try to understand these people and find a solution together. But first and foremost how we converse with each other is number one. Shoot down labels need to stop.

The left has been demonizing white people, white men in particular, by calling them racist,sexist and anything else they could think of even when it was unwarranted.  Keep it up and you are going to have even bigger problems because the reservoirs of white guilt are not bottomless.  This is what the kiwi has been trying to warn you idiots about.

You are vastly overgeneralizing, here. The "SJW" types are only a small minority of "the left", they just happen to be extremely vocal.

I'd agree with Odin.  It's only the racisst and sexists that are being called racist and sexist.  However, the racists and sexists seem to be seeing things in "you are with us or against us" mode.  If one calls a racist a racist, they somehow perceive this as all whites being called racists.  This is just an illustration of how an extreme partisan world view can carry one entirely clear of reality.

As well as agreeing that the extreme SJW types are a small minority on the blue side, not everyone on the red side ought to be dumped in with the racists and sexists.  There is an element of stereotypical thinking, where all people on the other side are perceived of as being alike.  Thus, if somebody burns down a black church and spray paints 'Vote Trump' on the side, the blame might be assigned to all Republicans.  The entire Republican party wasn't at that church.

The extreme partisans are going to be screaming at their opposite extreme partisans, but an awful lot of folks aren't screaming and should not be being screamed at.

[Bob Butler 54]

(11-11-2016, 10:24 PM)taramarie Wrote:

(11-11-2016, 09:56 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(11-11-2016, 09:06 PM)Odin Wrote:

(11-11-2016, 05:08 PM)Galen Wrote:

(11-11-2016, 02:24 PM)taramarie Wrote: Self reflection of damaging behaviour that helps with dividing people and the nation as a whole. Correcting it. Listen more and try to understand these people and find a solution together. But first and foremost how we converse with each other is number one. Shoot down labels need to stop.

The left has been demonizing white people, white men in particular, by calling them racist,sexist and anything else they could think of even when it was unwarranted.  Keep it up and you are going to have even bigger problems because the reservoirs of white guilt are not bottomless.  This is what the kiwi has been trying to warn you idiots about.

You are vastly overgeneralizing, here. The "SJW" types are only a small minority of "the left", they just happen to be extremely vocal.

I'd agree with Odin.  It's only the racisst and sexists that are being called racist and sexist.  However, the racists and sexists seem to be seeing things in "you are with us or against us" mode.  If one calls a racist a racist, they somehow perceive this as all whites being called racists.  This is just an illustration of how an extreme partisan world view can carry one entirely clear of reality.

As well as agreeing that the extreme SJW types are a small minority on the blue side, not everyone on the red side ought to be dumped in with the racists and sexists.  There is an element of stereotypical thinking, where all people on the other side are perceived of as being alike.  Thus, if somebody burns down a black church and spray paints 'Vote Trump' on the side, the blame might be assigned to all Republicans.  The entire Republican party wasn't at that church.

The extreme partisans are going to be screaming at their opposite extreme partisans, but an awful lot of folks aren't screaming and should not be being screamed at.

That would also apply to some of those folk who label too. Depends if the person really is sexist etc but as i have said it is not productive to call them that. Does not fix the issue.

Again, I sympathize, but what is the politically correct term for those who abhor political correctness?  The answer isn't to avoid speaking about the problem.  Many with blue leaning values cannot stand silent on the question of bigotry.  I'd suggest that by the problem's nature, there is not and ought not be a way to refer to bigots in a polite non insulting way.  Prove me wrong.  How would you refer to them?

Yes, there is a problem with choosing the correct language.  Do you have any constructive suggestions?

Perhaps the bigots ought to speak up.  How do you prefer to be described?  If bigots want to be treated with politically correct genteel respect, are they interested in responding in kind?

[pbrower2a]

(11-11-2016, 10:21 PM)taramarie Wrote:

(11-11-2016, 09:56 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(11-11-2016, 09:06 PM)Odin Wrote:

(11-11-2016, 05:08 PM)Galen Wrote:

(11-11-2016, 02:24 PM)taramarie Wrote: Self reflection of damaging behaviour that helps with dividing people and the nation as a whole. Correcting it. Listen more and try to understand these people and find a solution together. But first and foremost how we converse with each other is number one. Shoot down labels need to stop.

The left has been demonizing white people, white men in particular, by calling them racist,sexist and anything else they could think of even when it was unwarranted.  Keep it up and you are going to have even bigger problems because the reservoirs of white guilt are not bottomless.  This is what the kiwi has been trying to warn you idiots about.

You are vastly overgeneralizing, here. The "SJW" types are only a small minority of "the left", they just happen to be extremely vocal.

I'd agree with Odin.  It's only the racisst and sexists that are being called racist and sexist.  However, the racists and sexists seem to be seeing things in "you are with us or against us" mode.  If one calls a racist a racist, they somehow perceive this as all whites being called racists.  This is just an illustration of how an extreme partisan world view can carry one entirely clear of reality.

As well as agreeing that the extreme SJW types are a small minority on the blue side, not everyone on the red side ought to be dumped in with the racists and sexists.  There is an element of stereotypical thinking, where all people on the other side are perceived of as being alike.  Thus, if somebody burns down a black church and spray paints 'Vote Trump' on the side, the blame might be assigned to all Republicans.  The entire Republican party wasn't at that church.

The extreme partisans are going to be screaming at their opposite extreme partisans, but an awful lot of folks aren't screaming and should not be being screamed at.

I would have to disagree with you there, That unfortunately is not happening. How do I know? I have been labeled a racist or at the very least racist enabler by a lefty who did not even know me. I was simply just being respectful and listening to both sides (left/right wing). I was immediately shot down and labeled. I had not said a word that was remotely racist. I am as progressive as they come when it comes to equality. I am a promoter of it. I grew up with a culture that went out of its way to celebrate and mix cultures. So no it is not just racists and sexists being labeled. All you have to do in some cases is just show any sign you are not totally with the group and bam SEXIST RACIST DEPLORABLE! That is why I have mentioned there is some tribalism going on.

Racism is not a collective fault; it is a personal fault. So it is with another vice like alcoholism. Just because one recognizes a racist in Podunk a racist and so calls him does not mean that everyone in Podunk is a racist.

America is going from a land of assimilation, cultural at the least if not ethnic, to an unwieldy mosaic of tribal enclaves. based upon ethnicity and religion. The 2016 election is drawing the lines, and the lines are often very obvious, as between middle-class blacks and poor whites. Maybe I am a freak, but I identify more easily with the non-white parts of the middle class than I do with certain white subcultures.

Much of it is religious in nature. I am finding that one of the most reliable determiners of where one is on some core issues of the Religious Right -- abortion, same-sex marriage, school prayer, and the debate between creationism and evolution. It would seem that those in the Religious Right believe that they must vote for any nominee who promises to end abortion, same-sex marriage, and the teaching of evolution while forcing (fundamentalist) school prayer into the classroom no matter how horrible that nominee is on other issues. That nominee could promise to turn millions into serfs and get their votes.  So how do people believe such?

As I see it, the fundamentalist believes that the sole purpose of life is to prepare for the judgment of a harsh and unforgiving God. To vote for someone who supports abortion or same-sex marriage because such has been decided by the Constitution is thus to be just as evil as someone who commits a mass killing and just as damned by an intolerant God. (Just think of the lack of proportionality!). The fundamentalist must sacrifice his economic interests and those of family members to that end. Higher waves? Worthless in Hell! Better schools? If they lead one into the ways of wickedness then they might as well not exist. So suffer in This World for rewards in the Afterlife.

Such people voted heavily for a fascist America, an entity certain to have more deaths from workplace accidents and almost as certain to start aggressive warfare that creates mass death.

This said, I cannot suffer an ideology that considers mass suffering for the indulgence of an economic elite in any way conscionable. If I cannot oppose such as a liberal, then I might become by default a Marxist.

[pbrower2a]

(11-11-2016, 11:29 PM)aramarie Wrote:

(11-11-2016, 11:08 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: "America is going from a land of assimilation, cultural at the least if not ethnic, to an unwieldy mosaic of tribal enclaves. based upon ethnicity and religion. " (my old stuff in blue)

 Agreed. I could offer suggestions on how to combat that but it would not be solved in your lifetime.

Is that because you don't expect me to reach my eighties or because you expect me to die well before the climax is settled. I have shown signs of suicial tendencies, nut perhaps as importantly my view sare the sorts likely to get myself murdered or executed if I do not go to a place more compatible with my intellectual attitudes.

Quote:" So how do people believe such?" Because their subculture and the religious right media knows which buttons to push with these people. However not all religious right will believe all these things. That is why it is important to listen to all of them. Danielle showed that she is quite left wing culturally on some issues for instance. It was great that she explained where she stood on issues as it was one example.

We are going to see hybrids -- like some Christian fundamentalists relatively liberal on issues like sex, economics, or culture. But will those have a place other than the scaffold?

Quote:"As I see it, the fundamentalist believes that the sole purpose of life is to prepare for the judgment of a harsh and unforgiving God. To vote for someone who supports abortion or same-sex marriage because such has been decided by the Constitution is thus to be just as evil as someone who commits a mass killing and just as damned by an intolerant God. (Just think of the lack of proportionality!). The fundamentalist must sacrifice his economic interests and those of family members to that end. Higher waves? Worthless in Hell! Better schools? If they lead one into the ways of wickedness then they might as well not exist. So suffer in This World for rewards in the Afterlife."

This is why my country chooses to be secular. To not push religion into politics. Culture/religion has no place in politics. It becomes way too personal. However I would be interested to know on a one on one reporting of why they feel it is ok to push these ideals onto others and why it is not ok for lefties to push their beliefs onto them. That is why discussion and reflection needs to happen. I have seen so many comments of people just bashing and labeling. Eve here. It does not work.

New Zealand does not have the great number of fundamentalist Christians that America does. I can easily imagine America becoming a "Christian and Corporate state", a nightmare for people not part of the corporate power structure or part of the favored ethnic and religious group, the one that demands the least.

New Zealand is toward the top of the list of countries to which I would prefer to emigrate should America become too dangerous for me. 

Quote:"Such people voted heavily for a fascist America, an entity certain to have more deaths from workplace accidents and almost as certain to start aggressive warfare that creates mass death."
Is he a fascist? Also do you think perhaps some of them voted merely because they did not want another Clinton in power? Have you asked them why they voted for him? All of them? Or are you just guessing their motives? Not being aggressive here just so you know. I am genuinely interested.

I have heard some of them. To fit into the world that the elites offer the Christian fundamentalists -- impoverished, mindless, and joyless -- is impossible. I would commit suicide. Maybe one must be a fundamentalist to accept the low-paid service jobs that the awful American educational system consigns people to.

Quote:"This said, I cannot suffer an ideology that considers mass suffering for the indulgence of an economic elite in any way conscionable." I understand that. This message is not one that is to back down from left wing ideology. Not at all. Culturally I lean very much left too (by American standards) as NZ has no left wing/right wing cultural/political divide. I was raised in it with no question till I encountered what goes on in America. So I understand your pain. I really do. But listening and conversation needs to be had without aggression of these individuals and no negative labeling. It really does nothing beneficial to solve these issues.

I see America splintering into a mosaic of communities often hostile to neighboring communities. Donald trump has accelerated a trend that seemed to have moderated recently.

[Bob Butler 54]

(11-11-2016, 11:02 PM)taramarie Wrote: "are they interested in responding in kind?" we cannot know but we will never know if we do not pursue a kinder approach first. I was blocked by Eric who thought I was attacking him because I wanted him to listen to people and their viewpoints. I did get frustrated I will not lie. Some naturally will be set in their ways like Eric. But we must look at these people as individuals who are not all the same. They will have their own individual reasons why they appear racist sexist whatever. Talk to them. Do not shoot them down. Do NOT get hostile with them. Like Eric they will harden and double down on their beliefs. It is that simple. If the gentle approach does not work with some well you cannot win them all. But lets see. It may be a wiser method than what people have currently been doing.

Well, I would suggest bigots aren't interested in civility in mutual respect, almost by definition.  What is a bigot after all?

But there are multiple approaches to how one communicates one's values, on this issue and perhaps any such values clash.

Eric and others engage in strident flame wars.  I tend to agree his approach isn't overly constructive.  The response to a partisan's rant is apt to be a partisan rant coming right back in the other direction.  You are absolutely correct that this doesn't tend to be constructive.  It rapidly shifts from issue talk to personal insult to mutual character assassination.  Still, it continues indefinitely with volume and intensity.  I can only assume that both groups of extreme partisans take some sort of pleasure in listening to each other talk, or perhaps listening to themselves talk might be closer to the core.  I sometimes wonder if it is less about values, more about an enjoyment of hate.

If you wish to try other approaches, be my guest.  It takes all kinds.  That some prefer one style of communications doesn't suggest that other approaches have no merit.  I'd just suggest that convincing all blue folk to use the same communication style might not be any easier than convincing red folk to listen.

As an INTP, an engineer archetype, my goal is often to perceive a problem so clearly, to describe it so well, that the other guys have to drop one of their arguments, to retreat to another line of defense.  Success might be having someone not post for a few days, and when he returns he uses a different angle or shifts to another issue entirely.  I don't really expect to turn red folks blue or blue folks red.  I don't even expect most folk to concede that their point was flawed.  A lot of folk will never admit flaws in their world views.  Success has to be implied.  A few days silence and a change of subject are cause for silent celebration but not gloating.  A few months silence followed by a switch from Jr. High level simplistic marxism to falling in line behind a Robber Baron makes it harder to avoid gloating.  

It might be akin in feeling to World War I ground combat.  Taking one row of trenches isn't going to win the war.  You know they are just going to retreat to the next row of trenches and continue a slightly different fight.  Still, when partisans are truly well dug in, that's usually about all one can do.

Sometimes this requires blunt clarity.  If you listen to what they are saying, and you know their thinking is flawed, it is often possible to place one's rhetorical chisel precisely on the flaw then swing one's hammer hard.  Using this approach to full effect doesn't call for a dainty tack hammer suitable for upholstery.  Sometimes one wants and needs a sledge hammer.

Not always.  Some red folk actually get into moods where they listen on occasion.  When that happens, the kinder gentler approach is called for.

In this conversation on bigotry, the broad discussion might be between "political correctness can be and has been taken too far" and "there are true out and out bigots out there, quite active, who must be checked".  I'd start by conceding that political correctness has been taken too far, nod approval to rolling it back when appropriate, but to separate nitpick overuse of affirmative action or insults that might have been more imagined than real as not comparable with burning down churches.  I'm looking to give ground when appropriate to give ground, but to maintain focus on the real problems of violence and prejudice.

I'll be as polite as I can be without losing intensity and focus, but the nature of the problem suggests that the intensity and focus is required.

If you didn't live through the awakening, this might be a bit hard to understand.  By all means, though, try your kinder gentler approach.

[pbrower2a]

(11-11-2016, 11:47 PM)taramarie Wrote: Check this out guys. This is a message a former first wave 4T member just posted on the issue of tribalism and no communication/listening. Remember Matthew Elmslie? This is his message.

"I follow someone on Twitter who is strongly advocating that if you know someone who voted Trump, cut them out of your life completely and immediately. Doesn't matter if it's your dying mother; cut off all contact with no warning. And I actually do get that. But I can't see myself actually doing it. Not that we get a lot of Trump voters up here."

That is unfair.

In view of the people Donald Trump has been selecting for his administration, I can assure you that working people who voted for him will be the first to feel betrayed. Never trust right-wingers who pretend to be friends of the working man. They always turn on the worker in favor of his boss and the owner of his workplace. Donal;d Trump will lshow himself as a firm believer in a pure, dehumanized plutocracy.

Many who voted for him are going to hate him. Those voters did not believe that they would be victims of his ideology.

Unite them with liberals and there might be some chance for Donald Trump to be a one-term President succeeded by someone more to the Left. That is the only hope for the restoration of democracy in America without a revolution or a change imposed from elsewhere.

[Eric the Green]

(11-12-2016, 12:14 AM)pbrower2a Wrote:

(11-11-2016, 11:47 PM)taramarie Wrote: Check this out guys. This is a message a former first wave 4T member just posted on the issue of tribalism and no communication/listening. Remember Matthew Elmslie? This is his message.

"I follow someone on Twitter who is strongly advocating that if you know someone who voted Trump, cut them out of your life completely and immediately. Doesn't matter if it's your dying mother; cut off all contact with no warning. And I actually do get that. But I can't see myself actually doing it. Not that we get a lot of Trump voters up here."

That is unfair.

In view of the people Donald Trump has been selecting for his administration, I can assure you that working people who voted for him will be the first to feel betrayed. Never trust right-wingers who pretend to be friends of the working man. They always turn on the worker in favor of his boss and the owner of his workplace. Donal;d Trump will lshow himself as a firm believer in a pure, dehumanized plutocracy.

Many who voted for him are going to hate him. Those voters did not believe that they would be victims of his ideology.

Unite them with liberals and there might be some chance for Donald Trump to be a one-term President succeeded by someone more to the Left. That is the only hope for the restoration of democracy in America without a revolution or a change imposed from elsewhere.

Amen, we can only hope.

[Classic-Xer]

(11-11-2016, 10:49 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(11-11-2016, 10:24 PM)taramarie Wrote:

(11-11-2016, 09:56 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(11-11-2016, 09:06 PM)Odin Wrote:

(11-11-2016, 05:08 PM)Galen Wrote: The left has been demonizing white people, white men in particular, by calling them racist,sexist and anything else they could think of even when it was unwarranted.  Keep it up and you are going to have even bigger problems because the reservoirs of white guilt are not bottomless.  This is what the kiwi has been trying to warn you idiots about.

You are vastly overgeneralizing, here. The "SJW" types are only a small minority of "the left", they just happen to be extremely vocal.

I'd agree with Odin.  It's only the racisst and sexists that are being called racist and sexist.  However, the racists and sexists seem to be seeing things in "you are with us or against us" mode.  If one calls a racist a racist, they somehow perceive this as all whites being called racists.  This is just an illustration of how an extreme partisan world view can carry one entirely clear of reality.

As well as agreeing that the extreme SJW types are a small minority on the blue side, not everyone on the red side ought to be dumped in with the racists and sexists.  There is an element of stereotypical thinking, where all people on the other side are perceived of as being alike.  Thus, if somebody burns down a black church and spray paints 'Vote Trump' on the side, the blame might be assigned to all Republicans.  The entire Republican party wasn't at that church.

The extreme partisans are going to be screaming at their opposite extreme partisans, but an awful lot of folks aren't screaming and should not be being screamed at.

That would also apply to some of those folk who label too. Depends if the person really is sexist etc but as i have said it is not productive to call them that. Does not fix the issue.

Again, I sympathize, but what is the politically correct term for those who abhor political correctness?  The answer isn't to avoid speaking about the problem.  Many with blue leaning values cannot stand silent on the question of bigotry.  I'd suggest that by the problem's nature, there is not and ought not be a way to refer to bigots in a polite non insulting way.  Prove me wrong.  How would you refer to them?

Yes, there is a problem with choosing the correct language.  Do you have any constructive suggestions?

Perhaps the bigots ought to speak up.  How do you prefer to be described?  If bigots want to be treated with politically correct genteel respect, are they interested in responding in kind?

I don't expect Playdude or Eric to speak up anytime soon. I suggest that you address/remove all the bigotry that currently on your side before you start trying to address/remove it from the other side. I tend respond to them negatively. I tend to use terms like clueless or idiot or twit to describe their low level of knowledge pertaining to the people that they're putting down. I know a lot of liberals.The smart ones keep their negative opinions to themselves because they know they're not the only ones in the world. I've listened to a lot of liberals on TV. I've read a lot stuff written by liberals here and else where and the majority of those liberals are bigots or employees of bigots. I would like to know what cream puff worlds that you guys come from and live in? Are you lower order lib's wealthy enough to afford the amount of protection and armed security the uppity liberals can afford? My careless minded liberal neighbor found out that she's touchable? OK. We've been watching a bunch of bigots parading around, beating up people and destroying stuff for a few days. Now, you want to talk about the term "deplorable" and who's group that it more directly applies, watch the news you'll see them and you may begin to understand why your butts were kicked in this election.

[Bob Butler 54]

(11-12-2016, 12:38 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(11-11-2016, 10:49 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(11-11-2016, 10:24 PM)taramarie Wrote:

(11-11-2016, 09:56 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(11-11-2016, 09:06 PM)Odin Wrote: You are vastly overgeneralizing, here. The "SJW" types are only a small minority of "the left", they just happen to be extremely vocal.

I'd agree with Odin.  It's only the racisst and sexists that are being called racist and sexist.  However, the racists and sexists seem to be seeing things in "you are with us or against us" mode.  If one calls a racist a racist, they somehow perceive this as all whites being called racists.  This is just an illustration of how an extreme partisan world view can carry one entirely clear of reality.

As well as agreeing that the extreme SJW types are a small minority on the blue side, not everyone on the red side ought to be dumped in with the racists and sexists.  There is an element of stereotypical thinking, where all people on the other side are perceived of as being alike.  Thus, if somebody burns down a black church and spray paints 'Vote Trump' on the side, the blame might be assigned to all Republicans.  The entire Republican party wasn't at that church.

The extreme partisans are going to be screaming at their opposite extreme partisans, but an awful lot of folks aren't screaming and should not be being screamed at.

That would also apply to some of those folk who label too. Depends if the person really is sexist etc but as i have said it is not productive to call them that. Does not fix the issue.

Again, I sympathize, but what is the politically correct term for those who abhor political correctness?  The answer isn't to avoid speaking about the problem.  Many with blue leaning values cannot stand silent on the question of bigotry.  I'd suggest that by the problem's nature, there is not and ought not be a way to refer to bigots in a polite non insulting way.  Prove me wrong.  How would you refer to them?

Yes, there is a problem with choosing the correct language.  Do you have any constructive suggestions?

Perhaps the bigots ought to speak up.  How do you prefer to be described?  If bigots want to be treated with politically correct genteel respect, are they interested in responding in kind?

I don't expect Playdude or Eric to speak up anytime soon. I suggest that you address/remove all the bigotry that currently on your side before you start trying to address/remove it from the other side. I tend respond to them negatively. I tend to use terms like clueless or idiot or twit to describe their low level of knowledge pertaining to the people that they're putting down. I know a lot of liberals.The smart ones keep their negative opinions to themselves because they know they're not the only ones in the world. I've listened to a lot of liberals on TV.  I've read a lot stuff written by liberals here and else where and the majority of those liberals are bigots or employees of bigots. I would like to know what cream puff worlds that you guys come from and live in? Are you lower order lib's wealthy enough to afford the amount of protection and armed security the uppity liberals can afford? My careless minded liberal neighbor found out that she's touchable? OK. We've been watching a bunch of bigots parading around, beating up people and destroying stuff for a few days. Now, you want to talk about the term "deplorable" and who's group that it more directly applies, watch the news you'll see them and you may begin to understand why your butts were kicked in this election.

[Bob Butler 54]

(11-12-2016, 12:38 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: I don't expect Playdude or Eric to speak up anytime soon.

Here once again, I disagree.  I don’t expect Playwright or Eric to remain quiet any time soon.  

(11-12-2016, 12:38 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: I suggest that you address/remove all the bigotry that currently on your side before you start trying to address/remove it from the other side. I tend respond to them negatively. I tend to use terms like clueless or idiot or twit to describe their low level of knowledge pertaining to the people that they're putting down. I know a lot of liberals.The smart ones keep their negative opinions to themselves because they know they're not the only ones in the world. I've listened to a lot of liberals on TV.  I've read a lot stuff written by liberals here and else where and the majority of those liberals are bigots or employees of bigots. I would like to know what cream puff worlds that you guys come from and live in? Are you lower order lib's wealthy enough to afford the amount of protection and armed security the uppity liberals can afford? My careless minded liberal neighbor found out that she's touchable? OK. We've been watching a bunch of bigots parading around, beating up people and destroying stuff for a few days. Now, you want to talk about the term "deplorable" and who's group that it more directly applies, watch the news you'll see them and you may begin to understand why your butts were kicked in this election.

Your paragraph above and other similar partisan rants don’t touch me.  I perceive such rants as strikes of the swing and a miss variety.  I don’t hate white folk.  I see racist and sexist behavior as grossly undesirable, and would focus my feelings on those individuals who engage in such behavior.  I don’t see all Republicans as stupid, but to me it is clear that borrow and spend trickle down leads to economic collapse.  I’d like to talk about economic issues rather than insult large groups of people with a broad brush.  In short, I don’t see your vile stereotypes as having any relationship with myself or my predominantly liberal Massachusetts neighbors.

What sort of cream puff world do I live in?  When I was in the seventh grade, slot cars were a big rage.  (Before radio control was affordable, toy cars had to follow fixed tracks.)  There was a slot car arcade in downtown Rockland where one could race on larger tracks than would ever fit in a home, racing against any number of opponents.  I didn’t keep a careful enough eye on my car, and another kid lifted it, slipped it into his pocket.  My GI father was outraged enough with this crime that he insisted on a police investigation.  He was humored.  The investigation, of course, went nowhere.

That was my first, latest and last encounter with crime and the law.  That’s the sort of cream puff world this liberal lives in.  While I know that crime exists, and that I have been more lucky than totally safe, I’m not a fearful besieged potential victim who feels he needs an alarm system, a dog and a gun.

Reading Hillbilly Eulogy, I understand that red culture is very very different.  Things in other parts of the country, I understand, can be quite deplorable.  Entirely different value sets are inevitable in good part because entirely different value sets can be flawed and create their own problems.  I can quite understand your anger in abstract, but not having lived in the red rural culture the understanding is quite abstract and incomplete.

What is difficult to comprehend is how red folk manage to blame blue folk for what the red folk are doing to each other.  Hillbilly Eulogy does a decent job of starting to explore this.  There is an element of blaming everyone but one’s self for one’s problems, and the culture is deep.

Still, not all Republicans are caught up in the Hillbilly culture.  Hillbilly culture is part of the problem, but not the entire problem by any means.

Now, if you are expecting me to change Playwright and Eric, you are vastly over estimating my super powers.  They are way beyond my pay grade.  If you recall, I do try from time to time.  My efforts rolled off them much like water off a duck, much like my efforts with you.  Extreme partisans whose world views are centered on vile stereotypes, who’s arguments feature vile stereotypes, are problematic.  Conversation is nigh on useless.

I do see a plausible spiral of violence.  Minorities are afraid of Trump’s rhetoric during the election.  Bigots are emboldened by Trump’s rhetoric during the election.  While Trump hasn’t been fanning the flames since he was elected, neither is he throwing water on them.  It is too soon to say how far the spiral might go, but I’m nervous enough to keep watch and insert state of the spiral posts here as appropriate.  

I am also looking into various and numerous ‘Why Trump Won” and “Why Clinton Lost” articles that go deeper than repeating vile stereotypes.  Are you interested in talking about them, or are you focused entirely on your own hatred?

[Galen]

(11-12-2016, 04:05 AM)taramarie Wrote: My own thoughts I just want to add on to the last part. Once we are self aware of how we treat others negatively and our bias we can control it and choose a wiser tactic to approach those we are in disagreement with.

I remember the Tea Party protests of of 2009-2010 and two things come to mind.  First, those protests were not violent.  Second they cleaned up after themselves. The current protests against President-elect Donald Trump have been violent and left a big mess behind.  Hell, the Occupy protests of 2009 also left a big mess that others, at taxpayer expense, had to clean up.

I sit here and watch the riots in Portland, Oregon it occurs to me that had those been Libertarian, Republican or a Religious organization that had behaved that way then the police would have been called in much sooner to arrest them.  It is this obvious double standard that annoys me so much.

[Odin]

(11-11-2016, 10:21 PM)taramarie Wrote: All you have to do in some cases is just show any sign you are not totally with the group and bam SEXIST RACIST DEPLORABLE! That is why I have mentioned there is some tribalism going on.

Yeah, I got banned from a left-wing board on Reddit for this exact reason. There was a thread about an incident at the University of North Dakota were some women locked out their black roommate from their dorm apartment and post an image to Instagram captioned "locked out the black bitch". Sure, what those women did was clearly insensitive and they clearly needed a stern talking to, but there were demands from the SJW types for these women to be expelled, and some extremists even wanted them banned from EVERY public university. I pointed out how stupidly counterproductive this all is and is just cathartic rage being rationalized as "justice" and won't do anything to change people's minds, which is when I got banned.

[radind]

Time for reflection.

Can a divided America heal?

http://www.ted.com/talks/jonathan_haidt_...eek_button

 … “Jonathan Haidt … describes the patterns of thinking and historical causes that have led to such sharp divisions in America — and provides a vision for how the country might move forward.”…

[playwrite]

(11-11-2016, 05:14 PM)Eric the Green Wrote:

(11-11-2016, 05:08 PM)Galen Wrote:

(11-11-2016, 02:24 PM)taramarie Wrote: Self reflection of damaging behaviour that helps with dividing people and the nation as a whole. Correcting it. Listen more and try to understand these people and find a solution together. But first and foremost how we converse with each other is number one. Shoot down labels need to stop.

The left has been demonizing white people, white men in particular, by calling them racist,sexist and anything else they could thinbk of even when it was unwarranted.  Keep it up and you are going to have even bigger problems because the reservoirs white guilt are not bottomless.  This is what the kiwi has been trying to warn you idiots about.

It was completely and utterly warranted. They are the ones who voted for this madman. And by the biggest majority in the most racist places. But many whites are blind to their own racism. And I don't need any warnings from any kiwis, or anyone who insults me.

Spot on, Eric.

I've expanded on the scantimonious warnings from Ms Fluffy of Kiwiland here -

http://generational-theory.com/forum/thr...l#pid12455

Enjoy.

[playwrite]

(11-12-2016, 12:38 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote:

(11-11-2016, 10:49 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(11-11-2016, 10:24 PM)taramarie Wrote:

(11-11-2016, 09:56 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote:

(11-11-2016, 09:06 PM)Odin Wrote: You are vastly overgeneralizing, here. The "SJW" types are only a small minority of "the left", they just happen to be extremely vocal.

I'd agree with Odin.  It's only the racisst and sexists that are being called racist and sexist.  However, the racists and sexists seem to be seeing things in "you are with us or against us" mode.  If one calls a racist a racist, they somehow perceive this as all whites being called racists.  This is just an illustration of how an extreme partisan world view can carry one entirely clear of reality.

As well as agreeing that the extreme SJW types are a small minority on the blue side, not everyone on the red side ought to be dumped in with the racists and sexists.  There is an element of stereotypical thinking, where all people on the other side are perceived of as being alike.  Thus, if somebody burns down a black church and spray paints 'Vote Trump' on the side, the blame might be assigned to all Republicans.  The entire Republican party wasn't at that church.

The extreme partisans are going to be screaming at their opposite extreme partisans, but an awful lot of folks aren't screaming and should not be being screamed at.

That would also apply to some of those folk who label too. Depends if the person really is sexist etc but as i have said it is not productive to call them that. Does not fix the issue.

Again, I sympathize, but what is the politically correct term for those who abhor political correctness?  The answer isn't to avoid speaking about the problem.  Many with blue leaning values cannot stand silent on the question of bigotry.  I'd suggest that by the problem's nature, there is not and ought not be a way to refer to bigots in a polite non insulting way.  Prove me wrong.  How would you refer to them?

Yes, there is a problem with choosing the correct language.  Do you have any constructive suggestions?

Perhaps the bigots ought to speak up.  How do you prefer to be described?  If bigots want to be treated with politically correct genteel respect, are they interested in responding in kind?

I don't expect Playdude or Eric to speak up anytime soon. I suggest that you address/remove all the bigotry that currently on your side before you start trying to address/remove it from the other side. I tend respond to them negatively. I tend to use terms like clueless or idiot or twit to describe their low level of knowledge pertaining to the people that they're putting down. I know a lot of liberals.The smart ones keep their negative opinions to themselves because they know they're not the only ones in the world. I've listened to a lot of liberals on TV.  I've read a lot stuff written by liberals here and else where and the majority of those liberals are bigots or employees of bigots. I would like to know what cream puff worlds that you guys come from and live in? Are you lower order lib's wealthy enough to afford the amount of protection and armed security the uppity liberals can afford? My careless minded liberal neighbor found out that she's touchable? OK. We've been watching a bunch of bigots parading around, beating up people and destroying stuff for a few days. Now, you want to talk about the term "deplorable" and who's group that it more directly applies, watch the news you'll see them and you may begin to understand why your butts were kicked in this election.

We got our butts kick because there are too many of you that believe the zombie apocalpse is just around the corner and a Manhatten billioniare (who lives down the avenue from me) big daddy actually gives a shit about you.  I'm still struggling with whether this is more funny than pathetic.

[Eric the Green]

We voted for the apocalypse Tuesday; there's no evading that fact.