If Trump loses the next election

[Bob Butler 54]

The AP recently put out a piece saying Trump is not committing to honoring the election result.  It would only matter if it were vaguely close, which the current polls are not.

[TnT]

My concern is that Trump is only the symptom. I have some conservative friends who, when I ask them why they like (or liked) Trump, say, "I like that he tells it like it is."

However, like many conservatives, they are not much interested in drilling into issues or figuring out what makes something make sense or not. Bumper stickers. Black and white.

Thus, when I ask, "What is IT that he tells it like, that you like?" Blank stares. Then, some will bring up "political correctness." One friend of mine used the example of janitors being wanted to be called "Custodial Engineers," or some such thing. Then of course I ask them to give me an example of Political Correctness that does NOT consist of someone criticizing someone else for being too sensitive.

Here's how I diagnose this. Trump's idiot savant talent is his ability to bullshit. He's really good at it. His overt and covert statements about the underclass that he needs to have, appeal to probably 30-40% of our population. They're not dumb. They can hear the occult and not-so-occult racism in his rants. They can hear that they have been vicitmized by the "Other." This is not even controversial - it can be demonstrated just by listening to and quoting what the man says, over and over again.

So what do we do as a country? How can we continue to live together? The know-nothings, the anti-science, the anti-education, the evangelistic "christians," the folks who believe in angels, a flat earth, global conspiracies, and the Protocols of the Zion. These folks are our fellow citizens. They're not going away. We have to live with them. They have to live with us.

Finally, once the game of Lose-Lose begins, there's no choice any more. Folks who are inclined to play Win-Win, or even Win-Lose don't get to do that. Base survival means that once we're playing Lose-Lose, it's either fight until it's over - that's where everyone is basically a Loser - or roll over and die.

We are a tragically weakened country. Trump and his corrupt lickspittles have cut many of the ties that bind together legitimate institutions and have discredited most civilized values. We are not immune to natural law. Weakened enough, we will become easy pickings.

[Eric the Green]

My hope is that in the middle of a 4T, it always looks like we may not make it out alive while it's going on. Think of Washington at Valley Forge, and those many who pledged their lives and sacred honor who in fact lost their lives. Think of the thousands being shot down at Cold Harbor and the horror of Sherman's March. Think of the fascists taking over Europe and East Asia in the midst of a never-ending economic depression. But we made it through, and it was the darkness before a better day. Are we a worse and less-able people than those who fought through past 4Ts and came out the other side? As bad as we are, I don't think so.

[pbrower2a]

(07-19-2020, 05:16 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: My hope is that in the middle of a 4T, it always looks like we may not make it out alive while it's going on. Think of Washington at Valley Forge, and those many who pledged their lives and sacred honor who in fact lost their lives. Think of the thousands being shot down at Cold Harbor and the horror of Sherman's March. Think of the fascists taking over Europe and East Asia in the midst of a never-ending economic depression. But we made it through, and it was the darkness before a better day. Are we a worse and less-able people than those who fought through past 4Ts and came out the other side? As bad as we are, I don't think so.

Our economy is strong enough to allow anyone with problems to get bread, and we certainly have the circuses in the form of television. The old smear of the television as the "idiot screen", whether we watch sports, bad reality TV, or music videos, or watch lame-brained movies or play mindless video games, is even truer than when one had to choose between Milton Berle or Fulton Sheen. 

We are fortunate this time that we do not have the never-ending economic depression; the politicians now know enough to back the banks against runs and to use an economic downturn to do renovations of infrastructure. Are we less courageous and less willing to sacrifice?

OK, it would be easy to demonize the SARS-2 virus behind COVID-19. Little ever has so fit the description "Enemy of the People" as that virus. I look at an image of that virus and I see a demonized image much like an American wartime image of Hitler, Mussolini, or Tojo... or more recently Saddam Hussein or Osama bin Laden... except that it has no human characteristics. That virus is fair game for extermination.

If I were President I would promote hand-washing and mask-wearing as the easiest ways of protecting people... people may think of soap as a rather gentle chemical, but it literally rips SARS-2 apart and breaks it down. Process food -- wear a mask. Use a toilet or get your hands dirty or sweaty-- wash them. I would have had the economy shut down faster and tighter, and we would be out of the mess faster.

Donald Trump is a catastrophic failure. When we needed unity in protecting the lives of tens of thousands of people who did not need to die, he divided us. He sponsored quick-buck 3T behavior when such was too dangerous to continue. For that he will be reviled for the ages as the Caligula of American history.

[David Horn]

(07-19-2020, 04:25 PM)TnT Wrote: My concern is that Trump is only the symptom.  I have some conservative friends who, when I ask them why they like (or liked) Trump, say, "I like that he tells it like it is."

However, like many conservatives, they are not much interested in drilling into issues or figuring out what makes something make sense or not.  Bumper stickers.  Black and white.

Thus, when I ask, "What is IT that he tells it like, that you like?"  Blank stares.  Then, some will bring up "political correctness."  One friend of mine used the example of janitors being wanted to be called "Custodial Engineers," or some such thing.  Then of course I ask them to give me an example of Political Correctness that does NOT consist of someone criticizing someone else for being too sensitive.  

Here's how I diagnose this.  Trump's idiot savant talent is his ability to bullshit.  He's really good at it.  His overt and covert statements about the underclass that he needs to have, appeal to probably 30-40% of our population.  They're not dumb.  They can hear the occult and not-so-occult racism in his rants.  They can hear that they have been vicitmized by the "Other."  This is not even controversial - it can be demonstrated just by listening to and quoting what the man says, over and over again.

So what do we do as a country?  How can we continue to live together?  The know-nothings, the anti-science, the anti-education, the evangelistic "christians," the folks who believe in angels, a flat earth, global conspiracies, and the Protocols of the Zion.  These folks are our fellow citizens.  They're not going away.  We have to live with them.  They have to live with us.

Finally, once the game of Lose-Lose begins, there's no choice any more.  Folks who are inclined to play Win-Win, or even Win-Lose don't get to do that.  Base survival means that once we're playing Lose-Lose, it's either fight until it's over - that's where everyone is basically a Loser - or roll over and die.

We are a tragically weakened country.  Trump and his corrupt lickspittles have cut many of the ties that bind together legitimate institutions and have discredited most civilized values.  We are not immune to natural law.  Weakened enough, we will become easy pickings.

There may be an argument for going our own separate ways this time.  Let's assume the election is adequately definitive that the Trumpists have no leg to stand on.  Will they see it that way?  Will they fight to the death, if that's what they decide to do, reason be damned?  I honestly can't say.

Trump's go to conspiracy theory ally (QAnon) is actually running real live candidate this year.  They're all  weird to the third power, but more than a few have corralled GOP nominations to run for the House, and one for the Senate.  These folks have no sense of history or even everyday reality.  That's how far the Trump Train has run down the track.  So what happens when they start arguing for their own country? I, for one, might be good with that, if their "country" is some place not near me, though West Virginia is both close and quite likely open to the idea.

[pbrower2a]

(07-19-2020, 04:25 PM)TnT Wrote: My concern is that Trump is only the symptom.  I have some conservative friends who, when I ask them why they like (or liked) Trump, say, "I like that he tells it like it is."

However, like many conservatives, they are not much interested in drilling into issues or figuring out what makes something make sense or not.  Bumper stickers.  Black and white.

Update (aside from "Trump lost"): Bumper stickers, thirty-second ads, slogans, yard signs, and banners don't inform. They largely consolidate positions that people already have or attempt to befuddle or dispirit the other side.

Trump does not tell it like it is; he tells people what they want to believe with words whose purpose may have some other meaning. That, folks, is lying.  

Quote:Thus, when I ask, "What is IT that he tells it like, that you like?"  Blank stares.  Then, some will bring up "political correctness."  One friend of mine used the example of janitors being wanted to be called "Custodial Engineers," or some such thing.  Then of course I ask them to give me an example of Political Correctness that does NOT consist of someone criticizing someone else for being too sensitive.

 
I dislike euphemisms except for sex (children must be shielded from it). I know that many people are superstitious about death, but "passed away" for "died" is often inappropriate. Violent death (and this includes deaths from vehicle collisions, fires, falls, industrial accidents, trees falling upon them, or being killed in military action, strictly speaking is not "passing away". "Grandma passed away from cancer" does not mean the same as "Cousin Suzie was thrown by a horse".

Euphemisms hide stuff. Maybe at best people think that others can't quite accept hearing certain things. Why should we hide crime, drug addiction, alcoholism, poverty, disability, madness, and stupidity?

President Trump made one of the most unfortunate statements in American politics when he said after someone in a protest was run over and killed (Heather Heyer did not "pass away"!) that there are good people on both sides. Just tell some fire chief that "there are good people on both sides"... on arson. 

Quote:Here's how I diagnose this.  Trump's idiot savant talent is his ability to bullshit.  He's really good at it.  His overt and covert statements about the underclass that he needs to have, appeal to probably 30-40% of our population.  They're not dumb.  They can hear the occult and not-so-occult racism in his rants.  They can hear that they have been vicitmized by the "Other."  This is not even controversial - it can be demonstrated just by listening to and quoting what the man says, over and over again.

Consider his only means of making a reliable income: leasing overpriced apartments. Once one starts renting in some place, one tends to stay. Moving is tricky, and Trump can raise rents practically at will at the end of any term. If anyone thinks he is getting fleeced, then someone else will pay the price that Trump Properties demands. He has people  right by the (part of anatomy withheld, as it has different names for male and female versions). So long as the economy is doing well, a renter has no meaningful choice. Pay up or leave. A renter may have more of a choice in some dying Ohio city (basically just about anything but Columbus).Donald Trump is a salesman above all else, which most businessmen really are  until they make the deal.

Trump does something called puffing, which is to laud something and say how great something is. If you are a car salesman you do not want to get someone to buy some bare-bones econobox car; you want to sell "luxury". Thus "that car is a fashion statement" and "think of all the great places you can go in that car". You want to sell pricey options that give you a bigger commission... and that is the only reason to be a car salesperson. It's all money, but you must pretend that the customer is getting more than the object sold or leased. 

Most of our Presidents are either attorneys or soldiers by training. One cannot shade words when discussing law, as practically every word in civil or criminal law has a distinct meaning, as in Black's Dictionary of Law. Ambiguity is not good for legal practice or jurisprudence. Military officers have their honor codes from the academies -- all basically "Do not lie, cheat or steal; do not tolerate lying, cheating, or stealing by others". Trump has been exposed to neither. If he can shade a word to get a desired result, then he so does.   

Quote:So what do we do as a country?  How can we continue to live together?  The know-nothings, the anti-science, the anti-education, the evangelistic "christians," the folks who believe in angels, a flat earth, global conspiracies, and the Protocols of the Zion.  These folks are our fellow citizens.  They're not going away.  We have to live with them.  They have to live with us.

If you can't win them over, then try for their children. Their children deserve better than that! 

Quote:Finally, once the game of Lose-Lose begins, there's no choice any more.  Folks who are inclined to play Win-Win, or even Win-Lose don't get to do that.  Base survival means that once we're playing Lose-Lose, it's either fight until it's over - that's where everyone is basically a Loser - or roll over and die.

People whose good habits go into hiatus can return to them when the possibility returns -- if they personally survive. Crises do not last forever. 

Quote:  
We are a tragically weakened country.  Trump and his corrupt lickspittles have cut many of the ties that bind together legitimate institutions and have discredited most civilized values.  We are not immune to natural law.  Weakened enough, we will become easy pickings.

We will soon discover that the  social fabric that Trump and his minions has degraded  is much more resilient than many think. It has existed for a very long time and for very good reason. Once Trump is off the scene, then what excuse do we have for failing to rectify America?