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(05-04-2020, 02:04 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]Maybe, we will have significantly advanced in our overall capabilities by the time the 2nd wave hits and it won't be that big of a deal. Hint. The crisis shouldn't be a time for trial and error these days. In the past yes but not today.

The crisis should be a time of trial and error.  It should not be a time for idle hope or wishful thinking.  It should not be a time of hoping we will return to the unraveling which will last forever.  

There is part of the population that wants to pretend no problem exists, and the problem will just go away with no dire changes.  They have believed in small government, low taxes, low domestic spending, and that if you believe hard enough that problems don’t exist they will magically disappear.  I have been saying for decades that such world views and values will not change until there is some major disaster.  I commonly give Atlanta in the Civil War or Hiroshima in World War II as examples.  How many deaths will COVID 19 have to cause before it will have the required effect?  How much will it take to open eyes determinedly closed?

Determine a plan to go back to your job or any job safely.  Apply to your governor to put that plan in place.  See if he will let you.  Don't just gripe and wish.  To sit and do nothing is to have people die.

I don’t anticipate a return to the past.  There are problems that will in time bite you in the rear if you don’t solve them.  These problems have been proven to exist.  Wishful thinking won’t make them go away.
(05-04-2020, 10:42 AM)David Horn Wrote: [ -> ]
(05-03-2020, 04:50 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]Would you rather die by starving to death alone in your home while waiting for a cure or would you prefer to be shot while scavenging by a neighbor or prefer to have to REALLY beg for a living vs the easier cozy blue version of begging/self pity that you do from the seat of your pants like you do here. Financially speaking, I know Michigan wasn't even close to being in the same financial shape as Minnesota was in before COVID19 showed up.

You assume that without work, we all starve. That's only true if money to buy food is unavailable, and, as I noted earlier, money is fake anyway.  Did you get the fake money infusion to your bank account from the first stimulus bill?  We got ours.  That money didn't exist until it was delivered to our accounts. More can be on the way for as long as it takes. We'll put the economy back in place once the price of having it doesn't require people dying.
Who kills and processes the cow or pig or chicken or fish that you buy at the grocery store? A worker who makes money doing it. As a matter of fact, there is a paid worker involved in every aspect of food production. So, what happens when a significant portion of every day food consumption comes to a complete halt? You've seen the losses or temporary relief to keep everyone above water as liberals spout their mouth about people reminding liberals in government offices that TIME FUCKING MATTERS TO THEM. Do you know what you deserve, you don't deserve shit at this point.

I'm good, I'll go in on an extra cow with a neighbor or two and buy one from local cattle rancher who has more than usual and then have the local butcher carve it up like the old days. I told you that I'm familiar with exurban and the exurban lifestyle and you keep telling me that you have a hard time understanding and fitting in with the locals . The  Exurban area is about twenty minutes away from my suburban home. My community has some exurban too but they only have horses and goats that they view as pets.
(05-04-2020, 11:58 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]
(05-04-2020, 10:20 AM)David Horn Wrote: [ -> ]Most conservatives are part of the 'Live free or die' crowd.  That's an individualist position.  What the Koreans did was about as communitarian as it gets.  I haven't seen any of the Progressives out in the streets demanding that the rules be dropped so they can do as they please.  I've seen plenty from the right, though.

Like you said, the South Koreans were better prepared and more experienced than us and their culture as a whole is probably more strict and less wishy washy and less concerned about peoples feelings. I saw a bunch of them sitting in seats and wearing their masks while watching a world figure skating event in Soul during a pandemic just before things went nuts over here. So, why aren't we watching baseball right now? Aren't there enough masks yet? Don't we have enough factories to manufacture enough masks HERE or don't we have enough manufactured materials HERE to manufacture them either? What's up, where did our manufacturing go? I haven't been to a Twins baseball game for over twenty years. The last time that I went to a game, I watched a Twins pitcher throw a no hitter. How do you top that? You probably don't, so you stop going to games and watch them play ball at home instead.

Masks aren't enough if the prevalence of the disease is too high for protection, and we let it get there. Also, note: Asians tend to wear masks if they are ill, regardless of the background state of affairs. When I was stationed in Japan over 50 years ago, mask wearing was no less common than it is today. Asian societies tend to be communitarian by long-held custom. That's not the case here.
(05-04-2020, 12:57 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]
(05-04-2020, 11:05 AM)David Horn Wrote: [ -> ]FYI: the economy has been more or less stagnant for the past decade or two. That's why inflation is near zero, if it isn't negative at this point.  Who, in their right mind, would prefer a sclerotic economy to a vibrant one? Here's a hint: to get a vibrant economy, more people need more money to spend. 70% of the economy is consumer spending, after all, and your income is their spending.  So yes, Republicans are dumb -- all of them.

For your information, we haven't seen unemployment numbers like we are seeing now since the GREAT DEPRESSION. So, how much more money are the Progressives going to pay me/us to go along with their dream of a better world? I'd like to be a multi-millionaire but I would except a half million in gold? If Biden can guarantee either, I'll vote for him. Like I said, Republican voters aren't dumb and the Democratic voters that we know personally aren't dumb either. In case you aren't aware, the Bernie way was rejected by the well to do Progressives or liberal Democrats. Like I said, the Democrats are all good as long as the Democrats themselves don't have to pay. I beg to differ, the Republican voters aren't dumb and the Democratic voters aren't dumb either. So, where does that leave you and the others here?

The subsidies are there as a bridge, not a fortress. People need to meet their expenses, or bad things happen. That's not the same as making them rich. And just so you know: Blue states pay more in taxes and subsidize Red states who pay less. It's been that way forever.
(05-04-2020, 03:57 PM)David Horn Wrote: [ -> ] And just so you know: Blue states pay more in taxes and subsidize Red states who pay less.  It's been that way forever.

What if the bridge isn't long enough? Yes. I've read that many times over the years. I assume the states who contribute the most also receive the most in return with the exception of Texas.
(05-04-2020, 02:04 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]
(05-04-2020, 10:50 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]
(05-04-2020, 10:30 AM)David Horn Wrote: [ -> ]Buried in this comment is a huge dose of irony.  Yes, the Tea Party is back, expecting miracles and certainly no taxes.  We'll see how the return-to-work gig works out. I suspect that past is prologue, so the Great Return to Work will become the Great Second Wave of COVID.  What will you say them?  Should we just work and die?

The who and what do you chose to bitch about?  Nancy Pelosi and Marxism.  Well, the future of the country may come down to spending like drunken sailors (let's let the 'sailors' drink this time -- the 'Admirals' already got more than their share already), and maybe -- just maybe -- there will be an economy to restart in a year or so.

Maybe the Great Second Wave of COVID will teach people to work smart.  It should be possible to perform some functions with an absolute maximum of isolation.  Those who think the economy needs to restart should be working towards exactly how to do that safely.  If someone has a pretty good idea of how, let them give it a try.

I am also thinking now is the time to reduce the retirement age and perhaps the length of the work week.  The older people are vulnerable to the bug, and shouldn’t be out there.  There is a surplus of labor at vital jobs, and people aren’t seeking them out.  Luxuries are not going to profit just now.  Maybe people should be delivery drivers or grocery workers rather than try to sell a pretty bauble.

Think, people.  The crisis is supposed to be a time of trial and error.  So trial and error already.
Maybe, we will have significantly advanced in our overall capabilities by the time the 2nd wave hits and it won't be that big of a deal. Hint. The crisis shouldn't be a time for trial and error these days. In the past yes but not today.

 The alternative to trial and error with this plague is to do basically nothing as policy -- and let it take its lethal course, infecting everyone possible until people either recover and die. With a 5% death rate among the infected so far, that means 15 million deaths. That would traumatize America for decades  and might destabilize our system. Destabilization of our political system will not result in consequences that you will want unless you are extremely lucky.

We are rapidly (and at the rate at which Americans have been dying, we will get there tomorrow) approaching 70,000 deaths, which is a higher number of deaths than American involvement in all but three of America's wars. Next up is World War I. This is in a short time. 

Americans got impatient with LBJ when the death toll for Americans in the Vietnam War got into the low hundreds. We have had a few weeks in which we get about ten bad days of the Vietnam War for America in one day. All that prevents mass demonstrations against President Trump is paradoxically the stay-at-home orders mostly of liberal Democrats that most of us think more worth heeding than showing theatrical disdain for the President at the risk of contracting a nasty disease. On the other hand it is Trump's people who take the risk with their protests against stay-at-home orders... and they are the ones that put themselves at risk of contracting COVID-19.

Still, most of us liberals are steamed. We will be taking our anger to the voting booth in November or (ideally) mailing in our ballots.  

One  thing is certain: we will not be going back to Unraveling ways. Unraveling ways in politics, culture, and economics got us into the vile mess that we are now in. I see Americans becoming less tolerant of political failure especially when it comes with corruption and scapegoating.   

Hey, hey, Donald Trump? How many old folks did you have to dump! Considering that many of the old folks now dying are about the right age to have served in Vietnam and now face a pointless danger riskier than the North Vietnamese Army or the Vietcong... we can all chant that line, at least in thought.
(05-04-2020, 03:52 PM)David Horn Wrote: [ -> ]
(05-04-2020, 11:58 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]
(05-04-2020, 10:20 AM)David Horn Wrote: [ -> ]Most conservatives are part of the 'Live free or die' crowd.  That's an individualist position.  What the Koreans did was about as communitarian as it gets.  I haven't seen any of the Progressives out in the streets demanding that the rules be dropped so they can do as they please.  I've seen plenty from the right, though.

Like you said, the South Koreans were better prepared and more experienced than us and their culture as a whole is probably more strict and less wishy washy and less concerned about peoples feelings. I saw a bunch of them sitting in seats and wearing their masks while watching a world figure skating event in Soul during a pandemic just before things went nuts over here. So, why aren't we watching baseball right now? Aren't there enough masks yet? Don't we have enough factories to manufacture enough masks HERE or don't we have enough manufactured materials HERE to manufacture them either? What's up, where did our manufacturing go? I haven't been to a Twins baseball game for over twenty years. The last time that I went to a game, I watched a Twins pitcher throw a no hitter. How do you top that? You probably don't, so you stop going to games and watch them play ball at home instead.

Masks aren't enough if the prevalence of the disease is too high for protection, and we let it get there.  Also, note: Asians tend to wear masks if they are ill, regardless of the background state of affairs.  When I was stationed in Japan over 50 years ago, mask wearing was no less common than it is today.  Asian societies tend to be communitarian by long-held custom.  That's not the case here.

Maybe we Americans will start acting more like the Japanese and South Koreans (not to mention Chinese-Americans). In many respects that would be an improvement. Let's start with better schooling, less crime and personal violence, more attachment to classical music, greater artistic achievement... If our politics were more rational we would never have Donald Trump even getting close to being President. Irrational thought feeds unreason such as Donald Trump in political life. 

It may be simplistic, but if I am to describe the difference between Chinese, Japanese, and Korean art... Chinese art seems baroque, Japanese art Impressionist, and Korean art fauvist. Not bad!
(05-04-2020, 02:43 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]
(05-04-2020, 02:04 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]Maybe, we will have significantly advanced in our overall capabilities by the time the 2nd wave hits and it won't be that big of a deal. Hint. The crisis shouldn't be a time for trial and error these days. In the past yes but not today.

The crisis should be a time of trial and error.  It should not be a time for idle hope or wishful thinking.  It should not be a time of hoping we will return to the unraveling which will last forever.  

There is part of the population that wants to pretend no problem exists, and the problem will just go away with no dire changes.  They have believed in small government, low taxes, low domestic spending, and that if you believe hard enough that problems don’t exist they will magically disappear.  I have been saying for decades that such world views and values will not change until there is some major disaster.  I commonly give Atlanta in the Civil War or Hiroshima in World War II as examples.  How many deaths will COVID 19 have to cause before it will have the required effect?  How much will it take to open eyes determinedly closed?

Determine a plan to go back to your job or any job safely.  Apply to your governor to put that plan in place.  See if he will let you.  Don't just gripe and wish.  To sit and do nothing is to have people die.

I don’t anticipate a return to the past.  There are problems that will in time bite you in the rear if you don’t solve them.  These problems have been proven to exist.  Wishful thinking won’t make them go away.
Are you looking at as the culmination or the beginning/trigger? Bob, did American life stop after Pearl Harbor or did Americans still have social gatherings, sports events, go to movies, go out to diner, celebrate Christmas together, watch parades on 4th July, go to bars and so forth during the entire war that followed. COVID19 is a short term problem that's already in the process of ending and we are going through the worst of it right now. The first wave will be the worst and we will be ready and fully prepared for the 2nd come fall. The trial and error is underway and will produce a variety of treatments based on and eventually a vaccine. We want our lives back. I anticipate a return to the past and I expect to be able to be eating at a restaurant with the family or a bar with friends again. The economic aftermath/fallout will be what the crisis will be mainly about in my opinion.
(05-04-2020, 10:36 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]
(05-04-2020, 09:28 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]
(05-04-2020, 01:43 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]
(05-03-2020, 09:45 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]We could probably start a war within China or back independence for Hong Kong or convince the G7 to vote to ix nay China or do all of them. China probably isn't  going to nuke itself.

I doubt it.  The evidence that China launched a bio war on itself is more trumped up than the evidence that Saddam had WMDs.  There is only so much you can do when you have a reputation as a liar.
You have to be able keep up with the information these days. No one here is saying it was a biological attack at this point except China these days. Right now, China is blaming us for a biological attack attack on them. As far as I know, COVID19 was the result of an accident that took place in a r medical testing facility. We already ruled out a biological attack.

I don’t bother to keep up with all the rumors and conspiracy theories.  Governments lie.  The press has its agendas.  Partisans believe whatever the makes them more partisan.  I’d rather spend my time chasing the odd exception where someone is actually telling the truth.
You should, you're the big government believer.
(05-04-2020, 10:04 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]did American life stop after Pearl Harbor or did Americans still have social gatherings, sports events, go to movies, go out to diner, celebrate Christmas together, watch parades on 4th July, go to bars and so forth during the entire war that followed.

I wouldn't mind knowing that myself.  I've asked my father, but he's taking his sweet time responding.
(05-04-2020, 10:04 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]
(05-04-2020, 02:43 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]
(05-04-2020, 02:04 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]Maybe, we will have significantly advanced in our overall capabilities by the time the 2nd wave hits and it won't be that big of a deal. Hint. The crisis shouldn't be a time for trial and error these days. In the past yes but not today.

The crisis should be a time of trial and error.  It should not be a time for idle hope or wishful thinking.  It should not be a time of hoping we will return to the unraveling which will last forever.  

There is part of the population that wants to pretend no problem exists, and the problem will just go away with no dire changes.  They have believed in small government, low taxes, low domestic spending, and that if you believe hard enough that problems don’t exist they will magically disappear.  I have been saying for decades that such world views and values will not change until there is some major disaster.  I commonly give Atlanta in the Civil War or Hiroshima in World War II as examples.  How many deaths will COVID 19 have to cause before it will have the required effect?  How much will it take to open eyes determinedly closed?

Determine a plan to go back to your job or any job safely.  Apply to your governor to put that plan in place.  See if he will let you.  Don't just gripe and wish.  To sit and do nothing is to have people die.

I don’t anticipate a return to the past.  There are problems that will in time bite you in the rear if you don’t solve them.  These problems have been proven to exist.  Wishful thinking won’t make them go away.
Are you looking at as the culmination or the beginning/trigger? Bob, did American life stop after Pearl Harbor or did Americans still have social gatherings, sports events, go to movies, go out to diner, celebrate Christmas together, watch parades on 4th July, go to bars and so forth during the entire war that followed. ....

I think the GIs danced and romanced to Glenn Miller and then went off to war, and the women went to work.
(05-04-2020, 10:04 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]Are you looking at as the culmination or the beginning/trigger? Bob, did American life stop after Pearl Harbor or did Americans still have social gatherings, sports events, go to movies, go out to diner, celebrate Christmas together, watch parades on 4th July, go to bars and so forth during the entire war that followed. COVID19 is a short term problem that's already in the process of ending and we are going through the worst of it right now. The first wave will be the worst and we will be ready and fully prepared for the 2nd come fall. The trial and error is underway and will produce a variety of treatments based on and eventually a vaccine. We want our lives back. I anticipate a return to the past and I expect to be able to be eating at a restaurant with the family or a bar with friends again. The economic aftermath/fallout will be what the crisis will be mainly about in my opinion.

My father during his lifetime refused to buy a German or Japanese car. As he saw it, they stole four years of his life. They didn’t deserve his money. He had just finished just before Pearl Harbor taking a course teaching him how to fix telephones. In the war, guess what, he wound up in the Signal Corps fixing telephones. (The course they gave him on entering the Signal Corp was the exact same course as he took in civilian life.) During his first day on the job in the army at R.O.T.C. Carnage Tech, they gave him an extra corporal’s stripe because the cadets didn’t listen to privates, and told him to go watch a Pirates game. So, yes, in some ways American life went on. He turned in his hours, then he was in the middle of a big city. Not so much after he was transferred to Italy, but still he had his chances.

But the stock market crash was different from the three military triggers and was different from the Coronavirus. Different problems effect different people and have different solutions. Do you expect each crisis to be a duplicate of one before? If crisis wars were made obsolete by nukes, were you expecting the same response as to a crisis war? Where did that come from?

You really ought to read S&H for comprehension. Past crises changed America greatly. We didn’t go back and didn’t want to go back. I am projecting that something similar will happen again.

Conservatives generally don’t want change, but guess what is to be expected in a crisis?

So, I am looking at both the beginning and the result.
(05-04-2020, 10:17 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]
(05-04-2020, 10:36 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]I don’t bother to keep up with all the rumors and conspiracy theories.  Governments lie.  The press has its agendas.  Partisans believe whatever the makes them more partisan.  I’d rather spend my time chasing the odd exception where someone is actually telling the truth.
You should, you're the big government believer.

Nah.  Various conservatives love to lie and make up conspiracy theories.  I have begun to think the White House defaults to this stuff.  Why tell the truth when you can make something up?  They are pretty much useless so I don’t bother chasing them down much.  

I see the ‘deep state’ as more typical of the government.  We got glimpses of the state department professionals in the impeachment, and the CDC professionals in the COVID 19 crises.  They have much more to focus on than conspiracy theories and lies, as do I.
(05-04-2020, 03:02 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]
(05-04-2020, 10:42 AM)David Horn Wrote: [ -> ]
(05-03-2020, 04:50 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]Would you rather die by starving to death alone in your home while waiting for a cure or would you prefer to be shot while scavenging by a neighbor or prefer to have to REALLY beg for a living vs the easier cozy blue version of begging/self pity that you do from the seat of your pants like you do here. Financially speaking, I know Michigan wasn't even close to being in the same financial shape as Minnesota was in before COVID19 showed up.

You assume that without work, we all starve. That's only true if money to buy food is unavailable, and, as I noted earlier, money is fake anyway.  Did you get the fake money infusion to your bank account from the first stimulus bill?  We got ours.  That money didn't exist until it was delivered to our accounts. More can be on the way for as long as it takes. We'll put the economy back in place once the price of having it doesn't require people dying.

Who kills and processes the cow or pig or chicken or fish that you buy at the grocery store? A worker who makes money doing it. As a matter of fact, there is a paid worker involved in every aspect of food production. So, what happens when a significant portion of every day food consumption comes to a complete halt? You've seen the losses or temporary relief to keep everyone above water as liberals spout their mouth about people reminding liberals in government offices that TIME FUCKING MATTERS TO THEM. Do you know what you deserve, you don't deserve shit at this point.

I'm good, I'll go in on an extra cow with a neighbor or two and buy one from local cattle rancher who has more than usual and then have the local butcher carve it up like the old days. I told you that I'm familiar with exurban and the exurban lifestyle and you keep telling me that you have a hard time understanding and  fitting in with the locals . The  Exurban area is about twenty minutes away from my suburban home. My community has some exurban too but they only have horses and goats that they view as pets.

We may see a change in our diet, but an end to adequate food is unlikely in the extreme.  Will there have to be a reckoning?  Of course. We are being lead by a moron who firmly believes that wishing it so will make it happen.  In less than 6 months, that will be put to a test.  If, as a nation, we decide to rehire this clown and give him free reign, your worst case scenario might be possible, though I doubt it.  I have more faith in the collective wisdom of the American people than that.

So let's assume that the clown is fired along with his toadies in Congress.  Will policies change before January 20, 2021?  I think they will, because the surviving Republicans will have seen the handwriting on the wall, and will stop being obstructionists.  Again, if that doesn't happen, then the misery continues.  But the food supply won't just evaporate.  We'll make-do until the summer if necessary, but a real plan will then be in place, because real planners will be back in vogue.
(05-04-2020, 10:30 AM)David Horn Wrote: [ -> ]
(05-03-2020, 01:26 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]Yep. The Tea Party is back. A few thousand today. A few more thousand tomorrow, a few hundred thousand more after that and so on. Who do they represent? The 10 million unemployed people who are going to need another trillion advance of free money to keep themselves, their business's and local economies afloat or pretty loose everything and watch as an entire area goes broke. So, how do you hurt/punish liberal elitists who live in Ivory Towers who don't know what it's like to held accountable or severely hurt/punished these days? What do all the elite purples and reds within the entire  country do to punish them/teach them a hard lesson about life/growing and RESPECT? Do you think Queen Nancy has ever met a real grown up? I'm not talking about her mega rich hubby who tosses money at her to shut her up and pays off her credit cards every month and buys her diamond rings and pulled the strings to get her in office and paved the way for her to be the Speaker of the House today. I'm talking about a real grown up with no emotional ties to her, her hubby, her party, her ideology or religion, her personal wealth and so forth. What would Nancy be without them? I know what I am without them and Nancy would figure that out really quick. You seem like an elitist to me. An elitist without an Ivory Tower but still an elitist of sort. Me, I'm just a purple elite who happens to be a natural leader who prefers to remain private and prefers a life of solitude. I don't know, what do you think, do you think that I could be an elitist liberal wrecking machine who intervenes and basically destroys radical liberal forums that promote hate speech and racism and Marxist revolution?

Buried in this comment is a huge dose of irony.  Yes, the Tea Party is back, expecting miracles and certainly no taxes.  We'll see how the return-to-work gig works out. I suspect that past is prologue, so the Great Return to Work will become the Great Second Wave of COVID.  What will you say them?  Should we just work and die?

The who and what do you chose to bitch about?  Nancy Pelosi and Marxism.  Well, the future of the country may come down to spending like drunken sailors (let's let the 'sailors' drink this time -- the 'Admirals' already got more than their share already), and maybe -- just maybe -- there will be an economy to restart in a year or so.

The Tea Party never had much appeal to youth. It is aging in place, and the actuarial reality behind any aging constituency or market is that it must recruit younger constituents or customers or offer a new set of old people the need for the same cause or item of commerce. Funeral homes obviously do not get repeat customers. Nursing homes depend upon replacing those who die in them with new patients. I remember when nursing homes were full of people born in the 1890's. Today their typical new inmate was born in the 1930's or 1940's. People in my age group -- people born in the 1950's -- are next. Considering how miserable life looks in them, I would rather have one fatal coronary or stroke and be done with it.

Now let's look at the once-impressive department stores that became anchors of shopping centers. GI's and the Silent went to Sears, JC Penney, Montgomery-Ward or some regional chain (Dillard's, Goldwater's, Sanger-Harris, Belk's, Marshall-Field, Hudson's, Bullock's, May, etc.) and the kids went off to boutique stores that sold books or records -- when "CD" either meant "Civil Defense" or "certificate of deposit" because the compact disc had yet to be developed. Or, of course, to merchants that had the youth-pleasing clothes. "X", brought in a grandfather's Lincoln, often went to the food  court with a "Hamilton" and spent a "Lincoln" in the video arcades. The clientele for the big department stores  died off without replenishment. Macy's bought out Marshall-Field to get its customers after Marshall-Field had bought out Hudson's. Back in the 1980's. I remember seeing a demographic about the giant department store: that its average customer was then 59. Fifty-nine. In the mid-1980's that was the GI-Silent cusp. A hint about that demographic: that was roughly Doris Day and Paul Newman. That age group was good customers. "59" is not such desirable customers as it was in the 1980's, and it quit going to the big department stores except for "vulture sales".

Trump is the pure expression of the ideology of the Tea Party -- but that is an aging constituency. It has no youth appeal. Figure that about 1.5% of the electorate, predominantly over age 55, dies off in a normal year.The new voters, as shown in 2018, are almost entirely under 40. The voters dying off are on the whole about 5% more Republican than Democratic; the younger voters supplanting them are now about 20% more Democratic than Republican. The Tea Party is not replenishing itself with young toilers who see themselves overworked and underpaid, who are more concerned with their paychecks than with taxes, and who see Tea Party politics as cranky at best. Just from 2016 the population shift from the Silent, Boomers, and early-wave X to the Millennial generation in the electorate is enough to ensure that Trump loses Michigan, Pennsylvania, Wisconsin... and his re-election bid. That would be enough to turn a Republican majority in the House into a Democratic majority in the House, except that such already happened in 2018 for other reasons. Initials of that cause are D, J, and T.

But wait -- it gets worse. The Tea Party still went out to vote as strongly as ever, at least among those still able to vote (that is, still living). It still believes, and it is not losing supporters except to death and debility. It is not replacing itself in the electorate. It has no youth appeal. It is not rational enough to appeal to the Millennial generation. 

The Tea Party never left. It has simply aged in place, and it could be getting increasingly irrelevant as time passes. It cannot appeal to people who distrust heirs, financiers, landlords, and executives to look out for the interests of people heavily in hock for student loans so that they can hold jobs in call centers and paying exorbitant rent to live near the call centers instead of working in some food-processing plant that seems a revival of Upton Sinclair's The Jungle.  


Something makes 2020 an abnormal year. We have the sort of plague, an often-lethal respiratory infection, that we thought that people were exempt from in advanced industrial societies. It seems to have a death rate of about 5%, and it spreads by exploiting what most of us have been doing without a perception of danger. Business travel, commuting by mass conveyance, congregating in groups, attending religious services, going out to dinner and a movie, or simply being out on a bustling street can give us a disease about as deadly as combat. For Vietnam veterans, COVID-19 is now a more dangerous enemy than the NVA or the Vietcong ever were.

COVID-19 is killing off the elderly and the near-old. Except when I saw four Rottweiler-sized dogs charging a door angrily while the door latch began to look  too flimsy to keep those four dogs from attacking me as if they were one tiger (four 100-pound dogs make one 400-pound tiger if those dogs confuse a Census enumerator with a burglar, and thus meat) I have never been so scared in my life. I wasn't "AIDS material", as I was neither a druggie (one good thing about Asperger's -- you cannot enjoy drug highs) nor the sort who slept with anything that moves -- but we are all COVID-19 material. But at least the prospect of being killed by a bear or Big Cat was over once I was in my car and driving away. I can't drive away from COVID-19. If I should contract COVID-19 and drive, then I can really hurt people by spreading the disease around.
(05-05-2020, 09:06 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]The Tea Party never had much appeal to youth...

I agree pretty much with what you say.  The moderates who have been swinging back and forth in the unravelling are also swinging again.  The idea that you should leave neither party in power to long, let neither ideology take hold in power, may end as the Republicans have totally discredited themselves.  Their lack of serving the people, their service to the elites and corporations, their unwillingness to confront problems, have become obvious.  The Tea Party is shrinking.  It is quite possible we will have a crisis heart plus high and awakening making up a new progressive era.  Even the self centered greed of the next unraveling should be built on the baseline of the culture the civics are theoretically about to create.

But right now the conservatives are still expecting a return to the last unraveling.  There have not yet been enough deaths for many of them to embrace a new normal.  

Never fear.  The conservatives are working on it.
CNN has an article that presents Hong Kong as suppressing the virus by defending the borders.  They also try to test and isolate to catch a comeback, but have gone back to a city wide shutdown.  There seems to be no mention of the coffin apartments and little concern with residents with the disease.  The emphasis is with defending the borders from foreign infection.

Obviously, it is too late for a border defense approach to work in the US.  There are too many cases among the locals.

They are also worried about the pro democracy demonstrations restarting and interacting with the virus response.
(05-04-2020, 03:02 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]
(05-04-2020, 10:42 AM)David Horn Wrote: [ -> ]
(05-03-2020, 04:50 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]Would you rather die by starving to death alone in your home while waiting for a cure or would you prefer to be shot while scavenging by a neighbor or prefer to have to REALLY beg for a living vs the easier cozy blue version of begging/self pity that you do from the seat of your pants like you do here. Financially speaking, I know Michigan wasn't even close to being in the same financial shape as Minnesota was in before COVID19 showed up.

You assume that without work, we all starve. That's only true if money to buy food is unavailable, and, as I noted earlier, money is fake anyway.  Did you get the fake money infusion to your bank account from the first stimulus bill?  We got ours.  That money didn't exist until it was delivered to our accounts. More can be on the way for as long as it takes. We'll put the economy back in place once the price of having it doesn't require people dying.
Who kills and processes the cow or pig or chicken or fish that you buy at the grocery store? A worker who makes money doing it. As a matter of fact, there is a paid worker involved in every aspect of food production. So, what happens when a significant portion of every day food consumption comes to a complete halt? You've seen the losses or temporary relief to keep everyone above water as liberals spout their mouth about people reminding liberals in government offices that TIME FUCKING MATTERS TO THEM. Do you know what you deserve, you don't deserve shit at this point.

I'm good, I'll go in on an extra cow with a neighbor or two and buy one from local cattle rancher who has more than usual and then have the local butcher carve it up like the old days. I told you that I'm familiar with exurban and the exurban lifestyle and you keep telling me that you have a hard time understanding and  fitting in with the locals . The  Exurban area is about twenty minutes away from my suburban home. My community has some exurban too but they only have horses and goats that they view as pets.

What do you think, Classic, about a president and admin who after the senate passed 2.2 trillion dollars to tide all of these people over on a 96-0 vote, who then dillies and dallies and makes sure that most of these people did not get what was voted for them to get?

"Big government" is supposed to take care of these people, as well as imposing the quarantine restrictions that need to be imposed on them through no fault of their own.
I have for some time been saying that a grievous shock is needed by the loosing side in a crisis to get them to at least pretend to change values.  I have lately started to quote Hiroshima as one of those shocks.  This gave me a thought to look a few things up.

Hirosima.  About 100,000 deaths.  COVID 19.  70,990 US deaths and counting.
(05-05-2020, 11:09 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]
(05-05-2020, 09:06 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]The Tea Party never had much appeal to youth...

I agree pretty much with what you say.  The moderates who have been swinging back and forth in the unravelling are also swinging again.  The idea that you should leave neither party in power to long, let neither ideology take hold in power, may end as the Republicans have totally discredited themselves.  Their lack of serving the people, their service to the elites and corporations, their unwillingness to confront problems, have become obvious.  The Tea Party is shrinking.  It is quite possible we will have a crisis heart plus high and awakening making up a new progressive era.  Even the self centered greed of the next unraveling should be built on the baseline of the culture the civics are theoretically about to create.

But right now the conservatives are still expecting a return to the last unraveling.  There have not yet been enough deaths for many of them to embrace a new normal.  

Never fear.  The conservatives are working on it.
Are we now like the closing pitcher in a baseball game facing the team’s most feared slugger(s) in the bottom of the ninth with game on the line?