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(10-07-2020, 09:37 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]
(10-07-2020, 05:19 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]We don't care if you supposedly "know" you are Americans either. And it's very clear that you haven't the slightest idea what "America" means. And we also know that you guys don't think. You just react from herd insti
The fuck we don't, we think for a living while you guys find ways to live off the same group/tribe. It too bad that you you don't know what an American is or what their about  or what America means or means to us at this point in your life. You're one of the dumbest people that I've ever met and I've met a lot of people.

Time to log off the internet. Personal attacks like this aren't ok.
(10-07-2020, 09:37 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]
(10-07-2020, 05:19 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]We don't care if you supposedly "know" you are Americans either. And it's very clear that you haven't the slightest idea what "America" means. And we also know that you guys don't think. You just react from herd instinct.

The (expletive deleted) we don't, we think for a living while you guys find ways to live off the same group/tribe. It too bad that you you don't know what an American is or what their about  or what America means or means to us at this point in your life. You're one of the dumbest people that I've ever met and I've met a lot of people.

Take a vacation from this site, please. You are getting angrier and less in control. 

Can't you do what I'm planning to do, which is to take a trip to see the excellent fall foliage of the season?
(10-07-2020, 11:18 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]
(10-07-2020, 09:37 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]
(10-07-2020, 05:19 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]We don't care if you supposedly "know" you are Americans either. And it's very clear that you haven't the slightest idea what "America" means. And we also know that you guys don't think. You just react from herd instinct.

The fuck we don't, we think for a living while you guys find ways to live off the same group/tribe. It too bad that you you don't know what an American is or what their about  or what America means or means to us at this point in your life. You're one of the dumbest people that I've ever met and I've met a lot of people.

Take a vacation from this site, please. You are getting angrier and less in control. 

Can't you do what I'm planning to do, which is to take a trip to see the excellent fall foliage of the season?

I think he probably needs to do that, and I am getting tougher on him too.

Mr. Classic, you haven't met me. Writing on a cyber message board and exchanging views in print is not a way to get to know anyone. There is so much more to us than words on a screen.

It is so clear, Classic, that you don't know what an American is. I've asked you to define this many times, and you are unable to do so. For your side, it is just a slogan and a symbol with which to rally sheep.
(10-07-2020, 09:37 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]
(10-07-2020, 05:19 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]We don't care if you supposedly "know" you are Americans either. And it's very clear that you haven't the slightest idea what "America" means. And we also know that you guys don't think. You just react from herd insti
The (expletive deleted) we don't, we think for a living while you guys find ways to live off the same group/tribe. It too bad that you you don't know what an American is or what their about  or what America means or means to us at this point in your life. You're one of the dumbest people that I've ever met and I've met a lot of people.

To those who are familiar with dictionaries, most words have several definitions.  You figure out which one is intended through context.  With ‘American’ we have Classic unable to communicate if he cannot redefine his own personal definition.  It seems obvious there is more than one such.

The WEIRD / Tribal distinction seems as prevalent as any to distinguish between what Classic and the various blue folk are talking about.  The red, rural, Cavalier, Republican perspective is of a group of people who share certain racial traits and feeling of kinship.  They believe America exists for the benefit of their particular group.  The blue, urban, Roundhead, Democratic perspective is a bunch of people who share certain ideas.  Unfortunately, some of the ideas suggest the group should not exist or have power.

I am doubtful that so long as Classic and many other people are locked into a particular perception of ’their’ group existing, they will reject the fact than certain ideas holding all are equal, that all are one.

I don’t know if this is the basic distinction, but at some basic level the two factions in holding conflicting perspectives are talking past each other.
(10-07-2020, 09:59 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]
(10-07-2020, 08:56 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]Do you associate MLK with armed thugs, rioting, looting, destruction of property, using intimidation (physical, emotional, symbolism or mere presence) and violence as a means to persuade people and achieve political goals? I don't but do you? If you don't, why do you view Black Lives Matter as being compatible. You don't seem to understand that there's two sides to Black Lives Matter and all you seem to hear about is the good side and you don't seem to see or hear about the bad side of Black Lives Matter. You're not alone there's a group of basketball team owner's who made the same mistake as you. I've seen both. MLK stuck with his core American principles/values and succeeded because he refused to associate and be associated with radical Left Wing groups like Black Lives Matter.

I don’t.  I have a bunch of motivations which I have repeated ad nausium but which you are determined not to hear.  Black Lives Matter, Antifa, the looters, the Boogaloo Boys all have very different motivations.  You seem determined to confuse them.  More than a few individuals have mixed motivations.  One of the guys arrested recently claimed to be Antifa, a Boogaloo Bois and part of a militia all at once.  All that told me is that should not be pigeon holed, or perhaps the boogaloo can be pushed forward by claiming affiliation with the left and the right.

As an ideologue committed to one side it is prudent for you to confuse your understanding of the situation, to straw man the opposition.  I have similar problems with other conservatives.  They have problems countering real progressive arguments, so they invent fake motivations for imitation progressives and argue against their inventions.  Your own asking of a question that you have asked many times before, that I have answered many times before, is par for the course.  You repeatedly ignore the response and continue to argue with your imagination.  This style of fake argument without listening eats up far too much of the discourse here.

As I remember the time, there were looters and violent racist cops as well as Martin Luther King’s people and Malcom X’s people in the 1960s too.  It wasn’t as simplistic as you try to make it.  Martin Luther King made the lasting change, but not the whole change.  Black Lives Matter will make one more incremental improvement once the people get a chance to speak.  Another round of limiting racism may be required generations hence.

I remember one American Studies class when I was back in high school, the day after a race riot.  It would have been around 1970.  There was a cheerleader table, a jock table, a yearbook staff table, and a misfit table.  The misfits, my table. were the only mixed gender table.  On the day after the race riot, there were two other misfits, both ladies, close friends with each other, who both attended and were part of the riot.  They soon came to dominate the teacher led attempt to talk about the grave division in the country.  Unfortunately, both told with great glee about how much fun they had punching and pulling hair of the people with different skin colors.  As they described it from their participant’s point of view, it was less a horrible thing, more a good time had by all.

Of course, the two were very white and very black.  After the riot, they climbed into the same car and drove home together, exchanging notes gleefully.  The next day they confused the cheerleaders, jocks and yearbook people to no end.

The major lesson learned was not to take too seriously some of the people who carry around supposed racial xenophobia.  They just like to have a good time brawling.  Your love of clucking like a chicken is read the same way.
I listen by reading what you say and directly responding to what you say and so forth. You should be able to figure that out vs accusing me of not listening. You're problem isn't me not listening. Your problem IS me listening and directly responding to you. If you don't take racial xenophobia serious as you say then why are you committed to using it so much these days. I understand that racism still has value on the Democratic side. I'd say it's pretty hard to deny it at this point. But, you can sugar coat it if you want It's not a matter of me not listening.

To you, I cluck like a chicken because that's all you can see and go by in this cozy blue environment. In real life, you'd have all kinds of other stuff pertaining to me, You'd have my personality, my wits, my knowledge, my age, my experience and my style which I'm able to adjust that you'd have to contend with that you don't have to contend with here. To me, you tend to squawk like a Liberal and tend to accuse like a Liberal but you do show that you have more sense and a better understanding of Americans than the others at times.
I think one side, so clearly represented by Pence tonight, wants to hold back the changes in society over the last 60 to 90 years and make America great again, meaning the way they liked it: more uniform in race and religion, more male dominated, more sexually closeted, more preferential to the wealthy, more abusive to those perceived as weak, more straight in their style of living, more self-reliant as they see it, more restrictive about who can vote, more militaristic, more about the business of America being business regardless of who gets hurt, and more willing to sacrifice our environment to the dirty energy industry.

Another side, somewhat embodied by Kamala Harris, wants to continue the arc toward justice whose foundations were erected in the progressive movements which began 120 years ago, 80-90 years ago and 50-60 years ago, as well as at the founding of the republic in the age of revolution. Since I am on that side, I will call it "our side." Our side wants a functioning and not a stalemated government, as well as individual and entrepreneurial activity, that addresses problems and creates a better world for all. We want equal respect, justice and opportunity for people of many and diverse races, religions, genders and sexual orientations. We want to unleash our personal creativity, fulfilling relationships, and the unfolding of human potential and higher consciousness on all levels, so repressed by some of our ancient authoritarian traditions. We want more democracy, more opportunity for the less fortunate, more science and freedom of thought, more action to save our environment and climate, more dedication to building peace instead of the military and a gun-obsessed society, and an end to the trickle-down libertarian-economics ideology dominating our country, so that repealing needed regulations and taxes are not falsely held up as boosters of "job creaters," when in fact this neo-liberal philosophy creates a banana republic.

As the need for change becomes ever more pressing, and the power of the dominant status quo becomes threatened, the two sides, and the parties that more-or-less represent them, have become more polarized. That always happens in a 4T as the need for decisions becomes more pressing. There are a number of folks too who are a mixture of the two sides to some extent or another, and some of them feel caught in the middle of a squeeze. But these are times called a fourth turning, whose nature it is for neglected issues to be forced, and a national decision is to be made about how to move forward. And the forward side has always won. Our side must win, therefore, because ours is the forward side, and theirs is the side of defending America as it was. What emerges from this decade may be like a different country from what it was in 2008.

Important decisions must be made in this 4T, substantially favoring our side over the other. But the conflict, the contest, the political game, whatever you call it, goes on. Reactions will recur again, and still more progress will break out again, and new ideas and cultures will emerge again. More decisions on lesser scales will happen as the saeculum begins its next cycle, and as a new consensus develops around the winning side-- and as, possibly, some of the victories in the 4T are put back in the closet in the first turning, only to re-emerge again sooner or later. The arc of history is long, but it bends toward justice for all of life and spirit.
I wish Kamala had said, "if you guys continue to block everything we do to improve the lives of the people, block every measure that we pass, throw out every law that ensures fairness and justice, continue to bring back the harmful past while we are trying to build back and build better, YOU BET we will reduce the filibuster and reform the Court and put on more justices there to make up for the ones that you and your side so ruthlessly blocked for two years, by not doing your constitutional duty to advise and consent, but just bringing the nation's entire business to a screeching halt on every last thing we need to do! If you can take down the filibuster for approval of supreme court justices by a minority not elected by the people but by an outdated system, we can reform the Court, as we are just as legally enabled to do as were the ruthless blocking and take-downs were on your side."
(10-08-2020, 12:50 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]I think one side, so clearly represented by Pence tonight, wants to hold back the changes in society over the last 60 to 90 years and make America great again, meaning the way they liked it: more uniform in race and religion, more male dominated, more sexually closeted, more preferential to the wealthy, more abusive to those perceived as weak, more straight in their style of living, more self-reliant as they see it, more restrictive about who can vote, more militaristic, more about the business of America being business regardless of who gets hurt, and more willing to sacrifice our environment to the dirty energy industry.

The problem with that is the following:

(1) the Good Old Days weren't all that good
(2) the Good Old Days are no longer a valid destination

What most people miss about the "good old days" are their youth, missed opportunities or blunders that one could avoid if one knew enough to avoid them, and lower costs in some things (like housing), and some of the certainties that no longer valid. Wouldn't we all like to get our youth back and do things differently with the knowledge that we now have? Many of us would make different choices in education and career. That's before I even discuss knowing when to buy into stock markets and sell out... The arrow of time goes but one way, and if it went some other way things would be incredibly crazy.  


Quote:Another side, somewhat embodied by Kamala Harris, wants to continue the arc toward justice whose foundations were erected in the progressive movements which began 120 years ago, 80-90 years ago and 50-60 years ago, as well as at the founding of the republic in the age of revolution. Since I am on that side, I will call it "our side." Our side wants a functioning and not a stalemated government, as well as individual and entrepreneurial activity, that addresses problems and creates a better world for all. We want equal respect, justice and opportunity for people of many and diverse races, religions, genders and sexual orientations. We want to unleash our personal creativity, fulfilling relationships, and the unfolding of human potential and higher consciousness on all levels, so repressed by some of our ancient authoritarian traditions. We want more democracy, more opportunity for the less fortunate, more science and freedom of thought, more action to save our environment and climate, more dedication to building peace instead of the military and a gun-obsessed society, and an end to the trickle-down libertarian-economics ideology dominating our country, so that repealing needed regulations and taxes are not falsely held up as boosters of "job creators," when in fact this neo-liberal philosophy creates a banana republic.

Neoliberalism is a bill of goods. For many of us it is the ZONK.  On Let's Make A Deal  one gets to see the result quickly: it can a be car... or a collection of old, smelly shoes. With neoliberalism we are told that the rich and powerful can better manage assets and opportunities than we do because we are inadequate to take such a role. We must defer to the desire of those elites because such allows us a super-prosperity that will somehow make things better for us than will our own efforts. 

Such has been the claim of every exploitative elite: that only a few can deserve opportunity, and the rest of Humanity must trust the good intentions of that elite. 


Quote:As the need for change becomes ever more pressing, and the power of the dominant status quo becomes threatened, the two sides, and the parties that more-or-less represent them, have become more polarized. That always happens in a 4T as the need for decisions becomes more pressing. There are a number of folks too who are a mixture of the two sides to some extent or another, and some of them feel caught in the middle of a squeeze. But these are times called a fourth turning, whose nature it is for neglected issues to be forced, and a national decision is to be made about how to move forward. And the forward side has always won. Our side must win, therefore, because ours is the forward side, and theirs is the side of defending America as it was. What emerges from this decade may be like a different country from what it was in 2008.

Human happiness is the measure of virtue. To be sure our senses can deceive us, as poisons can taste sweet. But even a core tenet of economics applies: marginal utility. $1000 to a very poor person can usually bring more happiness to that poor person than $1000 in a tax cut to some tycoon for whom $1000 means little. Neoliberalism has concentrated wealth and power into few people and has even ensured that that much of America be economically ravaged. Although there is more wealth, more people are destitute. More places are economic wrecks. People have fewer choices of employment.

We reject neoliberalism or we end up with a high-tech fascism, something resembling the Planet Mongo on Flash Gordon serials.  

Quote:Important decisions must be made in this 4T, substantially favoring our side over the other. But the conflict, the contest, the political game, whatever you call it, goes on. Reactions will recur again, and still more progress will break out again, and new ideas and cultures will emerge again. More decisions on lesser scales will happen as the saeculum begins its next cycle, and as a new consensus develops around the winning side-- and as, possibly, some of the victories in the 4T are put back in the closet in the first turning, only to re-emerge again sooner or later. The arc of history is long, but it bends toward justice for all of life and spirit.

We have endured a reactionary trend that tantalizes us with the taste of some modest reversal -- only for the reactionary trend to come back even harder after a taste of a little relaxation.
(10-08-2020, 12:33 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]I listen by reading what you say and directly responding to what you say and so forth. You should be able to figure that out vs accusing me of not listening. You're problem isn't me not listening. Your problem IS me listening and directly responding to you. If you don't take racial xenophobia serious as you say then why are you committed to using it so much these days. I understand that racism still has value on the Democratic side. I'd say it's pretty hard to deny it at this point. But, you can sugar coat it if you want It's not a matter of me not listening.

To you, I cluck like a chicken because that's all you can see and go by in this cozy blue environment. In real life, you'd have all kinds of other stuff pertaining to me, You'd have my personality, my wits, my knowledge, my age, my experience and my style which I'm able to adjust that you'd have to contend with that you don't have to contend with here. To me, you tend to squawk like a Liberal and tend to accuse like a Liberal but you do show that you have more sense and a better understanding of Americans  than the others at times.

You don’t listen. I have explained blue motivations as a blue person many times, but you ignore it. This is only one example. You have created and stuck with your own perspective and do not budge from it.

Why do you hide your personality, wits, knowledge, age and style? Most of what I see is empty threats which you have never followed through with. The result is naturally to view you as a obsessed with violence chicken. If you wish to be viewed as knowledgeable, reference serious works. If you wish to be taken as mature, stop acting like a petulant child.
The AP has the next presidential debate cancelled by Trump. The debate commission wants to hold a virtual debate, each candidate and the moderator in their own studio. This was unacceptable to Trump. It would also allow the moderator to cut off the off candidate when the other has the floor. I was for this sort of arrangement even before Trump caught the bug.

It sort of reflect my thoughts on the whole COVUS response. There is a push to return to normal as opposed to making intelligent responses to adjust to the new threat.
(10-07-2020, 07:51 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]
(10-07-2020, 07:32 AM)User3451 Wrote: [ -> ]I think Trump has finally crossed the line with voters. What was he thinking? 

Biden will be up nationally by 20 points or more next week.

I have a feeling the fireworks are just getting started and Trump may scorch the earth and salt the fields on his way out the door.

No bet on the 20%.

If Trump does start going scorched earth, I think he would lose the cabinet and the Republicans in the senate.  Either could remove him, either temporarily or permanently.  They have to at least pretend to continue their careers.  A blatant attempt to harm that which he was sworn to protect would turn even a Republican.

No bet on the GOP pols doing anything to stop Trump, even in the face of a monumental defeat.  What Trump created in 2016 is now the GOP, and they know it.  They're either all-in, or out for good.
(10-08-2020, 01:16 AM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]I wish Kamala had said, "if you guys continue to block everything we do to improve the lives of the people, block every measure that we pass, throw out every law that ensures fairness and justice, continue to bring back the harmful past while we are trying to build back and build better, YOU BET we will reduce the filibuster and reform the Court and put on more justices there to make up for the ones that you and your side so ruthlessly blocked for two years, by not doing your constitutional duty to advise and consent, but just bringing the nation's entire business to a screeching halt on every last thing we need to do! If you can take down the filibuster for approval of supreme court justices by a minority not elected by the people but by an outdated system, we can reform the Court, as we are just as legally enabled to do as were the ruthless blocking and take-downs were on your side."

I have to agree.  The Milquetoast Party will never win the hearts and minds of middle America, because middle America doesn't respect them.  They bob and weave, and take no solid positions.  If they want to lead, they should lead!
(10-08-2020, 12:33 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]I listen by reading what you say and directly responding to what you say and so forth. You should be able to figure that out vs accusing me of not listening. You're problem isn't me not listening. Your problem IS me listening and directly responding to you. If you don't take racial xenophobia serious as you say then why are you committed to using it so much these days. I understand that racism still has value on the Democratic side. I'd say it's pretty hard to deny it at this point. But, you can sugar coat it if you want It's not a matter of me not listening.


You are the person of ideological rigidity. I recognize tests of reality other than "I like it" and "I don't like it". 

Major change is always uncomfortable at the beginning. The familiar and conventional usually offer some measure of safety, convenience, and ease. What does not change is basic reality, whatever that is. It is up to those who offer or impose change to demonstrate that such is desirable, necessary, or unavoidable. Challenges to old moral standards are valid only when one moral value conflicts with an old construct. For a very long time homosexuality seemed to be a great abomination to the mainstream almost everywhere. In my case I was able to accept homosexuality as tolerable behavior when I realized that suppression of homosexuality and violence against homosexuals (real or imagined) were inconsistent with liberty, equity, and law and order. I didn't need to like homosexuality to recognize such; I came to recognize that harsh treatment of gays, especially violent attacks, were themselves abominable and even dangerous. Any man can be gay-bashed. I need not understand why some men can love only men and why some women can love only women, but I recognize love as a virtue. At this I am hardly alone.

Sometimes what we have is morally objectionable. So it was with slavery and with the subjection of women. So it was with Jim Crow and Apartheid. Some once-revolutionary changes prove more destructive and in human than what the revolution overthrew (I think of Stalinism and its descendants) or the system that the revolution brought forth ossifies into something itself exploitative, repressive, and dehumanizing. One elite supplanting another elite and becoming as hideous (or even worse) as what it replaced? That is one of the most common themes in history. Every exploitative elite that has ever come into existence has inevitably posed as the only people competent enough to determine the law and administer assets and opportunity, then concluding that its exploitation and command-and-control is all that prevents a descent into the abyss.

...Tests of truth exist. The most obvious is objective reality that has nothing to do with personal desires. If one is a quadriplegic, then that one wants to dance has no bearing on whether one can. There are many things that I would like to see and do, yet those are out of reach because I am nearly broke. I can imagine what better things I could have done with my life if I had my youth back and got to do much over... except that such simply isn't possible.  Time travel, faster-than-light travel, violations of the laws of thermodynamics, selective gravitation, and people coming back from the dead would make much that we know absurd.       
 
Quote:To you, I cluck like a chicken because that's all you can see and go by in this cozy blue environment. In real life, you'd have all kinds of other stuff pertaining to me, You'd have my personality, my wits, my knowledge, my age, my experience and my style which I'm able to adjust that you'd have to contend with that you don't have to contend with here. To me, you tend to squawk like a Liberal and tend to accuse like a Liberal but you do show that you have more sense and a better understanding of Americans  than the others at times.

I can't speak for Bob, but I can speak for myself. I have had some personal loyalties that have nearly wrecked my life. I took care of parents with degenerative ailments -- Parkinsonism and vascular deterioration. I am definitely not in a cozy "blue" environment; I am in a hick town in which about all that is available as outlets are mass culture designed for morons, church, civic organizations, and fraternal lodges. If one lives in the community in which I live and do not escape it, then one lives in a Wal*Mart culture. I am stuck, and I have been in a situation in which I have occasionally thought suicide an option. Small-town life can be rich in its complexity, but that depends upon denying oneself all else. Worst of all is that our elites expect me to believe that their exploitation and degradation of my life is some laudable benevolence. 

Maybe it is easy for me to see Donald Trump as an expression of all that is wrong with American life. I am hardly alone. He will be an easy scapegoat. When he is gone we will need to restructure America so that people don't have to go to the Acela Corridor or the high-tech paradises to  find acceptable lives in which people who do the work can live comfortably. We will need to break the monopolies and trusts that dominate the economy. We will need to change the tax laws to give more of a break to small business. We will need to extend education by a couple years so that people will be able to make better decisions in life. We will need to reform the police so that they not be so trigger-happy around black and brown people. 

More of us will need to create our own prosperity, so that means that we will need to rely more upon small business and less on corporate behemoths with their bureaucratic bloat. The change will be worth it.
(10-08-2020, 08:14 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]The AP has the next presidential debate cancelled by Trump (right link!).  The debate commission wants to hold a virtual debate, each candidate and the moderator in their own studio.  This was unacceptable to Trump.  It would also allow the moderator to cut off the off candidate when the other has the floor.  I was for this sort of arrangement even before Trump caught the bug.
 

Basically, the President does not want an honest debate. He wants the stage in which he can pummel his opponent by hogging the attention. Things go his way or else. he has always had a take-it-or-leave-it approach in his business dealings, and he has tried to impose that in politics.   

Quote:It sort of reflect my thoughts on the whole COVUS response.  There is a push to return to normal as opposed to making intelligent responses to adjust to the new threat.

Of course the death rates are anything but normal. That is the big and completely-unwelcome change, and it goes before life can go back to normal (meaning that, among other things, we can attend bars, theaters, and sporting events again).
Today I was chatting to an American Russian about what is happening in the U.S. He is sort of middle of the road, average Joe American. He sort of gave me an indication of how average America is feeling about the election. 

To start with, he said Trump has simply gone too crazy. He doesn't like Biden either but as he put it, "its a case of voting for the lesser of two evils." Obviously he dosent expect Biden to do anything but it is better then a crazy Trump. He even confessed that he'd voted for Obama and nearly voted for Trump in 2016 as he felt he was a better choice then Hilary.

Interestingly, he did say that Trump and his economic plan of putting American first and bringing back the manufacturing jobs along with low taxes is actually a very good idea and what most people actually support. So Trump got that right. 

Now my own thoughts are that it is inevitable that Biden will win. However Trump, had he kept his mouth shut and behaved himself properly, could have easily won a second term despite covid. Yet he was too crazy, arrogant and stupid that he has essentially given the election to Biden. Its not even a contest at this point. 

The only big question we have to ask is how Trump plans to step down. Will he just have one large moan about voter fraud but then step down? Or will he really push to try and stay, creating the biggest constitutional crisis in American history?
CNN has a report on the Biden campaign putting out 'Truth over Flies' merchandise, notably flyswatters.

First batch sold out.
Poll averages Oct.8, 5 PM EDT

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/pol.../national/

National Biden +9.8

Alaska Trump +4.6
Arizona Biden +4.3
Colorado Biden +13
Florida Biden +4.2
Georgia Biden +1.1
Iowa Biden +1
Kansas Trump +7.0
Maine CD2 Biden +1
Michigan Biden +7.8
Minnesota Biden +8.9
Missouri Trump +5.7
Montana Trump +8.8
Nevada Biden +6.7
New Hampshire Biden +9.9
North Carolina Biden +2.6
Ohio Biden +0.8
Pennsylvania Biden +7
South Carolina Trump +5.5
Texas Trump +1.6
Virginia Biden +12.3
Wisconsin Biden +7
(10-08-2020, 03:05 PM)Isoko Wrote: [ -> ]The only big question we have to ask is how Trump plans to step down. Will he just have one large moan about voter fraud but then step down? Or will he really push to try and stay, creating the biggest constitutional crisis in American history?

I am now wondering if he will threaten retribution or to contest the election, but offer to resign early if the states drop the charges against him. Trading pardons with Pence is almost a given at the federal level, but lock him up could still happen at the state level. Using his lame duck period to work one last deal seems possible.
(10-08-2020, 03:05 PM)Isoko Wrote: [ -> ]Today I was chatting to an American Russian about what is happening in the U.S. He is sort of middle of the road, average Joe American. He sort of gave me an indication of how average America is feeling about the election. 

To start with, he said Trump has simply gone too crazy. He doesn't like Biden either but as he put it, "its a case of voting for the lesser of two evils." Obviously he dosent expect Biden to do anything but it is better then a crazy Trump. He even confessed that he'd voted for Obama and nearly voted for Trump in 2016 as he felt he was a better choice then Hilary.

Interestingly, he did say that Trump and his economic plan of putting American first and bringing back the manufacturing jobs along with low taxes is actually a very good idea and what most people actually support. So Trump got that right. 

Now my own thoughts are that it is inevitable that Biden will win. However Trump, had he kept his mouth shut and behaved himself properly, could have easily won a second term despite covid. Yet he was too crazy, arrogant and stupid that he has essentially given the election to Biden. Its not even a contest at this point. 

The only big question we have to ask is how Trump plans to step down. Will he just have one large moan about voter fraud but then step down? Or will he really push to try and stay, creating the biggest constitutional crisis in American history?

Americans of all stripes, along with citizens of the UK and Austrailia, need to come to grips with their acceptance of the trickle-down theory. Low taxes is always appealing, and in the right time and amount can stimulate economic activity. But it is no cure all. Taxes have been lowered in the USA over and over again, especially on the richest people and corporations. The USA has used up whatever stimulus power that lower taxes might have a long time ago.

Obama's stimulus in 2009 is the only thing that has kept the economy recovering from the deep recession of 2008. Fiscal stimulus, meaning government spending, had been a no-no throughout the neo-liberal reign of Reaganomics and "lower taxes" as the cure-all, and became so again in short order. But although the Republicans deliberately stalled the Obama recovery by blocking further stimulus and cutting government jobs in hopes of stopping Obama's re-election, their candidate in 2012 was not strong or skilled enough to beat the Obama magic, as the horoscope scores show. 

Meanwhile the lower taxes scheme of Reagan/Bush/Trump has skyrocketed the US national debt beyond all recovery. Government spending has all gone to the military instead of the people. Services, social work and infrastructure, education, environmental protection, investment in science and new industry, health care have all suffered. The pandemic and disease-control institutions and projects were stopped, causing disaster. 

The neo-liberal, lower-taxes cure all is still popular, because people prefer "liberty" to "government." But it is a false ideal. It is only liberty for an unregulated authority, an economic elite that hogs all the money, with the phony promise that giving them breaks and subsidies will "trickle down." It doesn't. Only the rich gain from this scheme. Even under Trump, most people in the USA are just getting by. Unemployment dropped, but the wages and salaries have not risen much (and only through state and local actions), because national minimum wage requirements can't be raised as long as the "low taxes/deregulation" cure-all scheme is put in power. It must be overthrown if the USA and other anglosphere countries are not to continue to fall behind in child mortality, health, education, life expectancy, gun violence, and all the other measures on which the USA has now fallen below most other developed nations.

America First trade deals were a good Trump promise. We needed stronger tariffs and tax regulations that encourage companies to employ American workers. But Trump's approach has not worked well. NAFTA reform amounted to little, and Trump lost the trade war with China. Better trade deals are needed, but are hard to get. 

Workers need more support than this. Since so much work is being computerized and robotized, income support and redistribution need to be respected ideas again as neo-liberalism is put out of power. The productive power of technology does not need to benefit only the owners and CEOs; they did not create all the wealth, and they do not deserve 500 times what their employees get. Taxes need to be raised on them to decrease their extortion, and the money given back to the people in services, investments and rebates. Unions need to be encouraged, not restricted. Education needs to be supported again. Government investment in clean energy and other new industries is needed to create jobs. Our industrial might did not come only from entrepreneurs and robber barons, as neo-liberal myth states. Government has always been behind this too, because it makes the long-term investments needed. The first Republican president knew this truth and applied it.

That does not mean we need to become a socialist government-run economy. The right balance is what is needed. Real competition instead of oligarchy, more freedom for small business and innovation, encouragements for entrepreneurs, are all valuable too, along with tax cuts, all in good time, my pretty; all in good time. In the right time and place and amounts, and not at the expense of needed regulations that protect our lives and health.
Literal TREASON against a state:

(Classic X'er -- these people really were riled up into a terririst plot.There are over 300,000 ways to be an American, but terrorist deeds and plotting are not valid ways to be an American.

by: Adam Fisher
Posted: Oct 8, 2020 / 10:36 AM EDT Updated: Oct 8, 2020 / 12:25 PM EDT



LANSING, Mich (WLNS)- 6 News has learned, State law enforcement stopped a ‘massive statewide’ plot to kidnap and kill Michigan Governor.

Six men already faces federal charges in that plot, and authorities say, they even went as far as to find and watch her vacation home and building bombs, authorities say.
A document filed in federal court Tuesday identifies the suspects as Adam Fox, Barry Croft, Ty Garbin, Kaleb Franks, Daniel Harris and Brandon Caserta.


In the criminal complaint, an FBI agent wrote that talk of targeting the governor surfaced as early as June as Fox and other members of an unnamed militia met in Ohio. They were angry about Whitmer’s mandates issued in response to the coronavirus that shut down businesses.
The documents show that as conversations continued over the following months, sometimes at tactical training gatherings, a more firm plan formed.


“Fox described it as a ‘Snatch and grab, man. Grab the (expletive) Governor. Just grab the (expletive). Because that that point, we do that, dude — it’s over,’” the criminal complaint reads in part.


According to the document, the militia members talked about storming the state Capitol in Lansing and killing police officers, but Garbin shut that idea down. It was then the focus turned to the governor’s vacation home. The suspects allegedly figured out where that house was and went there Aug. 29 to scope it out.


Fox ultimately bought a Taser to use in the attack. In addition to discussing various bombings, Garbin suggested blowing up a nearby bridge in an effort to slow the police response.


The plan was to take Whitmer to Wisconsin and hold a kangaroo court trial for treason.
There was talk of actually carrying out the plan on the night of Sept. 12 and Sept. 13, but Croft thought the time was not right, so the suspects held off. They wanted to do it before the Nov. 3 election.


Fox had been staying at the Vac Shack at the intersection of S. Division Avenue and 36th Street in Grand Rapids, which was raided by the FBI Wednesday.
The store’s owner Brian Titus told News 8 he has known Fox since he was a child. He said he knew Fox was in a militia, but didn’t know how serious his anti-government opinions had gotten.


“I thought he was just trying to stand up for our constitutional rights,” Titus, clearly upset, said.


He said Fox had “changed” in the last eight months, objecting to wearing a mask because he thought it was a violation of his rights. Titus said he attended a protest of militia members at the state Capitol over the summer.


All the suspects except for Croft, who is from Delaware, are from Michigan. Harris lives in Lake Orion.


The Michigan Attorney General will Join both the U.S. Attorney for the Western District of Michigan, and Eastern District of Michigan, as well as the FBI, and Michigan State Police Colonial at 1 PM to discuss the plot, and their investigation.


LANSING, Mich. (WLNS)– Happening today at 1 PM Michigan Attorney General Dana Nessel will make a joint announcement with several law enforcement officials across the state.
Those officials include:

  • Andrew Birge, U.S. Attorney for the Western District of Michigan

  • Matthew Schneider, U.S. Attorney for the Eastern District of Michigan

  • Josh Hauxhurst, Assistant Special Agent-in-Charge, F.B.I.

  • Michigan State Police Col. Joseph Casper