Generational Theory Forum: The Fourth Turning Forum: A message board discussing generations and the Strauss Howe generational theory

Capitalism has nothing to do with character independent from all other social relations. There are capitalists - not many, but some - who are indeed kind, philanthropic and charitable from personal conviction and not because it benefits them in the form of public relations or tax wirte-offs.

This is also completely irrelevant to the actual, systemic functions of capitalism.

There is no actual partisan divide on issues. Capitalism and political economy are one coherent system regardless of which flavor of bourgeois management is in power.

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(06-01-2021, 12:37 PM)Einzige Wrote: [ -> ]Capitalism has nothing to do with character independent from all other social relations. There are capitalists - not many, but some - who are indeed kind, philanthropic and charitable from personal conviction and not because it benefits them in the form of public relations or tax wirte-offs.

This is also completely irrelevant to the actual, systemic functions of capitalism.

It’s possible for them to be charitable on the outside yet brutal on the inside, whether to their workers or in some cases their families.

(06-01-2021, 12:37 PM)Einzige Wrote: [ -> ]Capitalism has nothing to do with character independent from all other social relations. There are capitalists - not many, but some - who are indeed kind, philanthropic and charitable from personal conviction and not because it benefits them in the form of public relations or tax wirte-offs.

This is also completely irrelevant to the actual, systemic functions of capitalism.

The basic problem though is not with capitalism or Marxism.  Human elites tend to gather power to themselves.  The Republicans, Democrats, Marxists, Fascists and even royalists all had that problem.  The powers that be identified with each other rather than the people.  Many come to turn themselves against the people directly, which is the Republican's current problem.

The answer is to identify with a mechanism which give power to the people.  To date, representative democracy and elections seems to be the dominant alternative.  I will occasionally remind people of computer networked democracy, of giving power directly to the people, rather than the representative system which forces the people to count on the benefit of the representatives, who seem to inevitably identify with the elites.

I keep asking you to identify some such mechanism to prevent the latest bunch of pseudo Marxists from following the path of Lenin, Stalin and Mao.  You have consistently failed to do so.  Until you do, you and any other pseudo Marxists will be rejected by the people you count on to commit violence for your own sake.

There is a saying that begins "fooled me once, shame on you."  How does it end?

"The partisan divide on issues" I don't see that there is a partisan divide in the USA between Communists and Democrats.

(06-01-2021, 07:55 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]

(06-01-2021, 12:37 PM)Einzige Wrote: [ -> ]Capitalism has nothing to do with character independent from all other social relations. There are capitalists - not many, but some - who are indeed kind, philanthropic and charitable from personal conviction and not because it benefits them in the form of public relations or tax wirte-offs.

This is also completely irrelevant to the actual, systemic functions of capitalism.

The basic problem though is not with capitalism or Marxism.  Human elites tend to gather power to themselves.

That is the point. Vile people have found ways in which to pervert any ideology, religion, or economic order. Some people are pure thieves, brigands, or perverts; they do what they can get away with until they are caught. Such is their nature, and no re-education or thought-reform can correct them. The Soviet Union had a culture of thieves that had existed in the times of the tsar. Not even the Gulag, which could break practically anyone, could break them. 

People respond to the structure of rewards. Punishment breaks people down, which may explain why a system that offers no rewards to most people, such as a pure slave system, breaks down easily under stress. (Consider one cause of failure of the Confederate side in the American Civil War: slaves knew that all that they needed do was to slip away to the Union lines. When enough slaves broke toward the Union lines, the food supply for Confederate troops broke down. There is no more certain Fifth Column than slaves who literally have nothing to lose but their chains. 

American capitalism in recent years has structured its rewards in ways that promote the rise and enrichment of narcissistic types who treat people badly for their personal gain that manifests itself in extreme indulgence. Treating people badly includes keeping people overworked and underpaid or ripping them off through shady dealings or crony capitalism. That is 3T behavior, and it must die in a 4T.    

 

Quote:The Republicans, Democrats, Marxists, Fascists and even royalists all had that problem.  The powers that be identified with each other rather than the people.  Many come to turn themselves against the people directly, which is the Republican's current problem.

Did you hear what disgraced former General Michael Quisling -- ahem, Flynn -- said at a Qanon conference?





To Hell with any would-be "James Mattoon Scott" from Seven Days in May!

Quote:The answer is to identify with a mechanism which give power to the people.  To date, representative democracy and elections seems to be the dominant alternative.  I will occasionally remind people of computer networked democracy, of giving power directly to the people, rather than the representative system which forces the people to count on the benefit of the representatives, who seem to inevitably identify with the elites.

But democracy, to be workable, depends upon a wise populace. 



It is essential that the people who get grave responsibility in administrating public institutions, leading troops in battle, practicing law or doing law enforcement, teaching pupils at any level, influencing people's minds as journalists or therapists know the fundamentals upon which not only establish our Republic, keep it free, and keep it workable. Gaming the system at the expense of essential liberty must be unthinkable. 

Thug methods get thug results. OK, maybe one can make some exceptions in war time or a warlike situation, assassinating a Reinhard Heydrich or an Osama bin Laden. Even so, Shakespeare (who is a Founding Father of American culture left no question that thuggish methods in gaining power, as done by Macbeth in Macbeth, lead to tragedy for all concerned.  

    

Quote:I keep asking you (Einzige)  to identify some such mechanism to prevent the latest bunch of pseudo Marxists from following the path of Lenin, Stalin and Mao.  You have consistently failed to do so.  Until you do, you and any other pseudo Marxists will be rejected by the people you count on to commit violence for your own sake.

There is a saying that begins "fooled me once, shame on you."  How does it end?

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Maybe we can learn something from Marx -- that Marxist assumptions about a society have validity when the elites of the time make those assumptions true about the society in question. The best lesson for people doing well is that very bad practices by economic elites that make life unduly miserable for all but themselves constitutes the potential for suicide. Maximizing profits for maximal indulgence  looks like a good way to ensure that one is among the first to be mowed down in a fusillade in the name of "proletarian" or "revolutionary" justice. 

The lesson should be obvious. To keep living well, make sure to leave no question that one be good.

Back in the 2016 campaign, there was a common mantra among the Republicans about Hilary, “Lock her up.” They seemed to have a good time chanting it. Of course, nothing came of it. She and any other Obama administration people were not charged. The entire thing has faded. Nowadays, the flip side accusations are taken seriously. There seems to be a real desire to lock him, his family and various people up. Indictments, convictions and pardons are flying around and rumored. The Democrats are taking the proceedings entirely seriously, even if Biden does particularly want to be associated with it.

I’m not sure where this leads. I also note Hillary retreated from public life, while Trump declines to go away. But we will see where this and other differences lead.

(06-02-2021, 04:55 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]Back in the 2016 campaign, there was a common mantra among the Republicans about Hilary, “Lock her up.”  They seemed to have a good time chanting it.  Of course, nothing came of it.  She and any other Obama administration people were not charged.  The entire thing has faded.  Nowadays, the flip side accusations are taken seriously.  There seems to be a real desire to lock him, his family and various people up.  Indictments, convictions and pardons are flying around and rumored.  The Democrats are taking the proceedings entirely seriously, even if Biden does particularly want to be associated with it.

I’m not sure where this leads.  I also note Hillary retreated from public life, while Trump declines to go away.  But we will see where this and other differences lead.

The "lock her up" mantra was theater, and most if not all the participants knew that -- at first.  As it got more entrenched, it became more serious.  Now we're seeing the blowback.  The blowback may have the benefit of actually describing real crimes.  Will that lead to anything?  The Magic 8-Ball says "The answer is murky.  Try again later".

(06-02-2021, 04:55 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]Back in the 2016 campaign, there was a common mantra among the Republicans about Hilary, “Lock her up.”  They seemed to have a good time chanting it.  Of course, nothing came of it.  She and any other Obama administration people were not charged.  The entire thing has faded.  Nowadays, the flip side accusations are taken seriously.  There seems to be a real desire to lock him, his family and various people up.  Indictments, convictions and pardons are flying around and rumored.  The Democrats are taking the proceedings entirely seriously, even if Biden does particularly want to be associated with it.

I’m not sure where this leads.  I also note Hillary retreated from public life, while Trump declines to go away.  But we will see where this and other differences lead.

I think of what Karl Rove said about a political opponent of one of his clients: that they were going to f--- him like he has never been f---ed before. Not only does Rove defeat the person but make that person and many of his supporters give up on politics as excessively distasteful. Someone as successful as Karl Rogue -- excuse me, Rove -- inspires imitation among people whose ruthlessness overpowers all other personal traits. Sure, winning is important, but something is also important in winning: that the quest be desirable. (I am not saying that Karl Rove had anything to do with the Trump campaign).

It is essential that in the democratic process, both sides recognize that the preservation of democratic norms be more important than winning the election. One way to destroy democracy is to create the consensus on the Other Side that politics is an odious activity so that one decides to use one's talents elsewhere. To that end someone like Rove or an imitator ensure that politics becomes a playground for characters as swinish as... irony intended ... the pigs in Animal Farm. 

Theater has its merits. Don't be fooled; we need it, as it can enlighten us in the form of entertainment. Does anyone have any question of the merits of Shakespeare and Shaw? Or, for that matter, Gilbert and Sullivan? Even so, it is best that politics have substantive issues as the focus and not a stream of catcalls against the Other Side. Great theater (which includes opera) tells us or reminds us of something that we need to know. Bad theater debases us. "Lock her up!" is horrid theater. 
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Now to a great relevancy: the legal system can itself be a theater. The drama has been powerful. President Biden can distance himself from it to an extent because he trusts the courts to do their appointed tasks. He has obvious concerns, and the deeds of Donald Trump before he became President look horrible. To be sure, those deeds leave a paper trail, and that requires a jury attentive to details that can incriminate as much as can a murder weapon with finger prints of the defendant and ballistic evidence that connects the gun to the deceased -- or to eyewitness testimony..

Good use of the MAGA initials there! I think the number arrested is over 400 by now. Republicans still resist an investigation by a bipartisan independent commission to see who all is behind the attack and how it can be prevented in the future. They thereby support the attack and oppose democracy. Not voting to convict Trump, and a lot of them voting not to certify the election even after being personally in danger during the attack, is also an attack on democracy and the peoples' rights.

(06-04-2021, 03:26 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]Good use of the MAGA initials there! I think the number arrested is over 400 by now. Republicans still resist an investigation by a bipartisan independent commission to see who all is behind the attack and how it can be prevented in the future. They thereby support the attack and oppose democracy. Not voting to convict Trump, and a lot of them voting not to certify the election even after being personally in danger during the attack, is also an attack on democracy and the peoples' rights.

I simply cut-and-pasted. Of course it had to be 'interesting' for topical irony.

Some of the defendants will be convicted of mere misdemeanors which will be resolved with (most likely) time served, a fine, and likely probation. Most of the offenders otherwise have clean records. This said, some of them look like bums and losers. There may be mental illness in some cases.

Some of the recent blue pundits are playing the theme that Trump has lost it.  Less energy.  Signs of senility.  Pants on backwards.  Now is seems the Republicans base has been riding on Trump, and the establishment Republicans are following suit.  The wannabe future candidates don't dare cross Trump lest he shoot them down in the primary.  Trump is pushing the big lie to keep this control.  The loss of his internet entity and the circling legal vulture makes me doubt his hanging on to the base.

But as yet only Trump and Palin were able to work their magic with the Republican base.  We shall have to see if someone else can conjure the magic.  Meanwhile Trump seems to be stuck on Trump rather than the GOP or the country.  That seems unlikely to change among Trump and the GOP base.

One of the recent Republican base things is that Trump will be reinstated in early August.  Constitutionally, what mechanism would be used to do that?  The rules for presidential succession are fairly clearly established in the constitution as amended.  Even supposing there was evidence of fraud, that it could be tied to Biden, and that he were impeached, resigned or otherwise removed, all of which is absurdly unlikely given the lack of evidence and the Democrats holding the Senate, the succession would go to the Vice President, the Speaker, president pro temper of the Senate, the cabinet secretaries, etc… The former president just isn’t on the list.

I’m sort of used to fantasies coming from the Republican base, but this one is unusually unrealistic.  Does anyone have any clue how it could legally come to be?  Are those who promote or believe the theory advocating the overthrow of the constitution?

(07-10-2021, 05:48 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]One of the recent Republican base things is that Trump will be reinstated in early August.  Constitutionally, what mechanism would be used to do that?  The rules for presidential succession are fairly clearly established in the constitution as amended.  Even supposing there was evidence of fraud, that it could be tied to Biden, and that he were impeached, resigned or otherwise removed, all of which is absurdly unlikely given the lack of evidence and the Democrats holding the Senate, the succession would go to the Vice President, the Speaker, president pro temper of the Senate, the cabinet secretaries, etc… The former president just isn’t on the list.

I’m sort of used to fantasies coming from the Republican base, but this one is unusually unrealistic.  Does anyone have any clue how it could legally come to be?  Are those who promote or believe the theory advocating the overthrow of the constitution?

I don't know. Do you have a theory on how such a fantasy could come to be?

(07-10-2021, 07:19 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]I don't know. Do you have a theory on how such a fantasy could come to be?

I think the 'Shogun' technique seems the only one plausible.  When told there was no way the Emperor could be overthrown, the token western character had a reply.  You had to win a Civil War.

(06-08-2021, 09:11 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]Some of the recent blue pundits are playing the theme that Trump has lost it.  Less energy.  Signs of senility.  Pants on backwards.  Now is seems the Republicans base has been riding on Trump, and the establishment Republicans are following suit.  The wannabe future candidates don't dare cross Trump lest he shoot them down in the primary.  Trump is pushing the big lie to keep this control.  The loss of his internet entity and the circling legal vulture makes me doubt his hanging on to the base.

This happens with a cult-like leader. For those taken in he is beyond rational assessment. He has inspired a huge personal investment of time, money, and identity for many, and any erratic behavior must be understood in the context of His Personal Greatness. The Leader becomes the focus irrespective of his questionable or limited achievements. An intellectual attack on the person is an attack upon the followers. 

We know of course to whom one most often associates the Big Lie. and we all know what he and his minions were able to do with it: the replacement of a responsible government with a syndicate of organized crime, transformation of the working class into serfs, removal of political dissent, elimination of people whom he considered unworthy of life including a religion long considered "major". His name need not be mentioned. That monster was able to make his Big Lie the only 'safe' viewpoint within his empire, and any exercise of conscience was successful only if protected or well-hidden. 

A hint: all that has kept Dietrich Bonhoeffer from canonization in the Roman Catholic Church is that he was not a Catholic. A second hint: the Big Lie disintegrates only with the disintegration of the hideous regime, and we all know how that ended.

 

Brute force and heroism, from Stalingrad to Berlin. Nobody could lie himself out of that reality by early May 1945. That's the only way to put an end to the Big Lie that has a military Great Power, torture chambers, slave-labor camps, a secret police, and complete control of the media to enforce the lie. Accept the lie or at least pretend to... or die.  
 

Quote:But as yet only Trump and Palin were able to work their magic with the Republican base.  We shall have to see if someone else can conjure the magic.  Meanwhile Trump seems to be stuck on Trump rather than the GOP or the country.  That seems unlikely to change among Trump and the GOP base.

Intellectually-hollow as Palin and Trump are, they succeeded to the extent that they did with dishonesty among the gullible. Many people believe whatever is convenient for them at the time, which explains the knack of confidence artists for flattering their marks. That could be at the most genteel the "hot stock tip" that usually is a means of disposing a troubled stock that huge investors want to divest themselves of.  A stockbroker that I trust told me what I suspected -- that there are no special tips except of that type. At the worst are demagogues telling people that those "other people" are getting the special breaks that the rest of us are denied. We all know who gets those special breaks. 

No, it's not hard work, scrupulous investment, honing the talents of entrepreneurialism, dedication to excellence at the expense of instant gratification, or shrewd management of valuable assets. It's nothing like Malcolm Gladwell's "10,000 hours" necessary for performance of professional-level activity of law or medicine, excellence in classical or popular music that ensures a high level of refinement (Beatles or the Berlin Philharmonic alike), refinement in writing, painting, composition, or acting... even so banal an activity as the sale of life insurance is trying to go that route. 

Falling short of 10,000 hours? You will not achieve your dreams of success... but you may have a more balanced life. Maybe you are a great repository of sports trivia or know the plot of every episode of Star Trek.  You probably do work of limited skill, but you never miss a family reunion. You may be broke, but your wardrobe or electronics are all up to date. You might have a nice collection of rocks that is a local legend. Maybe you aren't Hollywood material, but your local performance of a Shakespeare  soliloquy is a legend for your high school when you perform it every year. 

I know, I know, I know. It takes family support. With a personality like mine I might be a concert pianist if I had gotten the encouragement to do so (and the piano) for developing the muscle memory from playi9ng hours of scales that my relatives could have never tolerated. "Fambly togetherness is happiness", I heard... sure. We all ended up wasting time watching the idiot screen when the conversation stopped because nobody had anything left to say. OK, one needs some encouragement to play 5000 hours of dry exercises before being able to make the most of attendance at the Conservatory. 

But just remember: many Hollywood actors have messed-up lives. The rap on classical musicians is that they are completely incompetent as lovers. The brilliant nuclear physicist might be completely helpless should his car break down. On the other hand we need far more people to milk cows, pack deceased poultry for grocery stores, do oil changes and tune-ups, sell underwear, or deliver newspapers. Far more people are in the "movie business" selling tickets in movie theater than are involved in any way in cinematic production. 

Our economic system has done little to promote the dignity of work in recent decades. It's all about ensuring that most jobs can be done by anyone, and that anyone not part of the elite can find himself in a position in which he has no choice except to take some horrible job with abysmal pay. Many of us are obliged to show the huge, theatrical "Happy to serve you!" smile even if one hates the job that one does for the suffering and poverty that such work mandates. The stupider that one is  down to the level of "dull normal" -- one is just smart enough to know enough to not take money from the till or to contradict the Boss -- the happier one is. 

Trump supporters seem to be white people holding those miserable jobs, distressed by the fact that people not white are getting paid just as well (and at the same time, poorly) -- and perpetrators of the economic order. Along comes a demagogue like Trump to flatter them. People transfer their contempt from their exploiters to those that the demagogue presents as pariahs. In a way "Radical Islam" becomes much what "Dirty Jews" used to be. Or (it rhymes with either "snags" or "triggers").  

Before anyone compares contemporary America to Weimar Germany... sure, our mass culture is just as depraved, and we have much racism just beneath the surface. One big difference applies: Weimar Germany had one model minority (the Jews) identifiable readily by religion but nothing else. America has plenty of model minorities -- the black bourgeoisie, middle-class Hispanics, Arab-Americans, every imaginable Asian-American group from Iranian-Americans to Filipino-Americans and Japanese-Americans, LGBT people, and of course Jews. On the whole such people may have saved America from a second term of Donald Quisling Trump and, in view of the degradation of American political discourse under him, a dictatorship.

(07-10-2021, 08:09 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]

(07-10-2021, 07:19 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]I don't know. Do you have a theory on how such a fantasy could come to be?

I think the 'Shogun' technique seems the only one plausible.  When told there was no way the Emperor could be overthrown, the token western character had a reply.  You had to win a Civil War.

Trump is a coward. Expecting him to front a revolution is simply out of the question.  The only way that might change: if it was handed to him on a platter.  I'm not holding my breath.  I do see him running a grievance campaign in 2024, though.

(07-11-2021, 10:07 AM)David Horn Wrote: [ -> ]

(07-10-2021, 08:09 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]

(07-10-2021, 07:19 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]I don't know. Do you have a theory on how such a fantasy could come to be?

I think the 'Shogun' technique seems the only one plausible.  When told there was no way the Emperor could be overthrown, the token western character had a reply.  You had to win a Civil War.

Trump is a coward. Expecting him to front a revolution is simply out of the question.  The only way that might change: if it was handed to him on a platter.  I'm not holding my breath.  I do see him running a grievance campaign in 2024, though.

Few people have a higher ratio of vice to virtue than does Donald Trump. At the least people holding miserable, low-paying jobs as fast-food workers are obliged to adopt humility as a survival skill. We all know how American plutocracy works: the only reason for human existence is to make someone already filthy-rich even more filthy-rich or to indulge that person's swinish behavior. "Life is a cabaret, old chum... come to the Cabaret"...  

Donald Trump has no courage, no self-control, no respect for objective truth or any tradition, no love of learning, and no ability to see the worth of other people except to the extent that they can make him richer or indulge his primitive, unrefined desires.  Just by watching a couple nights of PBS programming every week one can be far more sophisticated than he is. 

The older that I get and the more experiences that I have the more I recognize the ultimate purpose of a good education -- to come to the recognition that more exists in love than sex, intoxicants, mass low culture, material gain and indulgence, and bureaucratic power. Everyone will meet some desperate time in life, and this 



  

kept me from slashing my wrists or taking valium and vodka. No, Donald Trump was not yet President, although he would be in a half-year. The neoliberal era in which most people are obliged to suffer with a smile on behalf of some of the most swinish people around (it is no coincidence that George Orwell's fable has literal pigs expressing the failure of the ideal of barnyard animals taking over a farm with the pigs being more equal than the others). Although Donald Trump's system is not the old Soviet Union he reminds me in many ways of "Napoleon".

That this music exists is more arcane knowledge than is appropriate. It's an emotional rollercoaster taking an hour or so. A 'happy tune' in a Muzak-like arrangement would have been too superficial. It would be over in a few minutes and I would be depressed again. 

Life is a struggle, and it is more of a struggle for some than for others. With poverty that a neoliberal poverty depends upon for ensuring that economic elites can wallow in luxury, the struggle is hard and the rewards are slight. If one has any mental disorder or addiction, one has big troubles. If one cannot trust abusive, neglectful, or exploitative family members, then one has big trouble in relating to society as a whole. You might be surprised at the capacity of people who supposedly have everything to mess up their lives.   

I hope that one of the consequences of mass exposure to Donald Trump that people raise their children to be as unlike Donald Trump as is possible (short of being perhaps a serial rapist and killer like his contemporary Ted Bundy, also identified as an extreme narcissist). I question whether Donald Trump has ever been a happy person. Maybe part of the reward for some ill-paid struggles in life is that one learns to find some happiness in limited achievements that can reshape a life (as a substitute teacher my finest moment was to talk someone out of dropping out of school). 

Does Donald Trump know about this music? Are you kidding? That would take some humane learning! That would require one to develop some taste for catharsis (in the life-saving instance I needed catharsis). I have enjoyed more delight in taking pictures of scenic wonders of Michigan's Upper Peninsula (I regret to say that I lost the camera and -- worse -- the card on it). Ideally one feels good for doing good. That's socialization, folks.

(07-11-2021, 06:34 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]Intellectually-hollow as Palin and Trump are, they succeeded to the extent that they did with dishonesty among the gullible. Many people believe whatever is convenient for them at the time, which explains the knack of confidence artists for flattering their marks.

I just have the feeling that the what is left of the Republican base cares more about having a racist president than it d does about democracy. It isn't that they are being dishonest to themselves, but they are ashamed of their true motivations.