Generational Theory Forum: The Fourth Turning Forum: A message board discussing generations and the Strauss Howe generational theory

(01-19-2022, 02:33 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]Yes, those rights are for all of us -- as I call it "the Big Us" as opposed to the "narrow Us" that Classic X'er defines as people like he. That "narrow Us" excludes tens of millions of people who differ from what he considers American by race, ethnicity, religion, political views, or exual orientation.

Indeed, the Classic Xers are now making a good start at taking away our rights with the help of two phony Democrats, including coal baron Joe Manchin, by defeating the voting rights bills. The Republicans are proceeding with carte blanche to gerrymander and subvert elections so they can win the House and later take the presidency away from unpopular Joe Biden.

(01-19-2022, 03:34 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]

(01-19-2022, 01:47 PM)David Horn Wrote: [ -> ]

(01-18-2022, 11:24 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]

(01-18-2022, 09:45 PM)beechnut79 Wrote: [ -> ]

(01-18-2022, 04:58 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]Neoliberalism is anything but liberal.  It is spent as an ideology and has failed.

So, how far away do you think we are from being able to give Reaganomics last rites?

How close do you think you are to being discarded by America? I'd say that you're within five years of losing every American right and Constitutional protection that you currently have and take for granted today.

That's funny, actually.  Your Liberty or Death cult is getting older by the moment.  Eventually, assuming you guys manage to take full control, your rulers will finally prove that they are only in it for the money ... all the money.  The rest of us will watch as you revenge yourselves by taking to the streets, armed to the teeth, and killing all the innocents you encounter ...  but your leaders will still have the money and the power.

Classic Xer's hero was portrayed well on Perry Mason in 1966, in episode #266, "The Unwelcome Well." 
Actor Wendell Corey, formerly the lead in a series called The Eleventh Hour, played oil baron and subsequent murder victim Jerome Klee, who decided to cap a big new oil find on a hillbilly's property because he had made a much bigger new oil deal with an Arab leader, so using the big Rohan field now (the hillbilly's field) as Perry (then Klee's lawyer) had persuaded Rohan to allow, would depress the crude price on the world market. But Rohan had mortgaged his house and his land to buy stuff in anticipation of the oil revenue. Perry says "but he's liable to lose his land. You can't DO that!"

Klee says the last time anyone told him what to do, it was his own father, and he broke his jaw for him. He was the last one to try it!

Perry: "I see you have most of your associates intimidated"

Klee: "Oh, but not YOU Perry!"

Perry: "No, I'm not intimidated, I'm appalled. What kind of a man ARE you?"

Klee. "A money man, Mr. Mason. Some people collect boats, art; heaven knows why I don't. I collect money; it's as simple as that."

Perry: "How much money do you want?


Klee: "If I can get it, all there is."

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0673422/cha.../nm0179819

Corey himself ran for congress soon afterward as a Republican, but lost and then died.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wendell_Corey

Corey was President of the Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences from 1961 to 1963 and was a member of the board of directors of the Screen Actors Guild. A Republican campaigner in national politics since 1956, Corey was elected to the Santa Monica City Council in April 1965.[10] The conservative politician ran for a California seat in the United States Congress in 1966, but lost the primary election. He was still a councilman at the time of his death.

Corey supported Barry Goldwater in the 1964 United States presidential election.

(01-19-2022, 04:18 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]

(01-19-2022, 02:33 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]Yes, those rights are for all of us -- as I call it "the Big Us" as opposed to the "narrow Us" that Classic X'er defines as people like he. That "narrow Us" excludes tens of millions of people who differ from what he considers American by race, ethnicity, religion, political views, or exual orientation.

Indeed, the Classic Xers are now making a good start at taking away our rights with the help of two phony Democrats, including coal baron Joe Manchin, by defeating the voting rights bills. The Republicans are proceeding with carte blanche to gerrymander and subvert elections so they can win the House and later take the presidency away from unpopular Joe Biden.

You should be thanking the two Democrats for diverting another American Civil War vs another group of Democrats. Yes. Your right to cheat and manipulate political outcomes are being limited and restricted across most of the country. Do you remember what I told you and showed you was going to happen to you if you and the others didn't change your ways and continued to persist? So, where are we at Eric? So, have you or any other Marxist Revolutionary who currently exist ever fought a real life war or found yourselves in a real life fight with American Revolutionary's? What do suppose the rules are going to be during such a war/fight?

OK, Your thoughtless act of desperation aka low life attempt at a power grab disguised as a voting rights bill failed miserably. So, has anyone ever taught you that bait and switch is bad and results in negative consequences like you are seeing today? So, why would a group of wealthy blue minded politicians with degree's associated with elite colleges stoop so low these days? Aren't they supposed to be the cream of the crop as far as human beings these days? Yeah. It's pretty much bullshit but it's what y'all pretty much believe right. I mean, it's about as bad as changing a bunch of election laws during an election and acting like nothing was wrong about it or wrong with it or anything bad happened. So, where do you think poor old PB should move to these days? I've been telling him he should move now vs leaving it to Us to decide for him. I mean, he might find himself being dropped off in the middle of a desert in New Mexico or Nevada along with millions of other Global Citizens.

(01-20-2022, 02:18 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]

(01-19-2022, 04:18 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]

(01-19-2022, 02:33 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]Yes, those rights are for all of us -- as I call it "the Big Us" as opposed to the "narrow Us" that Classic X'er defines as people like he. That "narrow Us" excludes tens of millions of people who differ from what he considers American by race, ethnicity, religion, political views, or exual orientation.

Indeed, the Classic Xers are now making a good start at taking away our rights with the help of two phony Democrats, including coal baron Joe Manchin, by defeating the voting rights bills. The Republicans are proceeding with carte blanche to gerrymander and subvert elections so they can win the House and later take the presidency away from unpopular Joe Biden.

You should be thanking the two Democrats for diverting another American Civil War vs another group of Democrats. Yes. Your right to cheat and manipulate political outcomes are being limited and restricted across most of the country. Do you remember what I told you, showed you was going to happen to you if you and the others didn't change your ways and continued to persist? So, where are we at Eric? So, have you or any other Marxist Revolutionary who currently exists ever fought a real war or found yourselves in a real fight with American Revolutionary's? What do suppose the rules are going to be during such a war? OK, Your thoughtless act of desperation aka low life power grab attempt failed miserably? So, why would a group of wealthy blue minded politicians with degree's associated with elite colleges stoop so low these days? Aren't they supposed to be the cream of the crop as far as human beings these days? Yeah. It's pretty much bullshit but it's what y'all pretty much believe right. I mean, it's about as bad as changing a bunch of election laws during an election and acting like nothing was wrong about it or wrong with it. So, where do you think poor old PB should move to these days?

You and your demented kind are determined to take away our democracy and limit it to certain people that you are comfortable with and are sure won't take away your precious weapons of war. I don't discount the threat that you and your kind pose, and I am glad we now have a Justice Department that can put those of you in jail who carry out your threats to the people. Your denial of the pandemic allows you to ignore the need it posed in 2020 to expand access to the polls when going there in person was unhealthy. You and your demented, sick, tyrannical demagogue would rather make it harder to vote, even when it might endanger their health. All that counts to you is to defend your guns and your trickle-down neoliberal ideology that benefits only the elite rich tycoons that you worship and bow to so much.

(01-19-2022, 02:27 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]

(01-19-2022, 01:25 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]

(01-19-2022, 06:34 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]

(01-18-2022, 11:24 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]

(01-18-2022, 09:45 PM)beechnut79 Wrote: [ -> ]So, how far away do you think we are from being able to give Reaganomics last rites?

How close do you think you are to being discarded by America? I'd say that you're within five years of losing every American right and Constitutional protection that you currently have and take for granted today.

A political order that discards its own people deserves itself to be discarded, whether the Devil's Reich, Stalin's Gulag empire, Uganda under the madness of Idi A-murderin', Rwanda during its genocide, Iraq under Satan Hussein, or contemporary Syria or North Korea. This should be clear:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. 

No, this is not Marxist rhetoric!

This is the Real America, the principles of which include guarantee of life and liberty, and the possibility that one can seek happiness in life (if no guarantee of finding that happiness). If people have no right to happiness except in complete compliance with your values, especially if they differ from your culture, then people have every reason to rebel from such.

You're right, that's not Marxist rhetoric, it's American rhetoric associated with American Revolutionaries.  As you can see and read above, America has the right to revolt and eliminate a Marxist Regime these days. You do understand that right, You do understand that Chuck, Nancy and Joe do not represent the views, beliefs  or the values of the majority of the American people today right. Eric doesn't seem to understand that any better than you or Them these days.

Well, I do understand how often the American people have made the wrong choice of views, values and beliefs-- namely the choices that YOU favor. There's no guarantee we won't go down that road to destruction. Or should I say, continue to go down it, as we have been travelling that road for over 40 years now.

You have no other choice than to continue down the path of self destruction like every other political Cult that proceeded it. It's your destiny so to speak.

(01-20-2022, 02:30 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]You and your demented kind are determined to take away our democracy and limit it to certain people that you are comfortable with and are sure won't take away your precious weapons of war. I don't discount the threat that you and your kind pose, and I am glad we now have a Justice Department that can put those of you in jail who carry out your threats to the people. Your denial of the pandemic allows you to ignore the need it posed in 2020 to expand access to the polls when going there in person was unhealthy. You and your demented, sick, tyrannical demagogue would rather make it harder to vote, even when it might endanger their health. All that counts to you is to defend your guns and your trickle-down neoliberal ideology that benefits only the elite rich tycoons that you worship and bow to so much.

You don't live in a functioning democracy now. You live in the Democratic State of California. Me, I live in the American State of Minnesota that has no interest in becoming another Democratic State like New York, California or Chicago aka Illinois.

(01-20-2022, 02:18 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]

(01-19-2022, 04:18 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]

(01-19-2022, 02:33 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]Yes, those rights are for all of us -- as I call it "the Big Us" as opposed to the "narrow Us" that Classic X'er defines as people like he. That "narrow Us" excludes tens of millions of people who differ from what he considers American by race, ethnicity, religion, political views, or exual orientation.

Indeed, the Classic Xers are now making a good start at taking away our rights with the help of two phony Democrats, including coal baron Joe Manchin, by defeating the voting rights bills. The Republicans are proceeding with carte blanche to gerrymander and subvert elections so they can win the House and later take the presidency away from unpopular Joe Biden.

You should be thanking the two Democrats for diverting another American Civil War vs another group of Democrats. Yes. Your right to cheat and manipulate political outcomes are being limited and restricted across most of the country. Do you remember what I told you and showed you was going to happen to you if you and the others didn't change your ways and continued to persist? So, where are we at Eric? So, have you or any other Marxist Revolutionary who currently exist ever fought a real life war or found yourselves in a real life fight with American Revolutionary's? What do suppose the rules are going to be during such a war/fight?

Cheat? What cheat?

When the law expands the franchise to people recently denied the vote through chicanery, threats, or outright force one can expect the new law to result in chances in the political agenda. When demographics erode support for some aspects of the recent consensus and suggest an electorate desiring something else, then politicians adapt or lose relevance (especially when they are defeated). I look at several of the farm-state Senators from Great Plains states who were able to get re-elected by supporting farm and ranch subsidies that aided the remaining small farmers who then reliably voted Republican in Presidential elections. Economic reality, namely the tendency for corporate farmers to squeeze out small farmers,. ensured the loss of support for such US Senators. On the other side, the growth of the Hispanic population has given opportunities to Democrats in the American Southwest.

America is becoming less white, rural, and Protestant, and Republicans have failed to keep up with the sentiments of the electorate that results. Even Texas, a reliable R state in Presidential elections since 1980 (from 1988 on it straddled the 400th electoral vote for a Democratic nominee) isn't so lockstep Republican anymore. Texas used to be decidedly more rural, more dominated by the oil industry, and less educated than America as a whole. To be sure the rural areas are becoming more R -- but they are also losing population while Texas cities grow rapidly.

I look at the Capitol Putsch, and participants seem to largely fit the demographics of what you, Classic X'er, see as the "Real America". Such people may believe that they are more right about America going down the political and economic toilet. That is not for you to decide on their behalf. They may think that nobody could have possibly voted against their political idol Donald Trump because few that they know admit that they will vote otherwise. Such people believe that the giant cities are modern-day equivalents of Sodom and Gomorrah due to all the feminists, LGBT people, non-Christians, educated people, and minorities. Yes, I can identify at least one example of an urban area in my state that really is a Sodom and Gomorrah (southwest Detroit along Michigan Avenue west of the site of old Tiger Stadium), but I contrast that to abutting Dearborn with its large Arab and Muslim population that has little tolerance for drunks, addicts, whores, and pimps wandering into their town.

The people that you disparage include some very good people.The sole fault that I see with the people that you see as salt-of-the-earth types is that they could fall for a vile man who was the nominee of one of the two main Parties. I hate financial cheats and I have little respect for rabble-rousing bigots and men who go through spouses faster than some people go through cars.
,

Quote:OK, Your thoughtless act of desperation aka low life attempt at a power grab disguised as a voting rights bill failed miserably.  So, has anyone ever taught you that bait and switch is bad and results in negative consequences like you are seeing today? So, why would a group of wealthy blue minded politicians with degree's associated with elite colleges stoop so low these days? Aren't they supposed to be the cream of the crop as far as human beings these days? Yeah. It's pretty much bullshit but it's what y'all pretty much believe right. I mean, it's about as bad as changing a bunch of election laws during an election and acting like nothing was wrong about it or wrong with it or anything bad happened. So, where do you think poor old PB should move to these days? I've been telling him he should move now vs leaving it to Us to decide for him. I mean, he might find himself being dropped off in the middle of a desert in New Mexico or Nevada along with millions of other Global Citizens.

Denying people the vote through some chicanery or any form of discriminatory behavior to shape the electorate to get a predetermined result is grossly undemocratic. One Texas proposal is to allow only one drop-off site per county even if that is Harris (Greater Houston), Dallas (Dallas), Bexar (San Antonio), Travis (Austin), El Paso (El Paso), and Tarrant (Fort Worth) Counties, all of which have populations of one million or more.

Oregon (decidedly D) and Utah (decidedly R)  both have elections by mail. Every state can do that. That was close to reality in 2020 when COVID-19 made voting places sites of potential mass-infections from deadly COVID-19. The 2018 and 2020 elections didn't go your way (a/k/a the way of the bosses of the Republican Party). Well, about half the time most people will find the overall election at the national level going other than how they want it to go. (It's worse if you vote Third Party on occasion).

So the old hacks who lost step aside and let newer figures try their novel ideas and perhaps drop some of the more unpopular messages that their Party recently lost with. As an example, Democratic nominees from Bill Clinton on have abandoned the idea that poverty creates crime and that character makes crime likely for an individual sociopath. There are plenty of good people in the slums of America, but they are prey for the criminal gangs.

2020 is unique due to COVID-19. States had to adjust laws to accommodate the reality of COVID-19.  Look at it this way: if someone approached a polling place with a sheet hanging from his car window that reads "NI--ER, if you vote you die - KKK" you would reasonably expect the local law enforcement to get that implicit threat away, if necessary with an arrest. COVID-19 was posing a similar threat to voters of all kinds. The cops cannot arrest that virus, but that virus has killed.

Both Parties have had their bad years. They revive by changing their messages to fit public sentiment. If they fail at that then they keep losing. Republicans really need a conservative version of Barack Obama. They will be better off when they recognize that all that kept Barack Obama from being a fine conservative President was that he had a liberal agenda. Obama's style of leadership is as conservative as one can get.

Oh, by the way -- Donald Trump is a low-life irrespective of the wealth and power that he wields. So are the people entwined in messing around with underage girls in the Epstein-Maxwell ring of perverts. Also -- you might consider imbibing in some aspects of the lives of us "global citizens". The cuisine is tastier on our side, and the music may be better. My musical tastes are more typical of Jewish-Americans than most of the German-Americans that I know.

As for dropping off people in harsh desert or semi-desert zones for their political views -- that sounds too much like a concentration camp to me.

The creeps who want to take over our country are winning, and their leaders are Alex Jones, Roger Stone and Donald Trump, and their tactic is outrageous, ridiculous, sensational peddling of pure big lies. The bigger the lie, the better. Their best customers are the Classic Xers and all the other paranoid, neoliberal, racist white males with guns in the USA.

At the start of this video, Alex Jones claims he had won when Trump took the presidency. At the present time, thanks to his Republican Party and two Democratic senate traitors, he is still winning.

(01-19-2022, 01:47 PM)David Horn Wrote: [ -> ]

(01-18-2022, 11:24 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]

(01-18-2022, 09:45 PM)beechnut79 Wrote: [ -> ]

(01-18-2022, 04:58 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]Neoliberalism is anything but liberal.  It is spent as an ideology and has failed.

So, how far away do you think we are from being able to give Reaganomics last rites?

How close do you think you are to being discarded by America? I'd say that you're within five years of losing every American right and Constitutional protection that you currently have and take for granted today.

That's funny, actually.  Your Liberty or Death cult is getting older by the moment.  Eventually, assuming you guys manage to take full control, your rulers will finally prove that they are only in it for the money ... all the money.  The rest of us will watch as you revenge yourselves by taking to the streets, armed to the teeth, and killing all the innocents you encounter ...  but your leaders will still have the money and the power.

That's funny, I'm about 20 years younger than you and Eric. Your wife is the same age as one of my older sisters Shit, you've already got one foot in the grave compared to me. So, who has the money and power on the Democratic side these days? It ain't the millions upon millions of people living below you dude. Like I said, it's not like I'm not familiar with those living in exurbia. My parents were exurban like most suburbans at the time. I've been doing business with them for many years.
 
What's the Democratic political class of worth these days? How much is AOC worth today? So, why do you think AOC was showing off her fancy tax the rich dress and shaking her booty in front of the cameras? Was she doing it to entertain me or doing it for the fame and fortune she's set to receive from the donor/ruling class? What's Omar worth today? What are the Clinton's worth today? What are the Obama's worth today? What is Bernie Sanders worth today? What is Pelosi worth today? What is Maxine Waters worth today? What is Al Sharpton worth today?  Oh, what were they worth before entering office as Democrats or started working for the Left? Any idea? How much are all the people currently doing business with them one way or another worth today? Any idea?

I tell you what, you fix that OBVIOUS problem before you start talking to US, what you see as the problem with Us and the use of our wealth. You can say what you want about me and Us but you're part of the problem on the Democratic side because you've going along and keeping them in power for your own sake the entire time. I hope they have as much wealth and power as you claim or you're all pretty much fucked when the American Revolution aka the next American Civil War starts and the apple cart starts getting rocked and apples start tumbling down all over the place. You're an old Marxist Revolutionary of sorts. Have you ever messed with an American Revolutionary? Hint: The American Revolutionary isn't going to read you your rights or warn you before they strike/impact you either

(01-20-2022, 03:32 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]

(01-20-2022, 02:30 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]You and your demented kind are determined to take away our democracy and limit it to certain people that you are comfortable with and are sure won't take away your precious weapons of war. I don't discount the threat that you and your kind pose, and I am glad we now have a Justice Department that can put those of you in jail who carry out your threats to the people. Your denial of the pandemic allows you to ignore the need it posed in 2020 to expand access to the polls when going there in person was unhealthy. You and your demented, sick, tyrannical demagogue would rather make it harder to vote, even when it might endanger their health. All that counts to you is to defend your guns and your trickle-down neoliberal ideology that benefits only the elite rich tycoons that you worship and bow to so much.

You don't live in a functioning democracy now. You live in the Democratic State of California. Me, I live in the American State of Minnesota that has no interest in becoming another Democratic State like New York, California or Chicago aka Illinois.

I live in the state that has the best functioning democracy. No gerrymandering, no restricted party primaries, no strict ID requirements, full mail-in voting and early voting. Ballors available in many languages. Easy registration. I have been a precinct inspector for many elections over the years in CA. You live in a purplish blue state that has a long record of Democratic Party dominance. Because of this, it has some good educational and social conditions. But this Democratic Party influence is concentrated in the Twin Cities and in the northeast of the state. Your hick views have gained more support in more recent years, and racial tensions have grown, but MN still voted for Gore, Kerry, Obama and Hillary and for Biden fairly easily, and MN has a moderately-liberal Democratic senator and primary presidential candidate in 2020 who sponsored the same voting rights laws that CA has and that you so ignorantly and fervently oppose, since you are opposed to democracy.

Eric the GreenThe creeps who want to take over our country are winning, and their leaders are Alex Jones, Roger Stone and Donald Trump, and their tactic is outrageous, ridiculous, sensational peddling of pure big lies. The bigger the lie, the better. Their best customers are the Classic Xers and all the other paranoid, neoliberal, racist white males with guns in the USA.

At the start of this video, Alex Jones claims he had won when Trump took the presidency. At the present time, thanks to his Republican Party and two Democratic senate traitors, he is still winning.




I'd rather be viewed as a Democratic traitor than an American traitor at this point. Like I said, it's boiling down to Us vs Them and unfortunately you're one of Them.

Eric the Green


I live in the state that has the best functioning democracy. No gerrymandering, no restricted party primaries, no strict ID requirements, full mail-in voting and early voting. I have been a precinct inspector for many elections over the years in CA. You live in a purplish blue state that has a long record of Democratic Party dominance. Because of this, it has some good educational and social conditions. But this Democratic Party influence is concentrated in the Twin Cities and in the northeast of the state. Your hick views have gained more support in more recent years, and racial tensions have grown, but MN still voted for Gore, Kerry, Obama and Hillary and for Biden fairly easily, and MN has a moderately-liberal Democratic senator and primary presidential candidate in 2020 who sponsored the same voting rights laws that CA has and that you so ignorantly and fervently oppose, since you are opposed to democracy.

I'm not opposed to democracy, I've been actively participating in it along with tens of millions of other Americans for many years, I'm opposed to bribing, entrapment and cheating. So, am I speaking to a Green Party member or a Democratic supporter right now? Oh, are you trying to buy political influence with your own money or are you trying to buy it with someone else's money? If you are a go between, what's your cut of the action?

(01-20-2022, 06:21 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]

(01-19-2022, 01:47 PM)David Horn Wrote: [ -> ]

(01-18-2022, 11:24 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]

(01-18-2022, 09:45 PM)beechnut79 Wrote: [ -> ]

(01-18-2022, 04:58 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]Neoliberalism is anything but liberal.  It is spent as an ideology and has failed.

So, how far away do you think we are from being able to give Reaganomics last rites?

How close do you think you are to being discarded by America? I'd say that you're within five years of losing every American right and Constitutional protection that you currently have and take for granted today.

That's funny, actually.  Your Liberty or Death cult is getting older by the moment.  Eventually, assuming you guys manage to take full control, your rulers will finally prove that they are only in it for the money ... all the money.  The rest of us will watch as you revenge yourselves by taking to the streets, armed to the teeth, and killing all the innocents you encounter ...  but your leaders will still have the money and the power.

That's funny, I'm about 20 years younger than you and Eric. Your wife is the same age as one of my older sisters (Pointless profanity excised), you've already got one foot in the grave compared to me. So, who has the money and power on the Democratic side these days? It ain't the millions upon millions of people living below you dude. Like I said, it's not like I'm not familiar with those living in exurbia. My parents were exurban like most suburbans at the time. I've been doing business with them for many years.

No relevance except for explaining how your once-idyllic world is no longer so idyllic . Exurbs just beyond the suburban fringe, like Noblesville, Indiana at one time, become suburban and start having traffic jams and a need for huge public investments through taxes. Property values increase, but unless you sell you cannot reap the benefits of such. Borrowing against the market value simply puts you in debt and could lead to foreclosure.

Quote:What's the Democratic political class of worth these days? How much is AOC worth today? So, why do you think AOC was showing off her fancy tax the rich dress and shaking her booty in front of the cameras? Was she doing it to entertain me or doing it for the fame and fortune she's set to receive from the donor/ruling class? What's Omar worth today? What are the Clinton's worth today? What are the Obama's worth today? What is Bernie Sanders worth today? What is Pelosi worth today? What is Maxine Waters worth today? What is Al Sharpton worth today?  Oh, what were they worth before entering office as Democrats or started working for the Left? Any idea? How much are all the people currently doing business with them one way or another  worth today? Any idea?

It is wrong to put a cash valuation on people. Fair remuneration for work is a different matter, and it is worth noting that much of the supposed prosperity of America is the result of people being overworked and underpaid while toiling under harsh management. A huge chunk of income, especially for the more old-fashioned elites of America, is economic rent which results from monopoly or near-monopoly.

Note well that many of your supposedly salt-of-the-earth types live under precarious conditions in their economic lives if they are not themselves broke. Perhaps all it would take for many of them to have some dignity in life would be a union card. Pay union dues, and you get recognition through an entity better able to negotiate terms of employment than such as most people can, (Collective bargaining is usually well worth the cost of union dues). That is a far better deal than a credit card that you load up with debt. For the same sort of work that their parents do, the kids of union families are more likely to complete high school and attend college. They have better medical and dental care. They are less likely to become juvenile delinquents. For many a union apprenticeship is more appropriate than sure failure at an effort to get a college degree.

I'm not going to value a person strictly for having assets. Capitalism rightly rewards people for putting valuable assets to use instead of wasting them. (Note that I have stated many time before I am satisfied that in a good capitalist system, almost all the people who get or stay rich are capitalists, with few exceptions such as stars of entertainment and some spectacularly-successful professionals such as architects, attorneys, engineers, and physicians). Donald Trump is a horrible person despite all his assets. Aristocratic types in central and Balkan Europe before World War II were often the most fervent supporters of Nazi-like organizations or the Nazis themselves, people who despised small-scale Jewish entrepreneurs that those organizations exterminated. That's before I discuss outright mobsters. I've met migrant farm workers who have their heads on straight and push their kids to do well in school and white meth-heads whose kids have to be sent to custody of others when the "Blue Meanies" (the police) bust their parents. Character is everything, Classic X'er. If I must choose character over wealth and even smarts, then I will take character any time. People of good character don't date porn stars while married, don't grab women by their (crotches), and don't mock the handicapped. People of good character do not disseminate Orwellian Newspeak (unless to expose and denounce it, including through mockery, as with "American interests overseas (meaning corporate investments)". The world is a far nicer place when people have legitimate expectation of integrity in business dealings and when sex connects to love instead of to power     over someone helpless enough to be an object of unbridled lust.

Quote:I tell you what, you fix that OBVIOUS problem before you start talking to US, what you see as the  problem with Us and the use of our wealth. You can say what you want about me and Us but you're part of the problem on the Democratic side because you've going along and keeping them in power for your own sake the entire time. I hope they have as much wealth and power as you claim or you're all pretty much (ruined)when the American Revolution aka the next American Civil War starts and the apple cart starts getting rocked and apples start tumbling down all over the place. You're an old  Marxist Revolutionary of sorts. Have you ever messed with an American Revolutionary? Hint: The American Revolutionary isn't going to read you your rights or warn you before they strike/impact you either

You do not have much wealth. You act as if you have nothing more than consumer choice and an income stream to support that. OK, an adequate income stream would be enough to meet my economic needs and to allow me to have some fun on the side (OK, enlightenment -- I prefer museums to casinos and amusement parks). This said, our economy is run by people who see workers as livestock at best and vermin at worst, and that is not a healthy relationship suitable for the preservation of a republican government as our Founding Fathers saw things. We would be far better off if our executive class had more humane values than they show in their managerial style and their fascistic politics. People with great wealth but no conscience create the chains that Marx says that workers have -- and compel the workers to buy those chains.

That the Other Side could fall heavily for Donald Judas Trump demonstrates their ethical pathology. Something is right with our country when it can vote for a man of kindness, caution, and conscience who fully understands the legal precedents and benign traditions that underpin a workable democracy. Something is wrong when our country elects someone devoid of those virtues.

Nobody here is a Marxist revolutionary. This said, the surest way to get a Marxist revolution is to have a political order that serves only the economic elites who exact everything possible from workers and give the working people just enough to barely survive on -- while those elites indulge in sybaritic excess in plain sight as an exercise of their power, and in which the workers have no recourse through politics. Say what you want about the horrors of the Soviet Union, but the old ways of the Russian Empire made such evil possible. Fascism is of course wish-fulfillment for sociopaths who get gain and the satisfaction of their cruelty.

We liberals don't need any revolution. We seek again a return to public policies that encourage human decency and dignity. We certainly don't want the sort of revolution, really a genocidal fantasy, that you suggest.

(01-20-2022, 06:21 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]

(01-19-2022, 01:47 PM)David Horn Wrote: [ -> ]That's funny, actually.  Your Liberty or Death cult is getting older by the moment.  Eventually, assuming you guys manage to take full control, your rulers will finally prove that they are only in it for the money ... all the money.  The rest of us will watch as you revenge yourselves by taking to the streets, armed to the teeth, and killing all the innocents you encounter ...  but your leaders will still have the money and the power.

That's funny, I'm about 20 years younger than you and Eric. Your wife is the same age as one of my older sisters Shit, you've already got one foot in the grave compared to me. So, who has the money and power on the Democratic side these days? It ain't the millions upon millions of people living below you dude. Like I said, it's not like I'm not familiar with those living in exurbia. My parents were exurban like most suburbans at the time. I've been doing business with them for many years.

 
I'm not your serious political opponent, nor are the Boomers in general.  It's the Millennials yo need to be concerned with.  They are much more liberal, and a much larger generation than yours.

C-Xer Wrote:What's the Democratic political class of worth these days? How much is AOC worth today? So, why do you think AOC was showing off her fancy tax the rich dress and shaking her booty in front of the cameras? Was she doing it to entertain me or doing it for the fame and fortune she's set to receive from the donor/ruling class? What's Omar worth today? What are the Clinton's worth today? What are the Obama's worth today? What is Bernie Sanders worth today? What is Pelosi worth today? What is Maxine Waters worth today? What is Al Sharpton worth today?  Oh, what were they worth before entering office as Democrats or started working for the Left? Any idea? How much are all the people currently doing business with them one way or another worth today? Any idea?

 
I thought you were the capitalist, and making money is the American way.  i have no idea how well-to-do any of these folks are, but I am sure it pales in comparison to the Bazillionaires who pull the strings in the GOP.

C-Xer Wrote:I tell you what, you fix that OBVIOUS problem before you start talking to US, what you see as the  problem with Us and the use of our wealth. You can say what you want about me and Us but you're part of the problem on the Democratic side because you've going along and keeping them in power for your own sake the entire time. I hope they have as much wealth and power as you claim or you're all pretty much fucked when the American Revolution aka the next American Civil War starts and the apple cart starts getting rocked and apples start tumbling down all over the place. You're an old Marxist Revolutionary of sorts. Have you ever messed with an American Revolutionary? Hint: The American Revolutionary isn't going to read you your rights or warn you before they strike/impact you either

No, I'm a democratic socialist, and have been since i was in high school.  Most of Europe was led by people like me before all the right-wing hysteria set in again.  They live much better lives, and (SURPRISE) they have a much higher level of entrepreneurship than we do.  Maybe someday, we'll give it a try too.

MSNBC video discussing a book, with the author, on the potential of a civil war in the USA:





Dangers:

1. It is not the oppressed and powerless who provoke civil wars. It is people seeking to protect their collective privilege who clamp down on dissent by people who refuse to accept or maintain a subordinate status.

2. Political polarization is severe, and high-profile leaders seek to intensify such for their political advantage or personal gain, like Slobodan Milosevic in the former Yugoslavia.

3. Violent rhetoric and outright violence invariably precede the civil war, so there is escalation.

4. The countries can fit all levels of economic development.

5. Weapons are readily available (example: the former Soviet Union, in which anyone in good standing with the Communist Party could possess them lawfully. The USA is awash in privately-held firearms.

6. Countries undergoing civil wars were neither full democracies (USA a few years ago) nor pure tyrannies (North Korea, Saudi Arabia, or Stalin's Soviet Union). They had some partial democracy either arising anew or decaying. The slowly-democratizing USSR under Gorbachev ended up with plenty of civil wars in isolated areas that would have been impossible under Stalin. Under Trump, democracy has declined precipitously, and support for democratic institutions has weakened. 

7. Countries can have various levels of homogeneity from practically none to huge regional and ethnic disparities.

HOW TO SOLVE THE PROBLEM:

South Africa under Apartheid seemed in the 1970's and 1980's the country most on the brink of civil war to most outside observers. Apartheid protected white identity and privilege, but by the late 1980's the white population recognized that it could have racial privilege or profits. De Klerk cut a deal with Mandela in which the latter would abandon socialist revolution as an objective and South Africa would have free multi-racial elections with strong constitutional protections of human rights. The deal worked. 

In our case: strengthen institutions. Take the seams out of the Constitution through legislation and even Constitutional amendment. Improve educational opportunity and put more of the effort into improving lives. We must remove the "NIGYSOB" game (as Eric Berne put it, "Now I've Got You You Son Of a Bitch) from public life. We need what Abraham Lincoln called for -- "a new Birth of Freedom" possible only in legal reforms that make political chicanery impossible so that government of the people, by the people, and for the people shall not perish.

Millions of people cannot acquiesce in their side losing the election. Most people can expect to lose half the elections in which they vote, and it is consummate arrogance to believe that the election that they lost heralds the end of democracy at least as they understand it, which means that things go their way.  

The countries that best escaped civil war did extensive reforms of their political order and did much to improve the lot of those recently treated badly. Such looks like the right choice.

HOW NOT TO SOLVE THE PROBLEM:

1. Do nothing, pretending that the danger will fade 'naturally'. It never does that.

2. Provoke the armed struggle.

(01-20-2022, 09:29 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]I'm not opposed to democracy, I've been actively participating in it along with tens of millions of other Americans for many years, I'm opposed to bribing, entrapment and cheating. So, am I speaking to a Green Party member or a Democratic supporter right now? Oh, are you trying to buy political influence with your own money or are you trying to buy it with someone else's money? If you are a go between, what's your cut of the action?

You and your allies are opposed to democracy. Your Republican Party just blocked what is needed to preserve it from those taking it away. Your side is in favor of cheating, bribing and entrapment.

You do me too much credit. It is your side that does all the buying, and makes all the buying possible with your blocks to reforms for decades now. I am a Democrat right now.

(01-21-2022, 10:50 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]MSNBC video discussing a book, with the author, on the potential of a civil war in the USA:





Dangers:

1. It is not the oppressed and powerless who provoke civil wars. It is people seeking to protect their collective privilege who clamp down on dissent by people who refuse to accept or maintain a subordinate status.

2. Political polarization is severe, and high-profile leaders seek to intensify such for their political advantage or personal gain, like Slobodan Milosevic in the former Yugoslavia.

3. Violent rhetoric and outright violence invariably precede the civil war, so there is escalation.

4. The countries can fit all levels of economic development.

5. Weapons are readily available (example: the former Soviet Union, in which anyone in good standing with the Communist Party could possess them lawfully. The USA is awash in privately-held firearms.

6. Countries undergoing civil wars were neither full democracies (USA a few years ago) nor pure tyrannies (North Korea, Saudi Arabia, or Stalin's Soviet Union). They had some partial democracy either arising anew or decaying. The slowly-democratizing USSR under Gorbachev ended up with plenty of civil wars in isolated areas that would have been impossible under Stalin. Under Trump, democracy has declined precipitously, and support for democratic institutions has weakened. 

7. Countries can have various levels of homogeneity from practically none to huge regional and ethnic disparities.

HOW TO SOLVE THE PROBLEM:

South Africa under Apartheid seemed in the 1970's and 1980's the country most on the brink of civil war to most outside observers. Apartheid protected white identity and privilege, but by the late 1980's the white population recognized that it could have racial privilege or profits. De Klerk cut a deal with Mandela in which the latter would abandon socialist revolution as an objective and South Africa would have free multi-racial elections with strong constitutional protections of human rights. The deal worked. 

In our case: strengthen institutions. Take the seams out of the Constitution through legislation and even Constitutional amendment. Improve educational opportunity and put more of the effort into improving lives. We must remove the "NIGYSOB" game (as Eric Berne put it, "Now I've Got You You Son Of a Bitch) from public life. We need what Abraham Lincoln called for -- "a new Birth of Freedom" possible only in legal reforms that make political chicanery impossible so that government of the people, by the people, and for the people shall not perish.

Millions of people cannot acquiesce in their side losing the election. Most people can expect to lose half the elections in which they vote, and it is consummate arrogance to believe that the election that they lost heralds the end of democracy at least as they understand it, which means that things go their way.  

The countries that best escaped civil war did extensive reforms of their political order and did much to improve the lot of those recently treated badly. Such looks like the right choice.

HOW NOT TO SOLVE THE PROBLEM:

1. Do nothing, pretending that the danger will fade 'naturally'. It never does that.

2. Provoke the armed struggle.

PB, who is escalating right now? Joe Biden, Nancy Pelosi, Chuck Schumer, the Progressive Democrats who are anything but progressive or Donald Trump. Who has been escalating for a while now? Who has been using violence to legalize/ normalize crime and criminal activity? It's not Us, we are currently idle and putting up with Them and all their shit right now and watching Them fucking Themselves and proving Us about Them. How long have I been warning you about what a couple of Them were talking about/ informing you about right now. If they cared, they would have been doing what I've been doing for many years Did you notice the racist slant? So, how much value do the American people place on a couple of Them who happen to be white, who happen to be a man and a woman who happen to work for a Left Wing news outlet that's going broke since they're ignoring everything that truly matters to most Americans and Americans are no longer watching them. You should be breathing a sigh of relief because thanks to a couple of Americans, we ain't there yet.

(01-21-2022, 01:27 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]

(01-20-2022, 09:29 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]I'm not opposed to democracy, I've been actively participating in it along with tens of millions of other Americans for many years, I'm opposed to bribing, entrapment and cheating. So, am I speaking to a Green Party member or a Democratic supporter right now? Oh, are you trying to buy political influence with your own money or are you trying to buy it with someone else's money? If you are a go between, what's your cut of the action?

You and your allies are opposed to democracy. Your Republican Party just blocked what is needed to preserve it from those taking it away. Your side is in favor of cheating, bribing and entrapment.

You do me too much credit. It is your side that does all the buying, and makes all the buying possible with your blocks to reforms for decades now. I am a Democrat right now.

Look where you're at today. How much credit do you have left?

(01-21-2022, 02:53 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]

(01-21-2022, 01:27 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]

(01-20-2022, 09:29 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]I'm not opposed to democracy, I've been actively participating in it along with tens of millions of other Americans for many years, I'm opposed to bribing, entrapment and cheating. So, am I speaking to a Green Party member or a Democratic supporter right now? Oh, are you trying to buy political influence with your own money or are you trying to buy it with someone else's money? If you are a go between, what's your cut of the action?

You and your allies are opposed to democracy. Your Republican Party just blocked what is needed to preserve it from those taking it away. Your side is in favor of cheating, bribing and entrapment.

You do me too much credit. It is your side that does all the buying, and makes all the buying possible with your blocks to reforms for decades now. I am a Democrat right now.

Look where you're at today. How much credit do you have left?

You haven't answered any of my questions. That gives you no credit.

Why I Won't Vote Republican....

Aside from constant Republican efforts to limit voting rights in many Red States, by curtailing early voting, absentee ballots and by creating degrees of ID requirements, which are primarily aimed at the poor and minority elements of our population, which should be enough, in and of itself to reject Republican candidates.

The primary reason, I will NEVER vote Republican, is their attitude of hate and division. Republican leadership willfully ignored the ineptitude, arrogance and politics of racial and anti-immigrant pandering, which candidate and then President Donald Trump fostered among his rabid base.

Then Republican leaders not only stood by, in the 2020 election while Trump spread lies about the legitimacy of the election, which was validated by the electoral college, and our courts, but they actively joined him in perpetuating the Big Lie of a faulty election. Added to this blatant deceitfulness, was the President's vocal support for and fueling of, the flames of the January 6, 2021 Capitol Hill insurrection, designed to overthrow a legitimate democratic presidential election, to retain Donald Trump in office.

Republicans have opposed the science of vaccinations against the lethal Covid virus, tried to limit mask mandates designed to slow the spread of the disease, and in general promoted a stance, which has resulted in our hospitals being filled with ill anti-vaxxers, and our medical staffs being overworked and burdened by these same people.

So, no thank you. I will never vote Republican ever again, under any circumstances. The Republican party is the party of lies and lack of integrity. It is the party of supporting one percenters and the wealthy over the average American. It is the party against affordable healthcare and reasonably priced pharmaceuticals.
JUST SAY, "NO" TO THE REPUBLICAN PARTY IN EVERY ELECTION!
David R. Penland