Generational Theory Forum: The Fourth Turning Forum: A message board discussing generations and the Strauss Howe generational theory

(04-21-2020, 02:18 AM)taramarie Wrote: [ -> ]Because he thinks it makes him better. Kinda sad really. He needs therapy. That comes from being hurt.

Do I really? I see that you're an expert on me and my feelings. So, are we going to get into psychoanalyzing each other now that you've been foolish enough to open that door with me? You seem like a more decent person who should know better and stay out of an ongoing disagreement between me and a group of liberal posters.

(04-20-2020, 11:41 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]I do think he represents a lot of potentially-violent right-wing wackos out there, mostly, but by no means entirely, in red or purple America, even though he does so in his own peculiar way, and not always off the deep end or identical with the worst of them. We see them coming out in these demonstrations these days. But yeah, if he sticks to business and stays out of trouble, then we won't lose this guy who is so easy and fun to argue with and refute.

I don't know why he brags how much stronger and more violent he is. I don't know what he thinks that means to anybody. He can't punch or shoot anyone through the computer. I don't usually like to talk about other posters like this, but since he did threaten me and others in his silly way...... and not for the first time....

Eric, you don't have to worry about us. We don't live where the bulk of the blues live these days. That's been my point to you along. Taramarie thinks/views it as something else but that's Taramarie.

(04-21-2020, 02:39 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]I don't have a problem with posting here despite all the anti-white, anti-conservative, anti-libertarian, anti-Trump, anti-American rhetoric that's been written all over this place, I know that you think your innocent, think your better, think your more intelligent and more loving and all that than evil, fascist, racist, deplorable old me.

Having strong political views is par for the course. Opinions on conservatism, libertarianism and Trump are all fair game. Hacking away at race is off limits, and similar rants against basic patriotism should be as well. Let's settle one thing right now: being a liberal or progressive is not anti-American. The same applies to conservatism, libertarianism and being a Trump supporter. I will certainly take issue with a bunch of yahoos marching around and trying to open the country in the middle of a pandemic, but not because I dislike their political views, though I do. I think they're being suicidal and, potentially, infecting and killing others in the process.

Try to separate actions from words, and ease-off on personal attacks. That's it. Easy peasy!

I recall many times, often on these forums, when conservatives would lecture people about the supposed hedonism of the left and the need for personal responsibility and service, and I find it ironic that now during an actual crisis when all Americans are called to self sacrifice for the greater good it's the right that is having a meltdown because they can't get a haircut or go to a restaurant.

(04-21-2020, 10:20 AM)gabrielle Wrote: [ -> ]I recall many times, often on these forums, when conservatives would lecture people about the supposed hedonism of the left and the need for personal responsibility and service, and I find it ironic that now during an actual crisis when all Americans are called to self sacrifice for the greater good it's the right that is having a meltdown because they can't get a haircut or go to a restaurant.

It is par for the course. Republicans got to posture on defense, but when it came time to commit to the Domino Theory, it was the Democrats that started the hot wars of Korea and Vietnam. The hedonism of the Unraveling and concentration on economics is basically selfish. Actually working to say build infrastructure in the high is not. Fighting for civil rights, women’s rights, clean streams…. Basically the Awakening is not the sort of selfish materialism that the conservatives are about.

I keep going back to that JFK line. “Ask not what your country can do for you. Ask what you can do for your country.” It is almost a dividing line. It was what made America great.

(04-21-2020, 10:20 AM)gabrielle Wrote: [ -> ]I recall many times, often on these forums, when conservatives would lecture people about the supposed hedonism of the left and the need for personal responsibility and service, and I find it ironic that now during an actual crisis when all Americans are called to self sacrifice for the greater good it's the right that is having a meltdown because they can't get a haircut or go to a restaurant.

How much longer do you expect working people to continue going without and sacrificing? You don't seem to be looking at the big picture as usual and you don't seem to be going through what their going through right now either.

(04-21-2020, 02:35 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]

(04-21-2020, 10:20 AM)gabrielle Wrote: [ -> ]I recall many times, often on these forums, when conservatives would lecture people about the supposed hedonism of the left and the need for personal responsibility and service, and I find it ironic that now during an actual crisis when all Americans are called to self sacrifice for the greater good it's the right that is having a meltdown because they can't get a haircut or go to a restaurant.

How much longer do you expect working  people to continue going without and sacrificing? You don't seem to be looking at the big picture as usual and you don't seem to be going through what they're going through right now either.

The big picture shows us the need for sacrifice. We are all going through this together.

Conservatives almost never see the big picture; that's why they are conservatives. They react to some personal incident and change their views on what's good for the country and their own interest based on that (e.g. Aspie Millennial). They are parochial and provincial. Rural people tend toward that direction; that's why they vote red by 4 to 1 margins.

(04-21-2020, 03:48 AM)taramarie Wrote: [ -> ]Im so sorry you are so torn up inside. Seek help. Dont take it out on others in such a way.

I'm sorry that I don't feel all torn up inside like you must think right now. I haven't felt all torn up inside as you say for many, many years. I've been dishing back out what the liberals have been dishing out here for many years. I assume that you must view the liberals as the victims here. It's the only things that makes sense based on the position that you're taking with me. I must admit that I'm not pleased with all the restrictions and all the mixed signals and uncertainty that politicians and so called experts are largely guilty of fueling these days.

(04-21-2020, 03:03 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]

(04-21-2020, 03:48 AM)taramarie Wrote: [ -> ]Im so sorry you are so torn up inside. Seek help. Dont take it out on others in such a way.

I'm sorry that I don't feel all torn up inside like you must think right now. I haven't felt all torn up inside as you say for many, many years. I've been dishing back out what the liberals have been dishing out for many years.

Our dish is delicious. Try it you'll like it

(04-21-2020, 02:51 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]

(04-21-2020, 02:35 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]

(04-21-2020, 10:20 AM)gabrielle Wrote: [ -> ]I recall many times, often on these forums, when conservatives would lecture people about the supposed hedonism of the left and the need for personal responsibility and service, and I find it ironic that now during an actual crisis when all Americans are called to self sacrifice for the greater good it's the right that is having a meltdown because they can't get a haircut or go to a restaurant.

How much longer do you expect working  people to continue going without and sacrificing? You don't seem to be looking at the big picture as usual and you don't seem to be going through what they're going through right now either.

The big picture shows us the need for sacrifice. We are all going through this together.

Conservatives almost never see the big picture; that's why they are conservatives. They react to some personal incident and change their views on what's good for the country and their own interest based on that (e.g. Aspie Millennial). They are parochial and provincial. Rural people tend toward that direction; that's why they vote red by 4 to 1 margins.

Or they see an old big picture. They want to continue to live as they always have. This means ignoring problems they haven't had before, not seeing them or pretending not to see them. If it is a problem that exists only in population dense areas, then the problem is easily considered invisible.

(04-21-2020, 02:51 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]

(04-21-2020, 02:35 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]

(04-21-2020, 10:20 AM)gabrielle Wrote: [ -> ]I recall many times, often on these forums, when conservatives would lecture people about the supposed hedonism of the left and the need for personal responsibility and service, and I find it ironic that now during an actual crisis when all Americans are called to self sacrifice for the greater good it's the right that is having a meltdown because they can't get a haircut or go to a restaurant.

How much longer do you expect working  people to continue going without and sacrificing? You don't seem to be looking at the big picture as usual and you don't seem to be going through what they're going through right now either.

The big picture shows us the need for sacrifice. We are all going through this together.

Conservatives almost never see the big picture; that's why they are conservatives. They react to some personal incident and change their views on what's good for the country and their own interest based on that (e.g. Aspie Millennial). They are parochial and provincial. Rural people tend toward that direction; that's why they vote red by 4 to 1 margins.

We aren't all going through this the same way together. The so called big picture relating to blues in particular has always seemed limited compared to the Bigger Picture as it relates to the bulk of the country these days. You don't seem like the type who could kill a wild animal, gut it, skin it and butcher it without a problem. I doubt you would be able to go out and find fish to catch and be able to process them to eat either. Yes. The rural people may seem parochial and provincial and irrelevant to you.

(04-21-2020, 02:39 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]

(04-20-2020, 11:59 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]

(04-20-2020, 06:45 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]

(04-20-2020, 03:51 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]Suggesting that people deserve violence against them should get one in hot water. Just think of this: someone in a bar who says "someone out to plug the President right between the eyes" might find that after someone sends a message to the Secret Service he gets a stern warning from the Secret Service. The local gun stores get warnings not to sell guns or ammo to one because such would be bad for their image if something went wrong. This applies just the same when the President is Obama or Trump.

But if it is about any potential for a mass shooting, then perhaps the FBI or the relevant State Troopers start asking some questions and giving some warnings such as "We know what you are thinking, and you had better not carry it out".  
I leave my discussion of bad things happening to Trump to unlikely scenarios (such as a military coup) in which I could never be a participant... or to Divine Retribution.

Dude, for all you know, I could be an FBI agent.

Dude, if you were an FBI agent you wouldn't be posting here.

There are programs to detect key words suggesting a blow-up. You may have used some of those words.

Why don't you take a time-out from posting and discover something that can enrich your life -- like classical music?

I don't have a problem with posting here despite all the anti-white, anti-conservative, anti-libertarian, anti-Trump, anti-American rhetoric that's been  written all over this place, I know that you think your innocent, think your better, think your more intelligent and more loving and all that than evil, fascist, racist, deplorable old me.

Obviously the context matters with words with the potential to offend, as The Seven Words You Can't Say on Radio of the late George Carlin shows. Said without context and without emotion they lack their ability to offend. That is the point of the joke.  The word bomb is harmless if in reference to the cinematic version of CATS but use it in the context of a building that has people in it, then the BATF would be interested -- so interested that you might get a visit with such warnings as "We know what you are up to, and we are watching you. If you do something suspicious an agent will arrest you."  

If anything deserves no loyalty it is 'race'. Doing bad things to people because of 'race' is an abomination. As for my opposition to conservatism I am quite conservative on drugs, child protection, educational content, and law and order. Any conservatism that protects oppression is abominable. As with other ideologies, libertarianism is open to scrutiny for its philosophical basis and its political results. Just think of Fyodor Dostoevsky in his veiled criticism of the radical movements of Russia circa 1880; he proved correct.  Nothing says that vile people cannot hijack libertarianism to enact something cruelly inhuman. 

Donald Trump seems to me a man with few redeeming values. His only defense is that "something else is really worse". OK, so he is better than some Grand Dragon or an admirer of a cause with a huge body count behind it... It is easy to find fault with him, and I would advise Trump supporters to remind us of the tolerance that they showed for Barack Obama. We would be better off with Mitt Romney seeking re-election and with the near certainty of such than the one disastrous term of Donald Trump. Trump is a lesson on how not to choose a President, and how not to behave as President. Such happens when settling scores against a predecessor who needled a fragile ego matters more than does meeting the worst disaster in American history.

Prepare yourself for the defeat of Donald Trump in November. There's more to life than hero-worship, especially when the hero is suspect.

(04-21-2020, 04:51 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]

(04-21-2020, 02:51 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]

(04-21-2020, 02:35 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]

(04-21-2020, 10:20 AM)gabrielle Wrote: [ -> ]I recall many times, often on these forums, when conservatives would lecture people about the supposed hedonism of the left and the need for personal responsibility and service, and I find it ironic that now during an actual crisis when all Americans are called to self sacrifice for the greater good it's the right that is having a meltdown because they can't get a haircut or go to a restaurant.

How much longer do you expect working  people to continue going without and sacrificing? You don't seem to be looking at the big picture as usual and you don't seem to be going through what they're going through right now either.

The big picture shows us the need for sacrifice. We are all going through this together.

Conservatives almost never see the big picture; that's why they are conservatives. They react to some personal incident and change their views on what's good for the country and their own interest based on that (e.g. Aspie Millennial). They are parochial and provincial. Rural people tend toward that direction; that's why they vote red by 4 to 1 margins.

We aren't all going through this the same way together. The so called big picture relating to blues in particular has always seemed limited compared to the Bigger Picture as it relates to the bulk of the country these days. You don't seem like the type who could kill a wild animal, gut it, skin it and butcher it without a problem. I doubt you would be able to go out and find fish to catch and be able to process them to eat either. Yes. The rural people may seem parochial and provincial and irrelevant to you.

They are parochial and provincial in their outlook, which perhaps results partly from being involved in those activities; but I suspect that's not the reason, because therefore blues hunkered down in cubicles are just as involved in their activities.

No; insular, parochial and provincial red attitudes result from their restricted views of the world, being stuck in set ways of regressive thinking, inherited and enforced by your parents and/or local community. Blues are aware of the larger world, and thus see the bigger picture, are less authoritarian and more willing to question and see new conditions, and thus are also far less xenophobic than you Trump supporters are, by a long shot. Living on the coasts and near the waters and more urban means we blues are exposed to more kinds of people and ideas than you reds. And of course, more exposed to this virus problem too, although it's everywhere.

Seeing the big picture as we do, we are able to see the virtue of sacrificing for the greater good of society, while conservatives are less able to see this. By and large though, some conservatives are seeing this now too.

Not only am I indeed not the type who could do those things to animals, I am not the type who would. Thus I would not even take the time to learn. My opinion is, let the poor creatures alone and let them live. They can take care of themselves if we leave them alone. Nature now is to be preserved, not exploited.

(04-21-2020, 04:51 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]

(04-21-2020, 02:51 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]

(04-21-2020, 02:35 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]

(04-21-2020, 10:20 AM)gabrielle Wrote: [ -> ]I recall many times, often on these forums, when conservatives would lecture people about the supposed hedonism of the left and the need for personal responsibility and service, and I find it ironic that now during an actual crisis when all Americans are called to self sacrifice for the greater good it's the right that is having a meltdown because they can't get a haircut or go to a restaurant.

How much longer do you expect working  people to continue going without and sacrificing? You don't seem to be looking at the big picture as usual and you don't seem to be going through what they're going through right now either.

The big picture shows us the need for sacrifice. We are all going through this together.

Conservatives almost never see the big picture; that's why they are conservatives. They react to some personal incident and change their views on what's good for the country and their own interest based on that (e.g. Aspie Millennial). They are parochial and provincial. Rural people tend toward that direction; that's why they vote red by 4 to 1 margins.

We aren't all going through this the same way together. The so called big picture relating to blues in particular has always seemed limited compared to the Bigger Picture as it relates to the bulk of the country these days. You don't seem like the type who could kill a wild animal, gut it, skin it and butcher it without a problem. I doubt you would be able to go out and find fish to catch and be able to process them to eat either. Yes. The rural people may seem parochial and provincial and irrelevant to you.

Well, if all the "reds" know how to hunt and fish, then when the shit goes down and America dissolves into total socio-economic collapse you guys will instantly assemble into a sustainable hunter-gatherer society and everything will be hunky-dory, right?  Perhaps you can start raising crops to buy protection from local warlords against the roving brigands.

Here's the Bigger Picture: Lift social distancing too soon and the virus surges back, even stronger.  The health care system is overwhelmed, and we have "many more body bags," as the director of the WHO put it.  A large number of those in the body bags will be health care workers, a generation of medical expertise that cannot be replaced.  If you think the suffering and sacrifice we are dealing with now is bad, just you wait and see how much worse it can get.

(04-21-2020, 07:27 PM)gabrielle Wrote: [ -> ]Well, if all the "reds" know how to hunt and fish, then when the shit goes down and America dissolves into total socio-economic collapse you guys will instantly assemble into a sustainable hunter-gatherer society and everything will be hunky-dory, right?  Perhaps you can start raising crops to buy protection from local warlords against the roving brigands.

Here's the Bigger Picture: Lift social distancing too soon and the virus surges back, even stronger.  The health care system is overwhelmed, and we have "many more body bags," as the director of the WHO put it.  A large number of those in the body bags will be health care workers, a generation of medical expertise that cannot be replaced.  If you think the suffering and sacrifice we are dealing with now is bad, just you wait and see how much worse it can get.

I keep going back to the red tendency to not see problems that require a big government to solve, and to deny science which says the problems will exist.

Rachel Monday night ran will a little “Earth One” vs “Earth Two” theme.  I think it is DC Comics that went for a while with two parallel story lines, with different characters, uniforms, plot lines, histories, etc….   (DC is not alone.  It is a common theme in SF, for example Star Trek has it’s Mirror Universe.) The two realities had nothing to do with each other save for a few cross reality plot lines.  

Rachel suggested the real world and the conservative world are like that.  If you don’t want to spend money to solve a problem, the reds can save money by pretending the problem doesn’t exist.  Bridges collapsing, global warming, pollution, guns, lots of problems exist more in more densely populated regions, or only develop slowly enough to pretend they are not looming.  Thus it is quite possible to say if a problem is not confronting them directly, they aren’t going to pay for anyone to solve the problem.

This attitude was quite possible to extend itself indefinitely before Coronavirus.  Again, I was deep into creating an Information Age variation of S&H for what happens when there is a Crisis without a Trigger and Regeneracy.  With nukes making a Crisis War unlikely, what would come along that would be comparable to a Lexington and Concord, a Fort Sumter, a Pearl Harbor?

Right now, some reds are very hesitant to embrace the Conoravirus as the Trigger, as seeing the Unraveling ethic of selfishness and problem denial as rendered obsolete.  The virus is significant, scientifically provable, and culture changing.  They are trying to pretend the problem out of existence as they have so many problems in the recent past.  They are not willing to accept the medical worker and other first responders as heroes, and a culture where you are expected to sacrifice for the common good.  They want to (with apologies to Aerosmith) Dream On.

I don’t see them making pretend well enough.  That apparently doesn’t mean they won’t try.  In the three last Crises, there were ugly times when the Crisis War seemed long and hard, and the best way to solve it was to surrender to the forces of royalty, slavery or fascism.  America didn’t quit the last three times, and I doubt they will quit now.  This does not mean that a few blind fools will cling to the old way of looking at things, cheering on the kings, slave owners and dictators.  I talk of Atlanta during the Civil War and Berlin during World War II as necessary prerequisites for submerging the old world view.  World views are that stubborn.  It takes a major disaster to change a culture, a proof that the Old Way will not work, that a change is necessary and to be forced.  

I do not doubt the virus has the capability for similar disaster.  The concept of creating an “Earth Two” alternate view of a world were no problems can exist if the perfect blindfold is worn will become much more unpalatable when the problem bites the blindfolded people in the rear.  Then, but only then, will they consider taking the blindfold off.

Maybe.

Someday.

Eventually.

(04-21-2020, 07:27 PM)gabrielle Wrote: [ -> ]

(04-21-2020, 04:51 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]

(04-21-2020, 02:51 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]

(04-21-2020, 02:35 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]

(04-21-2020, 10:20 AM)gabrielle Wrote: [ -> ]I recall many times, often on these forums, when conservatives would lecture people about the supposed hedonism of the left and the need for personal responsibility and service, and I find it ironic that now during an actual crisis when all Americans are called to self sacrifice for the greater good it's the right that is having a meltdown because they can't get a haircut or go to a restaurant.

How much longer do you expect working  people to continue going without and sacrificing? You don't seem to be looking at the big picture as usual and you don't seem to be going through what they're going through right now either.

The big picture shows us the need for sacrifice. We are all going through this together.

Conservatives almost never see the big picture; that's why they are conservatives. They react to some personal incident and change their views on what's good for the country and their own interest based on that (e.g. Aspie Millennial). They are parochial and provincial. Rural people tend toward that direction; that's why they vote red by 4 to 1 margins.

We aren't all going through this the same way together. The so called big picture relating to blues in particular has always seemed limited compared to the Bigger Picture as it relates to the bulk of the country these days. You don't seem like the type who could kill a wild animal, gut it, skin it and butcher it without a problem. I doubt you would be able to go out and find fish to catch and be able to process them to eat either. Yes. The rural people may seem parochial and provincial and irrelevant to you.

Well, if all the "reds" know how to hunt and fish, then when the shit goes down and America dissolves into total socio-economic collapse you guys will instantly assemble into a sustainable hunter-gatherer society and everything will be hunky-dory, right?  Perhaps you can start raising crops to buy protection from local warlords against the roving brigands.

Here's the Bigger Picture: Lift social distancing too soon and the virus surges back, even stronger.  The health care system is overwhelmed, and we have "many more body bags," as the director of the WHO put it.  A large number of those in the body bags will be health care workers, a generation of medical expertise that cannot be replaced.  If you think the suffering and sacrifice we are dealing with now is bad, just you wait and see how much worse it can get.

The reds know how to hunt, fish, trap, manufacture just about everything, fix/repair, invest, manage money and business, operate machinery, grow crops, work with concrete, mine, cut and process lumber, engineer, manage hospitals and nurses, nurse, doctor and so forth. I don't think blues understand how much the reds do and how much the reds know how to do these days.

(04-21-2020, 10:42 PM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]

(04-21-2020, 07:27 PM)gabrielle Wrote: [ -> ]Well, if all the "reds" know how to hunt and fish, then when the shit goes down and America dissolves into total socio-economic collapse you guys will instantly assemble into a sustainable hunter-gatherer society and everything will be hunky-dory, right?  Perhaps you can start raising crops to buy protection from local warlords against the roving brigands.

Here's the Bigger Picture: Lift social distancing too soon and the virus surges back, even stronger.  The health care system is overwhelmed, and we have "many more body bags," as the director of the WHO put it.  A large number of those in the body bags will be health care workers, a generation of medical expertise that cannot be replaced.  If you think the suffering and sacrifice we are dealing with now is bad, just you wait and see how much worse it can get.

I keep going back to the red tendency to not see problems that require a big government to solve, and to deny science which says the problems will exist.

Rachel Monday night ran will a little “Earth One” vs “Earth Two” theme.  I think it is DC Comics that went for a while with two parallel story lines, with different characters, uniforms, plot lines, histories, etc….   (DC is not alone.  It is a common theme in SF, for example Star Trek has it’s Mirror Universe.) The two realities had nothing to do with each other save for a few cross reality plot lines.  

Rachel suggested the real world and the conservative world are like that.  If you don’t want to spend money to solve a problem, the reds can save money by pretending the problem doesn’t exist.  Bridges collapsing, global warming, pollution, guns, lots of problems exist more in more densely populated regions, or only develop slowly enough to pretend they are not looming.  Thus it is quite possible to say if a problem is not confronting them directly, they aren’t going to pay for anyone to solve the problem.

This attitude was quite possible to extend itself indefinitely before Coronavirus.  Again, I was deep into creating an Information Age variation of S&H for what happens when there is a Crisis without a Trigger and Regeneracy.  With nukes making a Crisis War unlikely, what would come along that would be comparable to a Lexington and Concord, a Fort Sumter, a Pearl Harbor?

Right now, some reds are very hesitant to embrace the Conoravirus as the Trigger, as seeing the Unraveling ethic of selfishness and problem denial as rendered obsolete.  The virus is significant, scientifically provable, and culture changing.  They are trying to pretend the problem out of existence as they have so many problems in the recent past.  They are not willing to accept the medical worker and other first responders as heroes, and a culture where you are expected to sacrifice for the common good.  They want to (with apologies to Aerosmith) Dream On.

I don’t see them making pretend well enough.  That apparently doesn’t mean they won’t try.  In the three last Crises, there were ugly times when the Crisis War seemed long and hard, and the best way to solve it was to surrender to the forces of royalty, slavery or fascism.  America didn’t quit the last three times, and I doubt they will quit now.  This does not mean that a few blind fools will cling to the old way of looking at things, cheering on the kings, slave owners and dictators.  I talk of Atlanta during the Civil War and Berlin during World War II as necessary prerequisites for submerging the old world view.  World views are that stubborn.  It takes a major disaster to change a culture, a proof that the Old Way will not work, that a change is necessary and to be forced.  

I do not doubt the virus has the capability for similar disaster.  The concept of creating an “Earth Two” alternate view of a world were no problems can exist if the perfect blindfold is worn will become much more unpalatable when the problem bites the blindfolded people in the rear.  Then, but only then, will they consider taking the blindfold off.

Maybe.

Someday.

Eventually.

At this point, I'd be more likely to say it's the trigger or initial cause and say that we are now entering the 4T. In my opinion, big government hasn't done a very good job up to this point.

(04-22-2020, 01:17 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]At this point, I'd be more likely to say it's the trigger or initial cause and say that we are now entering the 4T. In my opinion, big government hasn't done a very good job up to this point.

I would go further.  I would say the economic thinking daydream believers who ignore science when they don’t want to believe a problem exists failed miserably and are still protesting to make the disaster more complete.  

I think you see the Coronavirus well enough, but you are still unwilling to see, say, global warming.  It is not quick enough.  I does not force itself on you as much as the virus does.  Some see neither, but stand ready to ignore the science, to cry hoax or fake news and do nothing.  They won’t until the scale of the disaster is of the Atlanta or Berlin scale.  I don’t think the rest of us want to let it get that big.

(04-21-2020, 06:53 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]They are parochial and provincial in their outlook, which perhaps results partly from being involved in those activities; but I suspect that's not the reason, because therefore blues hunkered down in cubicles are just as involved in their activities.

No; insular, parochial and provincial red attitudes result from their restricted views of the world, being stuck in set ways of regressive thinking, inherited and enforced by your parents and/or local community. Blues are aware of the larger world, and thus see the bigger picture, are less authoritarian and more willing to question and see new conditions, and thus are also far less xenophobic than you Trump supporters are, by a long shot. Living on the coasts and near the waters and more urban means we blues are exposed to more kinds of people and ideas than you reds. And of course, more exposed to this virus problem too, although it's everywhere.

Seeing the big picture as we do, we are able to see the virtue of sacrificing for the greater good of society, while conservatives are less able to see this. By and large though, some conservatives are seeing this now too.

Not only am I indeed not the type who could do those things to animals, I am not the type who would. Thus I would not even take the time to learn. My opinion is, let the poor creatures alone and let them live. They can take care of themselves if we leave them alone. Nature now is to be preserved, not exploited.

To me, you and others here seem to be a lot like them based on your descriptions of them. I'd say their understanding of you and others here are pretty accurate as well. Like I said, they're no longer leading the charge/crusade like they were during the Bush years.

(04-21-2020, 10:20 AM)gabrielle Wrote: [ -> ]I recall many times, often on these forums, when conservatives would lecture people about the supposed hedonism of the left and the need for personal responsibility and service, and I find it ironic that now during an actual crisis when all Americans are called to self sacrifice for the greater good it's the right that is having a meltdown because they can't get a haircut or go to a restaurant.

My theory is that both right and left have collectivistic and individualistic impulses. The leftist's collectivistic impulses focus on equality, he doesn't want strong people to use their natural advantage to oppress the weak, while his individualistic impulses focus on hedonism and the desire for self-actualisation. The rightist's collectivistic impulses focus on imposing purity, and his individualistic impulses don't want society to interfere with "reaping what you sow". So, if someone goes to a restaurant and catches Covid, he just got what he deserved according to the right.