Generational Theory Forum: The Fourth Turning Forum: A message board discussing generations and the Strauss Howe generational theory

(01-25-2022, 09:11 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]

(01-25-2022, 07:44 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]Ha ha, no, I failed your class, Classic

I know you did which is why you tend to vote the way you do these days.

and always have, not just "these days"....

(01-26-2022, 03:21 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]

(01-26-2022, 11:23 AM)David Horn Wrote: [ -> ]Yes, some places are decidedly Blue and others Red.  But many places are Purple, and I don't know how that plays long term.

It's hard to say. I would put it many places are decidedly Blue and others Red.  But some places are Purple.

The purple states like Texas, Nevada, North Carolina and Arizona are places people are moving TO, and they are moving slowly toward blue. The purple states like Ohio, Iowa, and even PA, MI and WI are places people are moving from, and they are trending more toward red. And then there's Florida.... white retirees moving in, and immigrants moving in..... still seems trending red.....

Virginia is still Purple, but it's very geographical here. Cities and Northern Virginia (NoVA) are Blue, and most of the rest is Red (very Red in the far Western counties). The Red areas have declining populations and Blue growing ones, so Virginia will get Bluer. Florida, on other hand, has similar geographic but very different demographic conditions. The arrivers tend to be older or escapees from dictatorships in the South and Caribbean. I'm not sure that's defining. We'll see. I agree with the rest.

(01-27-2022, 11:12 AM)David Horn Wrote: [ -> ]

(01-26-2022, 03:21 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]

(01-26-2022, 11:23 AM)David Horn Wrote: [ -> ]Yes, some places are decidedly Blue and others Red.  But many places are Purple, and I don't know how that plays long term.

It's hard to say. I would put it many places are decidedly Blue and others Red.  But some places are Purple.

The purple states like Texas, Nevada, North Carolina and Arizona are places people are moving TO, and they are moving slowly toward blue. The purple states like Ohio, Iowa, and even PA, MI and WI are places people are moving from, and they are trending more toward red. And then there's Florida.... white retirees moving in, and immigrants moving in..... still seems trending red.....

Virginia is still Purple, but it's very geographical here.  Cities and Northern Virginia (NoVA) are Blue, and most of the rest is Red (very Red in the far Western counties).  The Red areas have declining populations and Blue growing ones, so Virginia will get Bluer.  Florida, on other hand, has similar geographic but very different demographic conditions.  The arrivers tend to be older or escapees from dictatorships in the South and Caribbean.  I'm not sure that's defining.  We'll see.  I agree with the rest.

Bluer as in more darker in terms of peoples skin tone or bluer as in more Progressive minded and big government oriented/related like Washington DC? In Minnesota, the rural Democrats are dying off and the rural communities that were controlled by them for several decades are turning into ghost towns. As a result, the more economic minded and more American minded Republicans and their voters are taking over and the economy is becoming more economically diverse. So, are you familiar with what's going on between Buckhead and Atlanta these days? Buckhead has formally declared its independence and is in the process of breaking free from from Atlanta. I think it's a good gauge what's to come and what to expect as time goes on.

(01-26-2022, 11:26 AM)David Horn Wrote: [ -> ]

(01-25-2022, 04:34 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]

(01-25-2022, 03:30 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]

(01-24-2022, 11:26 AM)David Horn Wrote: [ -> ]FWIW, I'm noticing that everyday ordinary people are starting to question why we are still trying to be one country.  I haven't seen that in the past.  The real question, when does that become an issue for the majority (or at least, a large minority)?  If and when it does, the USA is nearing its end as a united cluster of diverse states, and what follows may be chaos.

I notice that watching a documentary about the native first peoples who lived in Arkansas, Texas, Louisiana and Oklahoma, and they describe that area as "that part of the country", and I think, is that really a part of my country? Are those areas a part of my country anymore?

First of all, America isn't your country and that will be proven beyond all doubt this year.

The same can be said for you.  We're all too divided now, and America is really more a Swiss Cheese nation than a unified one.

Did 9/11 divide America or unite it? You aren't very good at reading signs are you, Or, aren't you very good at accepting the signs that you are reading. Dude, its in the process of rapidly boiling down to Us vs Them with you being one of Them. Don't believe it, look at all the f-n polls? What's a blue billionaire worth to the country that made it possible for him/her to become a billionaire? So, can the Facebook dude afford to lose his American status? I don't know but we may find out soon enough. How about you, can you afford to lose your American status? I don't know but you could find out soon enough too. Eric and PB don't seem to care about it, so I'm going to assume that neither of Them care about losing their American status.

(01-28-2022, 02:30 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]

(01-26-2022, 11:26 AM)David Horn Wrote: [ -> ]

(01-25-2022, 04:34 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]

(01-25-2022, 03:30 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]

(01-24-2022, 11:26 AM)David Horn Wrote: [ -> ]FWIW, I'm noticing that everyday ordinary people are starting to question why we are still trying to be one country.  I haven't seen that in the past.  The real question, when does that become an issue for the majority (or at least, a large minority)?  If and when it does, the USA is nearing its end as a united cluster of diverse states, and what follows may be chaos.

I notice that watching a documentary about the native first peoples who lived in Arkansas, Texas, Louisiana and Oklahoma, and they describe that area as "that part of the country", and I think, is that really a part of my country? Are those areas a part of my country anymore?

First of all, America isn't your country and that will be proven beyond all doubt this year.

The same can be said for you.  We're all too divided now, and America is really more a Swiss Cheese nation than a unified one.

Did 9/11 divide America or unite it? You aren't very good at reading signs are you, Or, aren't you very good at accepting the signs that you are reading. Dude, its in the process of rapidly boiling down to Us vs Them with you being one of Them. Don't believe it, look at all the f-n polls? What's a blue billionaire worth to the country that made it possible for him/her to become a billionaire? So, can the Facebook dude afford to lose his American status? I don't know but we may find out soon enough. How about you, can you afford to lose your American status? I don't know but you could find out soon enough too. Eric and PB don't seem to care about it, so I'm going to assume that neither of Them care about losing their American status.

The country is going to hell. It is ruled by conspiracy theory. It has no notion of what the truth is, and does not care. This is a sick, sick society doomed at this point to failure.





I don't know now what is the media which is deceiving the people. Fox News? Alex Jones? Dr. Mercola? Trump's new channel? It is hard to tell. But the effect is cascading. America is going to hell. A new dark age is developing fast. Americans are just stupid.

Jones' creepy website is still available....
https://www.infowars.com/

(01-28-2022, 01:13 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]Bluer as in more darker in terms of peoples skin tone or bluer as in more Progressive minded and big government oriented/related like Washington DC? In Minnesota, the rural Democrats are dying off and the rural communities that were controlled by them for several decades are turning into ghost towns. As a result, the more economic minded and more American minded Republicans and their voters are taking over and the economy is becoming more economically diverse. So, are you familiar with what's going on between Buckhead and Atlanta these days? Buckhead has formally declared its independence and is in the process of breaking free from from Atlanta. I think it's a good gauge what's to come and what to expect as time goes on.

Rural areas have always been more conservative in every meaning of the word -- even during the labor movement period of the late 19th and early 20th centuries.  Dogma tends to set-in in more insular communities.  They may get infuriated, but they aren't empowered, unless they decide to bring out the guns.  Then it's open rebellion.  Nothing good comes from that.

The young don't believe it can happen, not even the rural young.  If it does, then the armies are aligned and battlelines drawn.  Youth WILL show up out of pure self-interest.

(01-28-2022, 02:30 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]

(01-26-2022, 11:26 AM)David Horn Wrote: [ -> ]

(01-25-2022, 04:34 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]

(01-25-2022, 03:30 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]

(01-24-2022, 11:26 AM)David Horn Wrote: [ -> ]FWIW, I'm noticing that everyday ordinary people are starting to question why we are still trying to be one country.  I haven't seen that in the past.  The real question, when does that become an issue for the majority (or at least, a large minority)?  If and when it does, the USA is nearing its end as a united cluster of diverse states, and what follows may be chaos.

I notice that watching a documentary about the native first peoples who lived in Arkansas, Texas, Louisiana and Oklahoma, and they describe that area as "that part of the country", and I think, is that really a part of my country? Are those areas a part of my country anymore?

First of all, America isn't your country and that will be proven beyond all doubt this year.

The same can be said for you.  We're all too divided now, and America is really more a Swiss Cheese nation than a unified one.Did 9/11 divide America or unite it?

Between September 11 and January 6 we had the twentieth anniversary of the 9/11 attack done by foreigners who hated America, the eightieth anniversary of the Pearl Harbor Attack led by a  criminal regime intent on conquering the Pacific Basin at least as far as the Big Island of Hawaii and perhaps Australia and New Zealand on the side. It was easy to hate those foreign enemies for their barbarity and contempt for what makes America what it is. Tolerance and freedom exist in America because of checks and balances and the rule of law, without which America becomes another Evil Empire.

On January 6, 2021, the people assaulting the ultimate check and balance  of a free and fair election that ousted a thoroughly-awful President who had already shown despotic tendencies, meanwhile showing contempt for the rule of law, tried to thwart what was usually a predictable event. Demonstrations would have been perfectly legal. A mass incursion into the Capitol building in an effort to disrupt the political process and negate an election was 100% unlawful.

Maybe you know nobody in your immediate area who contradict you.  Maybe you are as abrasive in person as you are in this Forum. Maybe everyone in your neighborhood knows not to discuss politics with you. Some of those people hold you in contempt for your political views. Maybe every liberal near you avoids you if possible.  It's easy to believe that nearly everybody you know at the least pretends to share your belief. 

Quote:You aren't very good at reading signs are you, Or, aren't you very good at accepting the signs that you are reading. Dude, its in the process of rapidly boiling down to Us vs Them with you being one of Them. Don't believe it, look at all the f-n polls? What's a blue billionaire worth to the country that made it possible for him/her to become a billionaire? So, can the Facebook dude afford to lose his American status? I don't know but we may find out soon enough. How about you, can you afford to lose your American status? I don't know but you could find out soon enough too. Eric and PB don't seem to care about it, so I'm going to assume that neither of Them care about losing their American status.

If being an American ever becomes shameful as it did at one time for Germans to identify with German nationality, such as after all those images of massacres and concentration camps became unavoidable, then I might regret being an American. It's up to us Americans to decide, should the choice be between fascism and freedom that we choose freedom.

(01-28-2022, 10:30 AM)David Horn Wrote: [ -> ]

(01-28-2022, 01:13 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]Bluer as in more darker in terms of peoples skin tone or bluer as in more Progressive minded and big government oriented/related like Washington DC? In Minnesota, the rural Democrats are dying off and the rural communities that were controlled by them for several decades are turning into ghost towns. As a result, the more economic minded and more American minded Republicans and their voters are taking over and the economy is becoming more economically diverse. So, are you familiar with what's going on between Buckhead and Atlanta these days? Buckhead has formally declared its independence and is in the process of breaking free from from Atlanta. I think it's a good gauge what's to come and what to expect as time goes on.

Rural areas have always been more conservative in every meaning of the word -- even during the labor movement period of the late 19th and early 20th centuries.  Dogma tends to set-in in more insular communities.  They may get infuriated, but they aren't empowered, unless they decide to bring out the guns.  Then it's open rebellion.  Nothing good comes from that.

The young don't believe it can happen, not even the rural young.  If it does, then the armies are aligned and battlelines drawn.  Youth WILL show up out of pure self-interest.

Rural areas have had their peasant uprisings in some times and places against rapacious aristocrats, but all of those ended when the aristocrats won because they could hire mercenaries to suppress the revolt. Once the revolt is over, survivors on the losing side face the iron maiden, breaking wheel, or stake to be executed with maximal agony. Such reflects the inherent cruelty of feudal elites. Mercifully we are past that.  Revolutions capable of overthrowing feudal elites come from the cities (France, 1788; China from the 1920's to 1949). The end of aristocratic power over peasants has usually appeared as the urban capitalists decide that they need to give the rural peasantry a stake in the system by abolishing serfdom and subdividing great estates to ensure that peasants become smallholders, Once they have some parcel of land that supports a better living than they had ever known, the smallholder farmers have an interest in keeping taxes low often at the expense of public services.  For their levels of income, smallholders are far more conservative in economics and politics than educated professionals, government employees, or especially the industrial proletariat. They see taxes only as a drain.   

Farmers have been prone to populist causes when farm incomes plummet, which may explain the times when rural areas could vote D to get farm subsidies and WPA projects that offered supplementary income that fended off economic distress.  Democrats may have been Senators from the Dakotas, Nebraska, Iowa, and Missouri until recently as reflections of this -- but that is over. As corporate farms squeeze out family farmers who are merely conservative, politics in such states go increasingly to the Right -- the extreme Right.

Know well that the agrarian elites of the Weimar Republic were heavily members of the reactionary, fascist-lite National People's Party that thwarted liberal trends in the rest of Germany and went Nazi when the Nazis showed willingness to be even harsher in suppressing the Left and such political and economic competition (the Jews, of course) to their reactionary agenda. In much of America that endures the loss of industrial jobs, agrarian elites become more powerful by default (just look at Ohio) and politics become more reactionary. Well-educated people and entrepreneurial types who might arrest the economic decline leave, and what remains is an economic nightmare of broken lives. Broken white people are prone to blame non-Christian and non-white minorities for their economic plight while they gravitate to heroin, meth, and fentanyl when alcohol isn't potent enough. Will there be enough jobs, however low-paying, in agriculture and food-processing to employ people who a few years ago fared well on industrial work in places like Dayton, Lima, Chillicothe, Mansfield, Toledo,  Akron, and Youngstown even if such jobs pay third-world compensation? The low pay is itself a pathology, but such is better than nothing. Meanwhile America's economic elites live like sultans.

I can easily imagine that much of the rural labor force in dairies, slaughterhouses, and the like will form its own proletariat that will foster union organization that challenges the primacy of the owners of workplaces that operate much like factories did in the 1920's. If we should get another reversion to right-wing government that gives people stupid enough to fall for it an economic meltdown as severe as that of 1929-1932 that America solves with another FDR-style leader. History can be messy. A country across the Atlantic endured a similar meltdown and ended up with an Antichrist as its leader... and we all know how that ended. 

In my opinion, the best indicator of real prosperity is how well the workers fare. All other display of prosperity is window-dressing for political and economic vileness.

David Horn has said the problem is we have no leaders. Myself, I blame Classic Xer. And all the people who think like him, which is apparently the majority. I do not let them off the hook.

(01-26-2022, 11:23 AM)David Horn Wrote: [ -> ]

(01-25-2022, 03:30 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]

(01-24-2022, 11:26 AM)David Horn Wrote: [ -> ]FWIW, I'm noticing that everyday ordinary people are starting to question why we are still trying to be one country.  I haven't seen that in the past.  The real question, when does that become an issue for the majority (or at least, a large minority)?  If and when it does, the USA is nearing its end as a united cluster of diverse states, and what follows may be chaos.

I notice that watching a documentary about the native first peoples who lived in Arkansas, Texas, Louisiana and Oklahoma, and they describe that area as "that part of the country", and I think, is that really a part of my country? Are those areas a part of my country anymore?

Yes, some places are decidedly Blue and others Red.  But many places are Purple, and I don't know how that plays long term.

The state I was born, raised, & still live in, Pennsylvania, is 'purple'. Philly & immediate surrounding area are 'blue', but once you head west past the Philly suburbs it turns 'red'. One of the lowest minimum wages ($7.25/hour) and some of the highest COVID infections (based on positivity rate) in our region of the country. I guess this is what 'Pennsyltucky' means. So if a national divorce happens, how does this all play out? Will states & counties be wiped in favour of a totally new structure? I guess towns and cities will indeed still exist as they are now and what will change is the legal structure.

(01-28-2022, 02:56 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]David Horn has said the problem is we have no leaders. Myself, I blame Classic Xer. And all the people who think like him, which is apparently the majority. I do not let them off the hook.

We have so to speak, two different sets of opposing leaders who have little in common in their agendas and who cannot make workable compromises. For one side it is all or nothing, or "my way or the highway".

(01-28-2022, 01:29 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]On January 6, 2021, the people assaulting the ultimate check and balance  of a free and fair election that ousted a thoroughly-awful President who had already shown despotic tendencies, meanwhile showing contempt for the rule of law, tried to thwart what was usually a predictable event. Demonstrations would have been perfectly legal. A mass incursion into the Capitol building in an effort to disrupt the political process and negate an election was 100% unlawful.

Maybe you know nobody in your immediate area who contradict you.  Maybe you are as abrasive in person as you are in this Forum. Maybe everyone in your neighborhood knows not to discuss politics with you. Some of those people hold you in contempt for your political views. Maybe every liberal near you avoids you if possible.  It's easy to believe that nearly everybody you know at the least pretends to share your belief. 


If being an American ever becomes shameful as it did at one time for Germans to identify with German nationality, such as after all those images of massacres and concentration camps became unavoidable, then I might regret being an American. It's up to us Americans to decide, should the choice be between fascism and freedom that we choose freedom.

Are you choosing freedom or still going along with fascism/communism these days? America is deciding or already has decided who (which side) stands for what these days.

(01-29-2022, 11:37 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]Are you choosing freedom or still going along with fascism/communism these days? America is deciding or already has decided who (which side) stands for what these days.

Looking at it by the willingness to solve problems against the save money by leaving them unsolved position, it seems rather clear.  The Republican position often involves death by Covid, prejudice, attacking democracy, ruining the environment, supporting a criminal and letting the infrastructure fail.  I know the problems are less to nonexistent in the rural areas, but they are clear enough in the more population intensive areas.

(01-28-2022, 02:56 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]David Horn has said the problem is we have no leaders. Myself, I blame Classic Xer. And all the people who think like him, which is apparently the majority. I do not let them off the hook.

I don't think C-Xer and his ideological kin are really a majority -- not anymore if they ever were.  I do think they are highly motivated out of fear more than anything else.  On the other hand, we have the extreme SJWs and redistributionists on the left, who have no clue about real life but feel free to spout platitudes and judge others, then go home to their upper middle-class homes and elite colleges.   

If the right holds a huge lead in whacknuttery, that doesn't make them wrong but strong -- not in the long run.  Unworkable ideas are unworkable, after all.  For example, creating an authoritarian state based on extreme libertarianism (at least among the followers) will devolve into chaos of internal power struggles.  That's not good either, but it's not popular either.  Once a critical mass of people decide that enough is enough, it will end.

(01-29-2022, 12:45 AM)nguyenivy Wrote: [ -> ]The state I was born, raised, & still live in, Pennsylvania, is 'purple'. Philly & immediate surrounding area are 'blue', but once you head west past the Philly suburbs it turns 'red'. One of the lowest minimum wages ($7.25/hour) and some of the highest COVID infections (based on positivity rate) in our region of the country. I guess this is what 'Pennsyltucky' means. So if a national divorce happens, how does this all play out? Will states & counties be wiped in favour of a totally new structure? I guess towns and cities will indeed still exist as they are now and what will change is the legal structure.

We're used to nation states, but an older and fully functional model existed when the city states ruled in Italy and much of Europe in general.  Modern nations grew from those roots.  Would something like that work today?  If so, it certainly wouldn't look like its Medieval predecessor, but some variant is feasible.

(01-30-2022, 06:46 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]

(01-29-2022, 11:37 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]Are you choosing freedom or still going along with fascism/communism these days? America is deciding or already has decided who (which side) stands for what these days.

Looking at it by the willingness to solve problems against the save money by leaving them unsolved position, it seems rather clear.  The Republican position often involves death by Covid, prejudice, attacking democracy, ruining the environment, supporting a criminal and letting the infrastructure fail.  I know the problems are less to nonexistent in the rural areas, but they are clear enough in the more population intensive areas.

The problems in rural America are different but no less pressing.  Here in Virginia, rural schools have no funding and dangerously outdated buildings (some on the verge of outright failure).  Worse, there are fewer work opportunities than in the past, and many jobs that do exist are dangerous and underpaid.  It's no wonder that rural areas are losing population.  I think those stresses are triggering a lot of the resentment politics.  

The lowest paid areas of my state voted to elect a venture capitalist with a net worth of half a Billion dollars to the governor's mansion by margins of 60% and greater.  Why would the oppressed (they are, whether they admit it or not) vote to elect a guy whose chosen profession is buying businesses, draining them of resource, saddling then with debt and, oh yeah, firing a large percentage of the workforce?

These folks need to aim their anger at the ones making their lives miserable, but those same forces have the narrative the poor want to hear.

(01-29-2022, 11:37 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]

(01-28-2022, 01:29 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]On January 6, 2021, the people assaulting the ultimate check and balance  of a free and fair election that ousted a thoroughly-awful President who had already shown despotic tendencies, meanwhile showing contempt for the rule of law, tried to thwart what was usually a predictable event. Demonstrations would have been perfectly legal. A mass incursion into the Capitol building in an effort to disrupt the political process and negate an election was 100% unlawful.

Maybe you know nobody in your immediate area who contradict you.  Maybe you are as abrasive in person as you are in this Forum. Maybe everyone in your neighborhood knows not to discuss politics with you. Some of those people hold you in contempt for your political views. Maybe every liberal near you avoids you if possible.  It's easy to believe that nearly everybody you know at the least pretends to share your belief. 


If being an American ever becomes shameful as it did at one time for Germans to identify with German nationality, such as after all those images of massacres and concentration camps became unavoidable, then I might regret being an American. It's up to us Americans to decide, should the choice be between fascism and freedom that we choose freedom.

Are you choosing freedom or still going along with fascism/communism these days? America is deciding or already has decided who (which side) stands for what these days.

I am for law and order, without which human rights and civil liberties are pipe dreams. We liberals have found this out the hard way, and we elected as President someone not so nice to offenders. That's Obama. Think about it: Obama is a very convincing and even seductive speaker. Can you imagine him calling for people to storm the capitol had he lost in 2012 fair and square?  


Freedom isn't lawlessness. Trump supported the lawless misconduct of people who stormed the Capitol.

I look forward to the day when conservatives recognize that the only problem with Obama was that he wasn't a conservative. America will be far better then. Surely you have seen my Eisenhower-Obama comparisons. Yes, Obama is going to prove more like one President than the others. He may have wanted to be the New FDR, but he ended up more like Ike. Eisenhower was a good President. I also hope that conservatives will start looking at the Michigan Plot and the Capitol Putsch and recognize both as horrible for their lawlessness alone.

I don't see any need for nationalizing everything in sight, and I do not have Lenin, Stalin, Mao, or Castro as a hero. I consider Marxism obsolete because Marx failed to recognize both the complexity of human nature and the potential for extreme abuse by bureaucratic elites who need own nothing to wield abusive power. (Marx held that ownership was the cause of all exploitation and abuse, which has proved tragically wrong. Add to this, capitalists needed to turn the proletariat into consumers fitting middle-class ways of consumption lest the proletariat rebel against capitalists.

Your generation, X, is starting to enter elderhood (Obama turned 60 last year), and much of it is clearly the "mature reactive" which has learned that crankiness is a losing proposition, settling scores is a low priority, that caution is a virtue, and that legal niceties and protocol are worth their inconvenience. Who is the loner -- you?

(01-28-2022, 02:56 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]David Horn has said the problem is we have no leaders. Myself, I blame Classic Xer. And all the people who think like him, which is apparently the majority. I do not let them off the hook.

Not to say that our leaders have not often let us down, or failed to step up too.

(01-30-2022, 01:36 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]

(01-29-2022, 11:37 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]

(01-28-2022, 01:29 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]On January 6, 2021, the people assaulting the ultimate check and balance  of a free and fair election that ousted a thoroughly-awful President who had already shown despotic tendencies, meanwhile showing contempt for the rule of law, tried to thwart what was usually a predictable event. Demonstrations would have been perfectly legal. A mass incursion into the Capitol building in an effort to disrupt the political process and negate an election was 100% unlawful.

Maybe you know nobody in your immediate area who contradict you.  Maybe you are as abrasive in person as you are in this Forum. Maybe everyone in your neighborhood knows not to discuss politics with you. Some of those people hold you in contempt for your political views. Maybe every liberal near you avoids you if possible.  It's easy to believe that nearly everybody you know at the least pretends to share your belief. 


If being an American ever becomes shameful as it did at one time for Germans to identify with German nationality, such as after all those images of massacres and concentration camps became unavoidable, then I might regret being an American. It's up to us Americans to decide, should the choice be between fascism and freedom that we choose freedom.

Are you choosing freedom or still going along with fascism/communism these days? America is deciding or already has decided who (which side) stands for what these days.

I am for law and order, without which human rights and civil liberties are pipe dreams. We liberals have found this out the hard way, and we elected as President someone not so nice to offenders. That's Obama. Think about it: Obama is a very convincing and even seductive speaker. Can you imagine him calling for people to storm the capitol had he lost in 2012 fair and square?  


Freedom isn't lawlessness. Trump supported the lawless misconduct of people who stormed the Capitol.

I look forward to the day when conservatives recognize that the only problem with Obama was that he wasn't a conservative. America will be far better then. Surely you have seen my Eisenhower-Obama comparisons. Yes, Obama is going to prove more like one President than the others. He may have wanted to be the New FDR, but he ended up more like Ike. Eisenhower was a good President. I also hope that conservatives will start looking at the Michigan Plot and the Capitol Putsch and recognize both as horrible just for their lawlessness.

I don't see any need for nationalizing everything in sight, and I do not have Lenin, Stalin, Mao, or Castro as a hero. I consider Marxism obsolete because he failed to recognize both the complexity of human nature and the potential for extreme abuse by bureaucrtic elites who need own nothing to wield abusive power.

Your generation, X, is starting (or will start-- says Eric the Green) to enter elderhood (Obama turned 60 last year), and much of it is clearly the "mature reactive" which has learned that crankiness is a losing proposition, settling scores is a low priority, that caution is a virtue, and that legal niceties and protocol are worth their inconvenience. Who is the loner -- you?

I agree. Good question for Mr. Classic X

I can say this: that unless they are so rich that they can buy company that pretends to like what it sees, cranks like Classic X'er end up terribly lonely irrespective of their location or family size. When their economic value decays due to either obsolescence of their skills, decline of underlying abilities, or some physical debility they get no respect. I recognize life as give-and-take, and that sane discourse (especially in politically-charged matters).